Ever Virgin

by SDG on June 28, 2006

in Mary

Hey, Tim Jones, here.

Several days ago, while commenting on Jimmy’s post entitled James White Responds, I replied to a Catholic-basher who wrote -

"You hold to gnosticism by saying that Mary’s hyman remained intact during and after the birth of Christ. By agreeing with that ancient heresy, you guys are by implication sayin that Christ didn’t have a real human body…"

Now, I knew this was bunk. In my 14 years as a Catholic, I have never heard this taught by anyone. So, I replied-

"Catholics believe no such thing. That is NOT what is meant by Mary’s perpetual virginity.".

And I wasn’t alone. Another commenter replied

"Nobody in the Catholic church is required to believe this.".

… which is certainly my understanding.

I admit that, though I studied well enough on my way to becoming a Catholic, and though I feel I have a good grasp of the fundamentals (thanks to folks like Ludwig Ott and Jimmy Akin), I am no apologist. I am not widely read, and there are doubtless a number of ancillary topics of which I know little or nothing. I am familiar with the Catechism (and have taught CCD classes, as well as Confirmation prep and RCIA), but I have not delved very deeply into either theology or Church history (the councils and the writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church).

So, I was very interested to see a later commenter write -

"Actually, Free Grace is close to the mark on the perpetual virginity thing… the dogma of the perpetual virginity states that Mary remained a virgin before, *during*, and after Jesus’ birth, and the "during" is taken to refer to the retaining of the physical sign of Mary’s virginity…"

He went on to give THIS LINK to an article on the subject, by Fr. John Saward.

I followed the link and read the article. The commenter was right that a good number of Fathers and Doctors of the Church believed and taught that Mary remained physically intact (no disruption of the birth canal) even during Jesus birth. According to the article -

"It is of divine faith for Catholics to hold that our Lady not only conceived the divine Word as man "without seed, by the Holy Spirit" but also gave birth to Him "without corruption."."

The article continues -

"According to the Church’s Doctors, this freedom from corruption means that the God-Man leaves His Mother’s womb without opening it (utero clauso vel obsignato), without inflicting any injury to her bodily virginity (sine violatione claustri virginalis), and therefore without causing her any pain.".

So it appears that I was wrong in asserting that "Catholics believe no such thing"… some Catholics do. But can this be called the teaching of the Church on this point? Is it, in fact, defined doctrine?

The Church does indeed maintain that Mary remained a virgin before, during and after Jesus’ birth, giving birth to Christ "without corruption"… but what does this really mean? I am certainly open to the idea that Jesus was born in a miraculous way that was unlike natural childbirth… something like the way he could appear and disappear at will after his resurrection, seeming to move through walls.

But opinion has not been unanimous on the subject. The following are from Father Saward’s footnotes to the article;

"…St John Chrysostom, for example, is content to assert the fact of the miraculous preservation of our Lady’s virginity during childbirth and refuses to delve into the details; "…Although I know that a virgin this day gave birth, and I believe that God was begotten before all time, yet the manner of this generation I have learnt to venerate in silence, and I accept that this is not to be probed too curiously with wordy speech.".

"…Quite a few of the Fathers asked for an unambiguous declaration not only to affirm the Virginal Conception of Jesus—which the Christian faith has never doubted—but also fully to safeguard the aphorism Virgo ante partum, in partu et post partum. The Council thought that the terminology it employed could suffice for this end, without going into biological details. "

"…St Thomas says that the hymen pertains to virginity only per accidens, and that its rupture by any means other than sexual pleasure is no more destructive of virginity than the loss of a hand or foot (cf. ST 2a2ae q. 152, a. I, ad 3). However, he also holds that bodily integrity belongs to the perfection of virginity."

So, it appears to me that, though the council had the opportunity to affirm Mary’s virginal integrity through childbirth in clearly physical terms, they chose not to do so.

Also, some saints and doctors of the Church (like St. John Chrysostom, above), while holding that Mary remained always a virgin, were reluctant to delve too deeply into the exact mode of Jesus’ birth.

Perhaps for many, or even most, of the early Church Fathers and saints, it might have been impossible to imagine that a woman could be called a virgin once her female parts had been opened, either in the act of sex, or in the act of childbirth. They might, therefore, have been culturally conditioned to understand Mary’s virginal purity through childbirth in physical terms (just as we may be culturally conditioned to be skeptical of miraculous explanations).

In modern times, we have a narrower understanding of virginity that means merely "never having had sex". Indeed, if most of us today knew of a young woman who had conceived and given birth without the benefit of any male participation (no sex, no male seed to fertilize the egg) we would surely have no problem describing this as a "virgin birth", even though mother and child had experienced normal and natural childbirth. I would certainly never maintain that the woman could no longer truly call herself a virgin.

It seems to me, then, that Catholics, while they must uphold that the Blessed Virgin was truly "Ever Virgin", are free to believe either that,

1) Jesus slipped from his mother’s womb in some miraculous way that  preserved her from any bodily disruption (in other words, without opening her womb).

or that,

2) Jesus experienced a natural childbirth, but that this in no way disqualifies Mary from the title "virgin".

or some combination of the two (like perhaps it was a natural childbirth, but Mary was miraculously preserved from its physical effects).

This is all new to me, but my understanding at present is that Catholics are not required to believe that Jesus slipped out of the womb like a vapor, or that Mary was physically unaltered through the birth process. I am open to either explanation, and can even see a certain poetic symmetry to the assertion, but I am not ready to say that it is anything like a dogma of the Church.

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Hi Larry,
Here is what my Dictionary of Saints says:
St. Bertilda of Mareuil (8th century). Of noble parents, she married a nobleman, was active in charitable works and on his death, lived as a hermitess at Mareuil, France, building a church adjacent to her cell. Jan 3.
There is no mention of virginity. There is a listing for St. Bertilla but, she was a nun in France. Maybe there was some confusion in the Magnificat's accounting?
I had a great-aunt who married and remained a virgin. It was because her husband turned out to be gay.
I believe when a person joins a secular religious order and takes a vow of chastity, it is with the intention of living true to the state of their vocation. If they are single , and remain so, they are to remain celibate. If they are married, they are to remain chaste, not celibate, unless their are extraordinary circumstances that prevent them from being intimate.

FWIW - in the January issue of Magnificat, for Wednesday Jan 3, the entry in the "Saints of Today and Yesterday" section that follows each day's prayers is on Saint Bertilia of Marleuil, a virgin from the 7th century who was married. She and her husband agreed to live their married lives in a state of perpetual continence, or as brother and sister. Since she's a saint, one can say that their mutual decision was not sinful in the eyes of God, but rather they gave up a moral good for a different moral good, all for the love of God. So, there is some evidence that this was practiced in the past. My guess is that they used the lives of Mary and Joseph as inspiration.

Pricilla,
Thank you very much for this link. It was very helpful and helped to spark the understanding that Our Blessed Mother, born immaculate, may have remained a virgin, so that she would not bear one ever conceived in original sin.
As Jesus was born, not only of a virgin, but one born of one born without original sin, so she might not bear another, born of original sin, through the line of David.
All things are possible with God. He, Mary and Joseph know all which transpired. We are left only with our limited thinking and desire toward faith, to please Him.
http://www.airmaria.com/?s=perpetual+virginity

I know of 2 franciscan theologian mariologists who did audio talks on this subject. One was done in 2003 and the other was done in regards to the Nativity story movie.
Very informative. You can listen to them on airmaria.com at this link: http://www.airmaria.com/?s=perpetual+virginity
If the link doesn't work just do a search on airmaria.com for perpetual virginity or their other website marymediatrix.com.

Thanks, Bill. You're right, as usual.

We tried, Jared, and with great patience. You sure didn't deserve that snotty remark.

Nope, I don't have all the answers (though the Church does have all of the important ones). But the point is, you're not adequately responding to the facts as laid out. Your assumptions regarding the question Mary asks Gabriel make no sense.

Jared,
Clearly you feel you have all the answers. No need to continue this banter.
God's peace brother.

Lisa: That is clearly preposterous. Mary asked how it was to be "since I do not know man." She knew how it was done.
Try again.

David,
Thank you for your reply. My initial question was to try and understand why God would want two married people to remain celibate. It seems clear contradiction to the vows in Holy Matrimony and suggests that to remain celibate is more holy than to fulfill ones marriage vows and to be fruitful and multiply.
Differentiating between possible, probable and absolute seem to be the goal. In the end all things are possible with God and it is His creation and will that we try to adhere to.
Bill and Jared,
I don't know if Mary intended on remaining virgin all her life. Think it is possible the answer is "no".
When I was younger, I thought moms and dads went to the doctors office to get pregnant. The point being that little girls do not automatically know where babies come from. Perhaps not until they physically find out. Think that is a possible way to look at the Blessed Mother's question to Gabriel.

Lisa: Given your scenario, why did Mary ask Gabriel how should would get pregnant?

Also, David, it is likely that Mary took a vow of virginity, and that St. Joseph was selected to be her protector. The early Christian writings give evidence of this. (I believe the "Protoevangelium of James" is specific). As has been pointed out, Mary's question to Gabriel makes no sense otherwise. Mary may not have known as much about reproduction as does a modern gynecologist, but she certainly knew how babies are normally made.

Lisa,
Sorry if I came across as rude. That wasn't my intention.
My point is that nothing in the Gospels contradicts the idea that Mary remained a virgin. OTOH, many things in the bible, such as the comparision of Mary to the ark of the covenant, clearly lead one to believe the possibility that Mary forever remained a virgin.

Jared,
Are you saying Mary and Joseph were engaged and preparing to marry and remain virgins? Was that acceptable behavior then? Was there no option toward monastic, consecrated life, at the time?
It's my understanding that couples were engaged for a year and lived together but did not consummate their wedding vows until later. ie they abstained and did not intend on remaining virgin in marriage.
I believe the entire accounting of Gabriel's appearance and what was spoken between them and re-counted in the Gospels is to tell us of the virgin birth. In no way does it suggest Mary was figuring on marrying Joseph and remaining virgin. This would be a deception...a lie...a sin. It would go against God's will for married couples.
The only possible explanation that Mary remained "ever virgin" is that God asked her and Joseph to remain celibate, in marriage, and they obeyed. That's the only way I can accept this teaching is true.

Lisa: Think about it for a second. Let's say that Mary intended to have children. She's espoused to Joseph. Cool. Soon, she'll be married and can have those kids. Gabriel shows up and says, "Yo, Mary, you're gonna get pregnant."
In this scenario, she says, "Cool. Hey, why'd you bother to tell me that? That's kinda a gimme, right? I mean I'm getting married and I said I wanted to have kids."
That's what we'd expect her to ask in this case.
But, she doesn't.
She ... asks the angel ... "How will this happen?"
Given the former (false) scenario, this response makes no sense whatsoever. It is, in your words, preposterous.
Why on earth would she ask this? I mean, what kind of a question is that for a prospective wife. Clearly, something is amiss.
The ONLY reasonable explanation (and certainly not preposterous at all) is that she did not intend to engage in the activity that would result in a pregnancy, i.e. sexual intercourse.
If you examine the facts, it is the ONLY thing that makes sense.

David B wrote:
"They must have intended on having subsequent children, as a result of their union. "
Lisa,
Did you read that in any of the four Gospels?"
David,
No. I did not read this in a Gospel. In your tone, "Just as you have not read in any Gospel that Mary remained "ever virgin". or even that she was "without original sin." Which I believe she was.
Matthew 1:18 "...When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost."
Why would Mary be "espoused" to Joseph if it were not to be wed in Holy Matrimony? What were their intentions before St. Gabriel visited Mary? Were they not planning to wed?
Luke 1:26, 27 "And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth. To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary..."
There is that word again, in a second Gospel, "espoused". Is someone going to say that it doesn't mean that their intention was to marry and have children?
I don't understand the presumption that because she asked "How shall this be done, because I know not man?"
that it means she intended on remaining a virgin. This seems preposterous!
I take these passages as the explanation of how Mary conceived by The Holy Spirit, not that she ever intended on remaining a virgin in her marriage to Joseph. Didn't the incident take place before their final wedding vows? Before the possible consummation?

"That's exactly it, Bill912."
Precisely, bill912.
Mary's question just makes NO SENSE except in the context of a prior commitement to celibacy, in spite of her betrothal to Joseph.
I only fairly recently had this pointed out for me, and it absolutely demolishes the idea that Mary figured on having children with Joseph.

"They must have intended on having subsequent children, as a result of their union. "
Lisa,
Did you read that in any of the four Gospels?

That's exactly it, Bill912. Mary wasn't stupid. If she intended to have sex with Joseph, she would've assumed that Jesus would've been Joseph's son, in the same way that John the Baptist was fathered by Zachariah. And she never would've asked the question.
In addition, historians tell us that there was a tradition in the Jewish religion wherein both married and unmarried men and women would agree to live celibate lives. I'll see if I can dig up that reference, but I'm pretty sure it's been well-documented.

If Mary expected to have normal marital relations with Joseph, her question to the angel Gabriel, when he told her she would conceive and have a son--"How can this be, since I know not man?"--makes no sense. She would have expected to conceive a child the usual way. Her question makes sense only if she had expected to remain a virgin after marriage.

Jared wrote,
"Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit. She had to stay faithful to Him in the same way that nuns do."
This makes little sense. Nuns and priests take vows of celibacy. Mary took a vow to wed Joseph before the Holy Spirit came to her. They must have intended on having subsequent children, as a result of their union. Do you see the contradiction?
Having or not having sex, in this case, doesn't determine if one is staying "faithful" to God. Doing His will is. If God's will was that Mary and Joseph remained celibate, despite their marriage vows, then it was His will, and they both did His will.
If Blessed Mother remained "ever virgin" it must have been for God's purpose apart from the state of priests and nuns, remaining celibate. Don't think you can compare the two. Think that's a mistake that places religious in a category above holy matrimony. Don't think that is right, just or fair to God and His creation.

Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit. She had to stay faithful to Him in the same way that nuns do.

Lisa,
You're welcome.
Still don't understand why people, in a married state, would remain celibate, in marriage. It seems like living a lie.
Don't let the exception swallow the rule. There are no other cases that I'm aware of where perpetual virginity is the rule within marriage. For them it would be living a lie. (There are cases, of course, where celibacy within the married state can come to be the norm, but as a general rule one with a celibate calling should not enter into marriage.)

"Meant to include this link to Pope John Paul II's statement on Mary's perpetual virginity..."
Thank you for this. I trust in God's will through His successor to Peter, on spiritual matters.
Still don't understand why people, in a married state, would remain celibate, in marriage. It seems like living a lie.

Lisa,
It has everything to do with Christ's divinity. Do understand that your typical non-Christian does not deny the virginal conception and miraculous resurrection of our Lord. They deny the virgin birth. For example, Muslims believe that Jesus was miraculously conceived and resurrected. They reject his miraculous birth. If you look at anyone who rejects Christ's divinity, they almost always start by rejecting his miraculous birth.

"Maybe if someone could point to the moment in time this was revealed, by God? Was it by a particular Pope or a visionary? Does anyone know where the notion originated?"
It did not have to be specially revealed by God, as it was the constant understanding of the faithful from the earliest days of the Church.
In other words, everyone who knew Mary personally knew that it was so, and passed that on through the living tradition of the Church. It may not be explicit in scripture, but it has been the *sensus fidelum* from the beginning.

Meant to include this link to Pope John Paul II's statement on Mary's perpetual virginity. Among other things, he notes that the Second Council of Constantinople (553) proclaimed Mary's perpetual viriginity, that this has been affirmed by subsequent ecumenical councils, and that Mary's perpetual virginity is assumed and is one of the foundational bases for the infallible dogma regarding Mary's Assumption.

Lisa,
If Mary and Joseph had consummated their marriage, as Matthew suggests in his Gospel...
Matthew does not suggest this in his Gospel. Look at other uses of "until" in Scripture. In 2 Samuel 6:23, Saul's daughter Micah did not have children "until the day of her death." The Greek and Hebrew words for "until" only mean that some action did not occur until that point. There is no implication in Greek or Hebrew (as there might be in English) that the action did occur after that point.
Maybe if someone could point to the moment in time this was revealed, by God? Was it by a particular Pope or a visionary? Does anyone know where the notion originated?
St. Athanasius, in the 300's, is the first Church Father I'm aware of to specifically refer to Mary as "ever-virgin." You are correct that the great Pope John Paul II has beautiful and profound teachings about the goodness and holiness of marriage. Here is what he had to say on Mary's perpetual virginity. Among other things, the Second Council of Constantinople (553) proclaimed Mary as ever-Virgin, and Mary's perpetual virginity is assumed in the infallible doctrine of the Assumption.

It is incorrect to understand the 'until' in Matthew 1:25 as a time conditional to relations. The verse is best understood as:
He had no relations with her [prior to her boring] a son, and he named him Jesus.
The footnote in the NAB is:
Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated "until" does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus' birth, nor does it exclude it.

Thank you for the replies.
I agree Mary's "holiness" is above ours. She IS Blessed Above all Women.
If Mary and Joseph had consummated their marriage, as Matthew suggests in his Gospel, would she have been "less" holy than if they both remained celibate during the remainder of their marriage on earth?
Our Lord said that some will not marry, for the kingdom of heaven, does that mean they have given more to God then those who do? Where does that leave the ones who continue to propagate the earth? If everyone remained virgin, we wouldn't be here too long.
As for Blessed Mother and Joseph. They did marry. Unless I'm wrong, our Catechism teaches, and I think Pope John Paul II spoke about the beauty and holiness of marriage. I think it was God's will for man and wife to be intimate, with each other, to honor God. Sorry, I still don't get why we insist that Mary would be "less" holy if she and Joseph were intimate. It doesn't make God sense to me.
Maybe if someone could point to the moment in time this was revealed, by God? Was it by a particular Pope or a visionary? Does anyone know where the notion originated?

Lisa,
I fully believe in the Virgin conception and birth of Jesus and that Mary, herself was conceived without sin.
However, is Mary more holy by remaining a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Can someone explain that God has revealed this to us?
Yes, she was more holy, because that was God's will. Virginity, considered apart from the will of God, is not more or less holy. God has revealed Mary's perpetual virginity to us through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Although space would not permit an exhaustive recap, there are some very profitable studies in this regard, on the ark of the covenant in the OT, and the need for it to remain pure and undefiled. Mary, we see through Scripture and Tradition, is the ark of the New Covenant. But you're not going to find "proof texts" for this point -- it requires patient study of Scripture and the early Church Fathers, etc.
Is anyone more "holy" if they remain a virgin?
Yes, if that is their calling. No, if it is not.
But virgins are given special honor because of the special witness they give to Christ. Would that virginity were more valued in our society today! How much closer would we be to Christ, married and celibate alike, if that were the case?
Are those who marry and fulfill God's desire that man and woman be fruitful and multiply less "holy" then those who marry and remain virgin?
No, in the ordinary case it would be precisely the opposite. Marriage is intended to be fruitful, and, in the ordinary case, virginity stands in the way of fruitfulness. (Notice, in Mary's case, it did not. She was more fruitful in virginity than anyone else could be without.)
Was the marriage of Mary and Joseph invalid?Was it never consummated?
It was not consummated in the ordinary sense, but we can rest assured that it was valid.
What of Matthew's statement in his Gospel that they had no relations until after the birth of Jesus?
Linguistically, the statement literally refers only to what preceded it, and has no bearing on what comes after. I understand that is not the usual understanding in English, but this is another one of those cases where it pays to study the text in its original language (or at least refer to what others who have studied it in the original language have noticed).
Why do we insist that conjugal union between a husband and wife is defilement? I do not understand.
Again, it is not, in the ordinary case. It can be, of course, when it is used in ways other than that in which God wills. Just because sex, properly used, between a husband and wife is good, does not mean that all sex between a husband and wife is good. Periods of abstinence are also good.

I meant to say: "Marriage is a symbol of the union which all of the Living have with Christ in heaven." Sorry about the mistake.

Lisa,
Remaining a virgin wouldn't be virtuous if the thing one is giving up, namely marriage, were not also virtuous.
Those who practice perfect chastity are usually less concerned with earthly things than married people are. I believe Paul said something to that effect in the Bible.
Marriage is a symbol of the union which is the Living will have with Christ in heaven. Those Catholics who remain chaste all their lives have taken a step closer to the perfect union we will have with Our Lord in heaven.
Remember, it is not a choice between good and bad, but between good and better.

I fully believe in the Virgin conception and birth of Jesus and that Mary, herself was conceived without sin.
However, is Mary more holy by remaining a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Can someone explain that God has revealed this to us?
Is anyone more "holy" if they remain a virgin? Are those who marry and fulfill God's desire that man and woman be fruitful and multiply less "holy" then those who marry and remain virgin?
Was the marriage of Mary and Joseph invalid? Was it never consummated? What of Matthew's statement in his Gospel that they had no relations until after the birth of Jesus?
Why do we insist that conjugal union between a husband and wife is defilement? I do not understand.

I was using "dogma" in a more general sense to mean "teaching," not necessary formal teaching that Catholics are required to believe. I had the original Greek meaning of the word in mind, perhaps misleadingly.
While it is my opinion that Mary's virginity in partu is a formal dogma, I didn't post so much to demonstrate that as to point out that Matthew 1:23 asserts the teaching. According to Matthew 1:23, a virgin will give birth to a son, and this is precisely virginity in partu (i.e., virginity in giving birth). The miracle that Isaiah foresaw and proclaimed was twofold: a virgin will conceive and a virgin will give birth.
I'm not interested in speculating on the biology of this, though.

"...the dogma of Mary's in-partu virginity."
That's not a dogma, i.e., something that, as Catholics, we are required to believe.

Correction: The scriptural verse is question is Matthew 1:23, not 2:23 as I wrote above.

It seems to me that the Bible teaches rather straightforwardly Mary's virginity in partu, and I am surprised that we Catholics don't cite the clearest scriptural statement on this truth more often.
Here it is:
Matthew 2:23, quoting Isaiah, does not state merely "Behold, a virgin shall conceive," but "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and shall give birth to a son."
Most conservative Christians, including many Protestants, have insisted that that when Isaiah prophesied that "a virgin shall conceive," he meant "a virgin shall conceive (while remaining a virgin)."
Well, the same "virgin" is also the subject of the second verb in the sentence "a virgin shall give birth." Consistency and grammar demand that if "a virgin shall conceive" means "a virgin shall conceive (while remaining a virgin)," then "a virgin shall give birth" must mean "a virgin shall give birth (while remaining a virgin)," and this is of course precisely the dogma of Mary's in-partu virginity.

Inocencio,
"And what authority do you ascribe to your teaching and understanding of Sacred Scripture?"
Well, it is not the Catholic church's "authority," and thus I doubt it would be any use discussing it here. Another one of those situations where neither of us will see the other's point of view.
Meretrice

"Sometimes even less, given their aptitude and willingness to teach erroneous understandings of Scripture."
And what authority do you ascribe to your teaching and understanding of Sacred Scripture?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

and therefore was sinning against God (by disobeying his commandment to multiply
You really serious ?
Does it follow then that Jesus sinned because he didn't multiply?

Getting married with no intention of procreating isn't a sin?

A marriage that by mutual agreement is never consummated is no sin, correct.

Anyways, I knew that this debate would never change anybody's mind, my intention was to try and figure out why the Catholic church bothered to make Mary's 'perpetual' virginity a dogma.

I hope that my discussion above regarding the category of "holiness" in the sense of that which is "set apart" for a unique divine purpose and is therefore off limits to men (the ark of the covenant, etc.) was helpful in this regard.

What about the Eastern Orthodox view that Joseph was a widower with children from a previous marriage?
It is not important to my faith if Mary had other children, which is good and natural.
The body and sex and having children is good.

Getting married with no intention of procreating isn't a sin?
Anyways, I knew that this debate would never change anybody's mind, my intention was to try and figure out why the Catholic church bothered to make Mary's 'perpetual' virginity a dogma.
April
http://www.meretrice.com

"I know what you'll say... "brother and sisters" = cousins, step-siblings, "we're all a brotherhood of man," or some other twisting of Scripture to support the idea Mary never did it, despite the clarity of the passage.".
What passage is that, exactly? And why do you insist on it's "clarity" when the Bible does, in fact, use ambiguous language? The gospel writers didn't speak English, as I'm sure you know.
You seem extremely uncomfortable with the very real possibility that Jesus had step-siblings through Joseph. Why?
Brotherhood of man? Come on, your thrashing, now.
"Given that the Bible doesn't even HINT that Mary was a lifelong virgin..."
Except it does...
"The burdon of proof is on your side..."
Well, as I said, if you insist on limiting the evidence to strictly that of the biblical text, then there is no need to go any further. Mary's perpetual virginity can be supported, but not proved, from scripture.
One more thing... God never issued a command that every.single.person. go forth and multiply. As has been pointed out, there was a long-standing tradition of consecrated virginity in the Israelite community, up to and including John the Baptist! Was he sinning because he never married?
There have always been those who were set apart to do the work of God, and they were often, like John, basically hermit monks... no wife or family, no alcohol, often fasting, abstaining from meat, etc...
Catholics did not invent the idea of celibacy.
Neither Mary nor Joseph sinned, or could have sinned, by breaking a non-existent commandment.
The Bible states;
"Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph..."
If Joseph was understood by the community to be the father of Jesus, was he then guilty of fraud? By your logic, yes.
As for there being no record of consecrated female virgins in the OT, so what? There is no prior record of any virgin birth, either. As the Holy Spirit said through Isaiah, "See, I am doing a new thing!".

As SDG agreed, her comment "How shall this be done, because I know not man?" could be taken to mean that the conception would occur that day or 30 years in the future.

You don't seem to be following me. It was the angel's declaration -- not Mary's -- that "could be taken to mean that the conception would occur that day or 30 years in the future. Mary was in no position whatsoever to be implying or inferring anything regarding when the conception would occur. All she knew was what the angel said -- and the angel didn't say.
What you don't seem to have grappled with yet is how Mary could have known that the angel wasn't speaking of one of the children you say she was planning on having with Joseph. Until you can explain that, this passage is a great big question mark for your POV.

Reading that one sentence and trying to determine what was going on inside Mary's head is impossible.

I'm not asking for a determination -- just a plausible possibility. How could Mary have known that the angel wasn't speaking of one of the children you say she was planning on having with Joseph?

Why would she become betrothed to Joseph if she never intended to sleep with him? Why would Joseph agree to marry her if she intended to be a virgin forever?

No clear answers here; the earliest tradition (not a binding part of the faith) indicates that Joseph was a widower who married Mary on the understanding that she was a consecrated virgin, with the intent of providing for her and acting as guardian of her virginity.

Prior to Mary there are no examples of Biblical women intending to be virgins and unmarried.

In the NT we do find a very different perspective on virginity and the unmarried state, viz. Jesus' teaching on remaining unmarried as "eunuchs for the kingdom" in Mt 19, St. Paul's teaching on the advantages for both men and women of the unmarried state in 1 Cor 7, St. John's idealizing of the 144,000 as unmarried "virgins" who have not "defiled themselves with women" (obviously not to say that conjugal relations "defile" one, but clearly unmarried virginity is seen in a highly honored light here).

Mary was a Jewish girl, and according to the Old Covenant, deciding to be a virgin perpetually goes against God's command to "be fruitful and multiply."

The Old Covenant taught no such thing. God even commanded the prophet Jeremiah not to take a wife. Was God commanding Jeremiah to sin?

Jesus had brothers and sisters whose mother is not named. Who else could it be other than Mary?

What on earth are you talking about? Just because the Bible calls the "other Mary" the "mother of James and Joses" without going on to name also Simon and Jude and the sisters, how does it follow that Jesus' brethren aren't all siblings, children of the same mother?
If you infer from the fact that the Bible calls the "other Mary" the "mother of James and Joses" means that she was only the mother of James and Joses -- not the others -- shouldn't you equally infer from the fact that Jesus' mother Mary is always only called "the mother of Jesus" -- never the mother of anyone else -- that she must be only his mother?

"I see no reason to discount the consistent testimony of the earliest Christians on the matter. The constant tradition of the faithful has been that Mary was a consecrated virgin and there is nothing in scripture that contradicts this."
Right... except the fact that Jesus had brothers and sisters whose mother is not named. Who else could it be other than Mary? Wait, wait... I know what you'll say...
"brother and sisters" = cousins, step-siblings, "we're all a brotherhood of man," or some other twisting of Scripture to support the idea Mary never did it, despite the clarity of the passage.
And then there is the sticky business about her being betrothed to Joseph at the time of the anunciation. If she intended to be a lifelong virgin, as some have claimed here, then she was committing a fraud and is not sinless, as has also been claimed. Based on your claims she must have either:
1) Never intended to be a virgin her entire life, but was a virgin upon the conception of Jesus.
2) Intended to be a virgin her entire life, and therefore was sinning against God (by disobeying his commandment to multiply) and Joseph. If Joseph had an agreement with her that they would never do it, he was sinning too for the same reason. In either case, Mary was committing fraud.
"Therefore, honest enquirers must be willing to look elsewhere for helpful evidence. If that is precluded, then the question has no hope of being resolved."
Given that the Bible doesn't even HINT that Mary was a lifelong virgin, why do I need to look for support of it? The burdon of proof is on your side.
As for the "constant tradition of the faithful," I ascribe to them no more merit to their opinions than any other learned men and women. Sometimes even less, given their aptitude and willingness to teach erroneous understandings of Scripture.
Meretrice

I will add that, IMO, Mary's perpetual virginity can be neither proved or disproved from scripture.
Of course, the only evidence some people need of the certain falsehood of any belief is that it is a)Catholic and, b) not found in scripture.
I see no reason to discount the consistent testimony of the earliest Christians on the matter. The constant tradition of the faithful has been that Mary was a consecrated virgin and there is nothing in scripture that contradicts this.
Did Mary always intend to be a lifelong virgin? Did she and Joseph have an understanding? Again, this can only be speculated upon, and never proved. Anyone may find this or that scripture that, looked at a certain way, seems to support their "side", but solid scriptural PROOF is not to be found.
Therefore, honest enquirers must be willing to look elsewhere for helpful evidence. If that is precluded, then the question has no hope of being resolved.
If history itself seems biased in favor of Catholicism, that is enough to make many simply turn away from the study of history.

"As we have discussed before, there is direct mention in the Bible that Jesus had brothers and sisters that can't be explained away as sons of Mary, wife of Clopas. "
Where? And why aren't they cousins, since the word is the same? It is not "explaining away" anything to point that out. I think you are projecting into scripture your own pre-determined theological construct.

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