American Papist has an interesting piece up about the upcoming A&E reality show "God or the Girl?", which focuses on young Catholic men discerning possible vocations to the priesthood.
Will this be a good, serious look at the question or will it be evil, Hollywood anti-Catholicism?
GET THE BUZZ.
Author: Jimmy Akin
Jimmy was born in Texas, grew up nominally Protestant, but at age 20 experienced a profound conversion to Christ. Planning on becoming a Protestant seminary professor, he started an intensive study of the Bible. But the more he immersed himself in Scripture the more he found to support the Catholic faith, and in 1992 he entered the Catholic Church. His conversion story, "A Triumph and a Tragedy," is published in Surprised by Truth. Besides being an author, Jimmy is the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to Catholic Answers Magazine, and a weekly guest on "Catholic Answers Live."
View all posts by Jimmy Akin
Should this be “God or the Gr-r-r-r-rl”?
I was impressed by the TODAY show interview. The three young men gave a solid Christian witness and the producer said the show is straight forward and his life is not the same afterwards.
The USCCB has endorsed it, Teresa Tomeo gives it thumbs up and so I am looking forward to it… being a man who is in the discernment phase of my life.
I was impressed by the TODAY show interview. The three young men gave a solid Christian witness and the producer said the show is straight forward and his life is not the same afterwards.
The USCCB has endorsed it and Teresa Tomeo gives it thumbs up,so I am looking forward to it… being a man who is currently in prayer about my vocational formation and discernment.
I happened to turn on The View, an oddity in itself, and saw the segment with the three men giving solid Catholic responses to the inevitable grilling about celibacy. It was a sight I never expected to see on an ABC (or any other mainstream station) talk show and I intend to let the show know that those young men represent the caliber that most of us associate with the priesthood.
It’s going to be on A&E and shown on Good Friday. That’s a warning signal right there. And as for the USCCB– remember the Brokeback Mountain review?
One of these men is/was a FOCUS missionary (Fellowship of Catholic University Students) and a friend of my son, who is also a FOCUS missionary. The Chaplain for FOCUS and the young men themselves have seen the finished product and have endorsed it (I trust them much more than I trust the USCCB – of course, I trust my car mechanic more than I trust the USCCB, but, you know …). The chaplain and other friends of the young man were quite skeptical of what the final treatment would be, but it appears to have been done as well as anyone could have hoped. Anecdotally, it has been said that the producers started out with a kind of ‘reality show’ approach a la “Survivor”, etc., but apparently were won over by the sincerity, authenticity, and thoughtfulness of the young men involved. Unless something evil was done to the show after it was shown to these folks (a far-fetched possibility I would think), it should be well worth the time to watch. It would have the upside of overshadowing the risible ‘Gospel of Judas’ on National Geographic if we all watch A&E instead.
Sorry about the double post above.
Yes, on A & E, but actually, the first episode is on Easter Sunday, not Good Friday.
http://www.godorthegirl.com/
Well, they could have called it “God or the Guy”!
I’ve heard that the title is the worst thing about it… take that for what you will.
The reviews of this program certainly sound hopeful. Gosh on A&E! Who would have thought that they would have given the priesthood a fair shake? Good for them, I plan to watch.
Well, they could have called it “God or the Guy”!
That would be if it were on Bravo, instead of A&E.
The title is unfortunate, because it really doesn’t sum up what discernment is all about, and makes it sound like some sort of contest.
For some of these guys, it may be a question of God AND the girl (if they are called to married state).
I’ve talked to the vocations director for the Diocese of Columbus, who has seen all the episodes — he said it was spectacular and highly recommended it. Our campus Newman Society chaplain saw the first episode and also said it was really good. And I’ve met one of the guys on the show — he lives in a house of Catholic OSU guys that is sort of a mix between monastary and frat house (without the debauchery), where most of the guys are discerning priestly vocations. I think they’d have balked if this had turned out to be a hack job. Title: bad. Release date: could be better. But the show is supposed to be good (the producers even worked with some diocesan vocation offices to produce an educational video on the priestly vocation using some of the footage from the show — so they can’t be too inimical to the Church).
If they were Eastern Catholics: Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Melkite, Romanian, et al; they could get married and become priests.
Since a priest is married to the Bride of Christ, he gets both God and the “girl”.
Wait..A and E is putting this up? The saqme channel that broadcast all sorts of documentaries against Christianity? ? I am at best skeptical. Aren’t they going to do a special on the Gospel of Judas?
These kinds of stations will air anything that makes them money. If it is an attack on the Catholic Church, fine. If it respects the Catholic Church, fine. As long as there is an audience.
Father David Nuss gave it a thumbs down in the National Review Online:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/nuss200604130747.asp
“For a man called to the priesthood, marriage is not an opponent or competitor, but an entirely different call from God. The priest renounces something good and natural — namely, marriage and biological paternity — and gives himself entirely to the spouse of Christ, the Church, and to spiritual paternity.”
His main beef seems to be the innaccuracy of the show’s depiction of the discernment process.
Anyone watch Larry King Thursday nite? Larry had one of the young men in the show on with Fr. Manning and another Evangelical convert who became a priest and he was the best. Larry also saw fit to include John MacArthur (what a nasty piece of work), and a disgruntled ex-Priest who decided to take off get married and start some new community. From what I can see the show looks very interesting and I see the New Evangenlization at work. John MacArthur really ticks me off though he kept misleding the audience with his bible interpretation of one verse on bishops to marry one wife. Doesn’t this guy realize people in that time and place had several wifes there is nowhere in the bible that instructs a person must marry. One high note was toward the end since the Catholic voice was reminding constantly that St. Paul did not marry I think Mr. MacArthur was left chewing on the bit so long he couldn’t resist in saying we don’t know that and quit possible St. Paul was married lol big deal. MacArthur seems to play to the masses with his false representations I know of married Catholic priests as convert Anglican clery, as Eastern Rite priests, and as widowers who were once married and totally understand the married live and its commitments. God and girl instead of God or Girl I feel is extremely difficult to handle in my opinion.
PS that Fr Manning is too nice for Larry King Live he was outdone by the younger acolytes whats the problem with that diocese they need a better representative anyway maybe his chartity will shine through because his doctrinal presentation is thumbs down
That other convert priest featured on Larry King (Still A-) Live last night was Fr. John Bartunek, LC.
Was anyone else as impressed as I was by the red haired young man? This kid was great!. At the very end of the show, when the discussion turned to whether or not Christ actually founded a Church, MacArthur’s assertion that He did not was, incredibly, seconded by Fr. Manning! Just when you thought that was the end of it, this 20-something kid piped in, and cleaned the clocks of both the sour-faced Evangelical, and the confused Fr. Manning. Stunning!
Thanks for naming Fr. John Bartunek I’ve just downloaded his story from EWTN JourneyHome audio files. He was fantastic as was the young guy in the A&E reality show. I know this isn’t the place to whine about John MacArthur but I’ve seen him before and he always looks angry. He is determined to chime in on Catholicism something he is no expert on. I have to assume Larry wanted some controversy hence the appearance of this snake oil salesman. I heard Mr. MacArthur is teaching more and more like a Unitarian preacher not sure if this is true please correct me anyone if I’m wrong. Anyways I did love the way both him and Manning were corrected on official Catholic doctrine regarding the creation of HIS (Jesus) Church.
I wonder if there’s some way to get the video of the LKL show…
I think you can just call CNN. This is the kind of victorious Catholic apearance on nationally broadcast programming that lots of people should see
Hey I’d love a copy, btw papist great site I found Jimmy’s site via yours keep up the great work! Tell those guy men on God or the Girl to keep going and “preach the work brothers”
I’d love to contribute to your site
I really do not care for Larry King nor his show on CNN but he did have the following interview this past Thursday night on the “God or The Girl” which you may want to read…
April 13, 2006
• God or the Girl?
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI…/13/lkl.01.html
———
Also (Vote Here)
Do You Plan on Watching “God or The Girl” Beginning Easter Sunday Night?
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=1479142#post1479142
The title “God or the Girl?” is incorrect – it is not a choice between God or woman! God is supreme Spirit: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end” (Revelation 22:13). He is always there, always with us, and always loving us! God made woman for man because it is not good for man to be alone – see Sacred Scripture: Genesis 2:18, 24 and Mark 10:6-9. The Bible is God’s Word, it is truth, and God’s will is apparent, evident, understandable, unmistakable. By refusing men their God given rights, we reject God’s will. Along with, by refusing man a natural relationship, it suppresses his feelings, which is unhealthy, unnatural, and damaging. In Pope Benedict XVI’s Encyclical Letter Deus Caritas Est, he states: “The more the two (eros and agape), in their different aspects, find a proper unity in the one reality of love, the more the true nature of love in general is realized…man cannot live by oblative, descending (agape) love alone. He cannot always give, he must also receive. Anyone who wishes to give love must also receive love as a gift…when the two dimensions are totally cut off from one another, the result is a caricature or at least an impoverished form of love.” Celibacy is neither fundamental to the priesthood nor dogmatic to the Church. This rule was not there in the beginning and will not be in the end. It is, simply, a church rule that must be abolished, nullified. See the truth – open your heart not your mind!
“…God’s will is apparent, evident, understandable, unmistakeable.” Which is why there are over 30,000 “Bible-only” denominations teaching contradictory doctrine’s using the same Bible.
“…open your heart, not your mind.” God gave us heart to feel with, not to think with. Hearts do not have IQs.
God or the Girl was great – well done and kudos to A&E for being respectful and balanced on their portrayal of 4 young, NORMAL, contemporary men – just my guess but this show has the power to produce many vocations to the priesthood and religious life. Tune in if you haven’t for the rest of the epidodes, hopefully they will be as great!
To MARIE: Jesus himself spoke in the Gospels of being called to celibacy for the sake of His Kingdom – read the following from Matthew 19:10-12:
10 [His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, but only those to whom that is granted. 12 Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”
Also read St. Paul’s very good explanation of remaining unmarried to serve the Lord wholeheartedly for His Kingdom in 1 Corinthians 7:7-8 and 32-35. (read all of chpt 7 for the context).
Celibacy is a supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit and is given to those whom the Lord calls – to the rest is given the gift of Holy Marriage. God bless
Response to LAURA:
Jesus is referring to divorce not celibacy. See Jesus’ complete words below. See also Deuteronomy 24:1-4.
Matthew 19:1-12:
1 When Jesus finished these words, he left Galilee and went to the district of Judea across the Jordan.
2 Great crowds followed him, and he cured them there.
3 Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?”
4 He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
7 They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?”
8 He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9 I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.”
10 [His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, but only those to whom that is granted.
12 Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”
In the 1st letter of Paul to the church of Corinth, he writes in a passionate manner. Paul wrote with the belief that Jesus’ return was imminent. And, thus, yes, it would be better to remain single if you were single. This, however, was not the case. Jesus did not return in Paul’s lifetime. If you want to use your mind, think of it in this way…If all were to remain single from that moment on in history, this world would cease to exist. Now, use your heart…from the beginning…Matthew 19:4-6.
Celibacy is not a supernatural gift. Celibacy is the condition of being unmarried or abstinence from sexual intercourse. I am unmarried so I am celibate not supernaturally gifted. I am a child of God and I want to follow God’s commandments, this includes not having sexual intercourse until I am married. ALL are called to marriage. It is in marriage that 2 people become ONE flesh, as it states in the Bible. When a man marries, his rib is returned to him and then he and she are ONE, are whole (see Genesis 2:21-24).
If you are Catholic, you know that preventing clergy from marrying was NOT how it was in the beginning, as Jesus states above in Matthew. It is a church rule, a man-made rule, not God’s commandment. NOTE: You will not find Jesus anywhere in the Bible stating, accepting or condoning a man to be forbidden from marriage. Also, you will not find Jesus anywhere in the Bible stating that a priest is married to the church or his congregation. Again, this is a church rule, a man-made rule, not God’s commandment!
Even Pope Benedict XVI acknowledges that man must have both types of love – eros and agape. In his Encyclical Letter Deus Caritas Est, he states: “The more the two (eros and agape), in their different aspects, find a proper unity in the one reality of love, the more the true nature of love in general is realized…man cannot live by oblative, descending (agape) love alone. He cannot always give, he must also receive. Anyone who wishes to give love must also receive love as a gift…when the two dimensions are totally cut off from one another, the result is a caricature or at least an impoverished form of love.”
Seek the truth – open your heart not your mind!
God bless to all!
New American Bible:
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm
Pope Benedict’s XVI’s Encyclical Letter Deus Caritas Est:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html
Marie,
The Church disipline and teaching is clear. See the CCC 1578 and 1579 .
Please note that the CCC quotes the exact passages of Sacred Scripture that Laura did. It is a Church rule which the Church has the God-given authority to bind upon the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
And please read the Da Rulz of Jimmy’s Blog #3.
3. Also because of the format restrictions, everyone must be concise. Don’t go on at length about things. Pasting large amounts of text into the combox also counts as going on at length. Going on at length constitutes rudeness.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Cool dude, Marie! I like ya, your honest! The CCC is not the bible and and not God’s rulz! Stop being brainwashed people! Read the bible cuz it’s God!
The CCC was written by the Church which has God-given authority to teach and preach.
The Word of God comes to us both in Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
And now back to Jimmy’s regularly schedule topic…A&E reality show “God or the Girl?”
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Response to INOCENCIO…
Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3art7.htm
1601 “The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament.”
I. Marriage in God’s Plan
1602 Sacred Scripture begins with the creation of man and woman in the image and likeness of God and concludes with a vision of “the wedding-feast of the Lamb.” Scripture speaks throughout of marriage and its “mystery,” its institution and the meaning God has given it, its origin and its end, its various realizations throughout the history of salvation, the difficulties arising from sin and its renewal “in the Lord” in the New Covenant of Christ and the Church.
Marriage in the order of creation
1603 “The intimate community of life and love which constitutes the married state has been established by the Creator and endowed by him with its own proper laws. . . . God himself is the author of marriage.” The vocation to marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator. Marriage is not a purely human institution despite the many variations it may have undergone through the centuries in different cultures, social structures, and spiritual attitudes. These differences should not cause us to forget its common and permanent characteristics. Although the dignity of this institution is not transparent everywhere with the same clarity, some sense of the greatness of the matrimonial union exists in all cultures. “The well-being of the individual person and of both human and Christian society is closely bound up with the healthy state of conjugal and family life.”
1604 God who created man out of love also calls him to love—the fundamental and innate vocation of every human being. For man is created in the image and likeness of God who is himself love. Since God created him man and woman, their mutual love becomes an image of the absolute and unfailing love with which God loves man. It is good, very good, in the Creator’s eyes. And this love which God blesses is intended to be fruitful and to be realized in the common work of watching over creation: “And God blessed them, and God said to them: ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.'”
1605 Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another: “It is not good that the man should be alone.” The woman, “flesh of his flesh,” his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a “helpmate”; she thus represents God from whom comes our help. “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.” The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been “in the beginning”: “So they are no longer two, but one flesh.”
Marie,
Keep reading
Virginity for the sake of the Kingdom .
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Blessings to all from a Baptist!
I agree with Marie.
Ms/Mr Inocencio: All christian religions can say they have the God given authority to write whatever their traditions are. It doesn’t mean that yours are right and mine wrong. We are all children of God. God loves us all. God died for us all. In the end, not only the catholics are going to the kingdom of heaven!
Peace!
Sally,
Peace be to you also.
Our Blessed Lord handed on his Sacred Authority to the Church He founded upon the Rock.
Since you and I disagree on this subject their has to be a final authority. Our Blessed Lord said when we have a disagreement to try to work it out, if that does not work, take it to the Church. What His Church binds is bound in Heaven what His Church loosens is loosed in Heaven.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Inocencio: You should refer to the bible not a church guide! The BIBLE IS GOD’S WORD THE TRUTH! If you want to promote lifelong virginity, I guess the end of the world is near after all.
Be realistic people!
Ashley,
I would recommend you hear who our Blessed Lord sent with His authority.
Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Because the Church is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” 1Tim 3:15
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
dude, inocencio, chill. you’re graspen at straws now. can you find your ccc comments in the bible? word for word. i don’t think so. no one is rejecten the truth. the truth is God and his word in the bible.
inocencio. i read your what ya put above. the ccc.
1618 Christ is the center of all Christian life. The bond with him takes precedence over all other bonds, familial or social.113 From the very beginning of the Church there have been men and women who have renounced the great good of marriage to follow the Lamb wherever he goes, to be intent on the things of the Lord, to seek to please him, and to go out to meet the Bridegroom who is coming.114 Christ himself has invited certain persons to follow him in this way of life, of which he remains the model:
i don’t see the priests going anywhere but to church and cozy pad afterwards. whaz up w/ dat?
Bob,
The Sacred Scriptures say if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
If you read the CCC you see that every teaching of the Church in no way contridictsthe Sacred Scriptures but authoritatively interprets them. It was the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that decided the canon of Sacred Scripture.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Inocencio,
I’m Catholic and read the Bible and refer to the CCC. The CCC does condrict itself in many places. For instance, marriage in one area and virginity in another and holy orders in another, etc. The Bible is the Word of God and Truth. The CCC is used as a reference. Many Catholics don’t read the CCC or know what it is or even know it exists for that matter. Most Catholics are pew-warmers. They go to church but do not hear the word or follow it. See the Parable of the Seed in Mark 4. We should and must use the Bible as it is the true source of God’s Word.
God Bless,
Ashley
“Authoritatively interprets them.” Amen, Inocencio. When you rely on yourself to interpret scripture, you get over 30,000 different denominations teaching contradictory doctrines, yet basing their teachings on the same Bible. Personal interpretation of scripture is condemned in the Bible(2 Peter 1:20). The Beble teaaches that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth(1 Timothy 3:15).
“teaaches”? “Beble”? I got to proofread more carefully!
Ashley,
Read St. Paul 1Cor 7:38 So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.
The CCC says the same thing in Paragraph 1620.
And again the Word of God comes from both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Hi Bill912,
I hope you have a wonderful Easter!
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Dear Sisters & Brothers in Christ,
I enjoyed reading everyone’s comments and especially the non-Catholics. It’s important to embrace all of God’s children and know that God loves us all equally and died for all of us. In regards to the Bible, when we read, we all read and interpret things differently. We can read one passage over and over again and it have a different meaning for us each time. I believe this is God’s way of speaking to us at different times and situations in our lives. I respect all peoples faiths and embrace all my brothers and sisters. I think the Tower of Babel is a nice way of explaining why we received different tongues and maybe different interpretations of the Bible. In the end, the Gospels are of and about our Lord, Jesus Christ, and his infinite love for us all, all people.
Peace be with you all, now and forever.
Virginia
Virginia,
The fact remains that the Truth cannot contradict itself and since Sacred Scripture is the inerrant Word of God it has to be interpreted correctly and authoritatively when there is a disagreement or we risk heresy and schism.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Dear Inocencio:
I appreciate the many comments you have posted. I completely agree with you in that Sacred Scripture is the inerrant Word of God. This is why I read the Bible faithfully and rely it for the Lord’s will in my life, which he reveals through reading the Bible, adoration, meditation, prayer, and my heart.
Peace be with you,
Virginia
Virgina,
Since you agree that Sacred Scripture is the inerrant Word of God do you also agree that There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Someone above said –
“…by refusing man a natural relationship, it suppresses his feelings, which is unhealthy, unnatural, and damaging.”.
Supressing feelings is unnatural and unhealthy? How about if I, being a married man, “feel” attracted to another woman? How about if, being obese, I “feel” like having another donut? Or another beer?
In arguing against the Church, you have trotted out the most tired of the secular humanist arguments against any kind of reliously grounded moral behavior.
Tim J.
“…by refusing man a natural relationship, it suppresses his feelings, which is unhealthy, unnatural, and damaging.”
I forgot to ask this person if they considered the fact that Christ gave us His own example of celibacy.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
The last guest Larry King had on was Hugh Heffner, now he has a priest on…western industrial society hurry up and self destruct!
Peace be with you all!
I have read through the comments today and to be quite honest, Tim & Incencio, I must agree with Marie.
A good friend of mine married a former priest. He left the priesthood because they fell in love. God is love and love comes unexpectedly and at unexpected times. They are probably one of the most in love couples I know. Their love is truly from God and the purity of it is so rare in today’s society. It was hard for me as a Catholic to see the church treat her the way they did before he left and how they treated him. What happened to the loving, welcoming, and forgiving church(?). In the end, praise the Lord, God’s true will prevailed!
By refusing man a natural relationship, it does suppresses his feelings, which is unhealthy and unnatural. Tim, this has nothing to do with with being a married man. When married, you seek not another person because your mate is a gift from God. You cherish your mate and love them unconditionally and eternally. And, if you are a practicing Catholic and person of faith, the thought of another woman would never enter your mind as it goes againist God and His commandments.
God is Love and Love Prevails!
Have a blessed day!
Beth
Beth,
I will agree and stay faithful to the teachings of the Church.
If it is so unnatural why is it the example our Blessed Lord gave us as our High Priest?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
“In the end,praise the Lord, God’s true will prevailed!”
Disobedience and the breaking of holy vows(which he made as a priest) are never God’s will.
“And, if you are a practicing Catholic and person of faith, the thought of another woman would never enter your mind as it goes against God and His commandments.”
How does being a practicing Catholic and person of faith make one immune to temptations? Virtue is right action in the face of temptation, as courage is right action in the face of fear.
Priestly celibacy IS wrong. After all, Jesus wasn’t celibate (atleast, according to Dan Brown).
For those who wish to read an excellent explanation of why celibacy is God’s gift to man, I suggest Bishop Fulton Sheen’s autobiography, “Treasure In Clay”, the chapter titled: “Reflections on celibacy”.
“They are probably one of the most in love couples I know.”
You are confusing Christian Love with romantic love, which, though it pales in comparison with the Real Thing, is still considered the gold standard according to the secular humanist worldview.
Why not just admit that a lot of people just don’t WANT to sacrifice that much in the service of their Lord?
In times that we have plenty of information about, whenever the principle of celibacy was disregarded, it’s been accompanied by a well-documented moral breakdown of the clergy. Consider times from Charlemagne until the Council of Trent where this principle didn’t seem to be enforced well and priests, bishops were openly marrying, taking mistresses, etc. This led to a sort dynasty operation among many of the clergy, with priests and bishops passing offices, money, land to their children; this is a hereditary process as one passes a business down, and often takes away the call or discernment that so many priests now struggle with so they know they actually want to join for the reason of serving God. A side effect of this was a disgust among a lot of the laity at the laxity and neglect for the clergy. A possible hypothesis is that the Church’s rules on priestly celibacy has not only to do with passages in Scripture which are interpreted with the Holy Spirit’s guidance, but also has stemmed from glimpses in the past of the laxity and corruption when the discipline of priestly celibacy was disregared. Just a thought. God bless. Catholic Encyclopedia has the history of priestly celibacy:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm
Another interesting site:
http://www.tfp.org/TFPForum/catholic_perspective/wiles_guiles.htm
http://www.tfp.org/TFPForum/catholic_perspective/tracing_the_glorious_origins_of_celibacy.htm
Keep in mind that the Bible grew out of the Church, and not the other way around.
Jesus didn’t write a book, he founded a Church.
can you find your ccc comments in the bible?
Can you find your Bible without the Catholic Church’s instructions?
Jesus is referring to divorce not celibacy. See Jesus’ complete words below.
And you yourself quote the words on celibacy. (Yes, he talked of divorce first. Then he talked of celibacy.)
You will not find Jesus anywhere in the Bible stating, accepting or condoning a man to be forbidden from marriage.
The Catholic Church does not forbid any man to marry, because no man is required to become a priest.
Paul wrote with the belief that Jesus’ return was imminent. And, thus, yes, it would be better to remain single if you were single. This, however, was not the case.
So much for calling us to obey the Bible.
Marie, all scripture is inspired by God. For you to dismiss the letters on the grounds they were based on a false belief is to reject Scripture.
For the DrEric who wrote,
If they were Eastern Catholics: Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Melkite, Romanian, et al; they could get married and become priests.
This is not altogther accurate. It is not accurate to say this for Eastern Catholics or Eastern Orthodox. All those being called to the priest in these groups cannot marry after entering the priesthood and it is my understanding only single men are made bishop in all the Eastern churches Catholic or Orthodox.
If a man was to become a priest after marriage would be the only acceptable path in these cultures of the church
All this talk against celibacy is very silly and ignorant. In years gone by the vow of chastity was seen as a great blessing and devotion in Christian life where has this blessing gone in the minds of so-called modern man and woman? I have to assume that since secular society feeds off of a sexual existence today this as become what is termed as the norm by our budding “born againers” (and I mean that in the wrong sense of being born again, the reinvented version, the non-catholic creation of the term)
I’ve read a few of the previous posts and I see the same ignorance I’ve had to combat elsewhere on the web written by non-catholics.
Firstly Bob, hate to inform you but most Protestant denominations have catechisms also. When you attack this document you exhibit ignorance because you attempt to pit it against the bible and any child can quickly learn whether a catechism be a Catholic or Protestant one neither group claim them to be inspired text as the bible. Key fact is CCC quotes much scriptural teaching as reference.
On to Person X….. if someone discerning God’s call to the priesthood much decide on their own accord how is that person forced not to marry? The priesthood is a calling and the decision to follow the call comes from the candidate not the Church therefore your logic of “forced not to marry” doesn’t wash Mary roll your rune stones again darling. Another thing, if the Church truly forced people not to marry as Mary wants to teach than how come there are almost 70 million Catholic in America? Wouldn’t the Church have disappeared by now if the Church didn’t teach marriage?
Sorry I think I got Mary mixed up with Ashley and Bob
BTW Bob you are using a Catholic NT canon in every possible Protestant bible out there and so you already have accepted Catholic authority whether you admit it to yourself or not.
I watched the show tonight and felt a pang of frustration for Dan when he was talking to the fundamentalist. He couldn’t answer him with a quick answer but he did tell the fundamentalist one thing truthful that being the fundie has misinterpeted the scriptures. The fundamentalist was quite funny as he started chiming off chapter and verse and yet he did not provide context to the verse. He was holding to certain presuppositions that required proving before the discussion continued hence he was using the proof-text as pretext. What Dan needed to tell the guy when he quoted from John, “One mediator” was that Catholics profess in One mediator Jesus between God and man and yet we do not decide on how Jesus uses his power to mediate like those who wrongly cite these verses. All prays from Mary or the saints for us goes to Jesus. All prayers for one another including the ones by TammySueBaker down at the chapel are “intercessory” we can all be intercessors in our prayers for one another and Jesus mediates through those prayers. And so this fundamentist guy Dan ran into is off track with his accusations against Catholicism as he lacks authentic bible interpretation, he has inherited a tradition of interpretation which has thrown out God’s biblical teaching authority the Church. When all you have left is bible it is no wonder our poorer separate brethren are all bible, bible, bible they’ve bankrupted themselves. Oh well I do believe in divine providence.
Celibacy in practice is alot more wide spread than just the priesthood. Any Christian who professes to follow Christ and is not married must also be celibate. I am and Marie said she is. All you other single Christians on here should be, are you? If we never marry for whatever reason, we will have to be celibate for life according to God’s command, right?
Elderly and infirm people could be celibate due to advanced age/ health problems. Young disabled people may be celibate. Certain sects of Buddhist monks are celibate, for they too renounce marriage and sex for their “higher” calling.
Some on this thread make celibacy out to be the most unnatural and horrible thing on earth, when in fact many people are already practicing it for various reasons
What’s impossible for man is possible with God – through His grace.
How strange that some people would think it a good idea to try to quote Catholic teaching, even Pope Benedict, to attack the Catholic Church. Are they being dishonest or just misinterpreting Church teaching (and the role of the Magisterium). Celibacy is a wonderful gift. The dignity of marriage and human sexuality only increases the dignity of celibacy. I take a bit of offence at the idea that the vocation to celibacy I believe I have is unnatural.
Would you all deny not only the goodness of priestly celibacy but of the monastic and mendicant communities that have served the Church from almost the beginning?
I can get a Protestant with their “Bible alone” idea (where does the Bible come from and how do you interpret it of course) but a Catholic denying so much? Sad.
The love between spauses it only a reflection of (among other things) the nuptual union between the God and the human soul.
Some people are called to dedicate their life to God via a dedication to a single man or woman.
Others are called dedicate their life to God via a dedication to the Church, His Bride.
Others are called to dedicate their life to God plain and simple.
To accept only one of these callings as natural is bigotry against those with other vocations.
Yes, while the red blood flows there will be sexual temptations, and those will not go away if you get married either, but God will give to all the grace they need to resist temptation. The fact of sexual feelings does not mean one is called to marriage any more than natural attraction to power means one is called to be a politician or soldier. That is not a perfect metaphore but hopefully it expresses the point.
Reading this post saddens me. Everyone on here seems to be Christian (wheather Catholic or Protestant) yet we continue to attack each other. We may have different ways of praying and practicing, but we all pray to the same God (wheather you want to admit it or not) and we all want to serve God in the best way possible, in our individual lives. Let’s all learn to love one another and strenghthen each other, in our faith in Christ.
Mari, this is called “discussion”. People haved expressed their thoughts. Most have attempted to back up their thoughts through Scripture, the techings of the Church, experiences, etc. This is healthy. If we all just decided to refuse to express disagreement, we’d speak of nothing but fluff; cotton candy, not meat.
Read the REAL STORY of the journey of a Catholic Priest.
http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0112/albertoindex.asp?wpc=0112/albertoindex.asp&wpp=a
Is being “called to the priesthood” in the bible?
Cary: Jack Chick’s Alberto fiction? If you are getting your “information” about the Catholic Church from Jack Chick, then you know nothing about the Catholic Church. Read Karl Keating’s “Catholicism and Fundamentalism”. Or go to catholic.com and read some of the tracts there. If you are going to criticise Catholicism, atleast make the effort to know what you’re talking about.
Jack Chick’s “Alberto” is a well known fraud. The tract is based on his fantasies and lies told to the willingly credulous Chick.
Alberto was a hustler, a con man.
You’ll have to do better than THAT.
Cary,
Christ said to His disciples “You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you”
It will be hard to take you seriously if you link to Jack Chick comics.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Howdy Everyone:
I am catholic and love being catholic but don’t agree with everything the church does and honest and educated people will admit this even the priests and nuns I know and I know many of them.
Cary:
“Is being “called to the priesthood” in the bible?”
Not as it’s defined by the Catholic church.
J. R. Stoodley:
“Others are called dedicate their life to God via a dedication to the Church, His Bride.”
The bible does not say anywhere that the church is the bride of priests. This is the church’s way of preventing priests from marrying. Priests were allowed to marry from the beginning, which is fact and in the bible – see genesis for God’s truth. The church changed it because when priests were allowed to marry they left the land and their money to their families which the church wanted and then they made up their own rules. Amen, Marie & those who see the truth and are not swayed by fallacies!
“I take a bit of offence at the idea that the vocation to celibacy I believe I have is unnatural.”
The comment made to you above does not say celibacy is unnatural. The comment by Marie says: “Along with, by refusing man a natural relationship, it suppresses his feelings, which is unhealthy, unnatural, and damaging.” This is true. Very True! Read Song of Songs – human love at its best!
“Would you all deny not only the goodness of priestly celibacy but of the monastic and mendicant communities that have served the Church from almost the beginning?”
You said it, “from ALMOST the beginning?” That is right, it was not like that in the beginning. The beginning is genesis. See genesis for the creation story and God’s will and truth.
bill912:
“Priestly celibacy IS wrong. After all, Jesus wasn’t celibate (atleast, according to Dan Brown).”
Where in the bible does it say Jesus was celibate? In Jewish tradition, and he was Jewish, it was well known that Jewish men were married well before the age of 33. His marital and celibacy or not status is of no concern to the Bible because his mission was not to get married or has sexual relations – His mission was/is as our Savior/Salvation. Focus on His mission.
God or the Girl? STUPID title because there is no choice. God is everything period. God made girl for boy period. Congrats to Mike Lechniak for following God’s will. You can have God and the girl because God made it that way and that is how it will always be. You should pray that the church realizes its error in creating a rule more than a thousand years after Peter and remove it.
Jane
God bless everyone for their honesty and openness to dialogue. How great that we are talking about this issue because maybe the church will see this and have a Vatican III to address the priestly state. I wanted to be a priest but I have a girlfriend that I love and want to marry. I know that God would not want me to be without her. So I will find other means to do Gods work. I mean, we will find the means to do God’s work together as 1. God Bless to All!
Bart and Kristy
Hello: I’m Baptist and never thought about this issue before. The show and this website are very interesting and informative. This certainly makes me think about what God’s will truly is. I have a good friend that is catholic and can’t wait to talk to her about this. God Bless! Emily
I like Emily’s attitude. I don’t like Jane’s.
I greatly respect the truth in Protestantism. It was as a Protestant that I came to know Christ for the first time.
That said, Protestantism also contains error, including the Sola Scriptura idea and (among some) the idea that however the 1st century Church did it that must be the right way.
Jane, your ideas and assuptions are simply not Catholic. Calling yourself Catholic does not make every idea you have Catholic. To cite Scripture against Church tradition or even to suggest that something was not so because it is not in the Bible is Protestant, not Catholic.
The idea that the Church needs to have priests be celibate to hold on to its property is one of the worst arguments I have ever heard. Did Protestants ever loose Churches or property because there pastors passed them on to their children? Did Jews lose their synagogues to the children of Rabbis or did Muslims lose mosques to the children of imams? All you need it to have the property belong to the Church not the priest and you are set.
I have read the Song of Songs (and all of the Bible) more than once and it is traditionally described as being a story about the relationship between God and Israel and even more Christ and His Church. We reflect this relationship in our own lives in different ways, through marriage or single life or consecrated life.
Our Blessed Mother was celibate all here life, or do you also reject that ancient and binding Dogma?
Being celibate is not required for the validity of ordination, but the Church has taught for centuries on what a gift celibacy is for the priesthood.
The Holy Spirit continues to be at work in the Church, so to argue agaist monasticism and other forms of consecrated religious life on the grounds that it was not there from the begining of the Church (and there may well have been groups of consecrated virgins) or even from the begining of time holds no water. I find it tragic that one can not appreciate the goodness and work of God in the Benedictines, Cistercians, Carthusians, Franciscans, and so on. Have you ever visited a monastery Jane? A good one?
Have you ever read St. John of the Cross? Here is a sample:
On a dark night,
Kindled in love with yearnings—oh, happy chance!—
I went forth without being observed,
My house being now at rest.
In darkness and secure,
By the secret ladder, disguised—oh, happy chance!—
In darkness and in concealment,
My house being now at rest.
In the happy night,
In secret, when none saw me,
Nor I beheld aught,
Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart.
This light guided me
More surely than the light of noonday
To the place where he (well I knew who!) was awaiting me—
A place where none appeared.
Oh, night that guided me,
Oh, night more lovely than the dawn,
Oh, night that joined Beloved with lover,
Lover transformed in the Beloved!
Upon my flowery breast,
Kept wholly for himself alone,
There he stayed sleeping, and I caressed him,
And the fanning of the cedars made a breeze.
The breeze blew from the turret
As I parted his locks;
With his gentle hand he wounded my neck
And caused all my senses to be suspended.
I remained, lost in oblivion;
My face I reclined on the Beloved.
All ceased and I abandoned myself,
Leaving my cares forgotten among the lilies.
Human love at its best, for a celibate contemplative priest.
Jane-
It would be impossible to address all the errors and illogic in your post.
It is enough for now to say that this is what happens when people begin to say “I love being Catholic, BUT… (fill in the blank)”.
They want gay marrige, or artificial birth control, or abortion, divorce… or they don’t like confession, or don’t believe in the Real Presence, or want to marry a Buddhist…
In what sense is one a Catholic if they feel they can pick and choose their own pet doctrines? Oh well, as long as no one’s feelings are “repressed”… that’s the important thing.
Obedience is just so… restricting. Freedom means getting what we want!
Jane,
“The bible does not say anywhere that the church is the bride of priests.
The Church is the Bride of Christ. See Eph. 5:25
A Catholic Priest is in the person of Christ. See 2Cor 2:10
Our Blessed Lord said those “eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.” Matt 19:12
St. Paul said “To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.”
and
“I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord;
“I am catholic and love being catholic but don’t agree with everything the church does”
Please learn your faith by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Catholic means according to the whole not what you pick and chose to believe. Our Blessed Lord established an authoritative Church to teach and preach His Gospel.
“Amen, Marie & those who see the truth and are not swayed by fallacies!
The Church is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” and if you do not hear the church you are like a heathen and tax collector.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
So what do you think then, that the big, bad Catholic church created the concept of celibate priests just to be obnoxious and counter cultural? Just to flex some muscle? Just to throw their authority around and make people miserable?
What reason would the Church have for enforcing such an unpopular and controversial discipline? Usually man-made institutions will do the opposite – they will compromise and do things that will make themselves popular. Some Protestant faiths have compromised on many Christian values -divorce and remarriage is accepted in just about any situation even tho Jesus condemns it. Abortion is OK in some denominations even tho the scriptures are clearly pro-life to the hilt. Contraception is OK in most. Accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is enough to give you a ticket straight to Heaven and secure your eternal salvation no matter how you sin, cause the blood of Jesus will just cover up your sins like snow on a dung heap. Wow, now this is really attractive, and alot easier than Catholicism!
The Church in it’s wisdom and guidance from the Holy Spirit has it’s reasons for keeping priestly celibacy as a discipline – to give oneself completely to Christ and to be a father figure to the flocks without the distraction of a wife and family. If you don’t accept it, then don’t accept it. No one is forced to, and if men can’t accept it, then they can so no to the invitation from God and serve Him in different ways in the Church.
On the EWTN program, “The Journey Home”, Marcus Grodi, a married former Presbyterian minster, interviews people who have converted (or reverted, in the case of Catholics who left the Church and returned) to the Catholic faith. He and other married former ministers have said that they now see the wisdom of a celibate priesthood, citing St. Paul’s words from 1 Corinthians about an unmarried man being able to concern himself solely with pleasing God.
I am very disappointed in the attitude and uneducated responses of you so-called Christian Catholics.
J. R. Stoodley:
Song of Songs (introduction): “While the Song is thus commonly understood by most Catholic scholars, it is also possible to see in it an inspired portrayal of ideal human love. Here we would have from God a description of the sacredness and the depth of married union.”
Human love at its best!
“Our Blessed Mother was celibate all here life, or do you also reject that ancient and binding Dogma?”
It’s not ANCIENT dogma at all. As a Catholic, you should know that the Pope has used the infallibility twice in history and it’s not ancient – 1854 & 1950 (see below). Why do you think the Pope has used this only twice in the history of the church, hum?
Pope Pius IX: In 1854 he became one of the few Popes to issue a statement considered infallible when he defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
Pope Pius XII: Pius is one of few Popes in recent history to exercise his Papal Infallibility by issuing an apostolic constitution, Munificentissimus Deus, which defines ex cathedra the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into heaven, on November 1, 1950.
Tim J:
“Obedience is just so… restricting. Freedom means getting what we want!”
We are obedient to 1 person and 1 person only and that is GOD. Remember, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Mary, Jesus – they were obedient to God and God alone. And Jesus died for us to free (freedom) us from sin.
Inocencio:
Be careful incorrectly quoting 1 Corinthians. It states in the NAB introduction to the letter: “Still other problems with which Paul had to deal concerned matters of conscience discussed among the faithful members of the community: the eating of meat that had been sacrificed to idols (1 Cor 8:1-13), the use of sex in marriage (1 Cor 7:1-7), and the attitude to be taken by the unmarried toward marriage in view of the possible proximity of Christ’s second coming (1 Cor 7:25-40). There was also a doctrinal matter that called for Paul’s attention, for some members of the community, despite their belief in the resurrection of Christ, were denying the possibility of general bodily resurrection.”
Lets emphasize “POSSIBLE PROXIMITY of Christ’s second coming.” I think Marie explained this better above where she wrote: “In the 1st letter of Paul to the church of Corinth, he writes in a passionate manner. Paul wrote with the belief that Jesus’ return was imminent. And, thus, yes, it would be better to remain single if you were single. This, however, was not the case. Jesus did not return in Paul’s lifetime. If you want to use your mind, think of it in this way…If all were to remain single from that moment on in history, this world would cease to exist. Now, use your heart…from the beginning…Matthew 19:4-6.”
“A Catholic Priest is in the person of Christ. See 2Cor 2:10”
That is correct, the priest is IN THE PERSON OF Christ but he is NOT Christ.
“Please learn your faith by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church.”
The CCC is a reference guide only. Be careful to say that we learn our faith from a reference guide. Our faith is a gift from God. Our faith is made known in written tradition through the Bible. God is truth and only God.
MB:
“The Church in it’s wisdom and guidance from the Holy Spirit has it’s reasons for keeping priestly celibacy as a discipline – to give oneself completely to Christ and to be a father figure to the flocks without the distraction of a wife and family. If you don’t accept it, then don’t accept it. No one is forced to, and if men can’t accept it, then they can so no to the invitation from God and serve Him in different ways in the Church.”
So what you’re saying is that all other Christian pastors (non-Catholics) don’t give themselves to God and can’t father their flock because they are married with family. Well, you must be one of those Catholics that believe that only Catholics are getting into the Kindgom of Heaven. And a man that marries does not say no to God he actually says yes. Well if we listen to you, only priests will get into the Kindgom of Heaven. I think not based on some of their behaviors, hum?
To All: There is in reality only one gospel running through all of the Christian scriptures, the gospel of and about Jesus Christ.
Amen,
Jane
“It’s(Mary’s perpetual virginity) not an ANCIENT dogma at all.”
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to His Essence, deny also that he took true human flesh from the Ever-Virgin Mary.” St. Athanasius, “Discourses Against The Arians”, A.D. 358-362.
“We are obedient to 1 person(sic) and 1 person(sic) only and that is God.”
The Church is the Body of Christ. When we are obedient to the Church, we are obedient to Christ.
I’ll leave it to others to correct the rest of your errors, Jane.
Jane,
The CCC “is sure norm for teaching the faith” Pope John Paul II. I will accept his authority and not your protestant “Sola Scriptura.
You stated “Where in the bible does it say Jesus was celibate? and you appeal to Jewish tradition and ignore and/or reject Sacred Tradition.
Where in the bible does it say our Blessed Lord was married? No where. But you chose to believe it. The word heresy comes from the Greek verb that means “to choose”. You are leading yourself into heresy as any fallen creature would. That is why our Blessed Lord established a Church with His authority to teach and guide us.
The Church has God-given authority to teach and you are subject to that authority at the cost of your salvation.
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.UNAM SANCTAM Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302
The Word of God comes to us both as Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Before you accuse others of being ignorant of the Catholic faith you should learn it and its history.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Definition of PROXIMITY:
– American Heritage Dictionary:
The state, quality, sense, or fact of being near or next; closeness. Etymology: from Latin proximits, from proximus, nearest. See proximate.
– Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
The quality or state of being proximate.
– Yahoo Dictionary:
The state, quality, sense, or fact of being near or next; closeness.
Definition of PROXIMATE:
– American Heritage Dictionary:
1) Very near or next, as in space, time, or order.
2) Approximate.
– Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
1) immediately preceding or following.
2) (a) very near; (b) soon forthcoming.
– Yahoo Dictionary:
1) Very near or next, as in space, time, or order.
2) Approximate.
There is no reason to remain unmarried to serve the Lord. Now try something else to support celibacy and unmarried state in the priesthood in the present day.
Jane,
I already quoted our Blessed Lord Himself “eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.”
And please read
Da Rulz of Jimmy’s blog #3.
3. Also because of the format restrictions, everyone must be concise. Don’t go on at length about things. Pasting large amounts of text into the combox also counts as going on at length. Going on at length constitutes rudeness.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Jane,
Your whole notion of ignoring Sacred Scripture because you think St. Paul thought the end was near is very telling about the personal infallibility you think you have.
The CCC quotes the same Scriptures and teaches what they mean so we can avoid confusion.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Hello from a Baptist!
Inocencio, you wrote: Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. UNAM SANCTAM Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302.
We are not subject to ANYONE but our Lord Jesus Christ. The Pope can not and does not have authority over anyone’s soul. Only our Lord can judge us. I will pray for you and the salvation of your soul as you are seriously misguided.
Jane, you seem to be right, for some reason some Catholics think only they will be accepted in the kingdom of heaven. How foolish are they!
Peace from a Baptist!
Sally
Sally,
Our Blessed Lord gave His Church His authority to bind and loose. Reject that authority at your own risk.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Sally, read all the above posts. You will find your refutation in several of them.
Sally,
More directly from our Blessed Lord “he who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me and him who sent me” Luke 10:16
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Peace be with you,
There is one redeemer and one judge and that is Jesus Christ. His two new commandments of love are clear.
James
Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
and the power,
and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.
God’s will is in the Bible – as it was in the beginning. Amen, Amen, I say to you: to those who believe and follow for they are given His truth and many blessings. Prayers for those who do not believe. Peace to all of God’s Children!
Jane,
The Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is indeed ancient. It was apparently universally held by all the Fathers of the Church except Tertullian. It was defined under anathema at the Lateran Council in a.d. 649. That’s ancient in my book. It’s also a dogma. It was also formally defined at the Council of Trent.
And yes, such binding statements are infallible, as are all binding teachings of the Pope or a Council, not just ex cathedra statements. I recommend you do more research into Catholicism before arguing against it in this way.
I will not quote Bible passages to you because that is not much use agaist protestants like you (yes, I must say it). Catholics accept Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as divine revelation and do not make themselves the ultimate interpreter of them but the Magisterium (teaching authority, the Pope and the bishops in communion with him) of the Church. No quoteing and unorthodox interpretations of “choice” Bible verses by you will convince any real Catholic. We are just on different wavelengths.
No one has said one can not dedicate one’s life totally to God and be married. The point is that in that vocation to marriage, the man’s wife must be a very major priority in his life. He serves God by serving his wife, even being willing to lay down his life for her.
The priest must give his this same devotion to the Church. If he has a wife other than the Church, his loyalty is divided at best. It would be unjust for him to neglect his wife or the Church, but how can he serve both with all his effort?
The active religious is called to serve God in their own way, perhaps through serving the poor like Mother Theresa will their whole life, not divided between serving the poor and serving their family.
The contemplative religious is called to dedicate themselves to God in a way that is ordinary, obscure, and laborious, either as a hermit or in a community. In either case, they are able to dedicate many hours, perhaps the majority, of their life to prayer, and every other moment (the simple work maybe in a field, eating, washing dishes, etc.) dedicated wholeheartedly to God.
In all these cases and any vocations I have forgotten, the person dedicates themselves to God with their whole heart, mind, and strength. The difference is the manner of serving him. Do not limit yourself to one way.
Again, the fact of sexual temptation and the naturalness of attraction to people of the opposite sex does not mean everyone is called to marriage. They are indeed called to nuptual union, to union and comunion with another person, but that person is God. Every human love is a reflecion of the Love that is God Himself. Our acceptance of that Love and our response to it by directing our love, both eros and agape, to God is the fulfillment of the human person. It is the future vocation of all of us, since it is the life of heaven.
Do not condemn those who are called to in this life abandone their sexual feelings and direct all their love and romanticism directly to God.
James and Jillian,
Amen!
And when believers disagree may they all accept the God-given authority of the Church He established to teach and guide us.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Mr. Stoodley, You can’t have eros and agape w/ God. This is not possible as eros is a sexual love that you can only have with your wife or husband. You can not have eros with Jesus because then that would be a homosexual relationship and morbid and against the Bible and God. I read the Pope’s encyclical on the advice above and even the Pope says that a man must have both eros and agape. Please do not speak such morbid innuendos.
Blessings, Inocencio,
AMEN & Thank You!
Peace,
James & Jillian
(we’re happily married – James a former priest and I a former nun)
Blessings, Inocencio,
AMEN & Thank You!
Peace,
James & Jillian
(we’re happily married – James a former priest and I a former nun)
Lisa,
Eros here means not “sexual love” per se but love that seeks the other person. Agape means love that gives itself for the other. Some use the words differently, but that is how I have used them and that is how Pope Benedict used them.
Do you really think Pope Benedict was arguing that everyone should get married? The eros he speaks of is the love that seeks the other person, that seeks God ultimately. It is not a sexual love, and thus is no more homosexual for a man than heterosexual for a woman.
St. Thomas Aquinas said it was unnatural for anyone to not desire union with another. This could be in a sexual context with an individual husband or wife, or it could be union with God. It is not sexual.
What exactly do you find morbid about what I have written Lisa?
Mr. Stoodley, with the utmost respect, I think you need to read the Pope’s letter again. I guess I’ll define agape and eros for you below. I think you mean you can have agape and only agape with the Lord. Ms. Marie above is correct, in the Pope’s letter, #7 the second paragraph, the Pope does state that: man cannot live by oblative, descending love alone. Oblative, descending love being agape.
AGAPE:
1.) Christianity Love as revealed in Jesus, seen as spiritual and selfless and a model for humanity.
2.) Love that is spiritual, not sexual, in its nature.
3.) Christianity In the early Christian Church, the love feast accompanied by Eucharistic celebration.
Etymology: Greek agap, love.
EROS:
1.) Greek Mythology The god of love, son of Aphrodite.
2.) often eros Creative, often sexual yearning, love, or desire: “The new playful eros means that impulses and modes from other spheres enter the relations between men and women” (Herbert Gold).
3a.) Psychiatry Sexual drive; libido.
3b.) The sum of all instincts for self-preservation.
Etymology: Latin Ers, from Greek, from ers, sexual love
THANK YOU all for opening my eyes to the truth of God’s will for man and woman. I especially like Ms. Maries comment: When a man marries, his rib is returned to him and then he and she are ONE, are whole (see Genesis 2:21-24).
Blessing to all,
Lisa
Thank you Jane for the definitions. That was most helpful! Blessings!
Thank you Marie for your wisdom and references. God has certainly blessed you. More blessings to you!
WISDOM
1.) The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.
2.) Common sense; good judgment: “It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things” (Henry David Thoreau).
3a.) The sum of learning through the ages; knowledge: “In those homely sayings was couched the collective wisdom of generations” (Maya Angelou).
3b.) Wise teachings of the ancient sages.
4.) A wise outlook, plan, or course of action.
5.) Wisdom Bible Wisdom of Solomon.
James and Jillian,
I stand by my Amen of what you posted. Because nothing in them contradict Church teaching.
If you are truly a former priest and nun and reject the authority of the Church I will keep you in my prayers.
And if you are not it is very un-christian to lie.
God have mercy on all our souls.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
And everyone reading these posts please do not be shocked to hear Catholic teaching on a Catholic apologetics blog.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
I have not said man can live by agape alone. He needs both agape and eros.
Agape again being defined as oblative love, eros being defined, as your definition #2 leaves as a possibility, as the love of desire. This is often assumed to be sexual, but need not be. I recomend you reread Pope Benedict’s encyclical yourself and you will see this is how the Pope used the word. Why else would he have spoken of God haveing eros love for us?
We must desire Him and give ourselves for Him, as He desires us and gives Himself totally for us.
He is the fulfillment of all the desires of the soul. If you have not percieved this I recomend spending more time in prayer.
Love never fails!
Here is a prayer from William of St. Thierry, a medieval Cistercian monk, that illustrates where I am comming from.
” MY HEART HAS TALKED of you my face has sought you. Your face, Lord, will I seek. Do not turn away your face from me, do not shun your servant in wrath.”
It seems surpassing boldness and effrontery to make comparison between my face and yours, Lord God! For you see and judge the hearts of all men and, if you enter into judgment with your servant, the face of my iniquity can only flee before that of your righteousness.
But if, in order to excuse and help my poverty, you should grant me burning love and humility, then let them flee who hate. I, for my part, should not flee your face. For love is very daring, and humility fosters confidence. I am not conscious of these virtues in myself, yet I a vow myself your friend. For, if you ask me: “Do you love me” as you asked Peter, I shall say plainly, I shall tell you boldly:” Lord, you know all things, you know I want to love you . And that is as much as to say: “If you ask me the same thing a thousand times, I shall as often make the same reply: You know I want to love you” And that means that my heart desires nothing so much as it desires to love you.”
Mr Stoodley, you said: I have not said man can live by agape alone. He needs both agape and eros.” We agree then, the priesthood goes againist God’s wishes, man and woman belong together not separate. Thanks for confirming. God Bless & Good Night!
Lisa,
As you know well, we do not agree. Man needs both eros and agape. These may be directed to a woman or they may not. They need to be directed to God, though. In Him we will be fulfilled as persons and obtain the joy and peace of the children of God.
“I am very disappointed in the attitude and uneducated responses of you so-called Christian Catholics.”
‘kay. Feeling’s mutual.
“It’s not ANCIENT dogma at all. As a Catholic, you should know that the Pope has used the infallibility twice in history and it’s not ancient – 1854 & 1950 (see below).”
Wrong on both counts. The Pope declared the dogma of Mary’s perpetual virginity only once, but it was dogma from ancient times, enjoying the infallibility of the ordinary Magisterium of the Church.
The infallibility of Popes and Councils has been engaged many times in the history of the Church, as Jimmy has posted about, I believe. The myth that it has been engaged only twice is just that – a myth. You need to read more widely, as you seem to be repeating what you have picked up from Protestants and/or liberal Catholics.
“We are obedient to 1 person and 1 person only and that is GOD. Remember, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Mary, Jesus – they were obedient to God and God alone.”
Wrong again. Jesus (you remember him) gave Peter authority over his Church. Being a Catholic MEANS acknowledging this fact. If you reject the headship of the Pope, you reject the Catholic faith, and God’s plan for his people.
“The CCC is a reference guide only… Our faith is made known in written tradition through the Bible. God is truth and only God.”
Nope.
A reference guide to WHAT, one might ask? Recipes? Dog breeds? The Catechism, according to POPE John Paul II, is the “AUTHORITATIVE exposition of THE ONE AND PERENNIAL APOSTOLIC FAITH”, a “valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion” and a “sure norm for teaching the faith,” AS WELL AS a “sure and authentic reference text”.
Deny the teaching promulgated in the CCC, and again, you have rejected the true faith.
“So what you’re saying is that all other Christian pastors (non-Catholics) don’t give themselves to God and can’t father their flock because they are married with family.”.
According to the Holy Bible (1 Cor.7:32-35);
“An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife — AND HIS INTERESTS ARE DIVIDED. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, BUT THAT YOU MAY LIVE IN A RIGHT WAY, IN UNDIVIDED DEVOTION TO THE LORD.”.
You’re not going to accuse the Church of following scripture too closely on that, are you? Paul doesn’t put it in the form of a command, but makes it clear that single people at the very least have a tremendous advantage over married people in terms iof their ability to devote their lives wholly to the service of God.
“There is in reality only one gospel running through all of the Christian scriptures, the gospel of and about Jesus Christ.”
Well, you got ONE right. Happily, this is the very same gospel that is proclaimed through the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Mr. Stoodley:
John 21:15-19
8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”
16 He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”
17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, “Feed my sheep.
18 11 Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.”
19 He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, “Follow me.”
This section constitutes Peter’s rehabilitation and emphasizes his role in the church. How will he tend and feed HIS sheep? How has the church tended and fed its sheep if they refuse their sheep their God given right of marriage and procreation as willed and called for by God in the OT and Jesus in the NT and CCC and someone quoted this stuff above to. If we all became priests and nuns, the world would cease to exist and this is not God’s will. Just a thought. God Bless & Good Night!
Correct, JRS. As C.S. Lewis points out in his book, “The Four Loves”, the three “lower” loves (Affection, Eros, and Friendship) are, ultimately, demons unless they are united with, and subordinated to, God and His love (Agape, if you will).
Hey. I read most of the stuff and shouldnt ya stick to the bible quit quotin books and saints and references and anything thats not the bible.
Lisa, I fail to see how your last paragraph has anything to do with the scripture passage you quoted.
Butch, if you really read most of the comments, then you know you’ve already been refuted.
Hey, Butch: Tell us where it says in the Bible that we should only quote the Bible.
“Hey. I read most of the stuff and shouldnt ya stick to the bible…”
Then we would all be in agreement, like the Protestants!
This is a Cthaolic blog, Butch, and we submit to the Word of God in its totality, both in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Do you seriously think that the CCC says all people are called to marriage. If so you clearly have not read it. Same for Deus Caritas Est.
The OT and NT in no way proclaim all people to be called to marriage either.
The Pope does not require anyone to give up marriage, only those who freely choose to live a different life as a result of being called by God to do so.
Most people are called to marriage. In a sense then it could be called the most important vocation. It is not the only vocation however, as I have said above. There is therefore no call to say humanity would go extinct if anyone was called to celibacy. Most are not.
“If we all became priests and nuns, the world would cease to exist…”
Which is why God calls some to be married, and some to be celibate.
Is that so difficult to grasp?
Recommended reading: Pope Paul VI’s encyclical on priestly celibacy:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_24061967_sacerdotalis_en.html
“Is that so difficult to grasp?”
St. Paul grasp the concept perfectly “So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.” 1Cor 7:38
And as pointed out before the Church authoritatively interprets the Word of God and teaches the same thing
here.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
If marriage were a bad thing, celibacy would not be all that good either. It would just be refraining from something bad.
But marriage is something good, so those who forgo it for the sake of following God’s call, in making a sacrifice do something very good.
Therefore those who denigrate marriage also denigrate celibacy, and those who uplift marriage uplift celibacy.
bill912, I have no problem with “discussion”, however it seems to me that parts of this thread have turned insulting and a “I’m right/you’re wrong” argument, in which will get us nowhere. I think that there’s a lot of “below the belt” hits on this thread.
And by the way, I see nothing wrong in suggesting that we all just live our lives and spirituality in the way that we see fit. While a lively discussion about differences in beliefs is nice… there’s no “winning” in such an argument. So what’s wrong with me suggesting that we all try to lift each other up, instead of tear each other down? I’m just simply stating my opinion, as everyone else is. If you don’t like it, then ignore me.
Mari,
“I see nothing wrong in suggesting that we all just live our lives and spirituality in the way that we see fit.”
Our Blessed Lord is the Way, Truth and Life of the world and He established an authoritative Church to teach all that He commanded. And we can do nothing less then pick up are cross daily and follow Him and not our own way.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Mari
When it comes to the issue of absolute truth, you can not say “my truth is just as valid as your truth.” In some cases it is fine to let differences of opinion stand. I often do this on the issue of evolution, for instance, which I do not believe to be a very important issue, especially for non-scientists. However, when someone attacks something as beautiful and essential to many people’s lives as celibacy, I think they should be answered. If not for the sake of the person making the attacks then for others who will read this discussion.
Your sentiment though flows from the truth that we should love one another. Amen to that.
J. R. Stoodley, thank you for that and I totally agree that we should defend those who chose to live their lives celibate and explain why that is, for those that may be misguided. And yes, that is all I’m saying, is that we should love one another. I just dislike seeing Christians (Catholic and Protestant) arguing over our beliefs. But yes, I know there needs to be dialouge.
Inocencio, it seems as though you are assuming that I’m not Catholic, just because I believe we should all live in peace and respect one another’s differences in faith. To that I will state that I am Catholic, but that I also respect other’s feelings and beliefs, even if it is not of my own.
I respect those Protestants who come on here and respectfully disagree and provide their points… I just don’t want to see personal attacks and misguided judgements on the Church. And to fellow Catholics, keep up the good work in spreading what Catholicism truly teaches :o)
Mari,
“I just don’t want to see personal attacks and misguided judgements on the Church.”
Exactly that is why I quote the documents of the Church and not what I think or feel is right. Just reading this post makes it clear how many people who call themselves “catholic” are ignorant of the teachings of the Church.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
For the record, I generally agree with Inocencio, and I’m sure he agrees with my last post (except maybe the bit about evolution). Let the reader therefore see them as two sides of the same coin.
Truth for the intellect. Love for the will.
Also for the record, I wrote generally because I am not sure what Inocencio meant by not posting what the individual thinks or feels. I see no reason not to do this unless it contradicts the teachings of the Church. This may be what Inocencio meant.
just because I believe we should all live in peace and respect one another’s differences in faith.
Except, Mari, we seem to differ from you about the proper way to deal with differences, and you don’t seem to respect it. . .
Quoted from Inocencio: Exactly that is why I quote the documents of the Church and not what I think or feel is right.
I never said that I was talking about you. I was talking about those who come on here, criticizing the church and are obviously misguided about the Church. If you would’ve taken the time to read my Whole post, then you would’ve seen that I was praising those who come respectfully. And if you need me to say it, then I will… I believe that you are one who is doing it respectfully.
And to Mary, incase you missed it, I agreed with setting those straight who are misgided about the faith. Please don’t misinterpret what I am trying to say.
One more time… I am talking about those who are on here to simply critisize and tear others down; NOT those who are having a respectful discussion.
J.R. Stoodley,
I only meant what I, Inocencio, think or feel. I try very hard to point to what the Church teaches and where I am quoting from.
I am in agreement with your post (I also don’t think evolution is important).
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
I wonder if anyone posting under Lisa’s last post actually disagrees with anyone else. Rather humorous, if that is the case.
if no one disagrees with anyone else I mean. I also misunderstood Mari’s post, but in light of her later comments I think I agree with it.
…and,admittedly, I probably did do one or two of those “below the belt” hits.
mea culpa
mea culpa
mea maxima culpa
under Butch’s comment I should have said. I forgot about his.
I don’t think any of us are in disagreement either. I just think my posts were misunderstood. I guess I can see why. It was probably the way that I worded things. But I hope all is cleared up… and you, Inocencio, and others on here who are “discussing” keep up the good work on educating those who are misunderstood about the Catholic faith.
Since I’ve spent an hour reading this thread – I’ll chime in:
When I was single I considered the priesthood. The clincher in discerning it was not the calling for my life, was the strong sense that i was called to be a husband and a father. Never in the decision was the need to have sex considered.
At the time, I think I regretted that the option was not available to me to choose to be a married priest. With the benfit of ten years of marraige, I can see what a blessing my wife has been in drawing me nearer to the Church and to the Lord. Of greatest value in this personal spiritual growth, is my personal recognition of the true church founded by Christ, which is the Catholic Church. As my faith has grown, I have become more fully consciuos of the debt I have to Christ’s Church, which has (through the work of the Holy Spirit) evangelized the whole world, defended the faith against heresies, preserved the scriptures from error, interpreted these scriptures so as to reveal the divinity and humanity of Christ and the majesty and mystery of the triune God which were not fully revealed in the scriptures alone, and passed on through the generations the great gift of the sacraments(among which are foremost the Holy Eucharist by which we partake of the divine nature, Holy Orders which makes the Eucharist possible, Baptism and Reconciliation which make our souls ready to receive Christ in the Eucharist, and Marraige which the Chirch affirms and preserves through the ages and was of such great benefit to me through the self giving love of my wife).
This is to say nothing of the great saints like Bernard of Clairvaux, Augustine, Theresa, John Paul II and others whose writings have led me to communion with Jesus. In summary, I have learned to receive the faith as it has been handed down to me by Church. I encourage everyone to reexamine the whole history of the Catholic Church as I have, and accept or reject it. In accepting it, my faith has come alive and I see the Song of Songs as truly love song which truly resembles my love for my wife, but even more truly resembles my heart’s deepest longing for communion with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
And this is the synthesis of the matter for me: in obeying the Church and choosing one or the other, priesthood or marraige, my choice of marraige was so blessed by God that his grace came to reveal for me the destiny for the human soul which is union with Christ, and affirmed for me the great dignity and value of the celibate priesthood, which preserves and protects the deeper truths of love which a good marriage can only dimly point towards.
Please pray for me as I consider whether my service to my Lord and his Church is best accomplished as a lay person or as a Permanent Deacon.
Quote of the Day
“Conversion to Catholic doesn’t take off thinking it teaches to how to think”
Chesterton
“Reform has never been achieved by disobedience”
John Henry Newman
Matthew-
I will remember you in prayer, today. God bless you as you follow His voice.
Good Morning & Peace to All!
I’ve read the entries and watched the show and have a few thoughts.
First, I would like to point out that I’m disappointed and concerned with the title of God or the Girl. This title is immoral and untrue. There is not a choice between God or the girl, and I feel that the title and show may give that impression to young men possibly discerning a call to the priesthood and other men for that matter. There is not a choice between the two and whoever feels that way is really misguided! GOD IS THE CREATOR! Upon creation, God gave man everything – land, food, water, animals, plants, etc. – “but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man” (Gen. 2:20), so God made woman. And, then and only then, the man said: “This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of ‘her man’ this one has been taken.” (Gen. 2:23) and finally man was complete and God was pleased. And it is through woman and only woman with the will of God that birth occurs – so you men wouldn’t be here if your parents didn’t marry!
Second, I’m Catholic and proud to be a Catholic. That being said, I don’t pray to or through the intersession of a saint or Holy Mary. I pray directly to God and Jesus only. Please refer to the the Lord’s prayer. I pray for and thank Holy Mary for her obedience to God for being the mother of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Please don’t think that I’m judging those who do because I’m not. It’s my belief that I’m to pray directly to God and no one else. This does not make me a non-Catholic. This is my faith and belief. And, just like Inocencio said, and as quoted in the Bible: “Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (Jn. 14:6).
Third, I was celibate for 10 years before I met and married my husband and I’m proud of that. Celibacy is not a gift it is a choice. I chose to be celibate until I married to honor God’s commandments. The priesthood does not offer the choice of marriage or being or not being celibate, they chose for man, which is not in accordance with God and goes in astray of God’s wishes.
To Matthew, you should not have had to choose one over the other – to be married or be a priest. What is so ironic about this is that I live in a state where the diocese has at least 6 married priests. YES, THERE ARE MARRIED PRIESTS. These priests were once pastors in a protestant religion. They contacted the diocese to convert to Catholicism and to become priests. So the bishop sent them to the seminary for 6 months and “magically” they became Catholic and priests. So I guess with the shortage of priests, the church will do anything – Hypocrisy(?) – most definitely – and unjust to the other priests. So if you would have become a protestant pastor, married, and then converted, you would have both.
To Marie: I was inspired by what you wrote: “When a man marries, his rib is returned to him and then he and she are ONE, are whole (see Genesis 2:21-24).” This is so beautiful and true! God bless you for your insight and for articulating it so modestly.
Finally, to all: may God’s will and truth be accepted, respected, and followed by all peoples and all Christian and non-Christian faiths!
Peace be with you,
Liz
Bishop Fulton Sheen: “Celibacy is not man’s gift to God; it is God’s gift to man.” From his autobiography, “Treasure In Clay”. But we’ve covered all this above, Liz.
Dear Bill912: I would prefer that you defend something w/ scripture not books. Thanks!
Liz, you sound exactly like Jane.
“I’m a Catholic, BUT…”
If I reject the doctrines of the Baptist Church, am I a Baptist?
If I reject the Q’uran, can I call myself a Muslim?
To the extent that you reject the teaching of The Church, you are NOT a Catholic.
It is the Catholic Church that has the authority to to establish discipline for her priests, not you.
You’re funny. You accuse the Church of cruelly forbidding her priests to marry, and then in the instances where it is allowed, you holler “hypocrisy!”.
Priests (and those discerning the call to priesthood) are not allowed to marry. Period. There are no exceptions to this rule, so charges of hypocrisy are empty.
Married men are sometimes (rarely) allowed to BECOME priests, if it can be demonstrated that this will not hinder their service, and especially if they have been members of the clergy in their former faith. This has been true for a long time, and is a very reasonable.
“I was celibate for 10 years before I met and married my husband”
That’s a good thing, but not really the same as being celibate. You were living a chaste life, which all people are called to do. Chastity is possible in every circumstance. For unmarried people, it means abstaining from sex. For me, and other married people, it means having sexual relations only with my spouse, and being open to life in every instance. For priests and religious, who are called to celibacy, it means voluntarily forgoing sex, spouse and children for the higher calling of serving Christ in poverty, chastity and obedience.
There is a great deal to learn from the vow of poverty, chastity and obedience. By your argument, since property and individual freedom are good things, then the Church has no right to require poverty or obedience from her priests either!
But serving God in the priesthood requires giving up certain worldly things that are none the less good things.
Voluntary poverty means I give up the right to aquire wealth in this life, the better to help others (and myself) to aquire REAL wealth in the next life.
Obedience means that I offer up to God as a sacrifice my own plans and desires… that I go where I am sent, and do what I am assigned, the better to bring others to obedience to God.
Chastity means that I give up claims to bodily communion with another human being, the better to bring others to spiritual Communion with Christ. I offer to Christ as a sacrifice, any claim to an earthly spouse and family, the better to increase and feed the family of God.
Not all are called to this life. Most are called to be married. Both are good things.
Those who can’t see the beauty of the celibate life, have both my pity and my prayers.
Tim – You seem propagandized! The Catholic Church can creates there laws, the Baptists create theres, and so on. But there is 1 law and that the law of YHWH in the Bible! By the way, Muslim is the person, Islam is the religion, and the Qur’an is the final revelation by a transcendent Allah [Arab., = the God] to Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam. The Prophet Muhammad, declaring Allah the God of Abraham, demanded a return to a strict monotheism. Someone said some Catholics think they are the only ones getting into the kindom of heaven. What a false belief. You seem to be one of these people. I feel sorry for you and anyone else who believes that. I have many friends, even Jewish friends, and I know that not Catholics are getting into the kingdom of heaven.
Tim J.
Well said.
But I fear we are about to engage in round two of God is “the feeling of” love instead of a true understanding of love as sacrifice.
“Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:13
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Lynea Bradford (CT),
“You seem propagandized!”
Tim J. is properly catechized in his faith. Did you not expect to hear Catholic teaching exlpained and defended on a Catholic apologetics blog?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Lynea, read the above comments. You are covering old ground and have already been refuted.
Andrea S.
As I pointed out to someone above-
“This is a Catholic blog, and we submit to the Word of God in its totality, both in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.”.
The greatest reason I became a Catholic was the self-evident insufficiency of any single person (including and especially myself) to interpret scripture for themselves.
God gave us an inerrant and infallible Sacred Scripture, and He gives us an infallible interpretation to go with it (Sacred Tradition), otherwise we, without fail, fall victim to our own errors and the error of others.
“To the extent that you reject the teaching of The Church, you are NOT Catholic.” That’s a great way of putting it, Tim. I will remember(and, possibly, plaigerize) that line.
That compliment was from me, Tim
Jane,
No I’m not saying that Christian Pastors do not give themselves to Christ and shepherd their flocks. I have many Protestant friends and love them and think that for the most part they are more zealous than most Catholics are.
And no – I don’t judge anyone’s souls and think that only Catholics go to Heaven. Yes I believe that Catholicism is the FULLNESS of truth but I don’t judge anyone, only God knows hearts.
But – I am tired of this constant bickering between Bible-only Christians and Catholics. Bible Christians always ask, “where is that in the Biblë?” And then you tell them and they don’t believe it anyway and make up some reason why our interpretation is wrong – which ISN’T OUR OWN INTERPRETATION, BUT IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH’S INTERPRETATION.
Catholicism’s interpretation of Scriture comes from 2000 years of Church authority which Christ gave to Peter and his successors as the earthly head of Christ’s church – “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven …” (Mt. 16:18).
If you’re a Bible-only Christian then you obviously will not believe in Catholicism because Catholics believe in the WORD OF GOD – BOTH in it’s WRITTEN form AND it’s ORAL form. You cannot have one without the other. The canon of Scripture didn’t exist until the 4th century – so the Church existed with scriptures on pieces of parchment and MOSTLY Tradition for the 1st few centuries! Go back and read the early Church Fathers and see how they worshiped in the 1st century and what they believed – these are men who received teaching DIRECTLY from the Apostles.
Also – Inocencio has quoted 2 Scripture verses at least 3 or 4 times which describe so plainly and forthrightly that Christ himself said that anyone who could accept renouncing marriage for the sake of his Kingdom OUGHT to – Christ said that NOT EVERYONE CAN ACCEPT THIS, BUT ONLY TO THOSE WHOM IT IS GRANTED. Who do you think Christ was saying GRANTS this ability to accept renouncing marriage? It only makes sense that God grants this ability. ‘
Then, the other scripture 1 Cor 7 is Paul mentioning all the reasons why people who do not marry do BETTER than married people when serving the Lord wholeheartedly. How come no one is seeing that here it is, plain and simple, right in the Scriptures?
It makes sense that if someone is not devoted to a wife and family that they will have more TIME and ENERGY to focus on spreading the Gospel. It is just common sense – Married life is not lesser than the Priestly life – they both have their place. ALSO – only a FEW are called to the religious life, both men and women. Most are called to the married life, so the argument about everyone being celibate and humankind ceasing to exist is ridiculous.
Peace
God Bless to all with their passion of Christ and openness to discourse. This is a miraculous site, albeit, intolerant at times, gratifying and fastidious indeed. I have much affection for all of God’s brothers and sisters!
Take care and God bless,
Mary Elizabeth
J+M+J
Some of you need to read your CCC.
678 Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching.582 Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light.583 Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God’s grace as nothing be condemned.584 Our attitude about our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love.585 On the last day Jesus will say: “Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.”586
679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He “acquired” this right by his cross. The Father has given “all judgment to the Son.”587 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.588 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.589
IN BRIEF
680 Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ’s kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.
681 On Judgment Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history.
682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.
Another thing – an analogy for all those who ask why would God ask someone to give up something so innate (sex) to the human condition would be fasting – Christ asked us to fast to grow stronger spiritually. Here is the voluntary renouncing of food which is necessary for our survival – yet Christ requests it of us.
God asks many hard things of us – to some he asks for the sacrifice of their very lives.
“You seem propagandized!”
Yes! I have been propagandized, praise God.
I found this definition on the web (Google)-
“Propaganda is a specific type of message presentation aimed at serving an agenda. At its root, the denotation of propaganda is ‘to propagate (actively spread) a philosophy or point of view’.”
So, I am propagandized, and I hope to propagandize a bunch of other people.
The propaganda of Jesus and His Catholic Church has the advantage of being TRUE.
There was a time when I allowed myself to be propagandized by the news media, by pop stars and later by purveyors of New-Age snake oil and TV Bible hucksters.
God knew that I didn’t have the brains to figure things out myself, so he led me to himself through the sacred propaganda of His Church, the “pillar and foundation of truth”.
MB-
Very good point about fasting, thank you.
Lynea Bradford (CT),
I have read it cover to cover (along side the Sacred Scriptures), the Introduction to the CCC and I have read about a fifth of the Compedium of the CCC so far. What exactly was your point?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Lynea Bradford –
I’m sorry, but I just completely missed the point of your last post.
A hint?
I third that – what was your point Lynea
“This is a miraculous site, albeit, intolerant at times…”
Absolutely right! We do not tolerate error. We attempt to correct it.
MB – “Another thing – an analogy for all those who ask why would God ask someone to give up something so innate (sex) to the human condition would be fasting – Christ asked us to fast to grow stronger spiritually. Here is the voluntary renouncing of food which is necessary for our survival – yet Christ requests it of us.”
Man, I’m happy there are only 2 required fasting days – Ash Wednesday & Good Friday!
Continued. Which means I don’t have innate (sex) with the wife at home raising our 6 kids.
Continued. Continued. Which means I don’t have innate (sex) with the wife at home raising our 6 kids on those 2 days only. Thank you for the clairification.
Happy Easter!
I love God w/ my whole heart, mind, and soul. I love my wife who God gave to me to.
Blessings,
Ronald
(former Franciscan Friar TOR)
J+M+J (The Holy FAMILY)
Good, Reggie/Ronald.
If God called you to be married, He obviously wasn’t calling you to be a Franciscan friar any longer.
As long as you are following God’s call (“vocation”) for your life, you can’t go wrong.
Wow. I can’t help but think, this thread is like a wacky retro time-warp trip to the 19th century.
Same old arguments, necessitating the same old rebuttals.
In my experiance practically all Catholics, whether they think priests should be allowed to marry or not respect celibacy and celibate religious orders.
Same goes for any Protestant I have talked to on the matter. They think we ought to allow priests to marry, but respect those who feel celibacy is their vocation and generally admire the monastic, mendicant, and active orders for which celibacy is essential to their way af life.
Maybe it is just the circles I move in. Or maybe the rest of the country is not as “tollerant” as us in Sunny Syracuse NY (that’s a joke). I have rarely ventured into the mysterious Southern and Western states (everything south of Jersey or west of the Ohio river I mean) but it seems sad if there is still so much anti-Catholic hatred and deliberate misunderstanding there. And among those who call themselves Catholics too!
Or does this site just attract the argumentative types?
Liz, “Celibacy is not a gift it is a choice. I chose to be celibate until I married to honor God’s commandments.”
I think celibacy is definitely a gift, a grace – who could remain celibate if we did not have God helping us – how many secular people do you know who are celibate – I know NONE. No one cares to be celibate who does not follow Christ and believes that it is His commandment that we save ourselves for marriage. It is HIS grace which gives us the strength to do something that is as hard as celibacy especially when the entire world is throwing casual sex at us every day.
The 7 sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in Isaiah 11:2 gift us the grace to follow through with His will.
MB-I counted 6 gifts in Isaih 11:2. See-
The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him: a spirit of wisdom and of understanding, A spirit of counsel and of strength, a spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD,
Butch,
And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him: the spirit of wisdom, and of understanding, the spirit of counsel, and of fortitude, the spirit of knowledge and of godliness. And he shall be filled with the spirit of the fear of the Lord. Isa 11:2-3 Douay Rheims translation
CCC 1831
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
J.R. Stoodley,
“Same goes for any Protestant I have talked to on the matter. They think we ought to allow priests to marry, but respect those who feel celibacy is their vocation and generally admire the monastic, mendicant, and active orders for which celibacy is essential to their way af life.”
Celibacy is not a vocation. Celibacy is the abstinence from sexual intercourse or the condition of being unmarried.
“Or does this site just attract the argumentative types?”
It seems to attract people who attempt to justify a way a life that isn’t from God. If God did not want people to marry and have children then there would not be the 2 sexes. And, better yet, there wouldn’t be a creation story at all. So maybe you want to toss out of the Bible the creation story in Genesis and Jesus holding to the same rule in Matthew – be careful of what it states in Revelation. Do you reject Jesus’s words? if you reject his words, you reject him!
Gn. 2:18-24
“It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him.”
19 So the LORD God formed out of the ground various wild animals and various birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each of them would be its name.
20 The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man.
21 So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.
22 The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man,
23 5 the man said: “This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of ‘her man’ this one has been taken.”
24 6 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.
Mt. 19:4-6
4 He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
Rev. 22:18-21
18 I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
19 and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book.
20 12 The one who gives this testimony says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all.
Butch
Yes there are only 2 required days of fasting but Catholics are encouraged to fast during the 40 days of Lent and during Advent as well. We are also encouraged to fast whenever we want to add power to our intercessions and prayers.
Inocencio-there are 7 if you include verse 3 but MB did not. I don’t know what Bible he uses.
New American Bible http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah2.htm
Isaiah 11:2-3
2 The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him: a spirit of wisdom and of understanding, A spirit of counsel and of strength, a spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD,
3 and his delight shall be the fear of the LORD. Not by appearance shall he judge, nor by hearsay shall he decide,
Posted by: MB | Apr 19, 2006 8:38:32 AM
“Another thing – an analogy for all those who ask why would God ask someone to give up something so innate (sex) to the human condition would be fasting – Christ asked us to fast to grow stronger spiritually. Here is the voluntary renouncing of food which is necessary for our survival – yet Christ requests it of us.”
Posted by: MB | Apr 19, 2006 11:25:26 AM
“Yes there are only 2 required days of fasting but Catholics are encouraged to fast during the 40 days of Lent and during Advent as well. We are also encouraged to fast whenever we want to add power to our intercessions and prayers.”
SO THERE ARE ONLY 2 DAYS A YEAR TO GIVE UP INNATE SEX AS YOU PUT IT. YIPPIE!
“It seems to attract people who attempt to justify a way of life that is not from God.”
You looking in a mirror, Jane? Most of us on this site are defending the teachings of the Catholic Church, the Church that Jesus founded, the Church to which He gave His authority. The Catholic way of life is from God. If you reject Jesus’ Church, you reject Him.
Jane,
If you think it so important to listen to Christ’s words, then listen to all of them. Why do you reject what He says through His apostle, Paul, about celibacy being a good thing? Why didn’t the Paul get married? Was he disobeying God?
Also, why do you reject Jesus’ words when he tells Peter “Who’s sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Who’s sins you retain are retained. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, will be loosed in heaven.”.
If the successors to Peter and the Apostles (the Pope and the Bishops) bind Catholic priests to celibacy, then they are bound. Your feelings about it (or mine) could not be less relevant.
Again, if you fail to understand the great gift that God has given His Church through celibacy, then you have my pity and my prayers.
I admire all the young men in this “God or the Girl” show I also think the title is dumb), for their willingness to step out of this sex-obsessed culture long enough to consider a call to the priesthood.
The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic!
The Church is “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. 10” (Eph. 2:20).
10 [20] Capstone: the Greek can also mean cornerstone or keystone.
Defined: (1) The top stone of a structure or wall. (2) The crowning achievement or final stroke; the culmination or acme.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (Rev. 22:13)
Jane: “Do you reject Jesus’s words? if you reject his words, you reject him!”
Amen sister. Read for the zillionth time what JESUS said in Matthew 19:
12
“Some are incapable of marriage … BECAUSE THEY HAVE RENOUNCED MARRIAGE FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. WHOEVER CAN ACCEPT THIS OUGHT TO ACCEPT IT.”
DOES IT GET ANY CLEARER THAN THAT? What’s not to get here ???????
No one is refuting you on any of your scripture passages about the goodness and the will of God in marriage. But can’t you see from the above scripture passage that God has another plan for those who can accept renouncing marraige for the sake of the kingdom???
This is not a question of marriage bad/celibacy good, or celibacy bad/marriage good.
It is a question of MARRIAGE GOOD/CELIBACY GOOD -it’s whatever is God’s will for the person and whom He calls according to His purpose.
Posted by: ?????
“If you think it so important to listen to Christ’s words, then listen to all of them. Why do you reject what He says through His apostle, Paul, about celibacy being a good thing? Why didn’t the Paul get married? Was he disobeying God?”
You can’t reject something that is not in the Bible. This was well explained above – kudos!
“Also, why do you reject Jesus’ words when he tells Peter “Who’s sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Who’s sins you retain are retained. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, will be loosed in heaven.”.
I do not dispute that the Church requires confession only one time a year.
“If the successors to Peter and the Apostles (the Pope and the Bishops) bind Catholic priests to celibacy, then they are bound. Your feelings about it (or mine) could not be less relevant.”
They are not bound to a rule that is not from God nor in the Bible. It’s not God nor Peter that created the rule of celibacy for the priesthood, it was the Church in the 11th century – check your history. The church did this not God.
“Again, if you fail to understand the great gift that God has given His Church through celibacy, then you have my pity and my prayers.”
Again, it is not a gift, it is a moral requirement and commandment until you are married, which God wills in creation. You have my pity for not seeing the truth.
“I admire all the young men in this “God or the Girl” show I also think the title is dumb), for their willingness to step out of this sex-obsessed culture long enough to consider a call to the priesthood.”
I agree that the title is dumb and untrue.
I am now looking around for a suitable burial site for this poor, dead horse we have been flogging.
Butch – I only referenced Isaiah 11:2 as a starting point. Forgive me that I didn’t mention the end point as well.
MB: If you are really reading the Bible, Matthew does not communicate that. You must read the complete communication between Jesus, the Pharisees and the disciples to realize He is talking about divorce. Do you not see that??
Matthew 19:3-12
3 Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?”
4 He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
7 They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?”
8 He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9 I say to you, 7 whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.”
10 [His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, 8 but only those to whom that is granted.
12 Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage 9 for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”
“BECAUSE THEY HAVE RENOUNCED MARRIAGE FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.”
So everyone renounce marriage, the world ceases to exist in a 100 years, and then the kindom of heaven will come. Do you think Jesus would like this? NO.
Jane,
The Church is the Body of Christ.
When you say “The church did this not God”, you reveal the depth of your confusion on the role of the Church.
It is Christ who has done this, through His Church.
And in the passage from Matthew, it is after the issue of divorce is settled that the disciples CLEARLY bring up the issue of marrying/not marrying, which Jesus addresses. They are confused, in that they think it “better not to marry”.
Jesus says that those who CAN accept this (remaining celibate for the sake of the kingdom) SHOULD accept it. If he were talking about divorce, do you think he was really saying that those who couldn’t “accept” his teaching were free to ignore it? “Don’t get divorced, unless you find that too hard to accept, in which case you can do what you like”??!?
Blessings to all.
I try to live my life by the commandments, Jesus’ commandments of LOVE, and the Word of God! I love God w/ my heart, mind, and soul! I try to love my neighbor as myself but, honestly, at times, it is very difficult, but the Lord knows that I am not perfect because there is only 1 perfect being and 1 truth and that is our Lord, Jesus Christ.
God has blessed me w/ a wonderful husband and family. I truly feel blessed and often feel like I’m floating on a cloud, like ecstasy. I can’t imagine my life w/out God’s blessings and family. I think of the Holy Family as a perfect example of what life is supposed to be and what God wants for us.
I loved what Marie wrote: When a man marries, his rib is returned to him and then he and she are ONE, are whole (see Genesis 2:21-24). This is so beautiful and true!
Blessings,
Julie D.
North Carolina
You’re right, Tim. The dissenters are covering the same ground over and over. They have had the Church’s teachings clearly explained to them, but continue to reject any of those teachings they don’t like and try to justify their disobedience and disbelief. We have done our best.
Lynea-
Do I think God would like it if all his followers chose to be celibate? No. Because He has called some to be married (and have kids) and some to be priests and religious.
We need to follow whatever vocation God has for us.
Its all good!
Jane-Well explained. Tim J-Renouncing marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven does not indicate anywhere to be celibate.
The Genesis passage gives the origin of the two sexes and of marriage. It does not in any way state that all people are called to marriage. Any honest look at the Mat. passage makes clear that while Jesus was talking about divorce to the Pharisees, the apostles propose it is better not to marry and Jesus responds to that comment.
Stop quoteing and misinterpreting the Bible on a Catholic blog folks. This isn’t the place for it. We interprete the Bible in light of the authority of the Church. You interpret it by your own self-proclamed authority. You will get nowhere fast that way.
Obviously, Tim, you have not had a relationship w/ a woman. What do you fear?
Just remember: It is not the responsibilty of the Church to make sure that any of its members get to heaven; that’s our responsibility. It is the responsibility of the Church, through her teachings, to make sure that, if one morning one of her members should wake up in Hell, he won’t have to wonder how he got there.
Butch,
How can one renounce marriage (in this context surely meening not marry at all) without being celibate or sinning?
“Obviously, Tim, you have not had a relationship w/ a woman. What do you fear?”
Lynea, when you make an adolescent remark you make it hard for adults to take you seriously.
Lynea, passionately debating theology is one thing, but a low blow like that is another thing. You owe Tim an apology.
Julie D, Lynea, Jane-
I am also happily married, for almost 25 years. God called my wife and me to the married life, and has blessed us with children. We have found peace in fulfilling God’s vocation for our lives, and in being faithful to our vows.
I’m glad you are happy in the vocation to which God has called you. I am grateful for all good, Christian families.
I am also grateful to God for all those whom He has called to celibacy for the sake of His Kingdom… all priests & religious, brothers and sisters. All are in my prayers.
Wow, I actually made my last post before I knew that I had been accused of being afraid of women!
That’s hilarious!
So, “obviously” ANYONE who has ” had a relationship w/ a woman” could not possibly accept the teaching of the Church on celibacy… could not possibly hold celibate priests and religious in high regard.
That just reveals SO much.
That’s right Tim.
At the same time though, one does not have to be married to discuss the merits of celibacy, any more than one has to be celibate to discuss the merits of marriage.
As always the issue is authority. God established His Church with His authority to teach and preach.
I hope everyone who does not hear the Church understands they do not hear Christ and in fact reject Him and God the Father who sent Him.
And one more time Catholic = kata holos according to the whole not what we pick and chose. Heresy comes from the Greek verb to chose.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Call me untraditional, but somehow I hope that those who reject the Church do not know they are rejecting Christ, with inculpable ignorance, because then there is a chance for their salvation (future conversion asside of course).
Naturally we can not keep people in the dark about the necessity of accepting the Church and all Her teachings. That would not be fair to anyone.
It’s Christ’s desire that all be saved (1Tim2:1) so to wish and pray for everyone’s salvation is a good and holy thing to do. I don’t judge anyone, but pray earnestly for everyone to be saved.
Amen, MB.
That is why I speak hypothetically, like saying “if someone commits a mortal sin and does not repent they will not be saved.” This judges no one, but it is a true statement.
Dear Bill912: I would prefer that you defend something w/ scripture not books. Thanks!
Posted by: Andrea S. | Apr 19, 2006 7:51:20 AM
Here are your answers Andrea/Jane
Celibacy
Many people outside the church don’t understand priestly celibacy. Apologist and author Dr. Raymond De Souza explains the reason for priestly celibacy as well as sacred scripture to back it up.
http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?rafile=gewd07.ra&source=seriessearchprog.asp&seriesID=7080&T1=Good+or+Evil
Celibacy in the New Testament
In our culture many find no need for celibacy in the single life, in priesthood or even in marriage. Apologist and author Dr. Raymond De Souza explains celibacy and what it means for people, whatever their calling in life may be.
http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?rafile=gewd08.ra&source=seriessearchprog.asp&seriesID=7080&T1=Good+or+Evil
The first audio file is extremely good it provides OT reference which forshadows Jesus Christ / Celibacy and the Priesthood
If God called you to be married, He obviously wasn’t calling you to be a Franciscan friar any longer.
By this logic, if God called you to be married to Sally, He obviously wasn’t calling you to be married to Sue any longer, and we can overlook the prohibitions on divorce.
You must read the complete communication between Jesus, the Pharisees and the disciples to realize He is talking about divorce. Do you not see that??
Apparently you have not read the complete communication yourself. After hearing the teaching on divorce, the disciples say not marrying would be better. He tells them “Not all can accept [this] word, but only those to whom that is granted.” — are you trying to say that this applies to the prohibition of divorce he just laid out? Obviously not. Paul recommends celibacy to those to whom that is granted, but prohibits divorce, a prohibition he got from the Lord.
“If you think it so important to listen to Christ’s words, then listen to all of them. Why do you reject what He says through His apostle, Paul, about celibacy being a good thing? Why didn’t the Paul get married? Was he disobeying God?”
You can’t reject something that is not in the Bible. This was well explained above – kudos!
blink, blink, blink
No, no one explained above that the Pauline Letters are not in the Bible. Please explain it. You will have some difficulty in that the Catholics believe — the Church told them — that Paul’s letters are
God or the Girl?
Mexican Priest Confesses to Killing Lover
(in TOLUCA, Mexico)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060420/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_priest_slaying;_ylt=AqcIso8ZrCPY20NYIIh.ZBNvaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA–
Maria Lopez in New Mexico,
Do you have a point to make?
That is a horrible occurrence just like every murder.
It is irrelevant to the discussion just like stories about adultery would be. This post is about discerning your vocation, living it chastely and being faithful to your vows.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Dear Maria Lopez,
What a upsetting story! Its devestating to see a man/priest have an immoral relationship and then kill the lover to, possibly, cover it up. We should forgive him and pray for him as the Church tells us too.
God Bless,
Sally
J+M+J
“If God called you to be married, He obviously wasn’t calling you to be a Franciscan friar any longer.
By this logic, if God called you to be married to Sally, He obviously wasn’t calling you to be married to Sue any longer, and we can overlook the prohibitions on divorce.”
Mary-
Perhaps I didn’t put that well. My point was that one is called to marriage, or not. I don’t think that God calls people to be priests or religious “for a while”.
Since the fellow is now married, he was either mistaken about his vocation to be a Franciscan friar, or he abandoned that vocation against God’s will. In my haste, I didn’t say what I should have, which is that he was obviously not cut out to be a Franciscan (or any other kind of) friar.
In either case, he is now absolutely called to fulfill his marriage vows and remain married.
Anyone know how the Church looks on the true vocation of a laicized priest or religious?
Yes, How the Church looks on a laicized priest or religious?
God Bless,
Sally
J+M+J
I found this online:
Roman Catholicism
The Council of Trent (session XIII, canon IV) declared that the sacrament of ordination imbues the recipient with an indelible “priestly character” Therefore the return of an ordained priest to the lay state is absolutely impossible, However, laicization, which takes from a priest the licit (authorized) use of his powers, and other rights, can occur by various means.
A priest is automatically laicized when he marries or joins the military without permission, A priest may be voluntarily laicized by his superiors at his request, A priest may be involuntarily laicized for wrongdoing, Minor clerics, including priests, are laicized through the “penalty of degradation”, Major clerics can be laicized by the Holy See.
Laicized priests are forbidden to wear clerical habit, identify themselves as priests, or administer the sacraments, The only exception would be to hear a confession in an emergency situation, They are required to continue practicing celibacy although dispensations can be made, By laicization a priest loses the right of benefice which in modern times means he will not be supported by the Church even after retirement.
A laicized priest still has the power to confect the Eucharist but cannot use it licitly.
Let’s start with Blessed Emilian Kovc, he was a married priest from Ukraine who hid many Jews and stood up to the Nazis and was martyred for it.
Celebacy is not a requirement for the Holy Priesthood, it is a discipline imposed by the Latin Church.
In the East (Catholic and Orthodox) men are allowed to be ordained to the Deaconate and Priesthood if they are already married. If a man is ordained he can no longer marry. This is also true for a widowed married priest, although there have been some exceptions. A married priest functions like a diocesan priest in the Latin Church. Celebate monastic priests are nevertheless held in higher esteem than a married priest and these men are chosen for the episcopacy.
In the beginning there have ALWAYS been married AND celebate priests, even in the Latin Church. But now the discipline allows married priests in the Eastern Catholic Churches.
Dr Eric,
I most certainly agree w/ you. Celibacy is a disipline (a set of rules or methods, as those regulating the practice of a church or monastic order). Celibacy is not God’s rule but Church rule only!
Peace,
Liz
Liz,
“Celibacy is not God’s rule but Church rule only!
We have been through all of this already. Our Blessed Lord gave His authority to bind and loose to the Church. Our Blessed Lord said those that do not hear who He sent do not hear Him and reject Him and God the Father.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Well, Inocencio, according to your judgement, I have rejected God for being married and having innate sex and having children. I wonder who Jesus will judge more harshly, me for listening to the Creator and Reedemer or you for following church rule. Oh, and lets not forget, that when Jesus returns for the final judgement, He’s going to judge his children on 3 things, you know them because there in the CCC and you’ve read that cover to cover, and they don’t include celibacy or listening to man-made church rules!
God Bless you too!
Liz
Liz,
If you would read the catechism it states marriage is a good and celibacy is better. Just as our Blessed Lord pointed out and St. Paul also said.
I am married and have 6 children so far. That is my vocation as a husband and father. You have your vocation and a ordained Catholic priest has his.
Luke 10:16
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
“Well, Inocencio, according to your judgement, I have rejected God for being married …”
No one said that. You KNOW that nobody here believes it, and if you had anything of substance to add, you would have already done so.
Some are called to marriage, some to celibacy. You don’t want to hear this, so why keep returning?
Yes, celibacy is an authoritative, legitimately established discipline, not an absolute biblical requirement for the priesthood, as has already been discussed ad nauseum…
Thank God for the gift He has given His Church in celibate priests and religious, as well as in holy Christian families!
God bless y’all!
Thought I’d add my 2 cents one more time, but I just wanted y’all to know that a very good female friend of mine is currently discerning a call to be a consecrated virgin. It is a rare vocation – this means that she will remain a “lay” person living in the world, with a career and such, but wants to dedicate herself and her virginity and enter into a “spousal” relationship with Christ. She is a very fun, outgoing, attractive and intelligent person. She is not deranged, needy, or reclusive.
The call is the call – you can all make of it what you will, but when the Lord calls you to a certain state in life, especially if He wants you to be in an exclusively dedicated relationship with Him – you discern the call, and then make a decision whether or not you feel you can answer the call.
And as an aside – to be called to be a nun or a priest does not mean that God loves them better than married people. He loves all and both vocations are holy. He has different missions for each vocation.
Remember that there are convents of cloistered nuns all over the world who intercede morning, noon and night DAILY for the salvation of the world and for people’s intentions. Could a group of married people do this every day?
God, however, respects our free will, and as St. Paul says it is better to marry than to “burn”. But many people here have given ample Scripture verses to show that while marriage is the normal vocation and most are called to it, there are a few whom the Lord calls to the consecrated life, and celibacy in order to serve Him more exclusively.
Liz,
you keep written “man made rules” obedience is a God made rule learn it!
The dynamics of the Church at the time of the Protestant Reformation was overwhelming, much going on with political powers at work, monarchs wanting more power and wealth (Kings of france and princes of the Germany states etc. basically non-relgious men), the Muslims attacking Austria (center of the Holy Roman Empire), the final lost of Constantinople and finally the fight for a Christian Spain. The disolving of Catholic charity in England where the people lost their welfare in the monastries for the sick, orphaned and elderly all stolen by so-called Anglican and Purtian liberators of the people total rubbish.
The Protestant answer was never the answer because it was filled with disobedience. Christ instructed us to obey our elders he did not claim they would be sinless, and impecciable.
Kevin
Having written what I have written I want to make the point that the Pope and the Heirarchy of the Latin Church is well within its power to impose celebacy of its priests. Also, if necessary, the Latin Church can also relax that discipline. The Church of Rome can do what She wants as far as discipline in accordance with the Scriptures: Matt 16:18, et al.
Kevin:
“you keep written “man made rules” obedience is a God made rule learn it!”
We must be obedient to the one-true-living God and not to man-made laws that go against God’s commandments. Those who go against God, change God’s will and the Bible, will answer to God accordingly.
Dr Eric:
“Having written what I have written I want to make the point that the Pope and the Heirarchy of the Latin Church is well within its power to impose celebacy of its priests. Also, if necessary, the Latin Church can also relax that discipline. The Church of Rome can do what She wants as far as discipline in accordance with the Scriptures: Matt 16:18, et al.”
Matthew 16:18 – And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
Jesus built his church on Peter, yes, but Jesus did not give Peter or any other the authority to change God’s will and create laws that go against His will! I shall follow God as the Apostles did in Acts.
Acts 5:29-33 – But Peter and the apostles said in reply, “We must obey God rather than men.
The God of our ancestors raised Jesus, though you had him killed by hanging him on a tree.
God exalted him at his right hand as leader and savior to grant Israel repentance and forgiveness of sins. We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him.” When they heard this, they became infuriated and wanted to put them to death.
God’s peace to all,
ME
“I shall follow God as the Apostles in Acts did.” They followed Peter.
Mary Elizabeth: I’m not aware of any “man-made laws that go against God’s commandments” mentioned above. What are you talking about?
How can we be sure we are following God and doing what He wants unless we follow the Vicar of Christ, to whom our Lord imparted His own Authority?
Mary Elizabeth,
What gives you the authority to say that celibacy contradicts God’s will when the Bible and Apostolic Tradition says nothing of the sort.
We must obey God rather than men.
The Sanhedrin and the Jewish High Priest had no authority over Christians, at least by the time Peter said this, and never had the kind of authority the Apostles and their successors have.
The apostles, and their successors, teach with the authority of Christ, who said to them “he who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
The apostle Paul, and the successors of the apostles, not to mention Jesus, have consistantly taught by word and example (a few big sinners aside when it comes to example) the value of the gift of celibacy. You are simply not free to reject this, for in doing so you are following teachers who tickle your ears and not to God, with whose authority the Church teaches.
As St. Paul wrote in first letter to St. Timothy, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
The Church also teaches that the virtue of Faith is belief in God, in all God has said, and all His Church proposes for our belief.
If you do not accept this, then your faith is imperfect and quite fallible. I say this not to be insulting or to say there is no way you can be saved (if you are not culpable for your lack of belief) but I say it because we Catholics think on a completely different wavelength about the teachings of the Church than you.
It is true that mandatory priestly celibacy is a matter of discipline and could be lifted. Indeed exceptions are made in some unusual circumstances today, and most Eastern rites do not require celibacy of priests (but do require it of bishops and of course monks). It is probably within the rights of a Catholic to suggest the requirment should be lifted for practical reasons like alleviating the priest shortage, but not to reject Church teaching (and a simple reading of Scripture) in saying celibacy is against God’s will. Even so, obstinant, disrespectful, argumentative disagreement with a well meant, moral, traditional Church discipline would be anything but the humble, charitable, and obedient attitude we laypeople should have towards those in legitimate positions of authority over us, especially in the Church.