Tim,
Without addressing the free will/grace issues raised there.
My point is that the very fact that someone has already died gives us enough knowledge that to pray for that person to be converted is to pray against what we already know.
This is because we KNOW that there's such a thing as a particular judgment. People who come after Joe know that his soul has already been judged. Therefore to pray for a favorable judgment is to deny that judgment has already taken place.
It is to act that as if the judgment were still up in the air, and that our prayers might have some effect to influence the outcome. But that is very much against what we know, and absurd.

I don't see the point of praying that someone is where they already are, which is basically what you're suggesting.
No, I am suggesting that we can pray for the desired outcome because we do not know the outcome, and because God (having no future or past) is able to apply any benefits of future events to the past.

To argue that God cannot apply future events to the past is to reduce God to a temporal deity and deny the possibility of the Immaculate Conception.

PHA,
I don't see the point of praying that someone is where they already are, which is basically what you're suggesting. For whatever our desires, that won't change the outcome which was already determined long before we began to pray. The presence or absence of prayer at that point makes no difference to the soul. Therefore it's clear that there can be no causality of that prayer, forseen or otherwise, because if the prayer effects the past, the absence of the prayer would likewise.
Breier

Breier-
Joe is dying.
As he is dying, God is aware of future prayers that will be said on his behalf.
God honors these future prayers by granting Joe an extra share of grace.
Joe responds to this grace (in his heart) by repenting of his sins and putting his faith in Christ.
Unbeknownst to anyone but God, Joe's soul is saved before he dies, the future prayers on his behalf being efficacious.
Where is this gross violation of reason?
Certainly there is no need to pray about circumstances that we already know have come out a certain way... THAT would be nonsense.
But to pray about some unknown aspect of the past need not be a contradiction.

Maureen,
Thanks for the clarification. Since prayer is talking with God, of course we can pray about all these issues. I'm focusing on the question of praying for the repose of the soul of someone else.
The Catholic instinct is to pray for the dead, becauase we assume charitably that most people, or at least most of the faithful, end up being saved. But that does not exclude classes of people we do not pray for in that way.
For example canonized saints. We pray to them, not for them.
Similarly baptized infants. We know they're in heaven, they don't need our prayers, or Masses.
There are plenty of other appropriate objects for our devotions and intercessions, I'm just saying that just as it would be incongruous to pray for the reponse of the soul of St. Theresa of Liseux, so too is it incongruous to pray for the repose of the soul of someone we know is either already in Heaven, or never going to heaven.
Of course we commend souls to God, etc., but that's in part our conversation with God in which we express our hopes and desires to him; even if those are unintentionally impossible or irrational, if made with good intent.
Universal prayers for the dead assume the particular exceptions I've already mentioned.
For example the Fatima prayer in the Rosary, "Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy." it not a prayer for those souls that are in Hell, but rather for those who are capable of receiving God's mercy.
Similarly, someone who has already died is in a different position to us than if they were still alive. They've moved from the Church militant to the Church suffering or the church triumphant, or they're out of the church entirely, and that makes a difference. It isn't right to pray for them as if they're in still in the Church militant, which they're not.
As for concerns about God being out of time, God's eternity is a great mystery. But what isn't a mystery is that past, present, and future exist in reality, and we live in time. What's past can not be changed, so when we know someone has died, we know that they're no longer in the state of wayfarers, they're in a different state. And therefore our prayers ought to reflect their different state.

Again: No one suggested praying as if the judgment had not occurred. It was suggested that you could pray that the desired outcome of that judgment actually occurred, since you do not know the outcome.
Your mistake is thinking that God has any "past" to change. Catholics do not believe in a temporally limited deity.

PHA,
My point is that even though you don't know the outcome of that judgment, that outcome has already been determined. The judgment has already taken place. The outcome has already taken place. The soul has already gone to destiny.
Since the soul has already gone to its eternal reward, it silly to pray as if it hadn't left yet.
The appropriate prayer would be for the repose of that soul, because we assume that people are saved, and if that person is already in heaven it can't hurt to pray for them anyhow.
However when we know that someone isn't in a state of being prayed for, it is inappropriate to pray for them.
And that's what we have with an upbaptized infant. A miscarried child is now currently either in heaven, or hell. Either state is one which excludes praying for the individual.
Therefore we *know* that the child is in a state where it can not be prayed for, even though we don't which where it is exactly.
And therefore my point stands.

we know that after someone dies they're either in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. There are no other options.
Because you do not know which, you would not be praying "against something we know."
to pray as if that soul is not already judged is to deny the particular judgment
No one suggested praying as if the judgment had not occurred. It was suggested that you could pray that the desired outcome of that judgment actually occurred, since you do not know the outcome.
The past has already happened. To say God can change the past.... Because it's the past, that's what the past means! It's fixed, it's *already happened*.
Your mistake is thinking that God has any "past" to change. Catholics do not believe in a temporally limited deity.

Also, Limbo is part of the magisterium, but it's never been made a dogma of any kind. Mostly, I think, because the theologians know we don't really understand what's going on.

On reflection, I may have been a little harsh to Breier. So let me say this.
Whenever we come to a place where we don't understand God's plan and it seems harsh to us, that's the part where we need to pray more for a soul in that situation, not just give up and tell others to quit wasting their time. Even JP2 said we don't really understand the whole Limbo situation.
So seeing as the chances are good that neither you nor I understand Limbo half as well as John Paul the Great, I feel that it's pretty safe to recommend prayer. We can always pray, and it's always useful.
On the other hand, any time you tell people not to pray because it's silly, you're going against Jesus' instructions to pray for all our needs, and his reassurance that we'll at least get fishes and eggs for our trouble, not snakes.
And that is why we pray for all the dead every Mass, not just "all the dead whom we're sure aren't in Hell or Limbo or whatever". It's what we do.

Maureen,
Of course we pray for the dead, because we believe in Purgatory. Prayer for the dead refers to prays for those in Purgatory, because that's where we assume most of us end up. We do not pray for the saints, nor do we pray for the damned. To pray for someone who has died is to assume that they're still in Purgatory.
That is why we don't pray for baptized infants who die, nor do we pray for canonized saints, whom we know are in heaven.
And if we know someone can't be in Purgatory, we know we can't pray for them.

Very basically,
A miscarried child is either in:
Heaven
Hell (including limbo)
Purgatory
If you know the child is in heaven, you can not pray for it.
If you know the child is in hell you can not pray for it.
If you know the child is in purgatory you can pray for it.
And we know that the child is in one of these three places
Therefore the only reason to pray for that child is if it is in Purgatory. But who would maintain that?
So the child is either in Heaven or Hell.
What exactly are you praying for, knowing that this child is either face to face with God or already eternally excluded from the beatific vision?
If that child is in heaven, no matter what you pray or don't pray it won't change that.
If that child is in hell, no matter what you pray or don't pray it won't change that.
There is nothing we can to change the past. Because it's the past, that's what the past means! It's fixed, it's *already happened*.

If you don't believe in prayer for the dead, you don't believe in the communion of the saints as the Church has understood it from the earliest days. Go look at the catacomb inscriptions.
Sigh. I'm usually having this argument with Protestants, not Catholics. In fact, we Catholics are known (or accused) for this stuff. So go reread the Catechism, Breier.
"By virtue of the 'communion of saints,' the Church commends the dead to God's mercy and offers her prayers, especially the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist, on their behalf."
We don't know where that baby went. We commend the child to God's mercy, as we commend all the dead, and we offer prayers on the baby's behalf, as we do for all the dead. And nobody who's Catholic, from the Pope on down, is going to say those prayers are useless or stupid.
It's what we do. It's what Our Lord told us to do. Get with the program.

Francis (and of course, your wife also)
I am sorry for your loss. God grant you peace and comfort you. Praying for you both and for your little one.
God Bless.

"'even God can not change the past
This statement assumes a temporally limited deity. Tim does not.'"
That statement assumes reality. The past has already happened. To say God can change the past is to say that God's providence can contradict itself.
It is to maintain that it is possible that the following are both true:
A happened.
A did not happen. (because God changed the past)
That is absurd, a contradiction of the very God given reason given to us to illuminate the truths of the Gospel, not obfuscate them by treating Providence as if it hasn't already disposed past things sweetly and due order.

"'To pray as if that person has not undergone the particular judgment is to pray against something we know.'
Not unless you were personally informed of the judgment's outcome."
Actually it is. Because we know that the particular judgment exists, we know that after someone dies they're either in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. There are no other options.
Therefore that only thing we don't know is which of those three that soul is in. We know the soul is in the afterlife and already judged.
Therefore to pray as if that soul is not already judged is to deny the particular judgment.
Further, in the case of miscarriages, that child is now in either Heaven, Hell, or Pugatory.
If in Heaven we need not pray for it.
If in Hell our prayers are of no effect.
And it's absurd to say that child is in Purgatory.
Therefore there are no circumstances in which we need, or should, pray for that child. This is why the funeral Mass for an unbaptized infant only prays for the parents, not the child.

To pray as if that person has not undergone the particular judgment is to pray against something we know.
Not unless you were personally informed of the judgment's outcome.
even God can not change the past
This statement assumes a temporally limited deity. Tim does not.

Tim-
We know that someone who has died has already undergone the particular judgment. To pray as if that person has not undergone the particular judgment is to pray against something we know.
The only circumstance where I could possibly see the prayer being retroactively applied is where you'd be praying for something you believed to be undetermined, not knowing that it had already been determined.
That does not apply here. Before anyone starts to pray, the state the infant's soul is irrevocably fixed. Whether or not you decide to pray will not change that. To say that "God is outside of time" is to solve nothing. God created a world, and that world is in time, and even God can not change the past.

This happened to my wife and I recently as well. Fortunately, we were able to determine that the child was a boy, which was a blessing. But since he had died before birth, we were not able to baptize him.
Our parish priest said a funeral Mass for our child (and us), and also was at the cemetery to pray with us when we buried him (my wife was 18 1/2 weeks, so we had a body to bury). This was a wonderful blessing. Our priest is convinced that our boy is in heaven; however, I'm going to continue to pray for him, as that is what the Church recommends.
One of the best blessings we received in this situation is that the day our son was born/died, the Gospel reading for the day was Matt 18:1-5, 10, 12-14, which explicitly states that "it is not the will of your heavenly Father that one of these little ones be lost".

Breir-
We have covered some of this ground before in previous posts.
Praying about specific, unknown aspects of past events (like the state of a soul at death) is not outside the pale and does not necessarily involve denying any doctrine.
Basically, God is not locked into a rigid sequence of events (being "outside" of time as we understand it) and can therefore choose to apply our future prayers to current events.

"You can ask God to bring your child's soul to be with him, either through your own desire for the child's baptism or through whatever other means God might choose."
This is impossible, because the soul is already with God, or it is not. Whether or not you decide to pray won't change where that soul is. And we know that the state of the soul is already irrevocably fixed, because as Catholics we believe in a particular judgment immediately after death. It seems to pray in this way is either to place the child in Purgatory, or to deny the particular judgment, both objectionable.

A miscarried baby doesn't need any Masses celebrated for them, for there's no conceivable situation in which it'd be in Purgatory. It doesn't need our help in that way. Either the child died in a state of sanctifying grace or it didn't. If it didn't it died in went to Limbo. If it did it went straight to heaven. In either place our prayers for them will not change their condition.

Does the soul of a miscarried baby go to heaven?

My apologies if my english is not tactful enough.
In my contry, a group of mothers in this same painful situation are asking for a law giving them the right to request the body, record his/her name in the Registro Civil, and bury them.
This treatment will be of great consolation for everyone involved.

I don't want to cut and paste this for fear of further distressing your reader, Jimmy, but this link has a beautiful prayer for both the parents and their child.
http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/miscarriag...
I join my prayers with yours, for this family and their dear little one.
God Bless.

Friends of mine had a miscarriage, and were told by their parish that funeral Masses were not done for miscarried babies, because then "they'd be doing them all the time, and wouldn't have time for anything else." This was from a very orthodox pro-life priest (Fr. Scalia, son of Justice Scalia). I don't know if they took it to the diocesan level. I refered them to the organization Michelle Arnold recommended for securing the rights of Catholics, but I don't know if they've contacted them yet.