Hey
I was surfing the web and i saw this site, pretty cool.
Currently im running and adult site:Reachton
k, just want to say hi :)
Can i link you from my site? im looking for quality content like yours. If no let me know if i can add u in exchange for a montly fee or something.

Hey
I was surfing the web and i saw this site, pretty cool.
Currently im running and adult site:Reachton
k, just want to say hi :)
Can i link you from my site? im looking for quality content like yours. If no let me know if i can add u in exchange for a montly fee or something.

It seems to me that the members of the LC are pious men and women with sincere, holy fear of God, judgement and going to hell. I have read the statement made by the LC in the National Catholic Register (not to be confused with the National Catholic Reporter). If Fr. Maciel is in genuine fear of God and his Perfect Judgement, why would he deny the current accusations against him, and allow the religious community he founded to print a public letter maintaining his innocence? The Legionaries of Christ, of all people are acutely aware that all things written and spoken will reverberate throughout eternity. I find it very hard to beleive that they would publicly and intentionally lie, rendering themselves into a state of mortal sin.
Furthermore, the LC are a healty, vibrant movement in the modern Church. This current situation is a gushing wound in the side of the Church. Vulgar publications, like the National Catholic Reporter seem to take so much glee and satisfaction with tearing apart the LC. Even if the accusations leveled against Fr. Maciel are true, I have yet to hear about any similar accusations of other Legionary Priests, and if there are such accusations, they cannot be used to speak of the character of the rest of the LC Community. The more appropriate action would be to pray for all of the parties involved. Lord have Mercy if the alleged abuse occured, and Lord have Mercy if false accusations were leveled against Fr. Maciel!

Glenn- huh?

Plain text:
"Independently of the person of the Founder, the worthy apostolate of the Legionaries of Christ and of the Association 'Regnum Christi' is gratefully recognized."
Mince words if you want to, but this seems to praise the apostolate of the group (i.e. schools, conferences...) but not the group itself.

Brian,
Why don't you quote some anonymous source and tell us.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

The L of C constitutions, approved by the Vatican, say the person of the Founder CANNOT be separated from the L of C and RC. So, which one is right? The new communique? Or the L of C one that was approved by the Vatican years ago?

Ah yes, and just gloss over the rest of the communique... How convenient for your preconceived notions and personal worldview!
To accept that the Church has called LC a worthy apostolate is a preconceived notion and personal worldview. Ok.
How convenient for you to ignore the plain text of the document.
I have already stated that everything Fr. Maciel has been accused of might be true but pardon me if I wait for the documentation as opposed to accepting your opinion and anonymous sources.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

The analysis from the canon lawyer defining the words used in the communique from a canonical perspecitve, and further presuming the status of a supposed trial - and potential results of such a trial - by applying canon law to the prior definitions, was... simply delightful.
However, I'm still waiting for the aforementioned sources in regards to the "100 people" and all (National Catholic Reporter editorials notwithstanding).
Thanks

Brian, I made no "ad hominem attack against someone's credentials." I asked to see them.
"Obviously you cannot refute the facts." I haven't tried to refute anything. I pointed out that some people have tried to stretch the known facts to fit a conclusion the facts are insufficient to support. That is an assumption, not a conclusion. The assumption, like all assumptions, may be correct. I think that there is enough evidence to warrant what, in legal terms, is called "Reasonable Suspicion" regarding Father Maciel.
(Ed Peters, if my last sentence is incorrect, please correct me.)

Innocencio,
Again, I will accept the opinion that they are a "worthy apostolate" Please understand if I accept the Church's opinion over yours.
Ah yes, and just gloss over the rest of the communique... How convenient for your preconceived notions and personal worldview!

The canon lawyer has credentials, is well known and respected. He has asked to remain anonymous due to possible real reprisals from the Legion of Christ.
Deal with the contents rather than conducting ad hominem against someone's credentials. It is well respected journalistic practice to use background information in sensitive stories when the content is impeachable and no other sources "for attribution" can be found.
I really don't care if you believe the contents of the post or not. Obviously, you cannot refute the facts. If something is true, it really doesn't matter who said it.

"They are Legion!"
Again, I will accept the opinion that they are a "worthy apostolate" Please understand if I accept the Church's opinion over yours.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

The fact as stated as "100 corroborating interviews" is true according to my source, who wishes to remain anonymous, but had access to the details.
This analysis is from a reputable canon lawyer.
Come on Bill912 can't you just believe him because he said it?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

"This analysis is from a reputable canon lawyer." Does this canon lawyer have a name and credentials? You have to supply that, Brian, or else everything you wrote in capitals is meaningless.
I'll try this one more time. Father Maciel may be guilty of everything he has been assumed to be guilty of, but we haven't been given enough evidence to conclude that.

I apologize in advance for the all caps. SQ, you are wrong. This analysis is from a reputable canon lawyer. When someone is suspended for gross crimes against humanity (as Fr. Maciel committed), it is in the utmost interest and duty to society to warn people against him and his accomplices.
"They are Legion!"
THE WORD “HEARING” ONLY APPEARS IN THE ENGLISH VERSION, NOT THE ORIGINAL ITALIAN VERSION. THE ORIGINAL ITALIAN VERSION STATES THAT AFTER THE CONCLUSION OF AN INVESTIGATION OF CRIMES RESERVED TO THE CDF UNDER S.S.T.[, AND AD EXEQUENDAM OF 2001], THE CDF – TAKING INTO ACCOUNT CIRCUMSTANCES AFFECTING MACIEL’S HEALTH – DECIDED “TO RENOUNCE A CANONICAL TRIAL”.
TWO THINGS.
FIRST, “RENOUNCE” IN CANON LAW, WHEN IT IS FOUND IN THE CODE, IS ONLY USED TO DESCRIBE THE SITUATION WHERE A JUDICIAL TRIAL HAS ALREADY BEEN STARTED, AND THEN STOPPED – “RENOUNCED” – BECAUSE OF THE REQUEST OF THE ORDINARY OR PLAINTIFF. SO ACTUALLY, THE ORIGINAL WORD “RENOUNCE” SUGGESTS THAT A TRIAL MAY HAVE EVEN BEEN PARTIALLY HELD….
SECONDLY, THE WORD “JUDGMENT” ONLY REGARDS THE FACT THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO “SENTENCE,” OR JUDGMENT – NOT OPINION FORMED BY THE CDF CONSULTORS ON THE MERITS OF THE CASE. THE MERE FACT THAT THE CDF ASSUMED JURISDICTION OVER THE CASE IS BECAUSE A) THERE WAS SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE, APPROXIMATING PROBABLE CAUSE; AND B) ENOUGH EVIDENCE OF PROBABLE CAUSE SPECIFICALLY REGARDING CRIMES AGAINST EITHER THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY PENANCE OR ABUSE OF MINORS.
NORMALLY, AT THE CONCLUSION OF AN INVESTIGATION, IF THE ORDINARY DOES NOT ISSUE A FULL EXONERATION, THE ORDINARY OR SUPERIOR IN PRINCIPLE DECIDES TO PROSECUTE EITHER A) VIA JUDICIAL TRIAL, OR B) ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS;
THE EXCEPTION IS UNDER CAN. 1718-1 CIC AND CAN. 1341 CIC WHEN THE ORDINARY DECIDES THAT A TRIAL OR ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS IS TO BE AVOIDED BECAUSE REPAIRING OF SCANDAL, RESTORATION OF JUSTICE, AND REFORM OF “OFFENDER” CAN BE OBTAINED WITHOUT TRIAL OR ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS. SO IF THERE IS NO FULL EXONERATION, BUT SOMETHING “IN BETWEEN” FULL INNOCENCE AND FULL GUILT, THAT MEANS, UNDER CAN. 1341, THAT ONE IS TO ASSUME THAT THE OFFENSE WAS COMMITTED. JUST BECAUSE THERE WILL NOT BE A SENTENCE OR DECREE ISSUED AFTER A WHOLE LENGTHY AND TEDIOUS PROCESS OF A TRIAL OR ADMINISTRATIVE DECREE, I.E. LACK OF “JUDGMENT” DOES NOT MEAN LACK OF GUILT ADJUDICATED. IT CAN ONLY MEAN THAT IF THERE IS A FULL EXONERATION.
AS THERE IS NO FULL EXONERATION, IT IS “PRESUMED” THAT MACIEL IS GUILTY OF AT LEAST ONE DELICT RESERVED EXCLUSIVELY TO THE CDF UNDER THE INSTRUCTION “SACRAMENTUM SANCTITATIS TUTELA” SINCE HE HAS BEEN “INVITED” TO FULFILL PENANCE AS A RESULT OF A CANONICAL INVESTIGATION INTO HEINOUS CRIMES FOR WHICH THERE EXISTS SERIOUS EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING.
BOTTOMLINE: IN USING THE WORD “RENOUNCE,” THE CDF LEFT OPEN THE REASONABLE POSSIBILITY OF COMMUNICATING THAT A JUDICIAL PROCESS WAS IN FACT BEGUN, BUT CLOSED AFTER THE DEFENDANT AGREED TO THE PASTORAL MEASURES OFFERED HIM TO AVOID A VERY EMBARASSING JUDGMENT WHICH WOULD SERIOUSLY IMPACT IN A NEGATIVE WAY THE LEGIONARIES OF CHRIST.
THE PASTORAL MEASURES WHICH MACIEL WAS INVITED TO IMPLEMENT ARE WITHOUT DOUBT AT LEAST SOME OF THE SAME MEANS NORMALLY IMPOSED ON A GUILTY DEFENDANT IN ORDER TO RESTORE JUSTICE, REPAIR SCANDAL, AND REFORM THE OFFENDER. AGAIN, IT APPEARS THAT THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPOSED ON HIM ANYWAY HAD THE TRIAL BEEN EITHER BEGUN OR CONCLUDED, DEPENDING ON THE TRUE INTERPRETATION OF THE WORD “RENOUNCE.”
FINALLY, THE LACK OF THE DEFENDANT BEING CITED “WITH GRATITUDE” AT THE END OF THE COMMUNIQUÉ IMPLIES DIRECTLY THAT FR. MACIEL WAS IN FACT GUILTY OF WRONGDOING IN A MATTER RESERVED TO THE CDF UNDER SACRAMENTUM SANCTITATIS TUTELA – VIZ. ABSOLUTION OF AN ACCOMPLICE IN PECCATO CONTRA SEXTUM, OR MOLESTATION OF MINORS

ExLC,
I pray for your healing. You don't seem to understand that nowhere in the Vatican statement is there a mention of guilt or innocence, yet you continue to claim guilt. How is this honest? How is this Charity? You have found Jimmy Akins comment box to advertize your seeming hatred for all that is LC, and continue to link to your uncharitable website.
You and others have made judgements of guilt when our Church hasn't even claimed to. Let us all look at ourselves and see how we can build the Kingdom. How are these judgements good for the Church? Does this even matter in your life now? What can we do to build rather than tear down? Does God want you to cling to this? Are you converting people to the Love of Christ or trying to make them bitter and suspicious? Where in the Gospel is this?
Love is patient, Love is Kind, Love endures all, Love does not take offense.
We are all called to this near impossible goal, but Christ showed that it wasn't impossible.
We are called to bear fruit and to judge by the fruits, being patient, kind, enduring all, and not taking offense.
May God Bless You,
SQ

"St. Pio was falsely accused of of having affairs with women penitents. For several years, he was forbidden to celebrate the sacraments publically, to write to his spiritual children, or to preach. In other words, he was accused of sexual improprieties(just like MM) and was forbidden to do what MM has been asked not to do."
Bill--
See exLC's comment about the rather critical chronological differences between the two situations.
You are right about my unnecessary attack--in the unlikely event that Father Marcial reads this blog, I do apologize for attacking him.
The real problem is the Vatican's less-than-harsh punishment.
The other problem is the willful ignorance of people who still think he'll be canonized. A news flash: People who have been THOROUGHLY INVESTIGATED by the Holy See (remember, these accusations are DECADES old, NOT like St. Padre Pio's) and given Fr. Marcial's sentence simply will not be canonized. Blessed Mother Teresa had a hard enough time getting past Hitchens and crew. Fr. Marcial, whether you wish to believe it or not, has clearly done something improper. If he had not, the Holy See would not have "punished" him.

The REGISTER Piece:
http://www.ncregister.com/articulo4.php?artkod=NDk...
More propoganda and lies from the Legion, again turning a finding of guilt and corresponding merited punishment into a special cross. Let us consider them.
Propoganda:
We love B16 and "We do not question his decision or his wisdom" yet Maciel "becomes like an accused priest awaiting trial. Only, in this case, there will be no trial."
Truth:
Maciel is not a priest waiting for trial. There is no trial because he believed to be guilty and that the administrative punishment was merited by Maciel and considered sufficient. If B16 is wise, Maciel receives deserved punishment. If innocent, B16 is unwise.
Cross or merited punishment? Wise or unjust?
Propoganda:
"We don’t try to hide difficulties in the Church"
Truth:
The Register never reported on any stories regarding the accusations against Fr. Maciel until they lied about his "exhoneration." According to the Register, a meaningless, unsigned fax from an irrelevant congregation saying "not foreseen" was transformed by the Register into an authoritative "Maciel Exhonerated" because there "will not be" a trial.
Propaganda
Maciel "refusing to defend himself"
Truth:
His machine, the Legion, has defended him from the start. Nothing happens in the Legion without Maciel's ultimate approval. He is defending himself via the members.
Propaganda:
Owen Kearns can write a real, heart to heart note.
Truth:
While he may actually believe what he writes, everyone needs to keep in mind the following norms, rules, and General Chapter exhortations when dealing with any Legionary:
1) The private vow (paraphrase) "I vow never to criticize the actions or the person of a superior and to inform the superior if I am aware that anyone else breaks this vow."
2) 567. Out of love for the Legion and a sense of responsibility take care not to communicate to outsiders anything that might be misinterpreted about the diverse context of religious life in the Legion, anything that might be used against the Legion, anything which superiors have not authorized you to communicate, and anything that might imply scorn of the Legion.
181.1 Read and personally and assiduously meditate on the Constitutions, the letters and conferences of Nuestro Padre and the additional sources of spirituality that have flowed from his lips and his pen, taking from these readings and meditations the force and supernatural enthusiasm to live each day more in accordance with the legionary ideal.
184. 1 The writings and conferences of Nuestro Padre should constitute, along with the Gospel of Christ, the principal source of inspiration for spiritual exercises, triduums, retreats, short courses, seminars, conferences, study circles, discussions, articles and publications.
192. All legionaries should redouble their efforts to master the custom of always speaking well of all legionaries, as is recommended to us in canon 142 of the Constitutions, in order to praise and point out their good qualities, to recognize their particular capabilities, to in turn create in them an atmosphere of appreciation and esteem both inside and outside of the Legion, to silence and excuse their flaws and mistakes, and if necessary to nobly defend them.
438. This integration means identifying with the Founder, with his spirit, his mind, his mission, his life.
441. With this in mind, the Chapter establishes these norms and directives in order to instill [fomentar in Spanish] the knowledge, the love and the identification with the mind and work of Our Father Founder:
453. He [Maciel] indicated that he is more concerned about the probable but vain attempt by some of his enemies who, owing to the demise of the Founder, will try from the outside to sow discord and division within the Legion. Because of this, he allowed himself to recommend that starting now, whenever by the will of God this crisis presents itself, a collective behavior of our members characterized by serenity, discretion, harmony, and prayer in the midst of pain be observed.
469. Since it has been ordained by God that the person and life or Our Father Founder cannot be separated from the life and spirituality of the Legion, we the Chapter Fathers recognize the necessity to carefully gather and conserve all material dealing with the person, life, work and word of Our Founder. Towards that end, we intend the following:
-- In conclusion, Fr. Owen Kearns LC is a masterful Legionary propagandist and apologist. A perfect Macielista. However, he couldn't tell the full truth, even if he was still capable of recognizing it.

Oh, c'mon, are you sure you can't reveal your sources? "Inquiring minds want to know!"

http://www.ncregister.com/articulo4.php?artkod=NDk...
Kool Aid anyone? This is really sad if it wasn't so frightening.

The fact as stated as "100 corroborating interviews" is true according to my source, who wishes to remain anonymous, but had access to the details. Perhaps the other reporters/editors should interview someone instead of cutting and pasting old information from websites.
Just a thought...

Thanks for de-bolding the conversation, Jimmy!
I've been wondering about that Wanderer article. It's the only place I've seen the other interviews described as "corroborating." Elsewhere, the only conclusion I could draw was that there were the 9 original accusers (minus the one who recanted under oath), then the investigator had somewhere between 20 and 100 other people who asked to be interviewed.
I've been unable to find the substance of these interviews. It seems they may have been people saying, like exLC, "Maciel didn't sexually abuse me, but I don't like the Legion b/c of these other things," or they may have been more accusations. I haven't gotten the latter impression, however, from anywhere but the above mentioned article. Mershon makes the leap from "100 interviews" to "100 essentially corroborating interviews" without explaining how.
God bless.

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/mershon/060518
More than 100 corroborating interviews accusing Fr. Maciel.
Are all 100 lying modernists out to destroy the Legion of Christ and His Church?
I don't think so. Many are conservative, orthodox priests, fathers, husbands and professionals who merely want their broken lives repaired.

Padre Pio was suspended while the investigation(s) were going on, and THEN he was cleared and fully restored. Maciel has been investigated extensively, implicitly found guilty, and punished. The Pope and the CDF believe he is guilty or they would not be punishing him and none of this discussion would be taking place.
Regarding the development of "understanding" of vocation. No one fully knows how their vocation in life will unfold. However, the Legion purposely denies information to recruits and members at every level. You enter without being told anything. You profess with only 1/2 the Constitutions and none of the General Chapter information. There is a 3rd version of the Constitutions for priests (I am told this by others, I haven't seen it). Other rules and norms are given after profession. In other words, this is a cult tactic, not genuine recruitment.

St. Pio was falsely accused of of having affairs with women penitents. For several years, he was forbidden to celebrate the sacraments publically, to write to his spiritual children, or to preach. In other words, he was accused of sexual improprieties(just like MM) and was forbidden to do what MM has been asked not to do.

WonderTwin boldface off!

"The Holy Father does not ask future saints to retire to a private life of penance and remove them from celebrating the sacraments." That is *exactly* what happened to Padre Pio. He spent several years with precisely this sentence - to leave public ministry of any kind, no public Masses, no confessions."
My apologies.
In all that I have read of Padre Pio, I never came across those 9+ accusations of his having sexually gratified himself with young males under his care. It seems that even his detractors left out that rather major point.
But I know that since his case is "EXACTLY" like Marcial's, you'll provide the relevant citations soon enough, nicht?

Sorry, that was me.
(grrr)

"She had in fact, already had the abortion and had a few days to reverse it."
Huh? You either have an abortion or not. They are not reversible.
I say again... Huh?

I'm not a member of RC and I'm not a Legionary, or ex legionary, but I do know many members of both groups and I can say without a doubt, that they are some of the most holy and smartest people I know. From what I have gathered through my experiences is that Legionary priests and LC in general have one goal, "the salvation of souls" and almost all of them, or at least all I have met are great people. Yes in talking with the seminarians and the priests, their life is rigorous, but it isn't for everyone, and they do churn out fantastic priests, who are holy, intelligent, down to earth, and willing to embrace anyone who they feel that they can help get to heaven.
But back to this Maciel thing. I admit, it doesn't sound good, and one has to acknowledge that the vatican must have at the minimum had enough information to at least suspect wrong doing. If they had none, they would have done no action towards Fr. Maciel. One thing people are overlooking, is the vow of obedience, which Legionaries obey to the extreme, even if Fr. maciel knew himself innocent, he would not challange the Vatican's order. I see a few possibilities here.
1. The allegations look to be true and the Vatican choose to let Fr. maciel live out his life without pressing further, because they didn't want to inflict damage upon the Legion, which does great things for the Church.
2. The allegations cannot be ignored without an investigation, regardless of whether true or false, For instance, suppose that there was an accusation and Fr. maciel had no alibi, he would have to defend himself. In which case after weighing the alternative, the vatican realized that a trial would do nothing to prove either point, and asked Fr. maciel to suspend public ministry, this being the path of least harm to all.
3. Fr. Maciel is indeed innocent, and is simply to old and frail to travel to italy for a trial. in which case the vatican chose the do what they could to appease all parties and stop the proceedings.
One thing is for certain, we will perhaps never know, but none the less, even if it was true, does one bad apple ruin the whole bunch. I say no! And to go on to bad apples, if anyone is still reading I would like to share a story about a priest I used to alter serve for as a boy. For about two years i served for this priest and down the road, many allegations came out about child molestation. I was never a victim nor did I know of any, but he ended up being convicted and sent to prison for 14 years for his offenses. A few years later my mom told me a story of how my cousin (much older than I) was considering having an abortion and she had sent her to Fr. ? to discuss it. She had in fact, already had the abortion and had a few days to reverse it. Fr. ? talked her out of the abortion and that child is now (in a few weeks) graduating from high school and is a very successful young lady. Did he do horrible things? Yes of course. Did he also do great things? Yes he did those too. If we take anything from this, we should take the following. Regardless of whether you think him guilty or innocent, those who know the legion cannot ignore the fact that Fr. Maciel has done great things for the Church and for its followers. That cannot be doubted.

[/b]Actually, the young nun in the book was explaining to her family the regulations, as she did not seem to know what they would be prior to entering, either. Part of entering a religious order is the call - if you feel God is calling you to something approved by the Church, you accept all that that will entail, not always knowing what it will be. Some things are too detailed to explain thoroughly in advance, but if someone has a call, they go, and if they don't, they don't. Our Blessed Mother did not know lay ahead of her; she just said, "Let it be."
"The Holy Father does not ask future saints to retire to a private life of penance and remove them from celebrating the sacraments." That is *exactly* what happened to Padre Pio. He spent several years with precisely this sentence - to leave public ministry of any kind, no public Masses, no confessions.

exLC,
You again interpret the pope's actions with out quoting anything the pope actually said regarding the matter.
I think the article of Dr. Ed Peters that Jimmy linked to gives a very balanced understanding of what we do
know.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

I must imagine that you never read the Vatican's release. The Holy Father does not ask future saints to retire to a private life of penance and remove them from celebrating the sacraments. If you think a perfectly innocent man would receive that sentence, you're free to wallow in ignorance.
Is there something I'm missing here? Was Fr. Maciel removed from celebrating the sacraments? From the Vatican's statement it appears he was invited to remove himself from public ministry. Do you mean to state that he can no longer celebrate Mass and hear confession?

It's always amusing to see people hop in with condemnations of "judging others" before they then proceed to do precisely the same thing.
Earlier in the thread we have:
"Glad to see you are siting in the judgement seat!.The Good father may well become a saint. Padre Pio was censured as well. Seem..the liberal, Spirit of VAT2 neo catholics are rejoicing in this tragedy. You can have your day..who's end is the pit."
So, after being denounced for judging, I am told that I will "end in the pit," a comment I presume to be a not-so-subtle relegating of myself to hell. Thanks, dear poster.
For you to compare Marcial to Padre Pio is absurd.
I must imagine that you never read the Vatican's release. The Holy Father does not ask future saints to retire to a private life of penance and remove them from celebrating the sacraments. If you think a perfectly innocent man would receive that sentence, you're free to wallow in ignorance.
For the record, I judged no one. I never said, nor do I know what will happen to Marcial after this vale of tears comes to its end.
But what is certain is that the last time this happened and the Vatican was TOO LENIENT, PEOPLE LEFT THE CHURCH!
We are speaking here of SOULS; this is not something light and frothy. A HARD stance must be taken, and it was not.
In the future, I recommend that, when you are going to cast aspersions on another's post, you first read the relevant background information, then consider whether or not a judgment is really present, THEN blast someone and tell them they will end up in hell.

Joselyns,
You are demonstrating a point which I haven't been clear enough about. The LC presents one face while the reality (a very strict form of isolation) is hidden. You almost would not think an LC priest is any different from a diocesan priest. Many of the rules are not fully given or explained even until AFTER first profession. Had I known even a few of the above prior to entering, I never would have joined. These things are slowly revealed, while one is simultaneously being convinced that this IS God's will for you. (And by the way, souls will go to hell if you don't stay). Yes, many leave, some are asked to leave, but most are convinced to stay using a variety of techniques. I am not against cloistered congregations. I am against one that hides and/or downplays their rules. Oh yes, a Legionary overseas can go 7-10 years before visiting home. But they can fly him from Rome to Mexico to give a weekend retreat and not think twice about it. It's God's will, see?
I'm not aware of other orders creating a mask that replaces the person inside.
Inocencio - the Pope's actions say it all, otherwise he would be doing a grave injustice. A conservative Pope punishing the founder of what some think is THE greatest new congregation in the Church, overflowing with money, building schools left and right, etc?

exLC,
thank you for your thought and time. If everyone were to work so fervently to end the evils in our world, we would be so much closer to the Father's Will.
"They isolate the individual, create a mask, separate from the family, ..." They do far less than other orders. While Legion novices may visit with family only once per year (if I recall correctly), certain Carthusian novices may have only one visit until they are ordained.
I recently read a woman's account of her experience entering a Carmelite cloister in the 1950s. She was allowed to receive family and even letters only during prescribed times, and after final vows, could receive non-family visitors only with a veil over her face. As I'm sure you're familiar, what family she could see was only through a grate.
Religious have traditionally been isolated because it protects their vows, and their commitment to give their entire lives and liberty to our Lord. They're less isolated today than in the past, when a religious might be sent across the ocean and never see anyone he knew before, again.
May God bring all victims of abuse at the hands of those representing the Church to peace and healing, and may they know the love of God fully in their hearts.

exLC,
It might be that everything you think of Fr. Maciel is true and it might not be.
Based on the documentation so far, the Congregation might release more information later, the statement points to the document Sacramentorum sanctitatis tutela which has to do with "The Safeguarding of the Sanctity of the Sacraments".
I understand you will disagree with me, but unless the Congregation states it found evidence that Fr. Maciel abused his accusers I cannot have moral certitude he did, especially since one of the accuser completely recanted his accusation.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

exLC,
Thank you for your personal evaulation based on your experience.
I am not trying to tell you what your personal experiences are, I am only saying that you have made it very clear how you feel about LC and I hope you will continue to respect our right, based on our experiences, to disagree that the LC is a cult and agree with the Church that it is a "worthy apostolate".
I have far, far more "moral certainty" than Neuhaus ever did. And so does the Holy Father.
Can you quote Pope Benedict XVI regarding the matter since you seem to be speaking for him?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio

Tim,
You are welcome. The practice of mixing internal and external forum is not done by any group in the Church but the Legion. I do not believe any of the rules above are benign. They isolate the individual, create a mask, separate from the family, and I have documented deceptions. Please read it carefully. I also suggest you consider reading these articles: http://www.regainnetwork.org/category.php?c=245671...
Furthermore, I judge the LC/RC a cult from my own experiences. Don't include me in your "we." The Church has made a serious mistake and I pray the Church will reform them quickly. The recent decision itself suggests a revisitation to the LC as existing in practice. After all, if only because he got away with it for so long, it suggests others were involved. Yes, key word: suggests.
The Vatican's response is that they believe he is guilty and are punishing him. Anything less than "beyond a reasonable doubt" would be a gross injustice. Maciel is guilty. I have far, far more "moral certainty" than Neuhaus ever did. And so does the Holy Father.

Thanks for the material, exLC.
Admittedly, I don't know how it would stack up against the vows of other orders, but perhaps others do.
I would think that the benign rules of any organization could be twisted and abused by individuals.
I have no clue as to whether the accusations against Fr. Maciel are true, and judging from the Vatican's response, they have decided that (based on the evidence) the accusations could be neither proved nor disproved.
The fact that he has been disciplined at all, I think, does support the idea that there is some substantial suspicion.
That said, I think we should follow the judgement of the church in not labeling the LC/RC a "cult" based on the experiences of a relative few.
There are many willing to smear the entire Catholic church because of the actions of a few pedophile priests.

[/b] For what it's worth, I consider myself to be a conservative, orthodox Catholic, which was what attracted me to the LC in the first place. I thank God that I am out and have kept my faith.

1) To the extent I may appear condescending to those who don't "hold my opinion" it is simply because I know from personal experience. I have attempted to share some of that here. If you don't believe it (or my interpretation of it) that is your business. Just don't tell me what my experience and knowledge are.
2) My statement that he IS a molester (more accurately pedophile or ephebophile) is based precisely on the Pope's public rebuke of him. I know of no other grounds for this rebuke, and I do not believe it would be made unless HE believed it. As for myself, also I believe the original accusers. I don't know what you would believe, but between them and the Pope's condemnation, I am certain "beyond a reasonable doubt." Or as Neuhaus said, I have moral certainty.
3) At this point, since you haven't really read the REGAIN site, nor "Vows of Silence" I doubt any documentation would convince you the Legion is a cult. Yes, the Church has praised it. I believe it has been done in order to prevent further scandal, and acknowledge the good that has come from it (I have not said it had not, but good can come from many evils, (including cults) and I further think that BXVI is going to reform it soon. This is just the opening shot. If it collapses by itself, he has nothing more to do, and the collapse is not "his fault" and the faithful will not be scandalized by the Vatican's failure.
4) A cult experience is difficult to define, yet when you have been through it, you know it. I know it. I hope you never experience it, especially not when it is done in the name of God and the Church.
Here is a small example of an LC deception. From the original version of their legionary facts page. You can look it up on an internet archive site.
"10) Is it true that Legionaries vow never to speak against the Legion?
Legionaries, like brothers in any family, defend each other, encourage each other and look out for each other. They try to live out Christ's teachings. "
-Notice how it raises the question of a vow, yet never answers the question and implicitly denies the existence of the vow.
-The current response, quoting Maciel, is a deception by him. "No, not secret at all." For many years, the vows were a secret. No one outside of the Legion (to my knowledge) knew of them, except presumably the approvers. Even the answer implies they are still secret, since it does not give the text for them, and there is no discussion or mention anywhere, even in the supposed "analysis," - of the tattle-tale clause - under vow I promise to report anyone who breaks it.
Another example - the "National Catholic Register" article last year claiming "Maciel Exhonerated." They took an unsigned fax from the Vatican Secretary of State (which had NO standing or knowledge of the case) stating (paraphrase) that "there is not now and it is not foreseen there will be a canonical process against Maciel" and claimed it as "Exhoneration" in their newspaper. They misinterpreted "not foreseen" as "will not be" and offered it as definitive, knowing it was from the wrong office and completely irrelevant.
Some of these are from the book "Principles and Norms" others from "Norms of Urbanity" and "Statutes of Regnum Christi"
Always look happy - from Principles and Norms "9. The face of the legionary belongs to others. Always display happiness and serenity as a manifestation of inner richness. At the other extreme, avoid all sign of depression, insecurity or timidity. Do not display a worried, sad, melancholy or disgusted face, or show an exaggerated form of happiness."
Don't discuss problems - P&N "57. Do not expose others to animated states, difficulties or problems. Reserve those things for the persons designated to deal with them. " (persons = the superiors).
Don't share with family - P&N "65. When receiving family visits, always appear happy, cordial, attentive, grateful and satisfied with the vocation that God has granted you."
570. Be shrewd when dealing with strangers. Respond with precision, moderation and discretion to questions they may ask, keeping in mind the good or evil they are capable of doing to the Legion and to each other in passing along a fact or expressing an opinion.
572. Avoid dealing with or discussing personal problems with your companions. It is better to refer these problems to those whom God has designated to help you on your road to loyalty and satisfaction.
Friendship is a tool of recruitment:
103. Recruitment must happen in stages:
From friendliness (some manuals say "kindness" or "sympathy") to friendship.
From friendship to confidence.
From confidence to commitment.
From commitment to submission (total "surrender")..
No outside contact (from constitutions):
494. No one shall visit outsiders in their homes, deal with them frequently or speak with them by telephone without justifiable reasons or for apostolic purposes and only with special or regular permission from the center’s director.
More minimization of contact:
505.1. No one is permitted to attend banquets without the express permission of the Territorial Director. This permission shall be granted only for very serious cause, in extraordinary cases and only to mature members.
2. No one may eat with outsiders outside of the center without the express permission of the center’s director.
3. The center’s Director may grant permission to eat with families for reasons of friendship or for apostolic work with them, though generally such permission is not granted to the same person or family more than once a year.
Importance of MM for the group: (1st Gen chapter)
184. 1 The writings and conferences of Nuestro Padre should constitute, along with the Gospel of Christ, the principal source of inspiration for spiritual exercises, triduums, retreats, short courses, seminars, conferences, study circles, discussions, articles and publications.
Sibling Wedding - 1 day IF you are a priest and in that country:
305.9 Only priests who reside in the same country as their siblings will be able to attend their religious wedding ceremonies and must abstain from participating in the wedding banquets, buffets or other social events. The duration of these visits must not exceed one day.
Identify with founder:
438. This integration means identifying with the Founder, with his spirit, his mind, his mission, his life.
440. Since for every legionary of Christ the Constitutions, the Rules, the norms and traditions are the faithful expression of the Will of God, and since the doctrine of the Founder is light for his footsteps, bread for his life, salt for flavoring for his apostolic and sanctifying work, it is necessary to augment the founding conscience through supernatural integration, both affective and effective, and the faithful acceptance of the directives, norms, works and attitudes of the Founder without discussing them or obstructing them, applying them with faith and operating in accordance with them (Cfr. nn. 91, 93).
Do whatever I tell you:
156. I would like to ask all of you to faithfully abide by all that I indicate to or ask of you, whether spoken or written, as Founder. I am very aware of my human limitations, but I am also aware that God has chosen me, as His humble instrument, in order to initiate and carry out this His work.
Schools' #1 Purpose: Recruit (2nd Gen Chapter)
343.That is why I am sorry to see that our schools and universities do not fulfill their primary goal: the expansion of the Regnum Christi, and especially the recruitment of leaders and vocations to the Legion and to the Consecrated Life of the Movement [Regnum Christi].
344. Allow me to take advantage of this exceptional opportunity the General Chapter has offered me to once again insist on this: the meaning and goals of our schools - like all apostolic work of the legion and the Movement - must not be worn down by operating solely as teaching facilities. They will not accomplish their true goal in God’s plan for us if they do not bring a large number of students, parents, family members of students and teachers into Regnum Christi.
I have said it many times: for us these schools serve primarily as an open means of recruitment and of the recruitment of leaders.
The above are a small sampling of what exists. While it is possible to give them a benign interpretation, in practice - they are anything but. There are many devout saintly men in LC who are very sincere, but the program slowly erodes their conscience, and the most absolutely obedient, the most like Maciel (in a negative sense) are promoted up. The others serve to foster the illusion of a healthy group. Everything, every person in the LC/RC serves as a cog in the machine, and have value proportionate to their offering of money, influence, vocational prospects. The goal is to form "true believers" in the group. That's my personal evaluation, based on my experience and that of former members. God bless you!

"Frankly, I am surprised that after learning that MM really IS a child molester..."
The evidence presented here and on the sites Jimmy linked to don't support the conclusion that MM is a child molester. He may be(or, he may not be), but, given the available evidence, the above quote is an assumption, not a conclusion.

exLC,
While these replies are well intentioned, they are nevertheless very condescending and contrary to my experience and reflect your own ignorance.
And how are you not being condescending towards anyone who doesn't hold your opinion of the LC?
I'm very proud of the fact that I "figured it out" and left when I did.
Then good for you.
At your suggestion I have spent some time on the regain website and it is a lot of conjecture and hearsay. Just like your statement that MM IS a child molester. Again, no documentation other than you have said it and we must believe it based on your self-proclaimed expertise regarding the matter.
Again, I trust Pope Benedict XVI to do the right thing even if I do not know all the facts, do you?
I very much understand you have declared LC a cult, but the Church has called it a "worthy apostolate" Please understand if I accept the Church's opinion over yours.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

I know an ex Legionary who is a diocesan priest who attends parish council meetings where the members and his pastor all talk trash about the Legion, assuming that any idea this priest has which seems vaguely traditional or conservative stems from his training in the Legion. So, I find it hard to believe that any disgruntled "exLC" has to look too hard before finding a forum in which he can speak openly and freely, with support from others, about his misgivings with the Legion. Given the views that a disgruntled "exLC" may express about the Legion among fellow diocesan priests - who may have liberal bents, one could see how this may even help advance his priestly career.
This and other reasons given as to why we don't "hear more stories" seem to be a bit of a stretch.

While these replies are well intentioned, they are nevertheless very condescending and contrary to my experience and reflect your own ignorance. The vow is not merely "be charitable and speak nicely," -- you literally vow to God not to say anything critical or negative about a superior to anyone ever (but the person and/or their superior), and to inform on anyone else who does. Other orders don't mix the internal and external forums the way the Legion does, nor do any of dozens of things the Legion does. It's not a charism, it's an abuse. And it goes beyond that - it is a "cult" - just as much as the moonies. It just has a Catholic label on it.
It's blindly obvious to a former cult member why you don't "hear more stories" -- it's precisely because it is a cult. Your ability to think critically (in both senses) is removed after time. Since "all this is from God and approved by the Church" you do not dare to criticize it. Former members spend years trying to recover and rebuild their lives (their LC education is worthless) and want to forget it. To the extent that one has "bought into" the LC argument, yes, some former members still remain "true believers." Others fear retribution, particularly former priests who are attempting to be accepted by a diocese and develop their new priestly career.
I'm very proud of the fact that I "figured it out" and left when I did. I regret the loss of time to them. Had they been more open and honest, I would not have joined in the first place. Nevertheless I also resent the implied criticism or label of "disgruntled former member." I am very happy that I have managed to keep my Catholic Faith, although it has been seriously harmed. I am greatly angered that many good, innocent men lose theirs when they leave.
Frankly, I am surprised that after learning MM really IS a child molester that so many of you are nevertheless skeptical about my claim that he has built a cult. Gee... a founder of an order who looked so holy is a pedophile who abused some of the members and got away with it for years... nah, his group couldn't be a cult.

exLC-
The problems you outline seem to be very similar to the problems that many people have with other Catholic religious orders.
Many outsiders see quite common rules as mind control meant to crush individuality. Not everyone is cut out for life in a religious order.
I am not saying that you did not have a bad experience, but what you have outlined so far does not convince me that LC/RC is deserving of cult status.

exLC,
It's a basic tenet of charity and humility (which the Legionaries even make vows toward) not to talk negatively about others. Given the high esteem in which they hold the priesthood, it makes sense for there to be a common understanding among them not to talk negatively or judgmentally about others, especially the priests who would be relating and representing the Legionaries' policies. If you have a bunch of intellectually advanced young men running around one of the first things which could easily endanger their spiritual life - especially their humility - would be to go around talking to others about the perceived thoughts or actions of others - flat out immoral behavior notwithstanding - or how they see certain policies of the Legion. One could easily see how this type of person could soon get really full of himself given the position he'd be putting himself in to first of all judge what he sees as wrong and then to continually justify feeling the way he does with himself or others.
I know that Legionary seminarians are spiritually directed to follow the Legion's policies out of their own free will and that if they ever have persistent problems about following these sorts of things, then they would be very well told (and rightly so, if you think about it) that they are not called to be Legionaries. For someone who is so full of himself that he thinks he knows better than the Legion to begin with to then be told he's not called to be a Legionary from some spiritual director ("how DARE he try to tell me I'm not called to be?!") it may not be surprising that this person would then go run home crying about how all these mean men wanted him to do all the things they told him to and when he wouldn't that they said he couldn't play anymore.
Anyone who knows the Legionaries would agree they have a well-defined and militant charism. If one is called to be a Legionary, he would be called therefore to emulate such a charism. Conformism is one thing, but mere conformity to such a charism is not enough especially if it is supposed to last for so long a formation process as they undergo, let alone represent Christ to others through such a charism. The decision to incorporate this charism into one's life must come from one's free will - "must come from themselves". Given the strict nature of many elements of the Legionaries' charism, it can be seen how this would not be so easy for someone who already thinks that he knows better.
From what I understand, over half the young men who enter the Legionary seminaries for whatever reason don't make it all the way through. It seems odd we don't hear more stories about mind and behavior control from most of these others who have left. It doesn't seem so odd though that you may have a few spitefully going and making websites with the design to malign.

OK, please let me know, someone, anyone? Is there a statement by the NC Register? IT was referenced above but I can't find anything.
THANKS,
Nicole