Hi. I converted to Catholicism over 20 years ago and I have never heard this: During Lent, Sundays are a "free" or Feast day, so if your choice was to give up something for Lent (e.g. wine/beer, it's okay to partake on Sundays. Is that true?

Greetings,
I think this myth was supported by a 1969 letter(I have heard of this letter, but never seen it) from some union of American Fishermen to Pope Paul VI when he was going to change the Friday abstinence rules. I heard that a group got together and wrote a letter of protests. Apparently it didn't help.
peace

Four-legged animals, eh.
Guess we could have chickenburgers on Friday of Lent then.

ruminary: Please supply us with a translation.

The RCC wishes it was the bulwark of truth. She fails the test of truth when eating meat on Friday was a mortal sin( see Catholic Encyclopedia 1917) and now it is no longer a mortal sin( talk to your priest). Yes, the blind guides( priests) lead the sheep into further levels of deception. Yes, the Muslim is correct when he states that Catholicism abrogates doctrine.

This encyclopedia entry has a mention about the 'first catechism'
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Didache

Anon,
Oh how brave you are, spouting your deception about Christ's TRUE CHURCH!
Lucifer, indeed, must be very proud!
No wonder you so fear to reveal your true name!
For the demons are often too afraid to reveal who they are!
Tê pix âtra agitâbit apud carnificem tuôque capitî inlûcêbit.

Heavens above, what dangers lurk in the comments of Jimmy's old posts! Read it all, with tears rolling down my cheeks.

This is a case for Indiana Jones! (hmm...I hope Dr. Jones is still able to walk without the aid of a cane. I hear Albino monks move like vampires.)

Bill, good catch. Nothing like citing page numbers and omitting the book title (/eyeroll).
Brian, thanks for the explanation, LOL.

Y'know, if the Catholic Church taught what this guy says it teaches, there wouldn't be a single Catholic in the world.

Brian,
LOL!

It all makes perfect sense to me now! Can't you poor deluded Papists see the connection? Mary...fish. Mary has four letters, and so does fish. I'm sure 666 is involved there, somewhere. TEACH me oh, wise, yet cowardly one! No doubt you left your name blank so the Jesuit assassins can't find you.

You cite "quotes" from "Roman Catholic Church". By chance are you quoting from Lorraine Boetner's piece of fiction titled "Roman Catholicism"?

Thank you for putting on display your ignorance of what the Catholic Church teaches. If you are going to criticize the Church, you should take the time to learn what the Church *actually* teaches, and why, instead of criticizing the straw-man church you have in your mind.

I love these old fish wife tales.

Among all of Orion's fascinatingly outrageous assertions, the one that struck me the most hilarious is that the Medieval Church sold "barrels of the Blood of Jesus"!
Yes, Orion, we descendants of the Medieval Church just LOVE Christ's Blood "ON TAP"!
Deliras!
Bene vertat Deus!

I notice that Orion didn't offer any evidence to back up his bilge.

The Medieval church was rather like a major business and one that enjoyed a monopoly at that. In many ways it was the Standard Oil of the Medieval Period and had its hand in everything. The Church invested its monies in many industries, among these the fishing fleets. Requiring ("suggesting") that parishioners eat fish on fridays ensured a steady demand for salted fish all over Europe and fit right in with their monopololistic practices. These are the same guys who sold (several forests worth of) slivers of the True Cross, barrels of the Blood of Jesus, various body parts of martyers, and papal indulgences.

I, of course, don't believe in the infallibility of one laymen's interpretation of scripture. I am merely trying to illustrate how the circular reasoning of "Sola Scriptura", as put forth by Protestants, rapidly deteriorates into moral anarchy, with every John Doe setting himself up as having the the final word on the interpretation of Scripture.

For those unfamiliar with the concept, Esau's 1:13 PM and David B's 1:14 PM posts are examples of L-O-G-I-C.

My question is this:
If we are all 'priests,' where does Micky come off knocking OUR interpretation of the Bible? Do we not have just as much a share in the priesthood as Micky?
Therefore, do we not have right to intrepret Sacred Scripture and conclude what we will?
According to YOUR interpretation, Micky, we, as 'priests,' don't have to believe your interpretation. See ya.

Michael John Priewe:
Can you kindly speak/write in comprehensible English???
Your babbling is killing me!
Among so many other outrageous antics on your part, you are attributing certain questions to the wrong people as well as misquoting what was actually asked/said.
As for my original questions, here's a suggestion:
1. Go to my posts.
2. Wherever you see this "?"; that means it's a question.
3. Also, you may want to take notice of statements where I post a challenge to you.
4. Refute these accordingly if you can.
By the way, if you truly want, we can certainly go to the Greek for Scripture passages if you are actually capable of this.

Someone needs to teach Micky how to discover the author of the combox post.

Michael, don't play obtuse. Your post responds to one by Inocencio.
Guess you'll do anything other than admit that you can't answer THE question: Show me where it says in Scripture that the Bible is the sole authority.
btw, that makes 7 times asking you. Quite an appropriate number, don't you think?

Germoniet, your prior post is looking righter and righter.

"Er what were your original questions???"
I didn't post that. Esau did.

SUBJECT:UNLESS you think his death atonement not enough.
To Bill concerning-WHERE is Priest mentioned concernin this?
"Notice the Parallel:
If there’s a dispute, you must take 2 or 3 witness with you; that on the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, every word may stand; and you must take it to that appointed priest or judge that God has appointed for that time and if the individuals refuse to hear and obey the judgment of the priest and judge, they are to be put to death."
Maybe here below in 1 Timothy 5:19 (No priest mentioned - because no priest needed any more becasue Chirst made th ultimate sacrifice. And thru it we all are made priests free to enter into the holy of holies.Phillips: “But you are God’s ‘chosen generation’, his ‘royal priesthood’, his ‘holy nation’, his ‘peculiar people’—all the old titles of God’s people now belong to you. …In the past you were not ‘a people’ at all: now you are the people of God.”
These words of 1 Peter 2:9,10 are quoted by Peter from Ex. 19:5,6; Deut. 7:6; Hosea 1:10 and 2:23, and were first applied to the nation of Israel, who were chosen at the time to be a special possession, a holy people, a kingdom of priests, etc. But, with the death of Jesus Christ and the establishment of the Christian congregation, these verses no longer applied to “fleshly Israel” but instead to “spiritual Israel,” which is also referred to as “the Israel of God,” made up of both Jews and gentiles, who made up the early Christian congregation.
UNLESS you think his death atonement not enough.
1 Timothy 5
1Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
3Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7Give the people these instructions, too, so that no one may be open to blame. 8If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
9No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband,[a] 10and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.
11As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
16If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.
17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,"[b] and "The worker deserves his wages."[c] 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

Mary Kay
here is your comments earlier bout "the Msytery:
Mary Kay | Jan 26, 2007 8:20:40 AM
If I may offer a few Scriptual references for you to reconcile with your understanding.
Eph 3:8-10"To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places."
The Church even makes known the wisdom of God to the angels. What is the great Mystery?
Eph 5:31-32 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church"
Well Mary Kay
to Understand and not take a blind stab in the dark at the msytery let's examine the WHOLE chapter of: especiallly after verse 10
it clearly refers yes thru the church YET Christ alone by faith (mystery over)
ANd the glory in the church is how we glorify Christ thru living as an example to his word, the truth!
11according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
Ephesians 3
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—
2Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. 8Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
20Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

What question? What question indeed.
Michael, I have asked you 5 times in this thread, that's five, count 'em F-I-V-E times to show me where in the Bible it says that the Bible is the sole authority. That makes 6 times asking you.

We are dealing with someone who is dishonest. I'm done.

what question? One at a time.

The Greek word "petra" has a feminine ending. Therefore, it cannot be used for a man's name. Hence the word "petros", which has a masculine ending. In the original Aramaic(the language which our Lord and His apostles spoke), the word "kepha" appears in both places. ("You are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build My Church"). When St. Matthew translated our Lord's words into Greek, he translated the first "kepha" with a feminine ending for the ordinary word for "rock", and with a masculine ending for a man's name.
Now, are you *ever* going to get around to answering my and Mary Kay's questions?

to Esau
Michael,
Before He ascended into Heaven, Jesus named Simon Peter the Rock "on which I shall build My Church". The Apostles were bishops of the Church, with Peter as their head. THEY wrote the NT, so how can you say the Church existed only AFTER the NT was written?
Yes Christ would build HIS church. (his-ownership) THe truth to which the church (the people/any believers not a buidling) answers.
So the Church answer fully to Christ any thing other than the truth is a lie.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The Bible tells us what the gospel is in 1 Cor. 15:1-4,
Now I make known to you brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."
Romans 10:9-10, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
simple eh?
Let's look at the scripture you refer to:
"What is the rock in Matthew 16:18?"
Answer: The debate rages over whether “the rock” on which Christ will build His church is Peter, or Peter’s confession that Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the Living God” (Matthew 16:16). In all honesty, there is no way for us to be 100% sure which view is correct. The grammatical construction allows for either view. It is our view Jesus was declaring that Peter would be the “rock” on which He would build His church. Jesus appears to be using a play on words. “You are Peter (petros) and on this rock (petra) I will build my church.” Since Peter’s name means rock, and Jesus is going to build His church on a rock – it appears that Christ is linking the two together. God used Peter greatly in the foundation of the church. It was Peter who first proclaimed the Gospel on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:14-47). Peter was also the first to take the Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10:1-48). In a sense, Peter was the rock “foundation” of the church.
Many argue vehemently against the concept that Jesus was declaring Peter to be the rock. While some of these alternate interpretations are indeed plausible, they are motivated, at least in part, by a faulty assumption. The faulty assumption is that if Peter is the rock of Matthew 16:18, this makes the Roman Catholic Church the one true church. Admittedly, the Roman Catholic Church uses this very argument. On the contrary, Peter being the rock in Matthew 16:18 is meaningless in giving the Roman Catholic Church any authority. Scripture nowhere records Peter being in Rome. Scripture nowhere describes Peter as being supreme over the other apostles. The New Testament does not describe Peter as being “all authoritative leader” of the early Christian church. Peter was not the first pope, and Peter did not start the Roman Catholic Church. The origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Peter, or any other apostle. If Peter truly was the founder of the Roman Catholic Church, it would be in full agreement with what Peter taught (Acts chapter 2, 1 Peter, 2 Peter).
A biblical pun of serious intent is found in Matthew 16.18:
"Thou art Peter [Greek Πετρος, Petros], and upon this rock [Greek πετρα, petra] I will build my church."
(pun on the double meaning of petros/Petros: in the first part of the sentence the word appears to stand for a personal name, but in the second, petra ("rock") makes the listener reevaluate the first petros as its second meaning, "stone").

By the way, my Esau | Jan 26, 2007 10:57:18 AM post above is a re-post since I have yet to have an opponent answer each of my questions here and refute the various points as I've laid them out.
So far, the only answer I seem to be getting is: "I believe the Bible is the Word of God because the Bible tells me so!"
This neglects the fact that it was due to the Authority of the Church, which Jesus established Himself, that this came to be so:
The paradigm of 1st Cen. Christianity was a Visible & Authoratative Church established by Jesus Christ, Commisioned with Divine Authority: To Preach, Teach & Gaurd the Truth. From Scripture, it is seen that all Christians were bound to adhere to this Visible & Authoratative Church with the consequences of condemnation for refusal to submit.
Thus, the Church is the "Pillar & Bulwark of Saving Truth" as proclaimed in 1 Tm 3:15.
In Matthew 18:16-17
Mt:18:16: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mt:18:17: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
This has parallels with the Old Israel living authority in Dt 17:6, 8-12 and, in fact, the same language in Mt 18:16-17 is used Dt 17:6, 8-12:
6 By the mouth of two or three witnesses shall he die that is to be slain. Let no man be
put to death, when only one beareth witness against him.
7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to kill him, and afterwards the hands
of the rest of the people: that thou mayst take away the evil out of the midst of thee.
8 ¶ If thou perceive that there be among you a hard and doubtful matter in judgment
between blood and blood, cause and cause, leprosy and leprosy: and thou see that the
words of the judges within thy gates do vary: arise, and go up to the place, which the
Lord thy God shall choose.
9 And thou shalt come to the priests of the Levitical race, and to the judge, that shall be
at that time: and thou shalt ask of them, and they shall shew thee the truth of the
judgment.
10 And thou shalt do whatsoever they shall say, that preside in the place, which the Lord
shall choose, and what they shall teach thee,
11 According to his law; and thou shalt follow their sentence: neither shalt thou decline
to the right hand nor to the left hand.
12 But he that will be proud, and refuse to obey the commandment of the priest, who
ministereth at that time to the Lord thy God, and the decree of the judge, that man shall
die, and thou shalt take away the evil from Israel:
Notice the Parallel:
If there’s a dispute, you must take 2 or 3 witness with you; that on the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, every word may stand; and you must take it to that appointed priest or judge that God has appointed for that time and if the individuals refuse to hear and obey the judgment of the priest and judge, they are to be put to death.
Hence, the Church is the New Israel, and, accordingly, it becomes truly fitting that the New Testament fulfillment has a living authority here on earth for the people of God to guide the people of God, which is the Church, 'the pillar and ground of the Truth' (1 Tm 3:15) just as in the old testament “type”, there was a living authority to guide the Old Testament people of God.

Don't hold you breath waiting for an answer, David B.; he has yet to answer the questions Mary Kay and I asked him.

Posted by: Germoniet | Jan 26, 2007 11:56:43 AM
Again, answer my original questions.
As for now, it seems you're unable to not only answer them but write in simple English!
Er what were your original questions???
if I got any simplier than 8th grade would that help...because I answer one and the answer is ignored and 20 more questions are thrown out...(a neat adversion to answered question for where there is no reply...
Simply this:
Can we agree from scripture that the truth is NOT the CHurch but Christ?

second while the Church canonized does not place it above
Again, and again, if that's the case then why do you consider the Bible your sole authority?
For all you know, the books chosen by the Church as Scripture are as faulty and from demons as you have claimed the Church to be.
You underplay the fact that the Church had to exist in order to decide which books belonged in the Bible from those that did not.
Thus, the Church certainly preceded what we had come to know as Scripture (i.e., the Bible)!

"posint"?
"First is er..."?

Michael,
Before He ascended into Heaven, Jesus named Simon Peter the Rock "on which I shall build My Church". The Apostles were bishops of the Church, with Peter as their head. THEY wrote the NT, so how can you say the Church existed only AFTER the NT was written?

I note your cut and paste form other and the tangled web you make a of a simple gospel.
huh???
Again, answer my original questions.
As for now, it seems you're unable to not only answer them but write in simple English!

Check out MJP's email address. 'Nuff said, right? :-)

I duly noted the coward here using my name over and over when posint to confuse all.
"The Church preceded Scripture and, in fact, it’s the Church that decided what books were to be included in the bible."
this is two part.
First is er when you say Church you mean what?
because last I checked the OLD testament was written a wee bit before the Catholic Church. And all the events in NEw testament again before the Church.
Remember the whole word (Christ) existed long before any men. Remmeber the alpha & the omega?
second while the Church canonized does not place it above as with my example of SIR newton.
Once again your whole rambling contains misquote and proof texting.And hearsay.

Michael, it's not more questions, but the same question: Show me in the Bible where it says that the Bible is the sole authority.
As for not explaining, it's unclear what your question is. You simply present Scripture and say, "Okay, explain it." However, I don't know what aspect you want explained. First you sound as if saying the Church forbids marriage, then your 11:21 post says something about not forbidding marriage and service positions. Could you be a little more precise in your question?

Michael John,
Sorry to chime in so late on such an invigorating discussion, but I just couldn't help myself.
You say in regards to the authorship of the Bible:
"God is the author
As dicated to men (as earlier stated long before the Catholic church AND they were Jewish primarily -written in Hebrew, Aramaic & Greek)"
Well, the New Testament, which is what is being used and quoted in this debate, was most certainly not written by Jews. The writers were Christians--the fufillment of their former relgion, Judaism. These Christians lived together in various communities throughout the world and many received instruction throught the epistles of St. Paul and the rest of the Apostles who went about the world spreading the Good News. Disagreements in the early Church, regarding doctrine and practice (like circumcision of converts) were brought to Jersusalem to be discussed among the Apostles and St. Peter, who functions under the authority given to him by Christ to bind and loosen. This is the earliest Church and, although the term "Catholic" was not being used at the time, we have in the new testament the earliest activities of Christ's Church--now known as the Roman Catholic Church. It is this Church, the true believers in Christ Jesus, whose leaders promulgated the Holy Bible.
Since you are a former Catholic, I imagine you are familier with all of this; however you seem to be arguing from the perspective that the Catholic Church was formed much later than the events recorded in Acts or Paul's epistles. The authority of the Church has existed since the time of Christ and will remain untill His second comming.
I will pray that you "wake up" once again and return home to Rome.

"PS for 2 Tim 1:7 nice misquote." I quoted it verbatim.

Maybe it's just me, but MJP's 11:23 post seems to be unintelligible. SpellCheck might help.

"note I do not duck any..."
Okay. Since I somehow missed your answers, please tell us again:
1)Where does it say in the Bible that I have to show you where it says in the Bible?
2) Where it says in the Bible that the Bible is the sole authority?

Your fallacy in thinking is this:
Because the CHurch acknowlege the Truth in the Word they are above it.
When it was the truth long before the Catholic CHurch acknowledge it as truth. IN other words it was the truth long before whether or not the Catholic church said so.
Example is that just because Sir Newton acknowledge the law of gravity, did make it suddenly true or to suddenly start working. It was merely him discovering an already working law in the universe. (Which by the way is also a created physical truth & law of GOD)
AND because he "canonized" that fact does not permit him to overide that law or negate it with his own doctrine of law. (as the Catholic church so arrogantly does)AND if Newton had renigged on his statments it would not mean that law is suddenly obsoleted.
So the Church acknoeledge does not release it from being under it the truth or reponsible to it. AS you stated scripture "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." and if they did fall away does mean the truth is voided suddenly.

I note your cut and paste form other and the tangled web you make a of a simple gospel.
I did cut and paste too however it was the Word not some other doctrine.
Other doctrine and Church tradition is wonderful IF it matches scripture. (Example the traditon Coupled with the truth (word) does not forbid marriage
as the Catholic church does with any in service positons.
1 tim 1:4
PS for 2 Tim 1:7 nice misquote
note I do not duck any in fact I give evidence from scripture then I get no explaining your way out just more questions & question. Also I list my whole true name.