I am in the neo-catechumenal way and have been for 2 years. I was raised a Catholic also though had gone through the period of 'lost interest' that most do at some point in their teenage.
The fruits of the way are clear in the lives of people in the way, as well as in the evangelisation that it achieves and its success in calling so many young men and women to a vocation within the church.
I do however pray that the way could be more 'at one' with the church and local parish communities. I think everyone from both camps does. But there seems to be a division perpetuated by those on both sides of the fence. I am eager to see any recommendations from Rome implemented, but the relevance and potency of the way's celebrations and catechesis retained.

Dear All,
I don't know who 'cultbuster' is, but he either knows very little about the Way, or he is taking their teaching out of context.
As you have seen above, I am a blind follower of no one but Christ. And I'm a member of 'The Way'.
Someone can spread disinformation or start fires faster than anyone can put them out, but I'm going to put out a couple in the minds of any reasonable person.
When the Way speaks of the kind of 'love' which is referred to above - they are speaking in the sense that Jesus spoke of: 'If anyone loves mother or father or sister or brother more than me...'
They are speaking of a love of anyone or anything which has become an idol - which has become stronger than than their love of God. That they are to get rid of.
It is the same vein in which they tell people to get rid of their money - at least once - to get rid of their 'idols'.
We are called to perfection - not to half-hearted following of Christ. Is that radical. Yes, it is. Is that unheard of, not it isn't. Jesus told the wealthy young man that '...if you would be perfect, sell what you have and follow me.'
And it is that sense to which the way is speaking.
The exact same types of charges have been laid against Opus Dei, as this man is laying against the Way. 'Opus Dei' is just as radical in its call to follow Christ - as the Way - and suffered the same kind of charges. Everywhere you read they are some kind of scurrilous secret group ensnaring people and tearing young people away from their parents, etc.
The only kind of Christianity which is going to re-Christianize the West - is as Radical a committment to Christ as the Christians of the Infant Church had. The mealy-mouthed or half-hearted kind has produced the disaster we currently see throughout the West - which Pope Benedict has been screaming about for years.
Pope Benedict brought the NeoCatechumenal way into Munich when he was Bishop there - for just to purpose of radicaling the Catholics in their committment to Christ.
The only thing cultbuster and I agree on is this - will [as Opus Dei had to at one point, and St. Francis had to at one point] will The Way be obedient?
The Holy Father and Cardinal Arinze have left no doubt that the points in the letter are to be obeyed - that it is not some point of 'dialogue'.
I think they will pass the test, no matter how disappointed they are. They cannot be any more disappointed than St. Francis was when the Pope told him he had to modify his rule. I believe they will obey.
All my love in Christ
Desmond

Wood and trees was mentioned a while back. The NCW's iffy communion is the least of its transgressions. Views on the NCW's techniques of mental manipulation, public confessions, forced separations, arranged marriages, societal alienation and separatism are open to subjectivity, as I suppose are the approx. 2000 harrowing testimonies to that effect that I have collected from former followers. So I'll pass no comment. Let us instead remind ourselves of what Arguello and Hernandez write in their instructions to 'catechists' the lay people who dictate the doctrine: I have this document in French, not English, so I'll show the original then translate.
"‘Il ne sert à rien de dire aux gens qu'ils doivent aimer.
Personne ne peut aimer l'autre." p136
"It serves no purpose to tell people they should love. No one can love another." p136
[Um, I think Jesus thought otherwise. In fact, if that wasn't the whole reason he gave his life then I'm a Scientologist.]
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que le catéchuménat? Un temps pendant lequel on te mettra de la boue sur les yeux. Ceci est l'action de Jésus Christ: Parce que tu ne sais pas que tu es aveugle. Tu ne sais pas que tu es sale et pour cela tu ne veux pas te laver. Jésus te mettra de la boue sur les yeux pour que tu te sentes incommodé et que tu sois obligé d'aller te laver aux eaux de ton baptême, pour te laver réellement de tes péchés."p16
"What is the catecumenate? A time during which we'll put mud in your eyes. This is the action of Jesus Christ: because you don't know you're blind. You don't know you're dirty and because of that you don't want to wash yourself. Jesus will put mud in your eyes so you will feel troubled and you will be forced to go and wash yourself in the waters of your baptism, to wash yourself properly of your sins." p16
[Let's just be clear: in the NCW you WILL be baptized even against your will, because they will make you 'troubled' so you will be 'forced' to do it. Just so we're clear. I know many Neocats and, trust me, they are indeed troubled. So Arguello's not lying.]
"Tout ce que le père a à offrir au fils lui donne envie de vomir, parce qu'au fond la vie du père est un échec." p52
"Anything a father can give a son makes him want to vomit, because at root the life of a father is a failure." p52
[because the only daddy you need is Big Kiko, except he's really quite a small man, like Napoloeon and Hitler, with whom he shares some views]
"Permettez-moi de vous poser une question: Pourquoi imaginez-vous sans cesse la mort de vos enfants ? Je dirais: PARCE QUE DANS VOTRE SUBCONSCEINT VOUS LA DÉSIREZ."
"Let me ask you a question: Why do you constantly imagine the death of your children? I'll tell you: BECAUSE IN YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS YOU WISH IT."
[and in case you didn't, ol' Kiko's making sure you do now. That'll 'trouble' you some.]
" L'homme cherche la vie dans les biens (c'est pourquoi, dans la communauté, vous vendrez vos biens; ne le dites pas aux gens, vous les feriez fuir à la course). " p50
"Man defines his life by his property (that's why, in the Community, you will sell your property: don't tell them, you'll make them flee)" p50
[whoops, what a giveaway. and don't forget, folks, the money you raise from selling your family home will go directly to 'Rome' where Kiko has a nice villa, somewhat nicer than the Madrid slum he crawled out from]
"Enfin, il y a un troisième cercle, un troisième groupe de frères. Ce sont ceux qui vivent dans le mensonge, qui se sont toujours menti à eux-mêmes. Ce sont ceux en qui Satan agit avec une force réelle ... Ce sont peut-être les plus riches humainement, les plus intelligents. Ce sont ceux qui ne supportent pas la communauté . . . "
"There is a third group of brothers. Those who live a lie, who have always lied to themselves. Those in who Satan acts with a real force. They are perhaps the most rich humanly, the most intelligent. Those who do not support the Community."
[He means those who criticise the NCW or try to get their loved ones out of the cult. They are Satan's monkey boys sent from hell to drag innocent, vulnerable, gullible people away from Kiko's nihilistic hate and into love and therapy and a decent church]
‘Il est nécessaire de faire ces catéchèses en premier parce qu'autrement les gens vous écouteraient de leur propre point de vue . . .’ p39
"It is necessary to perform these catechisms first because otherwise people will listen to you from their own point of view . . ." p39
[stunning admission of intent to thought-reform from Arguello himself.]
And here's my favorite, spoken like a true Christian:
"Femmes ... si vous êtes amoureuse de votre mari, c'est qu'il devient pour vous une idole ! Une femme amoureuse n'est pas une vraie chrétienne -- si elle aime son mari, elle doit apprendre à le haïr."
"Women ... if you are in love with your husband then he has become an idol for you! A woman in love is not a real Christian -- if she loves her husband, she must learn to hate him."
[ah, hate: always a good addition to the Christian lifestyle, not STRICTLY endorsed by jesus, but, hey, this is Kiko, not Jesus]
"Si vous partez, le sang de Jésus Christ par notre témoignage retombera sur vous."
"If you leave, the blood of Jesus Christ, by our witness, will fall on you." p107
[Violent and bloody threats in case you have a mind to worship elsewhere]
I don't see why this forum is using such kid gloves to talk about the NCW: it can show its true colors, just by talking about itself.
Personally I'm glad Ratzinger has called them into line, but in my view he has not gone nearly far enough. While 'I know you'll obey' is a reserved and diplomatic threat to excommunicate them if they do not, it only concerns their liturgy. Their domination techniques and their doctrines, as evidenced here, are what need to be changed. As long as they're dancing round the table they're drawing unfavorable attention to themselves and people are going to ask questions. He's effectively telling them to be circumspect, less obvious. Dangerous: those questions NEED to be asked. Compared to this stuff it seems pretty inconsequential whether or not they sit down, stand, kneel or dance the tango to take communion. Communion is still communion, but hate and mental manipulation is not Christian.
It's only my opinion, but you'll find it's shared by a growing number of psychiatrists and family protection charities the world over. It should also be shared by Catholics and all Christians. The NCW's days are numbered. Christians have a duty to reduce that number by direct action.

Everything which we do as Catholics, must be done in the spirit of charity - which St. Paul speaks of so eloquently. Anything less, and we do not help the Church, but harm her.
In all things, we are safe following the course and leadership of the Holy Father. Pope John Paul II was very enthusiastic about the Mission and Ministry of the NeoCatechumenal Way. So is Pope Benedict. When he was Bishop of Munich, Germanay, he personally brought the Way into his Diocese.
He also sees areas which can improve the affectiveness of the Way - and is directing the Way to make some changes. His predecessors did the same thing with St. Francis of Assisi - Francis obeyed, and the result was the bulwark which the Franciscan Order has been for the Church.
I believe based upon my experience, that Kiko and Carmen will be completely obedient to the Holy Father - and that the end result will be the same as it was with St. Francis.
All my love in Christ
Desmond

i just happen to open this page... peace to all of you. i've read so many contradicting comments 'bout this issue... confusing to those people with little faith who might read this...("Brothers, do not be a stumbling block to anyone...") i pray that we may all have the grace of God to see ALL THINGS with the eye of LOVE. that's the only way for us to be united.
"glory be to our God in the highest, and peace on earth, to the people that HE LOVES."
-walking in the way since 11.

Dear All,
As in most broo-ha-ha's, most of the participants wind up not listening to each other - but repeating their point of view. In most such cases, in my experience, nothing is accomplished when that is what is going on.
I am a Catholic, but I'm not a blind Catholic. I was trained by my orthodox/faithful Philosophy and Theology Profs not to be 'blind' about legitimate discussion - in areas where Catholics are free doctrinally and morally to present opposing views.
Speaking to the current situation vis-a-vis the NeoCatechumenal Way, the Holy Father, and Cardinal Arinze - I have the following observations:
1. Members of Church Organizations/Apostolates can be very defensive when something appears to be a negative in regards to their organization or apostolate. And that can give a bad initial impression - especially when the defensive language appears to be a bit hyperbolic.
2. A classic case is the Franciscans. When St. Francis first proposed his 'Rule' to the Holy Father for approval - the Holy Father after serious prayer and study of the matter required some amendments to Francis' proposed rule.
When he did so, Francis was at first very upset - quite resistive - and quite defensive. But, in the end, Francis was obedient to the Magisterium.
That was the primary test of the authenticity of his charism and apostolate. It is the first/primary test of any Apostolate - absolute obedience to the Magisterium.
3. Francis' enemies (and he and the other newly forming Mendicant Orders had plenty of them) made much of the fact that the Holy Father was forcing Francis to make some modifications.
4. The Holy Father did so, because he saw great value in Francis' view of an Order Based in emulation of the apostolic poverty.
Many who were participants or recipients in the 'wealthy' Church structure of the time viewed Francis' ideas as a direct threat to their 'way'. The great debates at the University of Paris about the new 'Mendicant Orders' - was furious, and in many cases vicious in challenging Sts. Francis, Dominic, etc, and their new Apostolate/Orders.
Further problems developed within the Franciscans, in that a number of them began to think that their 'way' - was the only 'way'.
They thought, wrote, and believed that nothing of much value had happened in the Church since the time of the Edict of Milan. Why? In their particular case, they thought that once the Church had become 'legal' in the Roman Empire early in the 4th century - that it had become corrupt and had accomplished little.
But now, they thought that the Church was back on track with the emulated apostolic poverty of Francis and his order.
That kind of Franciscan implied that those who followed other ways or apostolates in the Church were in many ways defective.
The Church didn't agree. :-)
This is an old problem within the Church - stretching back to Her very infancy with the birth of new Movements of Apostolates - the belief that my 'way' is the 'only way'.
St. Bonaventure, a Doctor of the Church and one of Her greatest theologians had to deal with these excesses in the Franciscan Order - as Father General of the Franciscan Order. And deal with them he did - working with the Holy Father.
Bonaventure even had to go to the point of threatening some of the more obstreporous Franciscans with removal from the Order, and excommunication by Rome if they didn't drop their excessive and unwarranted claims.
In the long run, the Franciscans became one of the major bulwarks of the Church - after many hard fought battles.
The same can be said of the Dominicans, the Jesuits, etc.
They had their faults, and they had their enemies and their friends.
In each case, either with friends or enemies, good was worked by those who were not blind defenders or blind attackers of these new Orders or Movements within the Church.
In cases like these, history demonstrates that 'reserving judgment' is always the best course. When Rome allows an organization to work within the framework of the Church - there is always good reason behind it.
When Rome requires amendments or change within such an organization - that is almost always for the best of the organization.
In cases such as these - cooler heads always prevail in the end.
And the top head, the Holy Father, his head is almost always the coolest in such situations. And his lead is best followed by one and all in such situations.
BTW, I understand that I don't sound like a zealot one way or another in this discussion - which might lead someone to believe I have no emotional loyalties. But such a conclusion would be misleading.
I'm a member of the NeoCatechumenal Way in Denver, Colorado. And we have and enjoy the blessing, guidance, and leadership or our Ordinary, Archbishop Charles Chaput. And anyone will be hardpressed to find a more orthodox/faithful Bishop in the Church.
All my love in Christ
Desmond Birch

quote Are we to understand that the NW is not open to other members of the faithful as the statutes approved by the Holy See in 2002 require (article 13.3)? Does the NW have a certain small number for its small group? And how does it maintain this small number, does the NW refuse admittance to the liturgy? I would really like a response to these questions.
unquote
I hope I can help.
It was interesting to see Bishops brought into this thread in a slightly different connection above.
This concerns them as well.
It is up to the bishop of the diocese in unity with the vicars-general and all diocesan clergy and officials to determine to hold many "catecheses" in which people have the opportunity to enter into "communities".
The more these are rationed by the diocesan authorities, the more chance people have of being deprived of opportunities to join in.
Where the diocese is not united with the bishop, dissension and hesitation result, which undermines the ordinary faith-seeker in the pew.
The dioceses where this Way is the most successful in its fruits are where the diocesan authorities manifest a strong and genuine unity.
There normally are - and in each diocese should be - clear guidelines about welcoming all comers into some liturgies, with only some celebrations adopting a private character for members of that community only.
The size of a specific community will reflect the number of people coming forward from a "catechesis" and they can also be merged at a later date.
In a well-organised diocese it should always be clear when non-members can join in, which should be some of the time. In a well-organised diocese there will furthermore be frequent opportunities to for anyone to join another community after another "catechesis". The neo-catechumenate isn't another species, it is a diocesan activity and the dioceses must take it seriously if they are going to go in for it.
There will be times the communities gather together. Some people will worry about not being in the same community as their friend but may come to accept that God has given them new friends not to replace the old but extra. Everyone finds the community activities take up too much time. The best response is to do what you can and stand up for yourself on sensible constructive grounds.
In connection with the liturgical controversy I doubt there is genuine reluctance, on the whole, within the Way to obey what the Pope and Arinze have said. There might be the odd p*** artist who wants to make a show of taking their time. As a community member I decry that attitude.
In connection with the "Mass is not a sacrifice" controversy this was not told me in the community. In fact the opposite was told me. I expect the majority of members of these communities have not been told that but the opposite, and they don't embrace that but the opposite. There again I think it is based on what some person with an axe to grind said at some time, or a person who was making a point carelessly and inaccurately. I share the present Pope's desire for excellence which would extend to excellence in catechising. Also we must all be more shrewd and uphold integrity better in the practice of our public relations both within and outside the Church.

Hi,
I am from the Czech Republic, just happend to find this page. I just want to tell you that if God has some plan with the neocatecumenal way within the catholic church, and if it is according to his Holy Will, then you are loosing your time here pointing on the faults, the errors, missinterpretations, ignorance of the neocat...God will take care of everything, do not worry.
Allways through the history of the catholic church, God is choosing little poeple,to do big things. And every saint, in order to obbey God's will had to undergo persecution, missuderstanding, suffering, criticism, judgmets of the others. Just think of Teresa of Avila and her reform of the carmelite order, and how many enemies she used to have,her own novices accused her, and denounced her at the Inquisition.
But whenver something good is going on, the evil tries to attack and destroy it, so in the same way , if the neocat.way is just some result of heresy it will not last withing the catholic church, but if it is a fruit of the Holy Spirit , it will last, it will be an efficient tool of the catholic church for this time, and it will bare its frutis: convertion to God, change of life, signs of christian life, obedience to bishops and to the Holy Father...
Yes, we are imperfect, poor,sinners but God loves us, and wants us to reflect His love in this world. May He bless us, give us the spirit of humility and unity so we stop arguing, and be witnesses of His love towards us in this world.
Monika

Jim,
I understand that NW is very important to you.
My hope is that the NW will be obedient to the norms and bishops.
I am sorry but I can not understand or imagine anyone "dancing" around the altar at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
I would encourage you to read not only the text of the letter from Cardinal Arinze directly to the NW but also Redemptionis Sacramentum.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cc...
After your description of the NW "liturgy" I can see why Cardinal Arinze summed up his letter to the NW with the following words "In short, the Neocatechumenal Way, in its celebration of the Holy Mass, should follow the approved liturgical books."
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

One always points to the Eucharistic Liturgy of the Neocatechumenal Way, and from that they make judgements on who we are and what we do.To emphasize one point the Neocatechumenal communities promote an open to life mentality. In my community one couple has 14 children, I have 13, another has 11, 3 with 8 or more. We are encouraged to pray, be open to life and to tithe to the Church. What is so unorthodox about that? Many people within the Church have a misconception of the Neocatechumenal Way, its liturgy’s and activities. One would think that it is a totally secret and domineering movement within the Church, with surprising power, but it is not. As a member of the Neocatechumenate for over 25 years I can say that it has only helped to increase my faith and made firmer my Catholic beliefs.
Often I hear it said that those in the Neocatechumenate do not follow the practices of the Church. From many different sources I have heard that the members of the Neocatechumenal Way do not go to Mass, frequent the confessional, participate in the life of the parish, or contribute to the parish with their time, talent, or treasure. This is not true.
Yes, the Neocatechumenate does celebrate a Eucharist with their communities on Saturday nights, and our Eucharist does have some differences than the normative Mass celebrated throughout the world, but with approval of the parish pastor, diocesan Bishop and in communion with the Holy Father.
Every Eucharistic celebration begins with an admonition to listen to the Word of God made present in the assembly through the Presbyter, the readings, the community and through receiving the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion. Before each of the three readings, a short admonition is given (not a homily) to encourage the listener to welcome the Word of God into their heart. Following the Gospel, but before the homily, the priest will allow for an “echo”. This is a time for the people present to share what the readings echoed, or resounded in their heart as they heard the readings. Yes, sometimes these echoes can be long, and off base, but the priest will interject, correct and even put a stop to the sharing whenever he feels that it is necessary. Then the priest continues with a homily which are often much longer than that offered by a priest in the main celebration of Mass in the Church, as time is not a factor in the celebration of the Eucharist.
After the homily, the prayer of the faithful is offered and then the Sign of Peace is exchanged, with approval of the Holy See. This is a great time of reconciliation, exchanging the peace of Christ, before bringing our gifts to the Altar. “If you have judgments with your brother, go reconcile before you offer your gift”
The Eucharist continues and then the Body of Christ is broken from one loaf, freshly baked unleavened bread, given to each who is properly disposed to receive the Eucharist. Those not place their hands across their chest in the form of a cross to let the priest know, not to give them communion. Then the priest returns to his chair, and we all consume the Body of Christ together. It is an awesome feeling to hold the Body of Christ in ones hand meditation on his sacrifice, his gift to us, while waiting for each to receive. Then the priest will bring the Blood of Christ to each person seated and we each will drink from the cup. The Eucharist is concluded with a “dance” around the altar, thanking God for his great gift to us.
Participation by the communities present is more complete in the celebration of the Eucharist as seen with the sharing, singing and sign of peace, and sense of community. Many are often amazed at the number of children seated in the front rows, with the way they enter into the celebration with singing and attentiveness.
As far as participating in the life of the parish, I can speak from experience of my community of 40 brothers and sisters. Over half of us attend daily Mass, most of us are involved with some sort of parish work, religious education, giving Catechesis, serving as lectors, Eucharistic Ministers, visiting the sick, and Eucharistic Adoration. I would even be willing to say that the members of the Neocatechumenate contribute more financially to the parish as well than the average parishioner.
The interesting thing about all this is that it is not being done by the Neocatechumenal Way, or the individual community, but by each of us anonymously. We do not wear a badge that identifies us as members of the Neocatechumenal Way as we participate in the life of the Church. We are called to serve the Church and we do.
And what is life in the Neocatechumenal Way? Life consists in a series of steps along the way in that we rediscover our Baptism and come to an adult faith. We receive an initial Catechesis and then meet one night during each week and have a Liturgy of the Word. We also meet together as a community once a month for a convivance, or a day away where we spend the day in prayer with our community and with our children.

Jim,
Mr. Gennarini for whatever reason most definitely misrepresented the contents of the letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in his email to Jimmy Akin.
I make no guess at his motives only that it was clear in his zenit interview and his email that he was wrong about what the letter stated. That is the "spin" that is being referred to in this post.
We all acknowledge that Pope Benedict XVI sees great potential for the NW if they are obedient to the norms and bishops.
Since you know Mr. Gennarini personally maybe you could ask him if he is going to respond to Jimmy email regarding this post.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

I have known Mr. Gennarini for the past 28 years. He is a dynamic catechist and faithful Catholic, devoted to the Church. He is very passionate in his beliefs and it is not spin for him to defend the Neocatechumenal Way, a way of adult faith formation that he has been so instrumental in its spread throughout the United States. Many seminaries have been formed through the association of the Neocatechumenal communities and Bishops in different Diocese. I would encourage all to speak to the Bishops who have Redemptoris Mater Seminaries, speak to the seminarians themselves, and even participate in a Neocatechumenal Liturgy, not just a Saturday Night Eucharist. Each community also meets one night during the week and is given a Word, prepared by members of their community. This Word normally consists of 4 readings. One Old Testament Historical reading, one Prophetic reading, one New Testament reading and a proclamation of a Gospel. I would like to invite all to attend a Neocatechumenal Way catechesis, to understand that it is truly Catholic. Jim Montgomery

jdh,
Thank you for clarifying. How does the NW respond if a small group becomes a large group and what constitutes a large group? Are there actual numbers that are strived for?
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

elmo,
To begin with my comments about Vatican II were addressed to John. I was not building a straw man you need to try to read slower and understand context before you comment like Mr. Gennarini.
Second, you said Mr. Gennarini was reacting to negative spin by by Magister and Tornielli. Whatever his motives he "spun" the contents of the letter. If you want to call him a liar that is your business. Jimmy and I have both in Christian charity said Mr. Gennarini misrepresented the contents of the letter.
Mr. Gennarini did a huge "spin" on the actual text of the letter if you, in your zeal, are to blind to see that when the actual text and context are presented to you that is your problem not mine.
Third, you came to Mr. Gennarini defense but ignored the facts. Mr. Gennarini MISREPRESENTED the text and context of the letter. Jimmy pointed that out. I am sorry if you cannot admit that. I can only hope you will read the text of the letter.
As for non-Christians reading this blog they would be looking for the truth. They would be disappointed to find that some Christians ignore the plain facts when presented with them.
I had no opinion of the NW before this post by Jimmy, but nothing posted by NW has impressed thus far.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

Inocencio:
You haven't refuted anything. I have responded to your criticisms, and you've responded only by repeating them, as if repeatedly making the same assertions were proof of anything.
Now you are building straw men arguments and attacking them, not anything that I have said here, i.e., the subject is Vatican II, The Way is "dreamy." In fact, I've not said anything positive or negative about the Neocatechumenal Way or its practices. Nor I have mentioned Vatican II. Next you will be accusing me of speaking out against the Tridentine Mass.
I saw the character of a brother in Christ being impugned by those who call themselves Christians, some of them people who claim to teach on the faith, such as Jimmy Akin. When Gennarini attempted to defend himself and his group, he was met with further ridicule and criticism. He was again called a liar by Jimmy Akin and his followers on this board. When you say someone "spins" you are basically saying they are a liar. I don't believe this is Christian love. If any non-Christians were to stumble onto this site read these comments, they would think that we are all a bunch of Pharisees, and with good reason! Pharisees were not followers of Christ. And Christ said the gentiles would know we were his disciples through our love. If one looks to those who say they are teachers of Christianity and finds no charity in them, how appealling would they find the Christian faith? They would run as far away as possible. They would seek Christ elsewhere.
I've exhausted my thoughts on this topic. Goodbye to you all and God bless you.

Innocencio,
just to clarify, when I said 'mass in small groups, which is forbidden for the rest of the Church', I didn't mean other people are forbidden from going to NC Masses, I meant that only the Way has permission to celebrate Sunday Mass in small groups, if you see what i mean. Just clarifying.

Bill912,
Excellent point!
It also took an average of 50 years for each council to be completely accepted and bear fruit. We have the joy of being part of that time as we approach nearly 50 years for Vatican II.
As Pope Benedict XVI has said many times let us return to the teachings of Vatican II for our guidance.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

The problems that afflicted the Church in this country mostly after Vatican II were already afflicting the Church in Europe before Vatican II. The problems a council is called to address are usually worse AFTER the council than they were before it: there were more Aryans AFTER Nicaea than before it; there were more Nestorians AFTER Ephesus than before it. Those living shortly after those councils may well have had their doubts about them. We, looking back on over one and a half millenia, see that the Church triumphed. She will again.

elmo,
You seem, like most NW so far, to be ignoring the plain text of the letter and the facts. If you have something to offer to the discussion please do so. But if your assertions are refuted please do not whine about it.
John,
I am with Bill912, I'll look to the Holy Father and not you.
Have you ever asked yourself if everything was so dream-like before Vatican II how did it change so quickly? I would suggest that people like yourself did nothing but point-fingers and complain rather than try to understand what Vatican II called for and living that out. Every problem you think just popped up after Vatican II has always been with the Church because it is a Divine Institution made up of sinners. Try to grasp that and strive to be holy as Vatican II called all of us to do. If we all do that we will build up the Mystical Body of Christ and not injure it.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

Speaking of looking in the mirror...

Inocencio:
Jimmy Akin is entitled to his opinion on Gennarini's remarks. Doesn't mean his opinion is correct. Nor is yours. Myself and others have tried to explain where Gennarini's coming from but we might as well be talking to the nearest door. You've shown no indication of even noticing, let alone understanding, any point of view on this topic that you did not already hold going in. Why should Gennarini respond to Akin, or Magister, or you or any other critic, for that matter? It would appear to be pointless.

You look in the mirror; I'll look to the Holy Father. Ubi Petrus, ibi Ecclesia!

"Norms"-"GIRM"-"ICEL"
All a bunch of baloney for a mass that is basically Protestant in nature-not saying invalid, but Protestant with many , sometimes up to 3 choices to choose from -from the "Greeting" all the way on through the mass. Take a look at the Traditional Mass as compared to the New Mass side by side and the first thing you notice is that the New Mass is about half as long, and has option 1, 2, or 3 etc etc
You cant make an ugly duckling into a swan no matter how hard these liberals from the 1960's and Vatican II try, it is a failure, an expirment that failed miserably and the empty pews, pedophila, the youth of today not knowing their catechism, empty seminaries, a priesthood that is 50% homosexual and void of any faith, to church after church being sold to pay for the sins of these clergy
A return to the faith and CATHOLICISM is the only answer-Just look into the Mirror!

elmo,
Jimmy clearly stated the "spin" Mr. Gennarini did on the letter, whatever his motives. Facts after the Zenit article prove Jimmy has a clear understanding of the letter and Mr. Gennarini's misrepresentation on what it said and its authority.
Jimmy has been very clear in making his points based on the letter while admitting he has no problem with NW.
Now I can only speak for myself on the comments but it sure seems like most NW are oblivious to the text of the letter and Pope Benedict XVI and Cardinal Arinze's expectations of its implementation not to exceed two years.
I repeat I have no thoughts on the NW one way or the other. But I am very interested to see if Mr. Gennarini responds to Jimmy email and how the NW publicly respond to the letter.
Pope Benedict XVI seems to see great potential for the NW if they "will attentively observe these norms, which are based on liturgical texts approved by the Church." Because as he states this is the way to "render your apostolate even more effective, in harmony and full communion with the Pope and the pastors of dioceses."
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

Inocencio:
It wasn't the Vatican letter that put Gennarini on the defense. It was the negative spin in reporting and commentary from the media, this site and others, that provoked him.

jdh,
No comments on my list of facts taken at face value?
You claim that the NW has received a substantial approval of its liturgical praxis namely, the Sunday Mass celebrated in small groups, which is forbidden for the rest of the Church.
Are we to understand that the NW is not open to other members of the faithful as the statutes approved by the Holy See in 2002 require (article 13.3)? Does the NW have a certain small number for its small group? And how does it maintain this small number, does the NW refuse admittance to the liturgy? I would really like a response to these questions.
It sure seems like a lot of NW are very defensive about the letter, especially Mr. Gennarini, if nobody would question the NW obedience.
I have nothing against the NW and if they are as obedient as you claim that will give me a positive perspective on them.
But the comments by most of the NW on this blog cause me to wonder if they think the letter was such a ringing endorsement of the NW and the NW members are so obedient why do they feel the need to comment at all?
I won't go through each item of the letter but if you read the documents quoted for context you see that it was most definitely a correction to bring the NW liturgical praxis in line with the approved liturgical books. My hope is that the NW will be as publicly obedient as you claim.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

Jeff,
Your rather selective list of facts at face value' relating to this matter, apart from anything else, appears to suggest that the Pope's words last Thursday were influenced by his reading of this weblog. Surely you don't really think this?
Your analysis of your list of facts is further based on the notion, promoted by various websites and newspapers which have always been hostile to the NC Way (I am not referring to this website), that this letter represents a 'clampdown' on the Way which the Way resents, rather than a substantial approval of its liturgical praxis (namely, the Sunday Mass celebrated in small groups, which is forbidden for the rest of the Church) with some changes, the Way's obedience to which nobody who knew them would question.

I don't know about their official Catechesis. But I have read things by Neocats, including the head honchos, taking issue with the whole Tridentine doctrinal edifice, not saying it's "wrong" but that it's misleading and disastrous, especially the presentation of the Mass as a Sacrifice.
God forfend, say I.
Do I have to love the Neocats? I like some stuff about them and dislike other stuff. I don't LIKE much of their liturgical praxis, even many of the things that MAY be approved. I don't care for altar girls, either, or communion in the hand. Do I hafta? I don't think so. One can think those things are bad ideas and hope they disappear without being a bad Catholic.

jdh,
Ok lets take the facts at face value.
1. Cardinal Arinze issues a letter on 12/01/05 Reguarding the "conversations with this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments on the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist in the communities of the Neocatechumenal Way..." to inform the NW of Pope Benedict XVI decsions.
a. Instucting the NW to enter into dialogue with the diocesan bishop to make it clear the NW is incorporated into the parish and at least one Sunday per month participate in the Holy Mass of the parish.
b. Any admonitions before the readins must be brief and adhere the “Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani” (nn. 105 and 128) and to the Praenotanda of the “Ordo Lectionum Missae” (nn. 15, 19, 38, 42). Please look up these references for context.
c. The homily is reserved to the priest or deacon (cf. Codex Iuris Canonici, can. 767 § 1). Occasional testimonies of the lay faithful "must not assume characteristics that might cause them to be confused with the homily." Careful attention must also be paid to the Instruction “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” no. 74, which state it is "altogether preferable that [testimonies] be done outside of Mass or after the priest has proclaimed the Prayer after Communion" and that this should not become a regular practice.
d. On the manner of receiving Holy Communion, a period of transition (not exceeding two years) is granted to the Neocatechumenal Way to pass from the widespread manner of receiving Holy Communion in its communities (seated, with a cloth-covered table placed at the center of the church instead of the dedicated altar in the sanctuary) to the normal way in which the entire Church receives Holy Communion. This means that the Neocatechumenal Way must begin to adopt the manner of distributing the Body and Blood of Christ that is provided in the liturgical books.
e. The Neocatechumenal Way must also make use of the other Eucharistic Prayers contained in the missal, and not only Eucharistic Prayer II.
f. In short, the Neocatechumenal Way, in its celebration of the Holy Mass, should follow the approved liturgical books.
2. Mr. Gennarini in a Zenit interview on 01/01/06 tries unsuccesfully to make it sound like NW received no correction.
3. Mr. Gennarini emails Jimmy Akin after his 01/03/06 post about the "Neocatechumenal Spin" claiming not to have misrepresented what the letter said and that the letter was an "instrumentum laboris" and that it had very little authority.
4. The Vatican Information Service reports on 01/12/06 that Pope Benedict XVI meeting with a group of the NW then referred to norms concerning the celebration of the Eucharist recently emanated, specifically for the Neocatechumenal Way, by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.
"I am sure," he said, "that you will attentively observe these norms, which are based on liturgical texts approved by the Church. By faithful adherence to all Church directives, you will render your apostolate even more effective, in harmony and full communion with the Pope and the pastors of dioceses."
If that can be interperted as a "riposte to the people who were claiming the Way is disobedient" then you must also believe in Sola Scriptura.
I am still waiting for Mr. Gennarini to respond to Jimmy's email.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

Jeff - the NC Way catechesis on the Mass. as on everything else, was scrutinised and approved by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith whilst Ratzinger was prefect, the idea that it rejects any part of Church teaching is therefore 'toast' as Mr Akin would say.
Furthermore, I don't think that it's particularly healthy to start giving interpretations of what the Pope says. He said what he said. We could interpret it a whole load of ways (for example, rather than a 'reminder' to the Way, this could just as easily be interpreted as a riposte to the people who were claiming the Way is disobedient) Or we could just take it at face value.
God Bless

I agree that "I am sure you will obey," is a kind, but firm way of saying, "I EXPECT you to do so."
Let's hope the Neocats start fixing things NOW (not waiting until just before the two years) and don't do it with minimizing and grudging interpretations. Let's hope they don't pretend that they haven't been told what they've been told.
If they'd fix their silly liturgy and stop saying stuff about the Tridentine doctrine being all wrong and the Mass not being a Sacrifice I'd love them too. I think the fact that Benedict and JPII both thought the world of them is indicative of great promise. May it not be cut short by a REAL development into a cult.

jdh,
This is from the Vatican Information Service:
The Pope then referred to norms concerning the celebration of the Eucharist recently emanated, specifically for the Neocatechumenal Way, by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.
"I am sure," he said, "that you will attentively observe these norms, which are based on liturgical texts approved by the Church. By faithful adherence to all Church directives, you will render your apostolate even more effective, in harmony and full communion with the Pope and the pastors of dioceses."
Sure sounds like he is reminding them to do as they have been instucted.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

Inocencio,
I quite agree that "Good fathers can be very "gentle, paternal and encouraging" in public because they have been firm, clear and consistent in discipline beforehand."
However, neither the text of the letter, nor the Holy Father's words on Thursday, nor anything in his behaviour towards the NC Way shows that his intention was to tell off, 'clamp down' or otherwise show displeasure with this group. In fact, quite the opposite is indicated. Benedict the VXI has now joined his predecessors in giving public support to the NC Way. What passed between the Pope and the initiators of the Way in their private audience in November is...er...private, and I can't see why so many people feel qualified to speculate on what was said.
Furthermore, Nowhere in those extracts from his address which have been published on the internet did he 'remind' the NC Way it needed to be faithful to the instructions the Church gives it. To do so would be to suggest that they needed to be reminded. Again, in fact, he did just the opposite by stating that 'your apostolic activity aims to situate itself within the bosom of the Church, in total harmony with her directives.' He wasn't telling the neocats to be obedient, he was observing that they are obedient, which, of course, they are and will continue to be.

I have received no reply from Mr. Gennarini to date. I would be interested to know what he might have to say in reply.

jdh,
Good fathers can be very "gentle, paternal and encouraging" in public because they have been firm, clear and consistent in discipline beforehand.
Jimmy answered each point of Mr. Gennarini and was correct in that this letter was not private or an instrumentum laboris as Mr. Gennarini claimed. Pope Benedict XVI's gentle and encouraging reminder to be faithful to the norms and bishops makes it clear that the NW needed to hear that from him.
Does anyone know if Mr. Gennarini ever responded to Jimmy's reply?
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

Elmo- what does all this semantic arguing have to do with the fact that the NW doesn't adhere to liturgical norms, and that the Vatican has asked them to comply with the norms spelled out by the Vatican.
As someone who contemplated joining the NW when they came to my parish, it was their liturgy that turned me off, frankly. It was very disconcerting to me that (1) Their masses are not held on Sunday and (2) Their method of distributing communion is not conducive to receiving the host on the tongue.
I believe they do have strong faith and are truly Catholic, but these practices strip away 2 key Church traditions that (at least for me, call me a fuddy-duddy if you want) (1) Emphasize the sabbath as the day of Christ's resurrection, Sunday, (I may be wrong, but the church has allowed Saturday evening mass only in order to help people fulfill their Sunday obligations if Sunday is somehow inconvenient) and (2) show reverence for Christ's body and blood.
Oh yeah, and dancing around the altar after mass doesn't help either.

Is it possible we could be running a risk of not seeing the wood for the trees?
Whether or not Mr Gennarini's comments were right about everything, I think that perhaps getting bogged down in semantic to-ing and fro-ing over who-said-what-and-what-he-meant-or-might-have-meant is a trifle counterproductive. If we must look at it that way, then I think it's interesting that respondants on Amy Welborn's blog seem to largely think that Mr Gennarini had the better of Mr Akin.
What seems to me to be important, and which is certainly interesting me, is that what the Pope has said about the whole 'Arinze letter' affair is in a very gentle, paternal and encouraging tone, and in the context of a demonstration of support for the NC Way and the fruits it has borne.
I can't see how this could be any further from the interpretation it has been given on the internet, with statements like 'Benedict cracks down on neocats' and 'with Benedict XVI, playtime is over' etc.

elmo,
Did you read the text of the email that Mr. Gennarini wrote Jimmy?
"Regarding “the spin” thing of which you accuse me rather too hastily :
This is a private letter whose real contents are known only by Cardinal Arinze, Kiko Arguello, Carmen Hernandez and Father Mario Pezzi. Any use of a private document to enforce a public policy is completely illegitimate and improper."
Mr. Gennarini's email to Jimmy was about the contents of the letter (which he admits he didn't read).
Mr. Gennarini tries to define (not sure what authority he thinks he has to do this) the letter as a "instrumentum laboris" and say it has very little authority.
Pope Benedict XVI confirmed the content of the document and the context by asking the NW to be obedient to the norms and the bishops; "By faithful adherence to all Church directives, you will render your apostolate even more effective in harmony and full communion with the Pope and the pastors of dioceses."
If the NW does this they will show that they are a faithful and obedient group.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

Gennarini's response wasn't to the Vatican's letter. He was responding to the media reports that were mischaracterizing the Neocatechumenal Way's practices. Jimmy Akin and the rest have been responding to Gennarini as if he was reacting to the Vatican. He wasn't.

elmo-
I read the article you linked.
I don't think Jimmy was commenting on Il Giornale's characterization of the NCW.
Rather, he was careful to comment on the text of the letter itself, and Mr. Gennarini's response to it.
Even in the article you cited, it is pointed out that Rome has asked the NCW to make several adjustments to their current liturgical practices (for example, receiving the Eucharist while seated).
This is not an attack on the NCW.
I, for one, hope they make the necessary adjustments and go on to great success. On the whole they sound like a sincere and devout group of folks.

Except the argument was NOT made

Yeah that whole argument is kind of like all those people who said the catechism was published for the Bishops....

The Tablet reports that Il Giornale has retracted some of its initial reporting on the letter, saying that it had been mistaken in some of its statements about the Neocatechumenal Way's practices.
http://www.thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/citw.cgi/past-0...

elmo,
Mr. Gennarini wrote directly to Jimmy. Jimmy responded to all of his claims. Jimmy has from the beginning based his thoughts on the actual text of the letter.
Pope Benedict affirmed the context of the letter by asking the NW to "...attentively observe these norms, which are based on liturgical texts approved by the Church. By faithful adherence to all Church directives, you will render your apostolate even more effective, in harmony and full communion with the Pope and the pastors of dioceses."
Mr. Gennarini should have read the actual document before commenting.
Take care and God bless.
J+M+J

I think many observers, including Jimmy Akin, are misapprehending Mr. Gennarini's comments in that Zenit interview. It was the negative spin in reporting by Magister and Tornielli that he was clearly reacting to, not to the letter itself, which Gennarini admitted he had not seen.