The Brokeback Mountain Fiasco

by Jimmy Akin on December 16, 2005

in Film and TV

Controversy recently erupted over the U.S. bishops’ Office for Film and Broadcasting’s review and rating of the film Brokeback Mountain—a pro-homosexual "message" film known to many as "the gay cowboy movie."

THE REVIEW IS HERE.

Harry Forbes, the director of the OFB and the individual who reviewed the movie, gave it a gushing review with slight caveats thrown in as sops to those who would find the film objectionable.

He also gave it an "L" rating, which in OFB parlance means that it is suitable for a "limited adult audience, [this rating is for] films whose problematic content many adults would find troubling."

The rating that the film should have received was "O"—described by the USCCB website simply as "morally offensive."

When Forbes’s review hit the net, the controversy erupted, leading to stories like

THIS ONE ON LIFESITE NEWS.

The fiasco surrounding the review of Brokeback Mountain is simply the most egregious example of a problem that has been building for some time at the OFB.

When I first encountered their reviews a number of years ago, I was very impressed with how well they were done and how successfully they brought balanced Catholic sensibilities to the field of film criticism.

But in recent years the quality of the reviews and ratings has declined—to the point that I no longer consult them as they are of little use.

In the case of Brokeback Mountain, though, the OFB has gone beyond mere uselessness.

Let’s start with the issue of the rating.

Many films contain some morally objectionable content. This is unavoidable since filmmakers are sinners like everyone else. But the mere presence of morally objectionable content does not mean that a film as a whole is objectionable.

For example: Suppose that the latest Hugh Grant heterosexual romantic comedy featured a minor character who is gay (say, a friend of the female love interest in the film). And suppose the film tacitly approved of that character’s homosexual behavior.

The tacit approval given to homosexuality WOULD BE morally offensive by definition.

But because the character in question is a minor one this means that only part of the film is morally offensive, not the film as a whole. As a result, the film might deserve a rating other than "O" (assuming the rest of it wasn’t morally offensive).

But if the film, instead, was a homosexual romantic comedy where homosexuality was essential to the core of the film—and if it tacitly approved homosexuality—then the film as a whole would be morally offensive (even if it had other praiseworthy elements) and would deserve the "O" rating.

"O"s, in other words, don’t deal with minor elements in the film. They deal with the central core of the film.

Brokeback Mountain is not a homosexual romantic comedy. It’s a homosexual romantic tragedy. As a result, homosexual behavior is central to the theme of the film, and the fact that the film gives tacit approval to homosexual behavior (by Forbes’s own admission in the review) means that the film AS A WHOLE is morally offensive and deserves an "O" rating.

It may have elements that are not themselves offensive, but the film’s moral approval of its central theme (a long-term homosexual relationship) is morally offensive, making the movie itself offensive.

The fact that Forbes did not recognize this BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS fact set off the ensuing controversy.

In response to the controversy, on Friday, December 16th, the OFB unceremoniously changed the rating from "L" to "O."

Definitely a step in the right direction, but the way in which this was done left much to be desired. Specifically, the following text was appended to the review of Brokeback Mountain on the Catholic News Service site:

"Originally rated L (limited adult audience, films whose problematic content many adults would find troubling), ‘Brokeback Mountain’ has been reclassified O — morally offensive — by the USCCB Office for Film & Broadcasting. This has been done because the serious weight of the L rating — which restricts films in that category to those who can assess, from a Catholic perspective, the moral issues raised by a movie — is, unfortunately, misunderstood by many. Because there are some in this instance who are using the L rating to make it appear the church’s — or the USCCB’s — position on homosexuality is ambiguous, the classification has been revised specifically to address its moral content."

Note what is NOT being said here. They are NOT saying that the original rating was in error.

Instead, they are blaming the audience their film reviews are meant to serve for "misunderstanding" the L rating, which would still be the correct rating for the film if only it weren’t "misunderstood by many." So the film is NOT truly morally offensive, even though it is now being rated that way.

Further, the change is being made "because there are some in this instance who are using the L rating to make it appear that the church’s – or the USCCB’s – position on homosexuality is ambiguous."

In other words, other people are at fault and are wrongfully forcing the OFB to rate a film as morally offensive that really is not morally offensive.

This is a non-retraction retraction.

And it’s an erroneous one, because the film simply IS morally offensive—as is BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS from a basic knowledge of its contents. To see why, let’s turn to Forbes’s review.

As others have noted, the review simply gushes. Forbes confesses that he has been awaiting this film (it "arrives at last"), and he can barely restrain himself from heaping praise on it in numerous ways. Examples:

  • "‘Brokeback Mountain’ . . . arrives at last, and the film itself — a serious contemplation of loneliness and connection — belies the glib description [of being a gay cowboy love story]."
  • "While it is the story of an intimate relationship, more to the point it’s the relationship of two emotionally scarred souls."
  • [After one character has been separated from his homosexual paramour] "we see him crumple in despair as soon as he’s alone. The first human connection he’s had is coming to an end."
  • "It’s the emotional honesty of the story overall, and the portrayal of an unresolved relationship . . . that seems paramount."
  • "Director Ang Lee tells the story with a sure sense of time and place, and presents the narrative in a way that is more palatable than would have been thought possible. Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana’s screenplay uses virtually every scrap of information in Proulx’s story, which won a National Magazine Award, and expands it while remaining utterly true to the source."
  • "The performances are superb. Australian Ledger may be the one to beat at Oscar time, as his repressed manly stoicism masking great vulnerability is heartbreaking, and his Western accent sounds wonderfully authentic. Gyllenhaal is no less accomplished as the more demonstrative of the pair, while Williams and Hathaway (the latter, a far cry from ‘The Princess Diaries,’ giving her most mature work to date) are very fine."
  • "Looked at from the point of view of the need for love which everyone feels but few people can articulate, the plight of these guys is easy to understand while their way of dealing with it is likely to surprise and shock an audience."
  • "[T]he universal themes of love and loss ring true."

Despite the fact that he is in unmistakably enamored with the film, Forbes does throw in two mild caveats to appease those who would object to the film’s approval of homosexuality. The first caveat comes thirteen paragraphs into the twenty-one paragraph review:

"As the Catholic Church makes a distinction between homosexual orientation and activity, Ennis and Jack’s continuing physical relationship is morally problematic."

No note is made that the homosexual orientation itself is—in the words of the Catechism—"intrinsically disordered." Forbes’s review leaves one with the impression that the homosexual orientation may not itself be a source of concern and that only homosexual activity is "problematic."

A few paragraphs later, immediately before the content advisory at the end of the review, Forbes gives another caveat but immediately undercuts what mild force it has by giving his praise of the film the last word:

"While the actions taken by Ennis and Jack cannot be endorsed, the universal themes of love and loss ring true."

Also disturbing is Forbes’s attempt to downplay the fact that this is a pro-homosexual "message film." He argues:

"But the pain Jack and Ennis cause their families is not whitewashed. (The women are played with tremendous sympathy, not as shrill harridans.) It’s the emotional honesty of the story overall, and the portrayal of an unresolved relationship — which, by the way, ends in tragedy — that seems paramount."

This account seems intended to leave the reader with the impression that the pain caused to the two gay characters’ wives and children (they married women after they began their homosexual relationship) and the fact that their relationship ultimately ends tragically are supposed to detract from the idea that the film is broadcasting a message.

This is sheer spin. In fact, these elements are CRUCIAL to how the film hammers home its message. The story begins in 1963 and ends when one of the two cowboys is killed in what today would be called a "hate crime" for his homosexuality.

The unmistakable message that the filmmakers intend is thus:

"How sad that our culture was (and is) so ‘homophobic.’ If only people had been more accepting of homosexuality then Ennis and Jack wouldn’t have felt pressured into marrying women and having families. Their ongoing homosexual adultery wouldn’t have caused their wives pain. And they would have been cruelly mistreated and one brutally killed as a manifestation of the ‘homophobia’ that continues to plague our society today. So that things like this will never happen again, we should all learn a lesson from this that our society must come to embrace homosexuality as an equal, respectable alternative lifestyle."

In other words: The film’s core message is radically antithetical to Catholic teaching.

The fact that Forbes is so enamored with it, that he either misses or knowingly downplays the message aspect of it, that he treats Catholic teaching on homosexuality almost as an afterthought to how this film should be appraised, that he believes it to not really be morally offensive, and that he is willing to blame others for forcing him to call it morally offensive when it is not morally offensive in his opinion, all speak of the growing problem that has plagued the U.S. bishops’ film review service—and they speak poorly of Mr. Forbes’s capacity to do the job entrusted to him by the bishops.

The bottom line is that this film is not a "borderline case" where one could debate whether or not it is morally offensive. It is BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS that this one is morally offensive.

If Mr. Forbes cannot be counted upon to call a film morally offensive when it is as blindingly obvious as this one is then he does not have what it takes to do his job.

UPDATE: Late in the day on Friday the Catholic News Service site moved the non-retraction retraction to the top of the review to give it more prominence.

With the reclassification to "O," CNS also removed Harry Forbes’s byline from the review. It is not clear at this time whether this was to insulate Mr. Forbes from being individually identifiable and thus accountable for the review or whether it was because Mr. Forbes violently disagreed with the reclassification of the film as "O" and  no longer wished his name to be associated with the review.

At the time of this writing the byline reads "by Catholic News Service," indicating that Catholic News Service takes responsibility for the review.

Also, thanks to Mark Shea for posting the above review on his blog while TypePad was having technical difficulties.

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"You have no right to tell them yours is better..."
Has the First Amendment been repealed?
"...or to try and pass laws to meake them listen to you."
I thought that trying to get laws passed that you like was one of the principles of democracy.

Alysse,
There is nothing romantic about such filthy, disgusting behavior. I suppose if a similar story was written about a man who loved his wife so much, after she died, he lived with her coprse as he would if she were still living, it would be equally as romantic and acceptable? Take the Brokeback Mountain story, and exchange one of the guys with a horse. Would a beastial "love story" be just as romantic and acceptable?
Here's the problem with the liberal rhetoric regarding homosexuality. They have dumbed down the moral ethic to a "yum/yuck" principle. Homosexuality = Yum, and so therefore it is good. Necrophilia = Yuck, and so therefore is evil.
Personally, I'm waiting for a love story involving a pyronecrohomobeastopedophile. THAT'S romance!

"Brokeback Mountain is the most awesome western/romance that I ever saw." Stories about betraying one's spouse are SO romantic! Just ask anyone who has been betrayed by an unfaithful spouse.

Alysse, dear, you need to see more westerns/romances.

ok I don't have a problem with gay people it doesn't bother me like it does to other people. Now brokeback Mountain I loved it because it brought me back to the country were I was raised and seeing the two actors acting guy didn't bother me. Even if your acting or not acting it doesn't bother me because it's not my life to judge so I have no say in how people can live their lives. Brokeback Mountain is the most awsome western/romance that I ever saw.

Have a nice day from spain, we legalized gay marriage last year.
You fanatically imposed your views on all your countrymen, then.

BTW, you did NOT legalize "gay marriage". "Gay marriage" is an impossibility. Marriage is possible only between a man and a woman. Calling an arrangement a "marriage" doesn't make it one.

"I have read so many things here that are just untrue". Like?
"People who want to impose the rules and ideas of their faiths to others..." Who wants to do that? Some on this thread have tried to EXPLAIN their Faith, and DEFEND their Mother (the Church) from attack.

Hiden Troll was an expresion aimed to despise the ideas of who does not think the same than you. I have read so many things here that are just untrue... do you think that could be easy to come here and see all those comments in which who does not agree with the common idea of homosexuality is evil, then those are evil too?
Fanatism = Excessive intolerance of opposing views - fanaticism, zealotry
Fanatic = a person motivated by irrational entusiasm (as for a cause).
People who want to impose the rules and ideas of their faiths to others are by definition fanatic. Religious fanatism.
Sorry about my english, its not my mother tonge. Have a nice day from spain, we legalized gay marriage last year. The world still keeps moving, the dooms day still didnt come.
P.D.: Please, preise hard for me. :)

Hiden Troll was an expresion aimed to despise the ideas of who does not think the same than you. I have read so many things here that are just untrue... do you think that could be easy to come here and see all those comments in which who does not agree with the common idea of homosexuality is evil, then those are evil too?
Fanatism = Excessive intolerance of opposing views - fanaticism, zealotry
Fanatic = a person motivated by irrational entusiasm (as for a cause).
People who want to impose the rules and ideas of their faiths to others are by definition fanatic. Religious fanatism.
Sorry about my english, its not my mother tonge. Have a nice day from spain, we legalized gay marriage last year. The world still keeps moving, the dooms day still didnt come.
P.D.: Please, preise hard for me. :)

Hiden Troll was an expresion aimed to despise the ideas of who does not think the same than you. I have read so many things here that are just untrue... do you think that could be easy to come here and see all those comments in which who does not agree with the common idea of homosexuality is evil, then those are evil too?
Fanatism = Excessive intolerance of opposing views - fanaticism, zealotry
Fanatic = a person motivated by irrational entusiasm (as for a cause).
People who want to impose the rules and ideas of their faiths to others are by definition fanatic. Religious fanatism.
Sorry about my english, its not my mother tonge. Have a nice day from spain, we legalized gay marriage last year. The world still keeps moving, the dooms day still didnt come.
P.D.: Please, preise hard for me. :)

I'm so tired of anti-Catholic bigots.

So basically anytime a movie contains gay people and/or shows them as the sexual beings that they are, it is "propaganda". Funny, we don't go around labeling movies with heterosexual characters as "propaganda" films. I'm so tired of religious-right freaks.

In the last ten years, there have been, by my count, two critically acclaimed and recognized movies that dealt with pornography, and two critically acclaimed movies that dealt with pedophilia. "Boogie Nights" was raved by all the critics that Paul Thomas Anderson was the next Q. Tarantino, and the story is about the rise and fall of the porn industry from the inside; it had a mix of stories, both positive and negative portrayals. "Auto Focus" focused on the biography of Bob Crane (of TV's Hogans Heroes), whose life fell apart due to his addictions to pornography, and how it led to the disolution of his marriage, and ultimately his untimely death. "Happiness" by Todd Solondz had multiple story threads, a genuine dosage of "There's Something About Mary" juvenile humor, and a subplot about a pedophile. "L.I.E." came out as an indie film, I don't know much more about it except that supposedly Brian Cox was excellent in it.
Anyway, my point is, these movies came and went. And porn is more popular than ever. Exposure or not, nobody in Hollywood, not yet, wants to admit this. Sad.

In the last ten years, there have been, by my count, two critically acclaimed and recognized movies that dealt with pornography, and two critically acclaimed movies that dealt with pedophilia. "Boogie Nights" was raved by all the critics that Paul Thomas Anderson was the next Q. Tarantino, and the story is about the rise and fall of the porn industry from the inside; it had a mix of stories, both positive and negative portrayals. "Auto Focus" focused on the biography of Bob Crane (of TV's Hogans Heroes), whose life fell apart due to his addictions to pornography, and how it led to the disolution of his marriage, and ultimately his untimely death. "Happiness" by Todd Solondz had multiple story threads, a genuine dosage of "There's Something About Mary" juvenile humor, and a subplot about a pedophile. "L.I.E." came out as an indie film, I don't know much more about it except that supposedly Brian Cox was excellent in it.
Anyway, my point is, these movies came and went. And porn is more popular than ever. Exposure or not, nobody in Hollywood, not yet, wants to admit this. Sad.

Powerful testimony, T. Maranatha.

Dear Everyone:
I am the bishop of a small house church from the Christian Recovery mold. This essentially means that we practice the Faith from a Christian 12 Steps viewpoint. Our way of practicing the Faith is liturgical, but the core of what we believe and do is Recovery based. That means Admitting you have a problem, Believing that Jesus is the Son of God Whose Death and Resurrection can set you free and Confessing and Commiting your life to the Lord through Baptism, Reconciliation and Holy Communion.
Now, I am also a 51 year old Black woman from the inner city, who once did a press pass post for the Black Panthers at the International Women's Year Convention in 1977 because of my past involvements in student and civil rights. So, I think can say something about discrimination through racism and sexism. I think I can say something about grassroots Christianity from a liturgical view also.
May I add my viewpoint for what it's worth?
Last year, I actually experienced two popular "gay" stories: "Rent" and "Brokeback Mountain." I thought the singing in "Rent" was well done and the dancing moves were equally pleasing. (I do African Dance). But frankly, I sat through the film amazed at how immoral the characters were. The one song, "Today For You, Tomorrow for Me," which centered around animal cruelty kind went along with with "La Vie Boheme." That message was:" Do what you want will be the whole of the law and anyone who says that sex in any form is wrong is mean spirited, evil and controlling.
The same sex kissing made me feel sick. Sorry if that offends someone, but it did. Yet, that didn't bother me as much as the message of the film. I left wondering how the dog that died offscreen in the musical felt about these "values." What about the parents in the story who loved their children but didn't agree with their lifestyles? Talk about tap dancing your way to Hell. Whoo-hoo!
But just when I thought we had enough of the "ain't it great to be gay" yack-yack. Here comes the love story of two cowboys who loved more than their horses. No music in this one. Pity. I would have just killed to see the male leads belting out "Take Me or Leave Me."
NOT!
Anyway, I was more than shocked by this movie. Not because they showed gays in a positive light. "Rent" did that with TWO, count them TWO homosexual couples and their stories. No, actually I think "Brokeback Mountain" is a typical piece of woman hating propaganda that supports the agenda of anti-female, anti-family, anti-children forces in this world. You want to talk about HATE, well I'd like to nominate this film for Hate Movie of the year. Why? Well, it bothers me a LOT when someone makes a film that so deliberately distorts the truth in order to "make a point." To lie about the real nature of a subject when it is connected with the pain of other living people it evil and hateful.
These men lie, cheat and sneak to be "happy." Screw the wives and the kids so they could screw each other. That's "beautiful?" Would it have been a hate crime for the wives and kids to have shot one of the men for "cheating"? Or do homosexuals get a free pass on adultery? The fact that no one wants to address that issue speaks volumes to the idea that no one cares about the women, family and kids in the story. To Hell with them, I have the RIGHT to be happy and if that hurts you, oh well.
This reminds me of "Birth of A Nation." Was the ride of the KKK done well? Yes. Was it stirring? Yeah, unless you were a Black person! I felt the same way about "Gone With The Wind." Both movies were pure poison because they LIED about the way things were concerning slavery and the aftermath.
To me the "nicer" propaganda is, the more deadly it is. It's like offering me a glass of lemonade with arsenic stirred in. I won't notice that I'm being poisoned because it tastes SO good. But guess what? I'll still end up dead anyway! It's the same with movies that LIE with beauty. Your soul will end up poisoned because you will drink in the LIES along with the lovely music and the so nice performances. I don't care how pretty the dresses were in "Gone With The Wind." I don't care how well they rode the horses in "Birth of A Nation", it was still pretty poison and it fueled evil.
"Brokeback Mountain" is very well done. The actors do a good job. The music is nice and the scenery is gorgeous. Wow, it made me glad that I live out West nowadays. BUT-does it tell the truth? Are homosexual relationships like the ones in the films? When you cheat on your spouses because you love someone else is it the best response to "accept" the situation with the grace and dignity that the film tries to promote?
Hmmm.
NOT!
1) The story lies about the pain "switching" causes in real life to the "other" spouse.
My best friend fell in love with a guy. He was a practicing homosexual. She didn't know that. He kept trying to get her in bed. I guess he was trying to become straight or a metrosexual or a bisexual-whatever. But as she was a good Catholic she said no, let's wait until we get married. Well, it seems that never was to be because he got AIDS and died a year after contracting the disease. She felt betrayed and lied to by this man. She also felt relief that she didn't sleep with him. How nice that this man who was "just trying to be himself" almost murdered my friend!
I wonder why this "soaring" movie didn't bring in the fact that there are many women who got sick because their switchback partners didn't tell them they swung both ways? Is that beautiful? Is that lyrical? My friend loved this man! Where's a portrait of HER pain? Does anyone care? She's just as real as that jerk who almost gave her AIDS. Yet, everyone at his funeral focused on the tragedy of his death and how he fought for acceptance of his lifestyle. My friend kept her mouth shut because she didn't want to cause any pain or shame for his family. But she still hurts from this.
2) The movie lies about the real reason most people "become" gay
You try counseling the many men and women who struggle with homosexuality and you'll see a pattern of sexual abuse and rape in their young lives. It is interesting to me that so many of them have this type of background. It's the reason why so many of them ARE gay. They come in telling me how they were born that way, and they ALWAYS loved men or women or whatever and then when you push it you find sexual abuse in the background. One street guy I had in counseling actually once took a course of steroids to alter himself so he go under the knife and become a woman. He swore up and down he was just "born that way." I thought differently, but in our church you have to come to your point of Admission on your own. People are welcome to challenge you, but not push the issue to the point of damage. So, he'd say, "I was born gay" and I would simply say, "Are you sure?"
One day, after living with me for two years, he told me about what his uncle did to him at an early age. Then I found out from the other people in his family that he was dressed and treated like a girl. Then I heard about the gang rape that left his butt torn up for years afterwards. Etc, etc, etc. As he healed and forgave the people who hurt him, including his own father, it was interesting to see him gradually become less interested in men and more interested in women.
I didn't lecture him or browbeat him at all. I just loved him and let him stay with us in our recovery house. He found his own way to healing.
Why doesn't someone tell HIS story? Or better yet, why doesn't someone tell the story behind this surge in homosexuality? If we would stop RAPING our babies we wouldn't have the sexual confusion we have now. But, since Hollywood sponsors so much pedophilia, God knows we wouldn't dare tell the truth on that one, would we?
The truth is that homosexuality is the direct result of child rape. If we would stop hiding the truth and deal, we would not have to have gay rights or gay marriage to accomodate the damage this sin has caused in the world. I find it interesting that whenever someone makes the correlation between abuse and homosexuality, the liberal media clams up and ignore the story. Why? Because they don't want to hear the truth that the alternative lifestyle exists because of the sins of the elders who murdered the souls of these children.
The day that someone does a major film on the porno/ pedophilia industry is the day that this nation will finally dump the trash they have embraced in the name of political correctness and embrace the truth of the Cross. I hope that happens soon because it is sickening to watch the desperate attempts of the world to brainwash our youth through the movie industry.
Even so, come soon Lord Jesus. We're drowning in our own manure and calling it death by art.
BT+

"being gay is just one evolutionary turn for humans"
And just how is that "turn" going to be passed on, pray tell?

being gay is just one evolutionary turn for humans, and like it or not, it takes up more of people's thoughts these days than reflections on anything divine.

Regarding the homosexual problem in the Catholic Church today, it must be noted that homosexuals were DELIBERATELY infiltrating seminaries as far back as the 1930's in order to corrupt the Church from within.
http://www.goodbyegoodmen.com/introduction.html

Amen, RLN.
Do people think that pedophilic Boy Scout leaders were made that way by taking the Scout Oath?
Target-rich atmosphere, indeed. Good for the Boy Scouts for drawing the line and sticking to it.
Maybe the Catholic seminaries could have aspiring priests recite an adapted version of the famous oath, which requires that scouts keep themselves morally "straight".

"Don't blame gays for the mess the Church created for itself."
The Church didn't create the pedophilia/predation problem. It seems to be a common misconception that the Catholic Church's "unfair and unrealistic" vow of chastity (or celibacy) somehow "causes" men to turn into predators. In fact these are people who were already that way, and found an easy target-rich atmosphere, and were able to go undetected. I say the church is more to blame for taking so long to become aware of and deal with the problem.

"Francis DS, when you say "hope you stay francis," do you mean you hope I keep reading JA.O, or that I continue "
I mean: welcome and "I hope you stay".

I would add two more points re: St. Paul.
1. The communities to whom Paul was writing had mostly had some personal internaction with him, and so were able to put his harsher comments into a broader context of his personality. Readers of combox posts aren't able to do that.
2. Paul was an apostle, and so when he said something was wrong, then it was just wrong. Not so with most of us-- if we want people to believe us, we have to convince them.
Finally, and as a summary of all I've said here, my basic point is that when someone accuses you of being hateful or a bigot, what does an angry response accomplish other than strengthening the accuser's suspicions?
I understand that my style is more soft-spoken than that of many. I would just caution you that the tone of a lot of the posts on this blog probably drive away people like me-- some of whom are probably seeking the Church.
I want to thank you all for the respectful hearing you've given me on this. I admit I was nervous that it wouldn't be that way.
francis

I would add two more points re: St. Paul.
1. The communities to whom Paul was writing had mostly had some personal internaction with him, and so were able to put his harsher comments into a broader context of his personality. Readers of combox posts aren't able to do that.
2. Paul was an apostle, and so when he said something was wrong, then it was just wrong. Not so with most of us-- if we want people to believe us, we have to convince them.
I want to thank you all for the respectful hearing you've given me on this. I admit I was nervous that it wouldn't be that way.
francis

I don't disagree with you in principle, Tim. But, as I documented above, what's been going on in this thread is basically the equivalent of Paul whipping out a can of emasculation every few paragraphs-- which he does not do.
As a credited contributor to the blog, Tim, you probably are in a better position to authoritatively say "this is absurd and out of line," without further explanation. But when your denunciation is just one of a half-dozen or more, it loses most of its rhetorical force, because rather than feeling authoritatively rebuked the "smackee" will just feel ganged-up on.
Soft(er) words, on most but not all occasions, are not just a matter of charity but also of effecctive apologetics.

francis,
I think your style is what you are comfortable with and that is a great thing.
The only point I wish to make Tim J. just made. There is a time for everything.
My approach is much different than yours. I thank you for your suggestions and I hope that you will jump in more often so we can see your approach in action. But if you choose not to keep us in your prayers.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

I think we should remember to be more Christ-like, which means to speak Truth with Grace.

francis-
St. Paul was certainly capable of great patience and sensitivity in dealing with those who disagreed with him, and yet, in the hurly-burly of bearing witness to the Truth, he often resorted to the sort of pithy verbal rebuke that you find disturbing.
This was especially true in his dealings with so-called Christians who sought to undermine the teaching of the apostles, whether by denying some truth, or by introducing empty novelties.
For instance, when Paul remarked that he wished that those who were so keen on circumcision would just go all the way and emasculate themselves!
Who could forget that?
I have often encountered comments on this blog that are so egregiously bad that they demand a sharp and clear rebuke, if only for the sake of those watching who may not know how bad they really are.
There is a time for a gentle statement of orthodoxy, and there is a time for the verbal smackdown.
Charity does not always mean soft words and patient resolve.

Francis DS, when you say "hope you stay francis," do you mean you hope I keep reading JA.O, or that I continue signing myself "francis," or both? At first I thought the latter, but maybe that was wrong. I'd be happy to call myself something else if you'd prefer.

francis --
I agree with your comments and viewpoints. You come across as being intelligent, articulate and fair. I think it is the only way to defend our Christian Faith. You've represented the Gospel well! God bless you!

I apologize for encroaching on your name.

As a sometime and old time poster on this list, and often using the sig "Francis", I wish to disambiguate myself from the "francis" that posted the above. I don't disagree with him. I'm just not him. Hope you stay francis, but I'm using "Francis DS" from now on.

Usually whether to call somebody out has to be decided based on your knowledge of the person-- if you suspect he understands the theoretical problems of his ideas but holds onto them because they're convenient for his lifestyle, or allow him to accommodate his human weakness, or something like that, he might need to be called to account. But that's only if you think he may be at the point where he'll have the courage, honesty, and strength to respond positively.
I don't feel competent to decide anything about the thoughts of previous posters. But if calling-out ceases to be rare, it ceases to be effective. This is true for two different reasons:
1. Whether successful or not, it usually has a powerful emotional effect, and thus is not quickly forgotten by the one called. Thus, if "calling out" fails once on a given person, it is unlikely to succeed, if tried again, for quite some time.
2. When done in a public forum, such as this one, the cumulative effect of multiple calling-outs conveys a message antithetical to Christian charity.
I agree that it's easy to respond in anger when someone attacks the Church-- our love for Her is so intimately tied to our love for our Lord. But also tied to our love of the Lord must be our love for our neighbors. In fact, we do not love the Church properly if we do not live out her principles in responding to those who hate her.

Amen, Inocencio! If someone verbally attacks me, I'll turn the other cheek(I hope!). But if someone attacks my Mother, he's "walkin' on the fightin' side of me".

francis,
So how do you decide on the rare situation when it is appropiate to call someone out? And how did you decide whether or not the people you quoted hadn't thought it was appropiate to call someone out?
I mostly agree with your last post.
The Brokeback Mountain posts have brought some people who are very anti-Catholic. Sometimes in defending the Faith our tone can be harsh but that will happen when someone attacks the One you love.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

Inocencio--
Christ's mission was to redeem and save souls. He certainly knew the best method for doing that. But there are three important differences between His words to the pharisees and the money-changers and the way some Catholics conduct themselves online:
1. Christ's immediate communication was to a very limited audience-- the main recipients of his words were those to whom He was actually speaking. That's not the case on the Web, where anyone (including those 60,000 people last Friday) might see what's being said.
2. Of course, Christ's words to the Pharisees and money-changers were later recorded and read by millions in the Bible. But those readers were able to see them within the larger context of His message of God's love for man, and desire to save him. That message is much less immediately evident in this thread (especially to a newcomer) than in the Gospels.
3. Jesus was God-- He knew the souls of his interlocutors, and how to reach them effectively much more intimately than we can ever know anyone. Therefore, it seems appropriate to me that in most circumstances we should take care to limit ourselves to LESS causticity than He used. This is especially true in light of our obligation, at His command, to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us.
If someone is acting like a bigot, I would try to explain to him why his views are incorrect. Isn't that what apologetics is about? If that proves impossible, I would ignore whatever comments of his I feel are unworthy of response. If they're really that bad, anyone else visiting this site will see that for themselves. In rare situations, it may be appropriate to "call someone out" if we think or hope he may respond positively to it. But on the whole I think we should remember that when we post on this site, we're representatives of the Kingdom of Heaven-- and we're hoping to accept applications for citizenship. We're not likely to get as many if we portray the Kingdom as a place where you harrass and maltreat those who disagree.

As for the absence of questioning. I also am Catholic today because I questioned everything. I was raised in a very liberal family and lived a sinful life. I thought many of the things that Archer thinks. Finally, I wanted the Truth more than my pride and came home to the Church.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

I guess, Bill, that you think I'm oversensitive. But how are you deciding how much sensitivity is too much? From reading your other posts on this blog, I feel that we're more or less on the "same side," and so your implication that I'm so foolish as to get metaphorically "trapped in a freezer" isn't going to ruin my day or make me fall away from the faith. But what about someone who is hostile to the Church, or who simply doesn't know much about it and is kind of nervous even to be reading this blog? If that person is scared away from the Church by uncharitable posts, saying that they were "oversensitive" will not get them back.
We're commanded to love our enemies. I know that sometimes that can mean issuing a somewhat jarring wakeup call (e.g., the Pharisees as a 'brood of vipers). But I'm really afraid that this thread could give the impression that rudeness and snideness are what Catholicism is all about.
Remember, too, that very few of us here have any kind of recognized authority-- the credibility of our posts is determined entirely by the strength of the arguments they contain. For this reason, simply calling someone a name carried absolutley zero apologetical weight. If you want to make an argument that someone is wrong, do so. But a rude, idiotic, or otherwise unacceptable post will retain its character even if you refrain from calling the poster a boor, an idiot, or a jerk. Don't insult the intelligence of this community and other readers by acting otherwise.

francis,
Our Lord had some pretty choice words for the pharisees and showed holy anger when he took the cord and ran the money-changers out of the temple, also.
If someone is acting like a bigot what else would you call them?
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

My idea of "heated" is any statement that the other side will understand more as a comment about their personality than about their ideas. Perhaps this would better be defined as "pointless, self-congratulatory denigration of one's opponents." Either way, it is rampant in this thread.
This is supposed to be an apologetics blog, dedicated to explaining the truth as the Church understands it. I submit that calling someone a "squawking parrot," a "bunch of idiots," or a "bigot" is not likely to further that mission-- at least not when someone who might be looking for a thoughtful debate comes across so many instances of it in one thread.
Jesus didn't say to the Apostles, "if anyone will not receive your words, call them mean names." He said to shake their dust from your feet.

My idea of "heated" is any statement that the other side will understand more as a comment about their personality than about their ideas. Perhaps this would better be defined as "pointless, self-congratulatory denigration of one's opponents." Either way, it is rampant in this thread.
This is supposed to be an apologetics blog, dedicated to explaining the truth as the Church understands it. I submit that calling someone a "squawking parrot," a "bunch of idiots," or a "bigot" is not likely to further that mission-- at least not when someone who might be looking for a thoughtful debate comes across so many instances of it in one thread.
Jesus didn't say to the Apostles, "if anyone will not receive your words, call them mean names." He said to shake their dust from your feet.

Archer, you did cite St. Augustine as an authority for your position. If that was not your intent, perhaps you should learn to express yourself more clearly, rather than fault others' comprehension.
"It's just not possible to know (truth) completely." It is for God, Who IS truth. When He Who is Truth reveals truth, it is illigical to debate whether or not that truth is true.
I notice you didn't answer my other two questions. Care to try, now that you've had more time to think about them.

Francis, if that's your idea of "heated", you must be trapped in a freezer.

This leads me in the direction of evolution. I guess the churches real problem with evolution is that its members minds have ceased to evolve, therefore its leadership has ceased to evolve.
If that isnt clear enough, the absence of questioning is the absence of active thought. I would hope even a christian could understand that, but then again thats why the puzzle me.
1) The alleged progressive evolution of man is entirely unfounded.
2) Appealing to a "failure to evolve" as a reason why someone disagrees with you is akin to Stalin's directive, "You do not agree with me, therefore you are insane."
3) There is no need to question things we already have the answer for. 2+2=4. Now that you know that, and have had it demonstrated for you, is there any further room to question? Absolutly not. The same holds true for moral certitude. Once the Magisterium (through a careful study of revelaled scriptural truth) has ruled on a particular moral teaching, there is no more room for discussion. The conclusion IS the Truth.
In any sense, there is plenty of conclusive support to clearly define sexual morality. If you are so keen on a "lack of active thought", why don't you read it for yourself?

“David, the ony "heated" comments I saw above came from the anti-Catholic bigots, as I posted above and as the guy who posted after you confirmed.”
Really?
I don’t post here almost at all any more because I got sick of people referring to their brothers and sisters in ways like the following (all selected from this thread):
1. “I don't mind energy monsters. Especially when you can pratically hear pieces of brain falling out when they lob grapefruits over the plate like this. It shows the complete dearth of ideas in the opposition.”
2. “I thought to myself: what a bunch of idiots. I see that this has not changed.”
3. “The problem is that so many "progressives" have stretched their minds to the point that they obviously just BROKE.”
4. “You come off like a squawking parrot.”
5. “He took a gutless, lying, intellectually vacant cheap shot.”
6. “Another hanging curve. Benedict swats it out of the park. This is too easy.”
7. “It scares me to think that we have so many people like you in the world today.”
8. “If I wasn't already sympathetic to Mr Akin's POV, after the sheer a**-hattery of the folks who disagree with him, I would be now.”
9. “Other anti-Catholic bigots beat you to this site. But you may have managed to out-do them in ignorance and hate.”
10. “Amazing how you are so far above the rest of us in your thinking, at least in your own mind.”
11. “I see ... comment and escape before you get smacked with the Truth, eh?”
I’m not saying that you couldn’t make a case for the propriety of some of these comments. What I am saying is that, taken together, these comments will have a strong tendency to make your debate opponents stop thinking and start emoting—not a good thing for finding the truth.

Absence of questioning? Absence of questioning? Do you really think that all Christians are Christians from the cradle, of the blind sheep variety? I know I'm here (in the Church again) because I questioned everything. I'm a revert to the faith after a lapse where I rigorously set out to prove the Church wrong, like many, many others. Many converts and reverts to the faith are here because of their not only active, but rigorous thinking, and willingness to think and challenge their comfortable, easier ways, and lines of thought. Don't think it was always easy. I can't believe you can read this blog and still accuse people of not thinking, simply because man does not have the authority to change truth on the sinfulness of homosexual acts. Contradicting natural law in even one instance overthrows the many other derivative truths that have nothing to do with sex--truths that everyone instinctively acknowledges, and which depend on natural law at their very core. We know much about ourselves in how we were made. We do not include aberrations and weaknesses into our calculations of ideal behavior. That would be nonsensical. If we did, morality isn't good for anything, because you could legitimize any action, and the kinds of unhappiness and sufferings that would follow anarchy are too contrary to human will and nature. And sure the Church evolves. How else could it address morality in light of modern problems? But popular modern fads in secular thinking, are a terrible excuse to reduce Truth to a mere democratic process. Truth is simply not a democracy, thankfully.

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