Totally Absolutely 100% Crazy

by Jimmy Akin on May 30, 2006

in Liturgy

A reader writes:

Would you please comment on the following article in yesterday’s LA Times?

GET THE STORY.

The story in question is about a parish in the Diocese of Orange where the new priest has–among other things–forbidden people to kneel following the Agnus Dei, and a huge controversy has errupted.

IT’S A STORY THAT I’VE COMMENTED ON BEFORE.

But I’ve only commented on certain aspects of it, and the L.A. Times piece gives me the confirmation I need to go further into the issue.

First, though, I’d mention that there are notable flaws in the L.A. Times piece. They don’t get their history of recent liturgical law right, there is a bizarro attempt to link the kneeling issue to The Da Vinci Code (I’m not making that up), and they notably fail to document other aspects of the story that are important, such as the fact that the parishioners weren’t just disinvited from attending Mass because they insisted on kneeling after the Agnus Dei. They are also accused of handing out literature making false allegations against the diocese and the priest, which is a much more serious and canonically actionable offense than refusing to stand at the Agnus Dei. See my prior commentary for more info on this.

They also talk to an expert at the Georgetown liturgy center who is off in liturgical la-la land, but I can’t hold the stupid things he says against the Times. (At least not in a direct way.)

What I find particularly interesting here is a particular assertion that was made by the priest of the parish (he apparently hasn’t been appointed its pastor, just its administrator) in a bulletin. I had seen this statement reported before in material from the distressed parishioners, but I didn’t have confirmation of it. Now the L.A. Times confirms it:

Kneeling "is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin," Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary’s by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin. The Diocese of Orange backs Tran’s anti-kneeling edict.

Actually, the L.A. Times again has it slightly wrong. You’ll notice that the word "kneeling" isn’t included in the quotation. Here’s what Fr. Tran actually said in context:

As I said before, Liturgy is the "public worship" of the Church whose authority belongs only to Rome, the National Conference of the Catholic Bishops and the local Bishop, and not a private worship or business which belongs to any person(s) or group that can take it into their own hands by intentionally setting their own norms, disregarding the permission from the local Bishop or despising the authority of the local Bishop, the National Conference of one’s country. That is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin, separating oneself from the Church.

The highlighted part is the apparent antecedent for "that," which is what Fr. Tran says is mortally sinful.

And there’s an element of truth in what he says. There are things that one can do in violation of the Church’s norms that would be mortally sinful–for example, if one decided that something other than wheat bread is to be used for confecting the host. That kind of violation of the Church’s norms would be mortally sinful if done with adequate knowledge and intent.

But not all violations of the Church’s norms are created equal. This is a fact that is expressly recognized in the instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum, which recognizes at least three different levels of gravity in liturgical offenses, one of which is clearly non-grave matter.

This means that it is pastorally irresponsible in the extreme to wave the threat of mortal sin in parishioners’ faces unless an actually grave offense is in question, and that does not appear to be the case here. Fr. Tran goes on–immediately after the paragraph quoted above–to state:

The reason for this is that all the current liturgical norms of the Diocese and of the U.S. are officially recognized and allowed by Rome. Furthermore, Fr. Johnson was allowed only to have the Tridentine Mass here at St. Mary’s with its own norms: communion by tongue, with one species, no sign of peace, kneeling after "Agnus Det’l Lamb of God… that some parishioners here name that "traditions" of St. Mary’s. Besides, Fr. Johnson allowed other liturgical practice/norms belonging to the Tridentine Mass to be applied to other Masses of Vatican II, including the Novus Ordo Mass: that is not correct. For it was out of line with the current liturgical norms of the Diocese. These have to be changed. Fr. Sy and I were appointed by the Bishop, working together with the Bishop to re-establish the liturgical norms at St. Mary’s to be in line with the current liturgical norms of the Church in America and of the Diocese (allowed by Rome). And this binds all with total obedience.

As one family, all of us have the responsibility to correct our disobedient brothers and sisters. If they do not listen, that is their serious problem!

Now, it is apparent that Fr. Tran is not the clearest writer in the world. It is also clear that he is not the most pastoral priest in the world. In fact, he comes across as a Grade-A Jerk in this text (particularly toward the end), although allowance must be made for the previous history of the situation, which may have caused tempers to flare on both sides.

Still, it seems that the nut of the issue is that Fr. Tran is trying to bring the parish into line with the Diocese of Orange’s liturgical norms for the current rite of Mass after his predecessor allowed practices from the Tridentine Mass to be applied to the current rite of Mass. What these are, Fr. Tran isn’t clear on, but the most likely friction points are the ones he names as aspects of the Tridentine rite of Mass: Communion on the tongue, Communion under one species, not having an individual exchange of peace, and kneeling after the Agnus Dei.

Communion on the tongue is a protected right of the faithful, so he can’t (validly) accuse parishioners of being disobedient to liturgical law if they want to receive on the tongue. Neither is there any requirement for people to receive under both species if both are being offered to the faithful, so there’s no grounds for valid charges of disobedience there, either. If he’s calling for an individual exchange of the sign of peace and parishioners are utterly refusing to do it (e.g., not even nodding and smiling at those around them) then he’d have some grounds for criticism, but that doesn’t seem to be the big issue here. The L.A. Times–and those on the other side of the issue–seem to understand kneeling after the Agnus Dei to be what’s causing all the ruckus.

So (in the absence of further evidence) let’s go with that: Fr. Tran seems to be threatening people who are kneeling after the Lamb of God with mortal sin. That’s certainly what they’re understanding him to be doing, and–despite the lack of precision with which he writes–he’s definitely waving charges of mortal sin in their faces over lack of compliance with the norms of the diocese, and kneeling seems to be what is at issue.

If that is what he’s doing then he is totally, absolutely, 100% crazy . . . speaking from the point of view of liturgical law.

The Church simply has not invested the question of the posture of the laity with the gravity needed to result in mortal sin. Indeed, Rome has shown significant sympathy and indulgence toward those who wish to kneel at traditional moments.

Here’s a nice test case: Kneeling for Communion. The current norms for the United States establish a posture of standing to receive Communion and–because of the gravity of the moment itself (you’re receiving God Incarnate in Holy Communion) and because of the public nature of the moment (you’re up in front of everybody where you can be easily seen)–kneeling at this moment would be more disruptive by way of example to others than at any other moment in the Mass. So if any moment of kneeling praeter legem would be a grave offense, this one would.

So what does liturgical law say regarding people who insist on kneeling for Communion?

Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm [GIRM (2002, U.S. ed.) 160].

Now, canon law requires ministers of the Eucharist to deny Communion to anyone who is "obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin" (can. 915), so if a person insisted on kneeling in spite of admonitions then you’d have to deny him Holy Communion if this were a grave sin (since it’s obviously manifest). Since the text says that Communicants are not to be denied Holy Communion, the only conclusion is that kneeling for Communion is not a grave sin and thus not capable of being a mortal sin.

And if kneeling for Communion is not a mortal sin then–a fortiori–kneeling after the Agnus Dei is not a mortal sin.

The claim that it would be is just crazy and shows a profound lack of awareness of the mechanics of liturgical law and the way Rome handles these things.

Indeed, the actions of Posture Nazis (of liberal or conservative bent–and there are conservative Posture Nazis) are simply not consonant with the attitude Rome takes toward the regulation of posture at Mass. That attitude is expressed in a recent Responsum issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments regarding kneeling after Communion:

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?

Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [and for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43 [i.e., the main section dealing with posture], is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free [June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L); printed in BCL Newsletter, July 2003].

So whether one would insist that it is mortally sinful to kneel or not to kneel at particular points in Mass, one would be misreading liturgical law. The Church simply has not invested the regulation of posture with grave matter and it intends only to establish "a certain uniformity" that has "broad limits" and it does not intend to "regulate posture rigidly."

This makes troubling a reported comment by a diocesan spokesman. According to the L.A. Times:

Father Joe Fenton, spokesman for the Diocese of Orange, said the diocese supports Tran’s view that disobeying the anti-kneeling edict is a mortal sin. "That’s Father Tran’s interpretation, and he’s the pastor," he said. "We stand behind Father Tran."

You’ll note that once again the L.A. Times has not gotten the word "kneeling" into the quote, so we’re not entirely sure what Fr. Fenton said (assuming he was even quoted accurately). Given the number of other sloppy, problematic points in the article, I can’t be sure if he was quoted accurately or if the question he was responding to involved the issue the Times represents or, if he was and if it did, whether he was speaking after mature deliberation or just reflexively trying to support a diocesan priest in the face of criticism.

But I can tell you this: If this matter goes up to Rome the mortal sin interpretation of the parishioners’ actions will not be sustained.

Instead, we’re likely to get back something that sounds very much like the Responsum on the question of whether you can kneel after Communion.

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"They also talk [about someone]...who is off in liturgical la-la land"

Tod Brown, roger mahoney and a host of other clerics ARE in direct defiance of the mandates coming from the Vatican
Why should they CARE about what the Vatican has to say?
Don't they have the right to DEFY the Vatican as RAD TRADS do?

Wow, what insight! "Vatican II bad! JP II bad! Paul VI bad!" Gee, we've never heard *that* before!

chester or anyone else presuming to defend the actions of presbyter Tran and other stooges of Tod Brown & Conrad mahoney have their heads up their preverbial "mount of sand". Tod Brown, roger mahoney and a host of other clerics ARE in direct defiance of the mandates coming from the Vatican in reference to the respect and awe that needs to be reinstilled in Catholic Sacred Mass. The damage done by Vatican 2 JP2 and especially Paul 6 in the protestantized mass foisted on the Catholic world are coming to a screeching ass halt. The leftovers from the 60's do ur own thing like mahoney brown, lustiger, daneel, O'Brien, weakland and that gang referred to as the US Catholic conference of bishops is begging to be in the least laizised and at most excommunicated as apostates----Pacem

Sorry- Mozel Tov not Movel Tov--Good Luck/Shalom

Msgr/Archbishop Annadale Bugnini was one of the premier Vatican 2 periti on revising the liturgy. Bugnini was instrumental and also the inventor of the non-organically produced Novus Ordo Missae of Paul 6. Bugnini was assisted by amoung others, a coterie of 6 heretical protestant clerics to "reform" the Catholic Mass with an eye to making it more pleasing to the protestant heresy and schism rooted in the 16th century C.E. Bugnini had horrendous influence and authority in the reigh of Paul 6 and his demise as a suspected freemason was sudden. It was as sudden as his replacement in his exaulted vatican position to his reasignment to an obscure posting in the land of infidels, Iran. That is Annabale bugnini the Freemason. As for the diocese of Orange, California and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles with the clerics Tod Brown & Roger Mahoney, we can only hope the Holy Father sends them to an SSPX seminary for priestly formation. The return of the Classic Liturgy can't come soon enough---Movel Tov---John

Did the visionary say you should violate Rule 3?

Hi. This is an excerpt from the interview of Maria Simma by Nicky Eltz. Maria Simma was a Catholic german visionary of the poor souls in purgatory. Please pay very close attention:
RULE 3 VIOLATION.

Addendum
God knows, although they are new order prelates, we really need prelates like Cardinal George of Chicago, Archbishop Burke of St. Louis, Bishop Finn of Kansas City Mo, and the Bishop of Wyoming here on the west coast of the United States to clean up the generations of the cleric cult of homosexual priests,liturgical experimentation, the support of prelate like mahoney of rainbow sash groups,vestal virgin dance masses dummy-down childrens masses, dorito massses etc etc etc etc etc. It is my sincere wish that the Vatican send Mahoney, Brown, Lavada, Lustiger, Kasper and other neo-apostate experimenter-prelates to a SSPX seminary for retraining and re-ordination

John, who is "Bugnini the Freemason"?

I live in Orange County ,California a convert to Catholicism of the Latin? rite and have not been to the messes referred to as mass, (correction I went to a mass in Brea, Calif and after a watching the presbyter (priest) sitting on his ass while "eucharistic ministers" dressed for a picnic were running around flip floppin the chalice with the previously consecrated wine, I got the hell outta there)so i have not attended mass in either Orange or L.A. counties in years. If I'm going to hell I have a feeling I'll have a lot of company with the Ayatollah Mahoney & his boot-lickin buddy the Mullah of orange county Tod Brown and more than a few Novus ordo clerics. Guess it's a matter of time before these old Vatican 2 prelates (liturgical-leftists) with a stick up their ass) die off and the Mass of all Ages returnes to the Universal church. Betcha Paul 6 & Bugnini the freemason are laughin in their graves. As for me the so-called novus ordo missae is very close to the heretical liturgy of the anglican church that I left. One is almost tempted to the theology of the mainstream Sedevacantists, (but alas I do not believe the last 5 popes are illegit,) even if someone would explain to me WHY JP2 kissed the blasphamous Koran, instigated the mess at Assisi allowed the mark of the infidel hindu diety shiva on his forehead etc. etc. & yet the only persecuted people in his reign as pontiff were Orthodox Roman (Latin Catholic).Need these anomaly's answered. Oh ya whwas is Quo Primum and the sylibus of errors the Cathechismof the Council of Trent conveniently Never mentioned by anyone in the novus ordo, neither the Pope or propaganda outlets like EWTN????????????

I find it very strange that all or almost all of us who recommended kneeling have been accused of being priests. Very strange indeed. Tells you something about the state of the Church, I guess, though I'm not sure what.

Dear Maria, or John Chrysostom,
Why do you assume I am a priest? I have never said I was a priest. And I am not.
Fr. Tran is your local pastoral authority, placed over you by your Bishop, Tod Brown.
Submit to Fr. Tran and Bishop Brown in matters of the liturgy. That will demonstrate your love and charity and spirituality.
Without your bishop (your actual bishop Tod Brown, appointed by the Pope), and your local pastoral authority (Fr. Tran, appointed by your Bishop), you would have no Mass, no sacraments, no Church.
I never made any comments about what Fr. John did or did not say about other people or priests.
But his actions, the results of his work, speak very loudly.
You only have two choices: submit to the legitimate authority placed over you, or find another place.

Father Tran needs to apologize to the elderly couple who knocked on the Sacristy door after reading the bulletin about mortal sin. They point blank asked Father Tran, "Are we in mortal sin if we kneel down?" Father Tran said if you kneel down accidently you are not in mortal sin, but if you kneel down on purpose, it is a mortal sin." The elderly couple said, "Of course were kneeling down on purpose, we've done this our entire lives, we are Adoring God!" Father Tran said "Then yes you are in mortal sin!" I wonder if all of the liberal priests with their poor formation above would want that cruelty for their elderly parents! Be careful cruel priests!
If you answer yes, you just might get your wish!
Go ahead and criticize Father Johnson, Father. I never heard Father Johnson say one unkind word about any person. I never once with all of the disageement that Father Johnson must have felt with the dumbing down of Catholicism, heard him speak ill of another priest. If anyone did in his presence, he gently and firmly let them know it wasn't allowed. He understood the dignity of the Priesthood. He acted like a real priest. He would have never wasted time blogging about another priest. Today you hear so many horror stories of people who are dying and the family cannot find a priest Their not available. Father Johnson was available, I know that for sure. Father Zhou your wisdom is not old. It is still young and immature for a priest. I witnessed Father Daniel Johnson's compassion for fallen away Catholics, people suffering horribly from Aids, people who felt abandoned, as well as his generosity towards the poor. No, young Zhou it is your spirituality that is suffering from deformation. Go make a good confession for your lack of charity and tremble with fear, because charity covers a multitude of sins, and in that virtue, your own words diagnose you as lacking!

here's the link: All That Perceptions Stuff — Ex-priest Rod Stephens Still Works in Orange Diocese, Los Angeles Lay Catholic Mission, July/August 2004

Dear Susan,
You say were "forced" to "sign a secret oath". And you say "read the article."
I would be very interested in reading the article if I could find it on the web. Do you have a URL?
I don't understand the part about you and your husband being forced to sign an oath. How were you forced? Did someone threaten you?
Please be more specific.
And, also, what does all this have to do with kneeling in church?
Please help us to understand. Thank you.

I agree with Michelle! I will answer that question this way. Your house is burning down, your children are inside . What should you do? hmmmm... Should wait for the fire Department to arrive who are an hour away from your home or should you get the heck in there and Save! your children! My husband and I met with Bishop Tod in person twice and and the third time with his priest cannon lawyer resulting in forceing us to sign a secret oath.( For more info on what we went through -READ LOS ANGELES LAY CCATHOLIC MISSION article 2002 July issue "All that Perception Stuff" by Robert Krumpel") Both my husband and I know exactly what Bishop Browns agenda is , regarding the Mass because my husbands cousin a priest who was head of liturgy for the Orange diocese under Bishop Brown is "liberal as you get". We aren't fooled by Bishop Browns statements regarding kneeling. The root of the problem layfaithful Catholics, IS ACTIVE HOMOSEXUAL PRIESTS IN THE DIOCESE OF ORANGE!!!

Here's an interesting take on the situation in Orange County: Straight up, no chaser... and no bull!

Dear Jared,
I really have no idea what you are talking about.
What is my "theory of silent obedience"?
How do I undermine Fr. Johnson's "authority as a priest" (and maybe you could explain what you mean by "authority as a preist"?)

By the way, Zhou. Which of their concerns are illegitimate i.e. indicative of their mal-formed beliefs? Seems to me all of their concerns are backed by official Magisterial teaching.

That last was me, Marion (Mael Muire)

Zhou: Ah, but according to your theory of silent obedience (or, admittedly, quite possibly my interpretation thereof), you shouldn't speak out against Fr. Johnson. According to said theory, you should (if it were possible) fall down on your face before *him* and beg *his* forgiveness for undermining his authority as a priest.

Dear Jared,
I guess you didn't get the Open Letter from these folks to their bishop.
(Ref: http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/060420)
When any semi-isolated parish community goes absolutely berzerk and makes this kind of lengthy, ranting public display about how they are so unhappy about so many things in the diocese, well, I'd say they are asking for their own obliteration.
I'm not dismissing their concerns.
But their concerns are not the problem.
Their deformation in the faith is the problem, and their long list of concerns are just symptoms.
You just don't do this sort of public ranting about everything you, as a parish community, don't like about your bishop for the last eight years, since his arrival.
I'm not at all bitter.
I'm more sad for these people who are painted into a very small corner of overzealous religiousity.
I don't blame them, but Fr. Johnson, for this entire mess. They are his fruit.

"Joseph D: Ya ain't helpin' matters here."
Reminds me of what Jed Clampett once said to Jethro;
"Stop helpin' me, boy..."

Zhou: The following is not meant to sound like a "So's yer old man!" comeback but it may end up seeming that way.
I was just thinking about how angry ("bitter" might be the word) you have sounded with your references to obliteration and your dismissing of the concerns of these people. True, some of them come off sounding disobedient, but the root of their concerns (and the root of Mr. Akin's initial post) are all valid concerns.
Secondly, from an outsider's perspective, if anything, it seems as though the OC diocese is in de facto schism from Rome. NOT because of the kneeling issue (as I've said, the bishop has a right to make standing the norm and the people have a right to kneel if conscience compels) but with regard to its teachings on faith and morals.
Joseph D: Ya ain't helpin' matters here.

Dear Jared,
The last priest I apologized to was the one who presided at Mass last Sunday, because I was confused by his very slow reading of the Preface of the Ascension, and started to intone the Sanctus too early. That apology, for a liturgical error, took place Sunday afteroon.
He is in my actual community. I made an actual mistake. I apologized.
I have no contact with Fr. Johnson but to read the words of those he (de-)formed, and those who both praise and criticize him. Ample words from his "fruit" right here in these comments.
Based on these words, and those written about his priestly work since 1975, I consider him to be a bitter man who is a danger to those he influences. A danger because he has, in his tiny little parish (it really is geographically tiny, and a little downtown "mission" from Ss. Simon & Jude), populated with people from all over Los Angeles and Orange Counties, he has created what is almost a "schism in place," a little, angry community which is largely isolated and hostile to the neighboring parishes, diocese, their pastor (or administrator) and their bishop.
I can see that this is a bad thing that this man has done with his priestly ministry. It is going to make a mess of a lot of people's lives because they only have two ways forward:
(1) forget about a lot of what they learned was "the Faith" from Fr. Johnson (their deformation), and join the rest of the Church in their Diocese as we all move forward together, or
(2) go elsewhere, either into some traditionalist schism organization, or drop out of faith life altogether.
Fr. Johnson got them all running right into a brick wall.
What do you want me to apologize to him about?

I would rather be a "protestant" (whatever that means) than a slave to corrupt authority.
Finally you admit what has been obvious.
"and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Matt. 18:17
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

I knew this protestant mindset was coming down the pike.
Inocencio, I would rather be a "protestant" (whatever that means) than a slave to corrupt authority. God didn't create us to be slaves; He created us in His free image to love and worship Him, not corrupt, tyrannical bastards who misuse their authority to refashion the faith as they see fit and place guilt trips on anybody who has the courage to challenge them!.

Zhou: You didn't answer the question. Would you apologize to Fr. Johnson?

Jared,
Do you know the Catholic term, "formation", such as in "Adult Faith Formation" ?
Formation done badly results in deformation.
This is a standard jargon in the world of catechetics and religious education (or "faith formation").
For example:
---
There can be no doubt that the formulators of the program were well-intentioned and highly-motivated by love of children, and impelled by a desire to make religion accessible to them. However, it is a simple, tragic fact that a generation of young Catholics has been deformed by this pleasant, humanistic catechesis.
---
(Source: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion...)
---
Students were told to see Christ in each other, rather than "in that bread box on the altar." No more would their consciences be "deformed into scrupulosity" by a "rigid personal morality focused on sin."
---
(Source: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=20...)
---
Consequently, the Catholic students were often the most difficult to educate. They've been misled and misinformed by poor Catholic catechetical programs in their parishes and schools. They've received little substantive instruction from the pulpit or in their religion classes. The situation would not be quite so tragic, he says, "if it were not for the fact that often those who have been deformed come prepared to insist on their own vision of Christianity rather than to learn and adhere to the teachings of Christ and His Church."
---
(Source: http://catholiccitizens.org/platform/platformview....)
You might want to learn the language.

I think this discussion is finaly headed in the right direction: obedience.
The relecton on obedience Old Zhou provided is extremely beautiful, while the rebellious attitude expressed by many here is extremely ugly.
We all need to grow in smallness. I recently heard this story from a holy (he would laugh at that) Franciscan about St. Therese of Lisieux.
St. Therese knew that a certain loved to answer the door of the convent on the rair occasion that someone was came to it. Once, when St. Therese was washing the floor with this sister near the door the bell rang. St. Therese was nearer the door I think and in any case got up very slowly so that the other nun could have the chance of getting to the door first.
The superior (or abbess or whatever) observed the incident and later rebuked St. Therese for being so lazy when she should have rushed to open the door.
Therese just answered, "I'm sorry."
That is not a direct parallel to this situation, but it is a lesson in humility and holyness.
This bishop and this priest may be the greatest sinners in the world. Their instructions may be misguided and unwise. Yet they are the legitimate superiors of these parishioners.
If they ordered the parishioners to do something outrightly rebellious against the Pope, they have a responsibility not to follow those instrucions. Just like if a Novice Master told his novices to disobey their abbot.
If they, or if some wicked Pope, ordered them to sin mortally, they would have a responsibility to not follow those instrucions. Just like if the abbot told his monks to kill innocent people or something.
We do not have either case here. We have a bishop and a priest telling people to stand when they would rather kneel. They are entirely within their rights to do so. They have made the mistake of calling disobedience to that a mortal sin, but they have now taken that back. It was not terribly relevent in any case though. The Vatican, though not the Pope specifically, has suggested that kneeling excessively is ok in some cases, but it is far from a clear and definitive instruction from a higher authority to kneel.
Over all, I think the best thing for these parisioners to do is to stand, and pray all the for fervently for their standing. As someone has suggested, prostrate yourself in front of the priest, and if the occasion arises the bishop, and beg for forgiveness and a priestly blessing. Kiss his hands that bring you Christ. Then go home and pray for his conversion.

Michelle: I'm with you in spirit but I think what Marion is saying is that, if you want to be effective, you need to play it cool. If you want to win this, you need to be calm.

Old Zhou: I wonder if you would prostrate yourself before the priest and laity that you libeled when you wrote: "In his bitter exile, he prepared his revenge on the Diocese by forming a group of deformed Catholic who think they are right, they know the Truth and Tradition, and they can rebel agains (sic) their Bishop and his delegates."
If I recall correctly, English is your second language so maybe you don't realise what a huge insult it is to call someone "deformed." It's akin to saying, "These guys are a bunch of retards!"
As I said earlier, I'm not an OC resident. And I'd never ask that you prostrate yourself but I do think you owe them an apology for this offensive, uncharitable statement.

Dear marionMael , Suck it up you say! Well many Catholics have been sucking it up for years now! They have suck it up so much ,their brains have fallen out! When are the "good" layfaithful who say be "obedient" to the bishops who force people not to kneel going to put their brains back and get in the battle for The Church in the United States. What a bunch of whimps we have become. The Truth of the matter is we are afraid we might lose friendships with fellow parishoners, we might lose relationships with family members, we might be kicked off parish council or not allowed to be an usher, my child may be ostrasized or kicked out of ccd or catholic school oh yeah!, this one I won't be able to help out at Bingo on friday nights! Yes all these things mentioned above could and do happen to people who take a stand against the destruction of the Catholic Faith in the Church. We must be willing to choose Jesus Christ over all people and things. Oh yes , and some well intentioned priests who are afraid to speak up because the Bishop where he is in residence will send him to some pshco center. Yes I don't blame the priests in this case. But the longer they keep sucking it up! their salt will disappear. It is us layfaithful Catholics who need to rise up and say we have had enough. We need to demand for sound teachings and proper liturgical practices. That is our God given right!
If we don' do it it is our fault for the mess, for the lost of faith. People are very concerned of what non catholics are saying about The Catholic Church,and we should be, to some extent. We first need to take care of buisness the serious problems in the Church and the "kneeling situation" a serious one, symptom of the problem. I am not going to suck it up anymore! All done and said in Love and Truth!

no Catholic should ever prostrate himself before a priest whose moral compass is so broken -- or who is such a toady for an episcopal tyrant
In case anyone was wondering. this thinking is why I posted my comments and quotes. I knew this protestant mindset was coming down the pike.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Bishop Brown is demanding obedience, under pain of mortal sin, over kneeling. That contradicts Rome
Have you read Jimmy's latest
post?
I am not dodging the question I gave you my answer even if you don't like it.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Dear John,
I totally embrace and applaud and share your goals of a more reverent and authentic liturgy.
I have been to Orange and I didn't care for the cantor up on the altar wearing a headset as if she was trying to like Britney Spears or J Lo. There was a lot to object to.
(By the way, liturgical revisionists will argue that female cantors with pop-star headsets were present from the days of the early Church, and were only supressed by the evil male hierarchy in the post-Constantine era.)
You are totally right to object to the things you object to. I am with you, and don't blame you one bit.
I don't want to tell you what to do, because I don't pretend to have the answers. But one thing that has been a huge mistake has been going to war over this.
The Church is a family. You cannot have wars in families. Everybody loses. You can't do it.
This has become like a huge messy ugly custody battle in a divorce. That's what it looks like from the outside. Even though I agree with your points, and you're right. But you're not right to go to war. Sometimes you have to suck things up for the sake of the family.
You don't give up on getting what you want. It may look like giving up, but it's really just being patient and doing things in a smart way.

Old Zhou, no Catholic should ever prostrate himself before a priest whose moral compass is so broken -- or who is such a toady for an episcopal tyrant -- that he would equate the desire to kneel before the Eucharist -- a legitimate right under canon law -- with "mortal sin" solely for the sake of enforcing a legalistic, narrow interpretation of regulations.
The issue isn't standing or kneeling as such. The issue is whether the faithful will continue to allow themselves to be manipulated by petty tyrants hiding under episcopal authority.
Nowhere on this thread has anybody even brought up the point that Brown's and Tran's actions contradict the spirit (if not the letter) of Christ's command to His disciples in John 14, where He tells them that those who hold authority in His name must focus on service and not "lord it over" others as secular authorities do.
That last fact causes me to wonder whether Catholics really know about their faith....

John,
I would suggest that
instead of kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament,
you try prostrating yourself before Fr. Tran,
and ask for his forgiveness (especially for the fliers and public hysterics).
And stay there with your face on the ground at his feet
until he feels you have made an adequate gesture of penance.
Then ask for his blessing,
promise obedience to and cooperation with your pastor,
and move forward together,
in a spirit of love and mutual respect.
The current approach is not going to accomplish your goals in regard to a more "holy" liturgy.

Personally, If going elsewhere is truly impossible, I would attend Mass, I would stand, and I would mourn inwardly. I would go home and pray, fast and do penance for that priest and that bishop, and I would petition God to change their minds and convert their hearts.
It does seem that some of the parishoners don't want to go elsewhere, not because there is NO place to go it may be that there is no IDEAL place to go), but because they hate to see this priest "get away with it". They don't want him to change what they see as "their" parish.
I am in prayer for all of you.

Old Zhou,
Which priest from Sts. Simon & Jude parish are you?
Just to be clear:
We have gone to Fr. Tran privately, many times. He cut off discussion long ago (before any fliers were ever handed out). The bishop and diocesan officials also refused to meet with us (by message through Fr. Tran) long before any fliers were handed out.

Inocencio,
You are dodging the question.
Here is the right answer, and I think you would have to agree: If Bishop Brown contradicts Rome, my obedience (on that matter) must be to Rome.
Bishop Brown is demanding obedience, under pain of mortal sin, over kneeling. That contradicts Rome.
He does have the right to set kneeling as the norm. That is not in dispute, and people who obey him are not doing anything wrong.
However, the people who choose to kneel have a right to do so that is guaranteed by Rome. If Rome guarantees kneeling as a right, then the kneelers can't be called disobedient.

Tim J,
I agree with you to a point. A couple things, though:
If you read the Open Letter to Tod Brown, Bishop of Orange, you will see that we have already lost hundreds of parishioners over all the changes Bishop Brown has made and he has been happy to see them go. To be honest, St. Mary's by the Sea was the last traditional little parish within at least 100 mile radius. Its reputation for tradition was actually known throughout the state. Bishop Brown couldn't do much until Fr. Johnson retired because he had canonical rights as a pastor. Now that he ha retired, Bishop Brown has tried to educate the parish and force them to be the other progressive parishes around them.
Although the people remaining aren't radical traditionalists, so they won't be leaving for independent chapels or an overcrowded indult Mass (again, I refer you to the Open Letter to Tod Brown, Bishop of Orange) these good people have next to no place to go.
Moreover, Bishop Brown knows it. That's why he encouraged Fr. Tran to invite them to leave and find someplace where they could go and get what they want. It was, essentially, a veiled invitation to leave the Church (and it implied that they have already left in their hearts, anyway).
I know Fr. Tran has been the one doing all of the talking, but he meets with Bishop brown weekly and has been giving him regular updates on the situation. He, by his own admission, invited these people to leave with the bishop's approval. He is not the pastor of St. Mary's. He is a parish administrator, and he was sent to St. Mary's to eradicate the vestiges of tradition that are so offensive to the spirit of Vatican II crowd. First, we were ghettoized at St. Mary's and it became a haven. Now, since Fr. Johnson retired and because a progressive like Bishop Brown has been our bishop, they weren't content to live and let live. They feel compelled to squash us.
So your suggestion that we vote with our feet is a suggestion that we abandon our last refuge and go to other parishes, some of which stand through the consecration. That's exactly what Bishop Brown would like to see. Then he can make St. Mary's more like the liberal parishes with even greater ease and without any further opposition.
Bishop Brown has been very cautious not to be on record as having an opinion in this matter spoken from his own mouth. He has relied on others to speak for him, throughout. Why do you think that is?
Finally, these people aren't shouting or disrupting Mass. They are quietly, reverently kneeling. They are doing so, as they have always done, some of them, for 80 some odd years. Why is that wrong?

Many folks read through the Rule of St. Benedict following a daily reading schedule that takes them through the Rule three times a year.
It just happens that today's portion, RB 7,34 is brief, but very relevant:
---
Tertius humilitatis gradus est
ut quis pro Dei amore
omni oboedientia se subdat maiori,
imitans Dominum, de quo dicit apostolus:
Factus oboediens usque ad mortem.
The third degree of humility is
that a person for love of God
submit himself to his Superior in all obedience,
imitating the Lord, of whom the Apostle says,
"He became obedient even unto death." (Phil 2:8)
---
Here is a reflection on this by a living master of such matters:
---
It is so simple, so simplistic,
to argue that we live for the God we do not see
when we reject the obligations we do see.
Benedictine spirituality does not allow
for the fantasy.
Benedict argues that the third rung
on the ladder of humility
is the ability to submit ourselves
to the wisdom of another.
We are not the last word,
the final answer,
the clearest insight into anything.
We have one word among many
to contribute to the mosaic of life,
one answer of many answers,
one insight out of multiple perspectives.
Humility lies in learning to listen
to the words, directions and insights
of the one who is a voice of Christ for me now.
To stubbornly resist the challenges of people
who have a right to lay claim to us
and an obligation to do good by us--
parents, spouses, teachers, supervisors--
is a dangerous excursion into arrogance
and a denial of the very relationships
that are the stuff of which our sanctity is made.
Rungs one and two
call for contemplative consciousness.
Rung three brings us face to face
with our struggle for power.
It makes us face an authority outside of ourselves.
But once I am able to do that,
then there is no end to how high I might rise,
how deep I might grow.
---
(Source: http://www.eriebenedictines.org/Pages/INSPIRATION/...)
For a Catholic parishioner,
the "voice of Christ for me now,"
the one who has "a right to lay claim to us
and an obligation to do good by us"
is their Pastor.
In the case of the people of St. Mary's by the Sea,
that is Fr. Tran.
If they have a problem with Fr. Tran,
then they should discuss it, privately, with him.
Then perhaps discretely appeal to, and obey, their Ordinary and chief liturgist, Bishop Brown.
Nobody from the Vatican, whether the Pope or Cardinal Arinze, is going to overstep these legitimate authorities over this parish in such matters.
Sure, they might issue general statements about what is or is not permitted, what should or should not be. But they are never going to come into a fight between a bunch of disobedient parishioners and their legitimate Pastor and Bishop on these questions.
No way.

Tim J.: The problem that we had in Los Angeles is that ALL of the churches in our area remain standing after the Agnus Dei. Having lived in OC, I know that they have similar problems there. You can't escape it.

If Bishop Brown contradicts Rome, who do I obey?
Not me. Have you asked Bishop Brown that question or directly voiced your concerns to him?
Our Blessed Lord said do as they say not as they do. If you have a specific example and want my opinion I will give it.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

The thing is, Rome says to obey your Bishop.
I entered this being very open (that is, confused) on the question, but the more I turn it over, the more I conclude that IF WE ARE DETERMINED TO ATTEND AT A PARTICULAR PARISH we are to obey the authority of that parish.
Certainly in liturgical matters, as long as we are not made to participate in actual sacriledge (invalid hosts, etc...) then we should obey our priest first, then our bishop, then Rome.
Standing can't be said to be sacriledge.
However, I do not accept that the priest or bishop can run people out of the parish based on their posture during the consecration.
Shamefully, the situation seems to have been handled in a ham-fisted manner on both sides, and projects an unloving image to the world. With all the stink, I hope that a higher authority will step in soon to arbitrate.
Were I a parishoner, right now I would either find a different parish, or obey the priest. Surely a massive exodus by hurt parishoners would send a clear message.
In general, though, when you come under a priest's roof, you play by his rules. I attend my current parish because I got tired of the highjinks at our former parish.
Vote with your feet.

Jared Weber wrote:
Can't help but smirk at this statement in the OC diocese statement: "The bulliten article ... was about respect for the liturgical practices of the Church as approved by the Pope."
So ironic given the liturgical practice of kneeling as approved by the Pope.
I reply:
I know what you mean.
It's also ironic for Bishop Brown (through Fr. Tran) to demand obedience as a legitimate superior when he, himself, is not always obedient to the Holy See, especially on liturgical matters, but also through his (Bishop Brown's) support for legal protections for homosexual domestic partnerships.
Based on all I know about the Diocese of Orange and its inner workings, I can honestly say that the diocesan mantra is completely ironic. They say: "Obey, obey, obey!"
I wish they would.

Inocencio,
If Bishop Brown contradicts Rome, who do I obey?

oops that should be "recognizing the authority of the bishop"
Sorry need to finish my first cup of coffee then post comments.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

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