A Mormon President?

by Jimmy Akin on March 23, 2006

in Other Religions

Feddie over at Southern Appeal has

AN INTERESTING POST ON WHETHER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR MITT ROMNEY MIGHT BE THE GOP’S PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IN 2008.

The post concerns, among other things, the fact that Romney is a Mormon, and there is a question of whether the Republican party’s base will support him enough for him to be the nominee–and, if not, how Mormon Republicans will react to that.

I’m not a Republican. I’m not a member of any political party–nor do I want to be. But I do have some thoughts on this issue.

I don’t know whether the Republican base is willing to support Romney enough to make him the ’08 nominee (though I doubt it, for a variety of reasons, including the fact he’s apparently a bit soft on life issues–which is common for Mormons). Nor do I know how Mormon Republicans might perceive this or what action they might take.

But I do know this: Mitt Romney is not going to be president.

Even if he’s put up against a polarizing figure like Hillary Clinton, he’s not going to be president.

Why?

Because the nation is too narrowly divided at the moment. George Bush lost the popular vote in ’00 because of the drunk driving issue that surfaced at the last minute and caused a percentage of Evangelical voters to get disillusioned with him and stay home on Election Day. He easily could have lost the popular vote (and the electoral vote) if his opponent in ’04 hadn’t been such a walking disaster of a candidate.

Things are just too tight right now for a Republican presidential candidate to be able to get into office if a significant chunk of the Evangelical or Catholic vote decides to just stay home.

Having a Mormon on the ticket is just the thing to cause that to happen.

Sure, many Evangelicals and Catholics will hold their nose and vote for a Mormon if the alternative is an abortion harpy like Hillary. Many would conclude that, as bad as having a polytheist with aspirations to godhood would be as Commander In Chief, it’s something that must be endured for the sake of the babies who’ll get killed through the extension of the abortion holocaust.

That’s assuming Roe is still in place in ’08, which it may not be. If it’s not then Evangelicals and Catholics have even LESS incentive to vote for a Mormon.

But while many would vote for him, many would also stay home.

Think about it from the perspective of the stay-homers: "Despite claims to the contrary, Mormons are not just other Christians. They’re not Christians at all. They are polytheists who themselves believe that they can become gods, running planets or universes with billions of people worshipping them for all eternity," the stay-homers would say. "Worse, they are polytheists with aspirations to godhood who ARE MASQUERADING AS CHRISTIANS, saying that true Christianity IS polytheism with the possibility of becoming the god of your own planet or universe."

"Can you imagine what it would do to validate Mormonism in the public eye if a Mormon were elected president?" the stay-homers would say. "It would cause VAST numbers of people–all over the world–would be duped into thinking that Mormons are Christians and that their religion is ‘okay.’ Many would even convert."

That’s something that is so frightening a prospect that a significant number of Evangelicals and Catholics will conclude–no matter who the opposing nominee is–is simply unacceptable, even if it means delaying the end of the abortion holocaust.

I’m not saying that such folks would be right or wrong. I’m simply saying that they exist–and that they exist in significant enough numbers to cause the Republicans to lose the election.

Mormons may be electable as governors in states like Utah, where Mormons are a majority, or Massachusetts, where people don’t take religion seriously. But you need more than Utah and Massachusetts to win the presidency as a Republican.

You also need Georgia and the Carolinas and Mississippi and Louisiana and Texas and Arkansas and Tennessee and Kentucky and Oklahoma and all kinds of places like that where they take religion much more seriously and where Mormons are only a tiny percentage of the state population.

There’s also the collateral loss of votes from the fact that a Mormon standardbearer would depress the base.

The Republican base depends heavily on Evangelicals and Catholics to give money, get out the vote, and talk up their candiates. If a significant chunk of the base is holding their noses about their nominee, that’s going to have an effect. Even if hardcore partisans are willing to hold their noses and vote for a Mormon, they won’t be excitedly and enthusiastically behind him. They won’t be motivated to give money or put up yard signs or make phone calls or stuff envelopes, or what have you. The energized get-out-the-vote effort that won the election for Bush in ’04 simply won’t be there for a Mormon.

In his post, Feddie remarks that Mormons are important allies in the culture war. That’s true. We need all the votes we can get to end abortion, and while the Mormon church is softer on abortion than it should be, Mormons are important allies in the fight to end abortion.

But there’s a difference between having someone as an ally and having him as a leader. Coalitions need all kinds of people as allies who wouldn’t be acceptable as leaders. That’s the nature of things.

And there are many Evangelicals and Catholics who would find a polytheist who is open to the idea of his own eventual godhood to be unacceptable as a leader.

Enough to cost the Republicans the election.

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Nev1-nev.blackman@sympatico.ca
does the book of mormon entice lucifer to pass judgement on heaven becuase there is no language for I know God?

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"The Catholic Church IS the Church Christ founded, and the gates of hell - include Joseph Smith and his demonic minions -shall not prevail against it."
What a good message a member of the "Church Christ founded" is sending. Good job truly portraying your faith by degrading the nicest and most moral people there are. You sound like a winner!

"The Catholic Church IS the Church Christ founded, and the gates of hell - include Joseph Smith and his demonic minions -shall not prevail against it."
What a good message a member of the "Church Christ founded" is sending. Good job truly portraying your faith by degrading the nicest and most moral people there are. You sound like a winner!

"The Catholic Church IS the Church Christ founded, and the gates of hell - include Joseph Smith and his demonic minions -shall not prevail against it."
What a good message a member of the "Church Christ founded" is sending. Good job truly portraying your faith by degrading the nicest and most moral people there are. You sound like a winner!

"The Catholic Church IS the Church Christ founded, and the gates of hell - include Joseph Smith and his demonic minions -shall not prevail against it."
What a good message a member of the "Church Christ founded" is sending. Good job truly portraying your faith by degrading the nicest and most moral people there are. You sound like a winner!

"The Catholic Church IS the Church Christ founded, and the gates of hell - include Joseph Smith and his demonic minions -shall not prevail against it."
What a good message a member of the "Church Christ founded" is sending. Good job truly portraying your faith by degrading the nicest and most moral people there are. You sound like a winner!

"The Catholic Church IS the Church Christ founded, and the gates of hell - include Joseph Smith and his demonic minions -shall not prevail against it."
What a good message a member of the "Church Christ founded" is sending. Good job truly portraying your faith by degrading the nicest and most moral people there are. You sound like a winner!

Not wanting to take a strong stand on either side of that issue, but is it not clear that religious beliefs are a part of a person's character? I for one would not be thrilled with a polytheist as President, though that is only one part of his "character." To take an extreem example, if he were a Satanist I am sure you would be hesitant about him. If being a Satanist would be a major concern, would being a polytheist be at least a minor concern?
Even if you are right in not thinking someone being a Mormon is very relevent, if I were you I would wonder what made me so repulsed by the idea of someone taking religious belief into consideration in evaluating a politician.

Isn't this America? Where a man is judged by his character, and not his religious beliefs?
After hearing some of these comments, it sounds like a good portion of the people here want a theocracy.
All this religious crap for a political race should have died with Kennedy, but I see it is still alive and well (which sickens me.)

Gotcha. I said "Every Docterine should be prayed over to determine accuracy" but in the same arguement used the term "Cannonical" which would imply infalliability. I can see why you would think that would be contradictory. Forgive me for being unclear.
While every peice of Mormon theology can and should be questioned, some can be trusted a bit more than others. The Bible, The Book Of Mormon, the Docterine and Covenants are obviously given a lot of weight. But we do not believe that there is any point that you can stop verifying ( through prayer and subsequent personal revelation) the accuracy of the revealed word. The book of Mormon itself ivites us to pray concerning its veracity.
So say for example Gordon B. Hinkley ( Prophet of God ) said that 2+2=11. It is my responsability to then pray and determine whether the prophet was speaking the truth or whether he has some erroneous oppinions about sums. If I pray and the spirit tells me that that is not the case it does not invallidate his authority or his capacity as a prophet, but when he is speaking by the spirit the spirit confirms what he has to say, if he is speaking as a man then he is as falliable as any of the rest of us.
Concerning your observation of the "Fluidity" of Mormon Docterine, I would argue that that isnt the case. The core of the chuch ( Faith, Repentance, Baptism, The Gift of the Holy Ghost, and that a restoration of the Priesthood was neccessary to accomlish these things) is very immutable. It was established by Christ and in my experience as a missionary was confirmed by the Holy Spirit to anyone that earnestly asked. But as Christ says anything that is more or less than this cometh of evil. I am afraid that that even our best and brightest have occassionaly swam out into the deep waters of speculation, but their musings are not docterine and must be taken with a grain of salt, if they are to be taken at all.
What you see as a fatal flaw, is in my mind the greatest thing about the Church. Our Chruch was formed because a 14 year old boy had the faith and courage to ask God which church was true with the belief that a loving God would not leave him in ignorance. Each faithful member of the church should approach the Gospel and his religion with this same inquisitiveness. We each need to find out for ourselves, just as Joseph did, whether or not this church is true. This inquiry is not an event but a process, and each new "docterine" that we encounter needs to me examined with this same scrutiny.
And as I said before I pray that Mitt's campaign is successful. I think he is the best candidate we have at the moment, but also because the lies that have been told about us will not stand up in the light of scrutiny. And the speculative ideas that some hold, that have formed a barrier between us and other churches will shatter away when brought to light.

I do appreciate your post, Forscience, as well as your demeanor.
I was not aware of how - fluid? - Mormon doctrine can be.

"Every member including the Prophet has the right to be wrong. And every docterine, announcement and proclamation should be prayed about by the individual church member for confirmation of its accuracy."
"Additionally claims that mormons believe that they will get their own Universe to Lord over actually contradicts Cannonical Mormon doctrine"
Aren't these two statements just a bit self-contadictory? Or WAY contradictory?
If the first statement is true, then I think that would be a pretty much fatal flaw in any meaningful Mormon theology.

I doubt that my comments will get read I am pretty far down on this forum but as a Mormon I wanted to respond to the challenge given earlier in the post.
Are Mormons Polytheists? Yes.
We believe that God the Father God the Son and the Holy Spirit are three seperate and distinct beings with independant bodies minds and wills. They are unified in intent and goals, but are in fact seperate beings. Those are the only ( Big G) Gods we believe in. But according to my count that makes 3 so that makes us polytheists.
Was God a mortal man? Probably not. Did he ever sin? Definately not.
This one is much trickier to answer, not because I want to mince words or be an apologist, but because there is little written on the subject in the actual Cannon. The LDS church's structure is set up dramatically different from that of the Catholic Church. In the Catholic church if the Pope says something it is pretty much docterine (as far as my understanding goes). The same is not the case in the LDS church. Every member including the Prophet has the right to be wrong. And every docterine, announcement and proclamation should be prayed about by the individual church member for confirmation of its accuracy. That is the reason why we "vote" on the revelations and confirmations that are brought before the church. It is so each of us can say "God has revealed to me by his holy spirit that this is a good idea and I will support it". The flip side of this is that sources such as McConkie's "Mormon Docterine" "The Journal of Discourses" and even the "King Follet Discourse" given by Joeseph Smith himself are in fact NOT ANY MORE DOCTERINAL THAN THIS POST! And all of the statements about the "Manhood of God" are from sources simmilar to the ones mentioned. In the same vein the idea of "Deification" is also not Docterinal. We believe that we will continue to learn and progress after this life, but all Cannonical Mormon sources say that we will become (small g) gods. They also specifically state that we will retain the same relationship of adoration and worship of God that we experience here on earth. In my mind that excludes the possability of becoming ominscient or omnipotant (despite what evangelicals claim and optamistic Mormons hope). Additionally claims that mormons believe that they will get their own Universe to Lord over actually contradicts Cannonical Mormon doctrine (see the articles of Faith for that one).
That being said a lot of Mormons believe differently than me, but like I said we all have the right to be wrong (including Brigham Young).
But Back onto the subject of Mitt. I like him, and will vote for him. I think he will likely give us a constructionist Supreme court justice and that is more important to me than his religion. I also think that if he does run the explanation given above about our beliefs will be plastered all over the media and will finally let people either drop their predgudices of us, or adopt new predgudices that are at least based on fact.

/* It is helpful to remember that LDS folks are not monolithic in their beliefs, either. :-)
*/
That's true. Although, to be fair, the LDS church often acts more like a corporation than other churches (which often act somewhat like franchises). I don't mean that from a funding standpoint, but rather from the standpoint that if a student at a university's school of theology wants to be a Baptist minister, he can open his own church and attract his own congregation, so long as he teaches certain Baptist doctrines. OTOH, the LDS leadership assigns a local member to be the bishop in a particular neighborhood for five years, and gives him handbooks and training and a budget to follow.
Even so, there are issues that have been authoritatively answered, and issues that people like to talk about. This happens in the Catholic church as well, but over the course of 2000 years +/- a lot more issues have been hashed out in great detail.
/* The way I have come to understand Catholic teaching is that the "image of God" in which we were created is not in any sense a physical resemblance, owing to the fact that God has no body.
*/
I served as a missionary in Brazil, and I was constantly reminded that Brazil is the largest Catholic country. While I own a copy of the cathecism (in Portuguese), I'm the first to realize my understanding of Catholic teaching is not first rate. Even so, yes, we disagree on "image of God" and the nature of Christ's resurrection, among other things.
When I returned from Brazil, however, I remember working side-by-side with Catholic organizations to get California's Proposition 22 (Defense of Marriage Act) passed.
Now, in the spirit of full disclosure, after writing my previous post, I remembered a scripture that talks about gods other than God the Father: Doctrine & Covenants 132:34-37 (http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/132#34). This is part of the revelation regarding plural marriage, and the portion I'm focusing on begins by discussing how the Lord can give different commandments at different times in history. The example given is that God commanded Abraham to kill Isaac, and Abraham's willingness to do so was a good thing, even though there is a commandment against killing people. This is important because we belive that, unless otherwise commanded, plural marriage is wrong (see Jacob 2:27, 30 http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/2#27).
The part I'm focusing on in this scripture is the end of D&C 132:37: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob "have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods."
A full treatment of this is beyond the scope of a comment on a blog, but it's important to note that this states clearly that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have received full exaltation. This is apparently the reason they are labeled "gods," although what they do as gods isn't really talked about in this scripture. Of course most Mormons remember God promised Abraham eternal posterity, more numerous than the stars or the sands of the shore, etc., and tie this directly to "we'll have kids forever."
However, some recent discussions I've had on this subject have me rethinking this first reaction. Even so, it's something I wasn't thinking about in my previous comment.

Thanks, Max.
It is helpful to remember that LDS folks are not monolithic in their beliefs, either. :-)
The way I have come to understand Catholic teaching is that the "image of God" in which we were created is not in any sense a physical resemblance, owing to the fact that God has no body.
He created us "after His likeness" in different ways; freewill, an eternal spirit, and (importantly) also in the fact that we each exist as part of a family. A man does exist as an individual, but mankind comes about and subsists in families. No families = no mankind.
Father, Mother and Child in some way reflect the fundamental structure (the "image") of the Trinity. A loving family presents a picture of God to the world. Divorce, adultery, fornication, artificial contraception and human cloning all distort the image of God in which mankind was created. Alot of other things do, too, but these all relate to God's image in the family.
So the complementarity of the sexes is part of the image of God. JPII had a great deal to say about this in his Theology of the Body.

OK, for the record, I wasn't driven away, and I did not feel offended. Some of my posts could have been taken in a somewhat offensive manner after the Internet stripped them of any emotion or visual cues. I simply felt that the discussion wasn't progressing and I usually take weekends off.
Anyhow.
For those curious as to why so many early LDS leaders made a big deal about God being Christ's father in a very real way, let me mention that for a good amount of time the Reorganized LDS Church (now known as the Community of Christ) made some statements that the LDS leaders took to mean that Christ was the Son of the Holy Spirit. I've never spoken to an RLDS member, so I really don't know if they taught this. Either way, this lead to a big emphasis on Christ's physical parentage.
/* Although none of the LDS posters answered my question as to whether LDS doctrine: (1) holds that multiple gods exist and (2) that God the Father was once a mortal man.
*/
Yes, we were somewhat distracted by abortion and Christ's parentage.
I am not aware of any LDS scriptures that state God was once mortal, that there are other gods that we don't worship, and/or that we become gods in the eternities. I have heard many opinions to that effect, but I've also heard opinions directly opposite to this. The main source for these opinions is the King Follett sermon, which does say if we saw God today, we would recognize him as a man. That's not surprising, given that God created man in his own image way back in Genesis.
I guess it's clear that we believe God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are each separate beings, and are each gods as well (this is definitely one of the biggest bones of contention between the LDS church and other religions). So in a strict sense, we would say that at least three gods exist. I'm not aware of any scriptures speaking about gods aside from these three, but the main reason for that is that even if such gods existed, they would have no bearing on our salvation. Our salvation can only come through Jesus Christ.
But looking back to the Big Three, it's clear that the Holy Spirit (even though he's a god) has a very different role than Christ, who (even though he's a god) has a very different role that God the Father. So I don't expect every good person to eventually create their own worlds.
I can say, without reservation, that we believe God, Christ and the Holy Spirit created more than just our world. The Pearl of Great Price states that they created world without end. Because we were created in God' image, I've always assumed any other "intelligent life" on those worlds would look just like us -- created in God's image as well. Even so, I enjoy reading science fiction stories about all those strange critters like Klingons or Banthas, etc.

For those interested in LDS v. Catholic doctrine, Brad Haas' blog has a post relating to whether Mormons should be considered Christians- this is probably a better place to take these topics, since we all have seemed to digress off-topic. His blog is at http://blog.defensorveritatis.net/

"He is... the firstborn over all creation."
That 'firstborn' is referring to his legal status as 'primogeniture', as it were. He is the Son to whom God has given all things as inheritance.
It is NOT used in the sense that of all creatures he was the first one born.

Yes LDS doctrine confirms that Christ Jesus was the first born spirit child of God the Father.

Time, I believe, is ordinarily considered a measure of change. Therefore, accepting this definition, if God is in fact changeless, the answer to your question is no. If God changes, the answer to your question is yes. If God was a mortal at one time, the answer to your question is yes. If he took a heavenly wife at some time, the answer is yes (the Heavenly Father's sealing to a wife would be a change of sorts). If God created all things out of nothing, both spirit and matter, time would commence at the time of the Creation.

Sure. But I don't think the "born" vs. "created" is t he issue (I was born but I was also created, after all). I guess the question should be whether the LDS beleive that Jesus was the first born of the Heavenly Father's sprititual children. Was there a time when the Heavenly Father existed but Jesus did not? I think the answer is in the affirmative. The LDS posters can correct me if they think I am wrong.

By contingency I mean that under LDS doctrine, Jesus is contingent in the sense that he does not need to be- the fact that he was at one time created (and therefore did not exist) shows that this is so. Under Catholic doctrine, although the Son cannot be without the Father, the Father is never without the Son. Under Catholic doctrine, neither of these persons (as well as the Holy Spirit for that matter) ever existed independent of one another. We consider God to be the Holy Trinity and that all three persons always existed in this Trinity. I am digressing off the topic again, but wanted to address the poster's question. Maybe we should wait for a post from Jimmy specifically regarding LDS v. Catholic doctrine for a more in-depth discussion of these issues.

OK. Here is LDS doctrine, and what Christ said of Himself. He is the Son of God.
OK. This is what that means. God is His Father. Mary is His mother.
OK. This is how it could happen. The Holy parents had sex. (Is there something un-Holy about sex?) or. . . Mary was inseminated with the seed of the Father without sex, that is the seed was put into her in another way. (Artifical insemination is not complicated and is very common. In-vitro fertization means that the sperm and ovum join outside the body and after conception the zygote is then placed into the woman. That is the terminology as I have heard it used.)
Elohim I believe means something like "Chief of the Gods." And yes LDS are polytheists if you like. They do believe that Jesus is the Son of the Father.
That God was once a man is not really official LDS doctrine. However in some sense the term Man is applied as a name of diety. By the way the fact that all Mankind are children of God implies that the terms God and Man are related.

Well, NFC, I am the worst about "chasing rabbits" in the combox, and sooner or later any discussion of Romney will probably come down to a debate about religion.
I thought maybe you weren't aware of Jimmy's rules.
For everyone who ain't... see "Da Rulz" over in the PERMAPOSTS section in the left-hand column.

Fair enough. I will rest the issue. Sorry about the cut and paste. I was not aware of the rule. Anyways, I have strayed off topic and will try to keep on topic from now on.

NFC-
You may not be aware, but cutting and pasting large amounts of text into the combox is a violation of Jimmy's blog rules.
It's also just bad form, especially when it's off-topic (I didn't see any reference to Mitt Romney).
I know it is difficult not to discuss Mormon doctrine in relation to Romney, but if you want to paste in text, please isolate the passages that are most relevant and keep it brief.
I agree that it is not the possibility of God sinning in his former existence that is the kicker, it is the idea that God was once NOT God. God, to BE God, has no potential, does not change and has no parts. If Mormons pray to a God that was once mortal, changeable or limited in any sense, then they are not praying to the same God that we are.

"I am no expert, by any means, on the Holy Trinity, but it seems that the LDS idea of Jesus is very different from the Catholic idea and that Jesus is a contingent and created being of a completely different nature from the Heavenly Father."
Of course, I meant that Jesus is considered a contingent being under LDS doctrine, not Catholic.

Thanks for the post, although I do not understand the ambiguity or speculative nature of the LDS idea about the possibiloity of many gods-the Fourth Chapter of the Book of Abraham clearly sets forth the creation with multiple gods in mind, please see the following:
"AND then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the a Gods•, borganized• and formed the cheavens• and the earth.
2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and adarkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods bwas• brooding upon the face of the waters.
3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.
4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was abright•; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.
5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until morning they called anight•; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.
6 And the Gods also said: Let there be an aexpanse• in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters.
7 And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered.
8 And the Gods called the expanse, Heaven. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and this was the second atime• that they called night and day.
9 And the Gods ordered, saying: Let the awaters• under the heaven be gathered together unto bone• place, and let the earth come up dry; and it was so as they ordered;
10 And the Gods pronounced the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, pronounced they, aGreat• Waters; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.
11 And the Gods said: Let us prepare the earth to bring forth agrass•; the herb yielding seed; the fruit tree yielding fruit, after his kind, whose seed in itself yieldeth its own likeness upon the earth; and it was so, even as they ordered.
12 And the Gods organized the aearth• to bring forth grass from its own seed, and the herb to bring forth herb from its own seed, yielding seed after his kind; and the earth to bring forth the tree from its own seed, yielding fruit, whose seed could only bring forth the same in itself, after his kind; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.
13 And it came to pass that they numbered the days; from the evening until the morning they called night; and it came to pass, from the morning until the evening they called day; and it was the third time.
14 And the Gods organized the alights• in the expanse of the heaven, and caused them to divide the day from the night; and organized them to be for signs and for seasons, and for days and for years;
15 And organized them to be for lights in the expanse of the heaven to give light upon the earth; and it was so.
16 And the Gods organized the two great lights, the agreater• light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; with the lesser light they set the stars also;
17 And the Gods set them in the expanse of the heavens, to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to cause to divide the light from the adarkness.
18 And the Gods watched those things which they had aordered until they obeyed.
19 And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that it was night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that it was day; and it was the fourth time.
20 And the Gods said: Let us prepare the waters to bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that have life; and the fowl, that they may fly above the earth in the open expanse of heaven.
21 And the Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great awhales•, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. And the Gods saw that they would be obeyed, and that their plan was good.
22 And the Gods said: We will bless them, and cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas or agreat• waters; and cause the fowl to multiply in the earth.
23 And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and it was the fifth time.
24 And the Gods prepared the earth to bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind; and it was so, as they had said.
25 And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth the beasts after their kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind; and the Gods saw they would obey.
26 And the Gods took acounsel among themselves and said: Let us go down and bform man in our cimage•, after our likeness; and we will give them dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So the aGods• went down to organize man in their own bimage, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.
28 And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And the Gods said: Behold, we will give them every herb bearing seed that shall come upon the face of all the earth, and every tree which shall have fruit upon it; yea, the fruit of the tree yielding seed to them we will give it; it shall be for their ameat•.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, behold, we will give them life, and also we will give to them every green herb for meat, and all these things shall be thus organized.
31 And the Gods said: We will do everything that we have said, and organize them; and behold, they shall be very obedient. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and they numbered the asixth• time."
As to you second ideas, that Catholics believe in multiple gods, I believe it is without foundation: (1) Mary is never to be worshipped, although she is venerated and there is a belief that, because of her close relationship with God, her intercession on our behalf is frequently effective. Mary, it should be clear, is a created and contingent being and is not worshipped. (2)although God did become incarnate through Jesus, Jesus is not considered a separate god under Catholic doctrine. The following quote from John A. Hardon, S.J., I think, summarizes this concept relatively well:
"He [Jesus]is of the same substance of the Father, which is in the original Greek says that he is "out of the being (ousia) of the Father." This affirms that, unlike mere creatures, who may be said to be from God, his only-begotten Son comes literally out of the Father's own being. Creatures come from God, indeed, because he wills them to exists. Not so the Son of God, who cannot not exist. His existence does not depend on the free will of the Creator. He is God of God, in the sense that he is as much God as the Father, sharing perfectly in the one and same divine nature."
I am no expert, by any means, on the Holy Trinity, but it seems that the LDS idea of Jesus is very different from the Catholic idea and that Jesus is a contingent and created being of a completely different nature from the Heavenly Father.
As to whether, under the LDS view, the Heavenly Father actually sinned during the course of his mortal life is not the issue (although I know that Brigham Young, as the second LDS prophet, taught that the Heavenly Father was Adam, which would mean, of course, that God did in fact sin- I know that the current presidents of the LDS church have attempted to distance themselves from this doctrine and no longer espouse it). The question is whether there was a time where God was not in fact God under the LDS doctrine. The answer appears to be yes.
Thanks for the post.

Whoa, there!
Catholics don't worship Mary. We do pay her reverence and ask for her prayers (as we do all the saints), but she is not to be worshipped because she is one of God's creatures, and only the Creator is to be worshipped. She is not a Goddess and never will be.
Also-
"So to answer the questions, regardless what people (both authority and lay) might have speculated, Mormons beleive that if we live Righteous lives, God will sort it all out in the end."
That's answering the question?

This is a confusing item of doctrine to many people. Mostly, because, although most mormons don't want to admit, the fact is we just don't know enough at this point. The LDS church states "We believe in everything that has been revealed, is being revealed, or will be revealed"
Basically this means that LDS church beleives in continual revelation and that the mysteries of God will always be explained.
for the first question
1)holds that multiple gods exist
The LDS church beleives in the the passage 1 corithians 8: 5-6
5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him
Now, this passage can be interpreted many ways, however, the lds church understands it to mean that regardless of what may or may not occur, there is one God and one Son. It is more important to focus on that to ensure your eternal salvation. While MANY people speculate, it is just that, speculation.
That brings us to the other question
that God the Father was once a mortal man
the King Follet speech. The issue here is the question of the nature of God. Joseph Smith stated the infamous words as Man is God was; and as God is man shall be; (i.e. glorified)
However, he never said specifically of any crimes, sins, or misdeeds that God might have done. IN fact, we know nothing of this situation. Speculating as to the nature of any incarnate life of God would be just that speculation. It would insulting to claim we knew the answer. Jesus came to the earth, and this is accepted as a fact. So to answer the questions, regardless what people (both authority and lay) might have speculated, Mormons beleive that if we live Righteous lives, God will sort it all out in the end. So we will continue to wait for more revelation.
On a final note, I can never understand why catholics have such a problem with this. Afterall, catholics beleive Jesus came to the earth and was able to interact with people as a man would. They also accept him in the trinity. Catholics accept Mary was woman, and now has a place as mother of God to be worshipped and prayed too. The question of multiple gods could well be asked to catholics.(and often is by evangelicals) Surprisingly, Mormons and catholics have many similiarities if only we could do away with nearsighted sectarian issues.
So a mormon poster did answer you..and yes, I do think mitt will be a good candidate but ultimately will loose to Mccain. A more conservative candidate will be selected to the post of VP for vote securing.But I am still going to convince everyone in arkansas to vote for him.

Max,
I guess the point I was trying to make was that the phrase "it was the result of natural action" was amobiguous and I more or less accepted the possibility that that phrase could mean that the birth was natural as opposed to the conception- I am not arguing against you on this point if that is what you are trying to say.
Although none of the LDS posters answered my question as to whether LDS doctrine: (1) holds that multiple gods exist and (2) that God the Father was once a mortal man.
Anyway, thanks for the dialogue Max. I was not trying to offend you and I hope you stop by again sometime.

It seems a bit silly that we now live in a climate where everything is poltics and permanent campaigning 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. We're trying to handicap a primary race that happens in 2 years while everyone pretty much agrees that there's no great way to predict what's going to be happening in the midterm elections later this year.
That said, I don't know if Romney's religion would be that big of a liability for him. Ignoring all the other factors of right, wrong, etc. it seems there would be a large number of people who would vote for him in the general election just because they want to vote against the other guy. I just can't see that the issue would be a make or break deal for the entire election.
I could maybe see how it might cause problems in the primary, but he really does seem like one of the best options out there right now.

Two at once (but this will probably be my last post here):
/* [NFC] ''The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers''
*/
The "He" here both partook of flesh and was begotten of his Father. That is, we're talking about Jesus. So "partook of flesh" means "was born into a mortal body." Nothing unusual here.
/* [bill912] Joseph Smith: "Jesus Christ is the heir of this Kingdom--the only begotten of the Father according to the flesh."
*/
We still say that. Mormons believe we are all "children of God." I know some other churches believe the same, I know that many churches don't. Either way, there's a difference between how we are children of God and how Christ is the Son of God. This quotation is about that difference -- our spirits are God's children, while our bodies are our parents' children; only Christ could say that his body was God's child.
/* Brigham Young: "... Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. (Jesus) was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband or Mary, but by another Being. Do you inquire by whom? He was begotten by God our heavenly Father." Journal of Discourses 2:268
*/
Do you disagree that Christ was the Son of God? If he was the Son of God, doesn't it stand to reason that he was not the son of Joseph? Isn't that the meaning of "virgin birth"?
I know, you seem really tied up on the chance that God and Mary had sex. But Mormons *do* believe in the virgin birth, which would rule that out (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 11). The Bible simply says that Mary was overcome with the Spirit, and conceived. My understanding of that is that through what somebody else here called "divine in vitro fertilization" (that is, without sex, but through spiritual means) Mary conceived God's Son.
I understood the Catholic position to be similar. Otherwise, Christ would have only had Mary's DNA. Am I wrong?
/* Joseph F. Smith (speaking to children): "... Now, we are told in Scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer JUST AS JESUS CHRIST WAS BEGOTTEN OF HIS FATHER." Family Home Evening, 1972, 125.
*/
He was speaking to children for crying out loud! What kind of church do you think this is? Why would the head of the church try to work "God had sex" into a speech to children? This, like the first quotation, is only about "Christ was the Son of God, really, truly. You may find people who say that he wasn't completely, truly, honestly the Son of God, but that maybe he had good ideas. Those people are wrong."
If you really want to go to ridiculous lengths, what about all the kids in the audience that were adopted? Was Joseph F. Smith lying to them?

I have a General Handbook from the late '80s that I picked up while a missionary in Brazil (in the late '90s). Anyhow, the three exceptions listed there are the same three listed in the current Church Handbook of Instructions.
But, to explain the exceptions better: they are listed in the chapter on church discipline (eg., excommunication). The LDS church never *encourages* abortion in any case; but in those three cases there will be no church disciplinary action. The bishop will tell the couple to fast and pray and make their own decision (*not* because the bishop thinks that the answer will be "abort, abort, abort" but because any hard decision should be made in spirit of prayer).
*But* members who counsel others to have an abortion, perform abortions, submit to abortions (outside of the three exceptions), pay for abortions, etc. can be excommunicated.
Now, yes, some people consider that soft on abortion. Some consider it incredibly strict. I think it's more strict than what most Americans think is middle of the road.
For the record, the only case I would consider an abortion would be if the mother's life were in danger. In rape, I'd encourage adoption, if the child will not survive past birth, I'd still give the child a few moments of life.

I'm with whoever finds the current crop of potentials from BOTH parties to be really depressing.
Alan Keyes is my guy, but he speaks too plainly to make it in today's political climate.
I DO think it's possible that Hillary could overcome her negatives, especially when Bill goes out stumping for her. This sickens me, but it's true.
Just what are the Republicans going to run on? The Anti-Hillary platform? Not that there's anything wrong with that...
They have shown themselves to be profligate spenders. They (like the Dems) back the Iraq war only as much as they feel they have to. I don't think that the "One More Justice" mantra will be enough to stir up the middle.
Oh well, sometimes the best thing for Republicans is to have a Democrat in office for a bit to remind people of what it is like.
Chances are that I just won't be happy with the next Prez, no matter what I do. I suppose if I lived through Carter, I can stand anything.

Max,
You stated, "In regards to abortion and the "approved exeptions" (for lack of a better term), the "health of the mother" exeption is not necessarily the same exeption that exists in US law. Bishops are taught that they will be held accountable at Judgement Day (seriously) if they misapply these terms."
All due respect, you're missing the point. The numerous exceptions that Mormons allow (and it's not just "health of the mother") are going to alienate a huge number of voters, especially when it comes out in the news (and it will) that the Mormons have changed their views on abortion 3 times in 5 years:
Prior to 1988: Mormon church is anti-abortion (presumably with no exceptions, or so I was told)
1988: "There is no excuse for abortion unless the life of the mother is seriously threatened" (Gospel Principles [a 1988 basic manual for church members], 241.)
1992: "There is seldom any excuse for abortion. The only exceptions are when (1) pregnancy has resulted from incest or rape; (2) the life or health of the woman is in jeopardy in the opinion of competent medical authority; or (3) the fetus is known, by competent medical authority, to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth" (Gospel Principles [1992], 251.)
This is what Jimmy correctly refers to as Mormons being "soft" on abortion.
The point is, those who are staunchly anti-abortion are going to have a problem with a candidate who belongs to a church which not only allows abortion under numerous exceptions, but also seems to keep changing its mind on the subject.

In reality, I don't think the LDS issue will be very big in the general election. Other than Evangelicals, strong liberals (who will not vote Republican anyway), and the Catholics who are probably reading this board, i don't think that most people would care very much whether Romney is LDS. Romney's problem may arise in the primaries, where the LDS factor will be an issue with the southern Evangelicals.

Well, they all have Rudy G. beat I think. You can be a guy and still notice that.

Yeah, but George Allen seems to be even better looking, but then again, I'm a guy, so what do I know?

Perhaps that's all that makes a difference after all- thanks for easing up this discussion Buzz.

Mitt is good looking, that's all the chicks need to know ;)

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