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Outside the Church There is No Salvation

Jimmy Akin recetly wrote a post about homosexuality and the priesthood. An interesting tangential argument ensued in the comments. The basic gist is that there was some debate as to whether Protestants are saved or not. I say they are, others disagre...

Off topic isn't always a bad thing. When comments have gone off topic at my blog some of the most fascinating conversations I've ever participated in have happened. On the other had, I did suggest that Jimmy address this topic in a new post.

Of course, what it means to attain salvation OUTSIDE the Church is another question altogether. I would say that it indicates that salvation cannot be attained independent of the means given to mankind by the Church (after recieving them from Christ.)
Example: An infant of Methodist parentage is baptized. Two weeks later, the child is killed in a car accident. I would say that salvation is a pretty safe bet in that case. While the child was not a member of any parish or diocese in the Church, and could not be considered a practicing Catholic by any common sense definition, it nevertheless attained salvation by a Sacrament of the Church. Others may be lead to an imperfect communion with Christ through the Bible, promulgated by the Church.
In short, all a soul needs for salvation is to be free of mortal and original sin. While all saving grace is given by the Church, having recieved it from God, there are methods of getting that grace that would not involve being a practicing Catholic.
To cut off arguments that a Protestant sins mortally by implicitly denying the Church through their lack of membership, I would argue ignorance. Consider: how many Protestants these days actually know enough about the Catholic Church and her teachings to have sufficient knowledge? Probably not too many.
Anyone else feel that this combox has gotten a tad off the topic of the original post?

+J.M.J+
>>>Yesterday, someone suggested that contraception was somehow only part of the ordinary Magisterium and not exactly clearly defined??? Hello, Humanae Vitae!! Catholic Answers seems hardly Catholic at all.
Even if the Church's ban on contraception is only part of the ordinary Magisterium, it is still to be definitively held by all the faithful.
"We believe all that is contained in the word of God written or handed down, and that the Church proposes for belief as divinely revealed, whether by a solemn judgment or by the ordinary and universal magisterium." (from Pope Paul VI's _Credo of the People of God_)
In Jesu et Maria,

Funky,
I don't have sufficient time to look my reference in the catechism, but I have always been under the impression that it wasn't a sufficient knowledge of mortal vs. venial sin that was a necessary prerequisite for mortal sin, but sufficient knowledge that it was simply a sin. If they know it's a sin, and that sin also happens to be grave matter, then they have mortally sinned (presuming the other conditions are met). That is why Protestant teaching on once-saved-always-saved is so dangerous.
But the point you make is good. Schism from the Church is a mortal sin, only if, like other mortal sins, all three conditions are met. Sure it's grave matter, and maybe they act freely, but who can say that they really *know* either that it is a sin, or that the Catholic Church *is* the Church. Sure, some people's ignorance may be culpable, but surely not all. And in any case, I am the last person to know whether it is or not.

"John said to him, 'Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us.' But Jesus said, 'Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us.'" - Mark 9:38-40

"Catholic Theology would not prohibit him from being saved by the Grace of God."
Actually, Church teachings are bolder than that. Baptism, which is valid Sacrament even when performed by Protestants, changes the very nature of a person. He is "born again", that is, born of the Spirit. ALL Christians are baptisized into Christ's death and are destined to rise with Him. Of course, mortal sins can rob us of our inheritance. I would argue, though, that since most Protestants lack a proper understanding of mortal vs. benial sins, they fail to fulfill one or more of the three conditions of mortal sin (grave matter, sufficient reflection, full consent of the will).

Jay, I think the Catholic Church is more than just its baptized members. As Mark Shea puts it, "There is no salvation outside the Church. But we do not know what the extent of the Church is."
Or something like that. :)
I always found that a reasonable formulation.

So, let's say we have an American Protestant. He's never really been presented with the fullness of the Gospel (the only Catholics he knows are cafeteria-types). He thinks he understands what the Catholic Church teaches, but his knowledge is imperfect.
Since he has no reason to investigate further into the Catholic Church, as he has what seems to be a good understanding of the Church.
He goes on to try to fullfill God's will to the best of his ability, and truely tries to decern that will. If he ever ran into a Jimmy Akin or a Scott Hahn and sat down for an hour - he'd see the error of his ways and the gaps in his understanding. However, he doesn't. He dies first. Catholic Theology would not prohibit him from being saved by the Grace of God.
In the end, the Catholic Church will always say that one never knows what happens in the depths of a person's heart. Nor is there any shortage of Love and Grace from God. To say that an American Protestant (let alone a Muslim living in rural Saudi Arabia) can not get into heaven because they didn't go out of their way to study the Catholic Church is preposterous.

Funky,
The "Church" cannot be other than the Catholic Church. Rome had taught no salvation outside the Church before there were any other "Christian" Churches. Before the Great Schism (Orthodox split) and before the Protestant Reformation there really were not some 30,000 or more Christian churches, or denominations. These are all in disobedience against the One True Church founded by Christ Himself, the Catholic Church. To be anything but Catholic is to disobey Christ's only Church.
-Jay

BTW, I've gotten into a lot of arguments of this type (regarding "no salvation outside the Church" and how "Church" should be defined) with friends leaning toward ultra-traditionalism. I'd be very greatful if our apologetic host would chime in on this matter.

"Being 'baptized into Christ's death' is no assurance of final perseverance, though, Funk."
I didn't mean to imply it was, Tim. I meant that being Protestant is not, ipso facto, a sufficient condition for damnation. If I believed in invincible grace, I'd be a Calvinist, not a Catholic. ;)

I accept Lumen Gentium 15 and 16, although this encyclical appears to contradict the previous teachings that there is no salvation outside the Church.
In Lumen Genium, 15, it states that Muslims share our belief in God. Not so, they do not believe in the Trinity, the Triune God, therefore, their belief is in Allah (in a single person), not the Triune God of Christians. It is hard to imagine their salvation without a belief in the Trinity, in One God in Three Divine Persons.
Furthermore, LG,16 states that:
A) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.
This seems to exclude Protestants and Muslims and everyone who can read from salvation if they are not Catholic. Why? Because they do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church through their own fault!!! They can read (or look into it if they cannot read) and delve into the Truths of the Catholic Church on their own! Thus, intellectual blindness and an absence of faith does not seem to win you salvation.
B) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.
This seems to apply to those who cannot attain the knowledge, due to no access. This would include those we tried to convert long ago, because without Catholic Missionaries, they would not gain access to the faith.
C)But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.
This is PROTESTANISM and pagans for you. Deception of Satan keeps them from the True Church, the Catholic Church.
So, Lumen Gentium is no Get out of Jail Free Card!!!!!!

Being "baptized into Christ's death" is no assurance of final perseverance, though, Funk.
Pridefully rejecting revealed truth might damn anybody, even a Catholic.
Ignorance is another matter, however.

Heresy from both sides now.
:)

Evidently someone hasn't read the Catechism's definition of "Church". Protestants are part of the Mystical Body of Christ, like it or not. They can deny legitimate authority until they turn blue, but it won't damn them. They are baptized into Christ's death and just as "worthy" as the rest of us sinning slobs.

It is so nice to be appreciated for being a Traditional Catholic.
If you deny the Church's teaching (e.g. in Lumen Gentium 15 & 16), you are definitely not a traditional Catholic.

Thanks for the laughs folks. It is so nice to be appreciated for being a Traditional Catholic. I am highly opinionated, but certainly do not hail myself as any sort of Pope or authority. It is however, rather juvenile to suggest that I do. Also, as funny as Jordan presumes the notion that there is NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH to be, the "little Chinese boy" in 300 AD probably could have achieved Salvation, as unlike today's Protestants and disobedient Catholics, he probably did not have any access to the Church or its teachings. That is a very important caveat to the no Salvation outside the Church teaching.
Furthermore, I am used to being ridiculed by Modernist "Cafeteria Catholics" and Neo-cons, the likes of those so devoted to their Mini-magisterium in San Diego (Catholic Answers) for having a Faith long since abandoned by many of our Priests, Bishops, Catechists, Apologists, and the like.
I am a Latin Mass Catholic, Traditional to the core, however, I am no Schismatic, I do not and will not attend Masses by "independent" renegade priests or those of the Society of St. Pius X. I only go to Masses approved as a result of Ecclesia Dei, in union with Rome and the Holy Father (Institue of Christ the King www.institute-christ-king.org, Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter www.fssp.org). Funny thing, this is the fastest growing sector in the Church and the seminaries for these societies are filled to the brim. Perhaps priestly vocation shortages are due to a lack of orthodoxy in our seminaries. Just food for thought. The Church did not abandon its orthodoxy and strict teachings in the 1960's, though many of the faithful and our priests and nuns/brothers did. Laugh all you want, but Our Church is in crisis and don't always look for the "Catholic Answers" as they cannot always be found by looking West (San Diego).
Dominus Vobiscum,
Jay

I for one welcome our new Pope Jay. Hip Hip Hooray!
LOL!!

I absolutely agree, Jay. The very idea that a little chinese boy who died in 300 A.D. isn't going to hell is simply intolerable! How could Catholic Answers possibly justify having a loving God allow such a thing?!

I think that EWTN and Catholic Answers lack the orthodoxy needed to encourage listeners to return to our Catholic roots.
*LOL* :D

You would have to be a PWTN devotee to think Catholic Answers is conservative. While I greatly respect Mother Angelica and EWTN for its work, I think that EWTN and Catholic Answers lack the orthodoxy needed to encourage listeners to return to our Catholic roots. Too often I hear on Catholic Answers ways to live one's lifestyle within a Catholic framework, rather than ways to seriously ammend our lives in accordance with the true teachings of the Church, those entirely necessary for our Salvation. Now perhaps I ought to have a little lie down, whatever that means...

Jay, perhaps now would be a good time to have a little lie down.

Is Catholic Answers "truly Catholic"? If so, then why do they embrace Modernism? This week, I have heard about salvation outside the Church as not only a possibility, but even that Protestants who openly deny the Church could somehow achive salvation. I also heard about annulments as a Catholic form of divorce last week, that is, people calling in were married for a long time with children and wanted annulments?? Yesterday, someone suggested that contraception was somehow only part of the ordinary Magisterium and not exactly clearly defined??? Hello, Humanae Vitae!! Catholic Answers seems hardly Catholic at all.

I find it somewhat humorous that because Catholic Answers is truly Catholic, they're automatically labeled "conservative".
I wonder if they'd label a math teacher "conservative" if he insisted on not making up you own answers to multiplication tables.