Re: Mike's comment about Canticle for Leibowitz - the novel seriously considered the possibility that the colonies would be all that survived. The priest/abbot being sent was assured that there were 3 bishops, one was able to consecrate more bishops, and a cardinal. Moreover, the Holy See was considering declaring them an independent patriarchate in case all clergy on the Earth were killed in the expected nuclear war. The book had someone say that the ability to continue the papacy might just happen under some theological theory, but they weren't taking chances.
A really good read, quite moving.
Sarah

Duribg the 1960s, Poul Anderson wrote a really nifty novel called "High Crusade". in which a medieval village vanquishes a UFO and the local baron packs up the whole village, priest and all, and head out into space. They carve out an inter-planetary kingdom based on Anglo-Norman society and they install the priest as "Popelet". of their Christendom.
A good read.
Glenn

Some people in Cincinnati say that the Japanese 200 year record is in jeopardy.
Considering that the only two bishops for the last 45 years or so have been Pilarczyk and Bernardin, some say that we haven't had a bishop in communion with Rome for that long.
Only 155 yeas to go.
Peace in Christ..........Salmon

Ummm... I think we already did that.
Didn't mean to imply that I hadn't... Although it would broaden the interpretation a little bit further.

"Also, discovery of humanoid intelligent carbon-based life forms might make us rethink the literal translation of Genesis..."
Ummm... I think we already did that.

Francis DS- What about little green men? Are they eligible for baptism?
Also, discovery of humanoid intelligent carbon-based life forms might make us rethink the literal translation of Genesis.
Now, silicon-based life forms are another matter.

I have a vague memory of reading that during the dark ages it was considered permissable, by some authorities, to stun heathens with a club before baptizing them...

That's a frivolous thought. Aliens aren't children of Adam and Eve and therefore wouldn't have original sin, hence no need for baptism. Besides, water burns their skin like acid, and their babies are 8 feet tall and sport 3 inch claws -- how would you position them over the baptistery?

Aliens -- well, the argument against baptizing aliens who show every sign of rationality, sin, and belief would be they aren't human, they don't come from the same origin as humans.
Once upon a time, the Pope was confronted with some beings that certainly looked human, and showed every signs of rationality, sin, and belief, but which he could not be certain were of the same origin of him and the rest of Europe, Africa, and Asia. They came from a place that had no connection to these places; I think they were calling it America by then. Did they really come from a common origin?
Tabling that matter, the Pope issued a bull declaring that any being capable of becoming Christian was human.

An interesting question, made all the more interesting given Stephen Hawking's comments of late.

Though I do not support this schismatic church nor Pius XIII, there is an interesting speculative comment on the question of bishops being acclaimed. This comment comes from a supposedly radical traditionalist perspective (viz. the Remnant Catholic church: website: www.trucatholic.org). He, Fr. Pulvermacher (alias Pius XIII)asserts that natural law provides the answer. hmmm. It would be simply ridiculous, if it weren't happening. It is just sad.
But does Pulvemacher have a point? Does his position have bearing on this question? The man supposedly made pope did have the fullness of orders by his ordination to the priesthood, but did not posess the degree of the episcopacy. Does the presence of orders that make a difference in the ratioanle?
In the test case above, all clergy died on the colony. The question of whether the laity can then appoint one person to preside at Eucharist is at issue here. The argument that one must be a bishop to ordain is put forward by the Catechism. Therefore the answer from the authority of Catholic teaching says, "no."
In speculation,(which is what this is all about) One could argue that we have the power to baptize in emergencies, that this is a preistly (sanctifying) act normally reserved to clerics. But, by extension, in extenuating circumstances, one could argue that one might be "elected in dire need" to confect Eucharist. Yet this "dire need" is precisely what the Catholic Church endured in Korea. They had no priests for a while, and then when the new missionary priests arrived, all these Catholics teemed into their presence acclaiming "at last our prayers have been answered." Obviously, the history and sensus fidelium of the Koreans has shown us the answer to this "dubium". Again, the answer would be "No! we cannot ordain either priests or bishops." And 'cannot' does not merely mis-state that we "may not." We lack the ability to make priests.
Furthermore, the 'space bishops problem' says nothing about the Church still here on earth being totally annihilated. The challenge to the church here on Earth, therefore is to send a priest or bishop to the colony, not to create a priest or bishop.

I wonder if a simple priest could become a bishop, after all he does have apostolic sucession. However, for the laity to give the holy orders seems impossible, as can be illustrated by the links in the chain analogy.
But if a remote Catholic colony was to survive the destruction of Earth, could they elect a new pope? It seems the answer would be affirmative, since the Pope is elected by the College of Cardinals.
Now what about baptizing aliens? Sentience is a criteria? Can they receive sacraments or give sacraments? What about an AI entity, a robot, a cyborg, or a brain-in-a-vat? What about quasi-humans like Elfs or Hobbits, and trans-humans, post-humans, mutants?

What about this way of thinking about the dilemma posed by the extreme intergalactic tragedy? Could the surviving Catholics "confer" the sacrament of Holy Orders on the person they determine is called to lead the community if they understand themselves as acting in line with and as local agents of the universal Church of which they remain a part regardless of distance and lack of communication ? I understand that the rite requires a laying on of hands and so forth, but the rite exists in order to make manifest and to celebrate the mystery/reality of ordering the spiritual leadership roles of the people of God. But if we're saying that the surviving Catholics wouldn't be able to confer the sacrament themselves merely because no other bishop is present to lay his hands on the new one, then I think we are limiting the sacrament to the particularities of the rite, which, although developed to express and manifest the sacrament with richness, do not, in and of themselves, contain the sacrament. Furthermore, if we're saying that the surviving Catholics wouldn't be able to confer the sacrament themselves merely because no other bishop is present to give approval, then I suggest that, given such an extreme circumstance, the community could safely assume, despite the impossibility of communication, that their choice would be affirmed by the proper church authorities "back on Earth", eager to see the church continue to exist in the far reaches of space. I understand the essential nature of the bishops under normal circumstances, but this is no normal circumstance. The surviving Catholics, in the scenario I am proposing, would be acting fully aware of the "uniqueness" of their situation and The situation, albeit farfetched and contrived, demands creativity and openness in order to preserve the riches of our faith, as do all new situations.

Eric is right. More importantly, it is quite possible that Alexandria did have its bishop consecrated by the presbyterium of that Church at one time, as attested by certain Fathers. And for a time it seems acceptance of "Confessors" (who had suffered for the faith) as receiving a kind of exceptional ordination by God Himself was permissible and their sacramental ministrations were utilised.
Jimmy's dogmatic pronouncement on the issue is fair enough as a presentation of the "standard" doctrinal position, but whether that position admits of no exceptions whatever has been a matter of theological debate in the West for a very long time. In other words, it is not dogma in the strict sense that non-episcopal ordinations are impossible.

In regards to the joke asking if Catholics in space have Mass? Yes and yes… Mass is not lost in a weightless environment.
In regards to whether or not Bishops would be allowed to confer other Bishops without the consent of Rome on another planet…. My guess is that a planet would be set up as their own Right.

Actually, guys, Dr. Ludwig Ott notes in "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" that for centuries certain priest-abbots were given a papal privilege to ordain other priests and deacons.
So it would seem that, under special circumstances, a priest could ordain another priest or deacon, but not a bishop.

I should add that that's not what happened to Augustine. He went to Hippo, which had a bishop, Valerus, who promptly had him nabbed to be a priest! Then later Valerus had Augustine made his co-adjutor.

St Pio,
For your information, here's a line from Peter Brown's bio of Augustine:
"Soon Alypius [one of Augustine's circle of friends, who were all trying to live as pious laymen] will become Bishop of Thagaste....Augustine was careful to avoid towns where the bishopric was vacant, for fear of similar 'conscription.'"
I remember reading somewhere that a man like Augustine could be literally grabbed by an enthusiastic crowd and dragged into the church and installed as their bishop...

What about confession? If there's no priest to confess to, would it be enough to have contrition and the intent to confess should some priest ever crash-land on the planet? Or are you in danger of hell even if repentant?

"Could the bishop ordain new bishops without the permission of the Pope though. I assume permission would have already been granted if it was known there would be no communication possible, but if communication was expected so no dispensation from the general rule given, and then communication was lost, is there any principle under which the bishop could licitly ordain others?"
Isn't there a principle of necessity that would come into play?

1626 The Church holds the exchange of consent between the spouses to be the indispensable element that "makes the marriage."
CIC can. 1057 § 1

How would these stranded people go about validly conferring the sacrament of marriage? What would they have to say or do to make this happen?

Ah, takes me back to the good old days when there was someone special to discuss such bizzarre hypotheticals with...I knew there was a good reason I was fixin' to git me a huzband!

I may be completely wrong here, but during mission times, weren't certain religious superiors who were Abbots but not Bishops designated by decree to serve as proxy ministers of the sacrament of Holy Orders? Just to ordain priests, no bishops... ?

"Pigs In Space" was a running skit on "The Muppet Show". Their spaceship was called "The Swine Trek".

Informative and great post. But I wonder what is the context of crossing out pigs and putting in Bishops in space? I am sure it is not meant to be disrespectful.

Oh, the possibilities...
I believe something similar was explored in the sci-fi novel A Canticle for Liebowitz. I suppose the Apostolic succession of the Church could continue on the new planet if the spaceship (bishop intact) landed safely and there were sufficient males to ordain for future generations.
This is the same reason why we presume that the Eastern Orthodox, Chinese Catholics, and SSPX have valid bishops, despite being outside communion with Rome.
One problem, however, is that there is no guarantee of protection from heresy. Papal infallability is unique to the bishop of Rome and the Petrine office. New practices, theologies, and rituals will emerge that would be unique to the Church on the new planet. These might not invalidate their church's sacramental validity, but might not be fully in line with the earth-bound Latin Church.
Additionally, suppose several generations after the spacecraft lands, word gets to the planet that earth was destroyed. If there are 8-10 bishops on the new planet at this point, can they elect a new bishop of "Rome"? I suppose that if the bishops descend from the bishop of Rome (as opposed to Byzantine or Maronite Churches), this would not pose any serious canonical issues, except for the fact that there is no Rome left.
Would papal infallibility extend to this new pope?

Mr. Akin, would you comment on the writer's mention of St. Augustine avoiding certain towns so as not to be made their bishop? I noticed you skipped that.

Ruthann: well, without saying yes or no, I don't see how it's particularly different from the situation of Catholic sailors who (in former times, particularly) could spend weeks or months at sea without access to a priest.

...and so the Bishop says to the Priest, "No! I said COLONISTS"...
(Crickets Chirp...)

How did the bishop get in the spaceship with his miter on anyway? :-)

I saw this on the Catholic Answers board, and I just love it.
Even tho Catholics in space are weightless, do they have mass?

Something along these lines...my son hopes to eventually work for NASA, possibly some day being an astronaut. If a Catholic is in space for an extended period of time (say, for months), by his or her own choice (that is, the astronaut willingly selected his or her own occupation), is this considered reason enough to miss Sunday Mass?
I recently saw a photo of a communion set taken into space by an astronaut. Wouldn't this be akin to self-communicating? (Although this possibly was Buzz Aldrin's communion set, and he was not Catholic.)
'thann

Could the bishop ordain new bishops without the permission of the Pope though. I assume permission would have already been granted if it was known there would be no communication possible, but if communication was expected so no dispensation from the general rule given, and then communication was lost, is there any principle under which the bishop could licitly ordain others?

"There were three marks by which these descendants of martyrs recognized these new missionaries as the successors of their ancient fathers: the authority of the Pope of Rome, the veneration of the Blessed Virgin, and the celibacy of the clergy."
Wow! This means that those Japanese Christians were out of touch with Rome for over 200 years & didn't lose faith or vary from Catholic practice. Amazing. God's grace at work!!