Frozen Embryo Adoption

by Jimmy Akin on July 24, 2006

in Moral Theology

A reader writes:

I happened to bump into someone’s blog, and I was just curious about her personal blogs about what she plans with her husband. What she stated is below.  Can you please advise about the Church’s stance if any on what she is referring to below, which is "In Vitro Fertilization Adoption."  Correct me if I’m wrong, but adopting embryos still seems like its morally unacceptable or at least questionable according to Catholic Moral Theology, since you’re still harvesting them?   

"Yes I am Catholic. And yes I know that in vitro is wrong. That is why I want to adopt an embryo. I told my husband before I married him that I didnt feel right about in vitro because I hold to the doctrine of the church. My husband just converted and is more of a liberal catholic. I have already talked to a priest about our situation. Adopting an embryo is taking the embryos that other couples that did in vitro didnt use and instead of throwing them away or giving them to research, couples can adopt. I find this a better alternative for these little lives then letting them stay frozen, die, or even to research."

Thanks, please advise,

Rome has not yet issued a finding regarding the moral acceptability of adopting embryos who would otherwise die in the freezer or be actively destroyed. I anticipate a decision in the coming years, quite possibly during the current pontificate, but for right now Rome is letting moral theologians kick this one around and work out the issues involved.

At present the community of orthodox moral theologians is split: Some have the intuition, as you do, that this is wrong–not because it involves harvesting embryos (implanting them isn’t harvesting them; "harvesting" refers to killing them so that they can be used for possible medical treatments) but because they feel it is intrinsically wrong to implant an embryo from one woman into another. In arguing this, they may appeal to the idea that the development of the child in the womb is part of the reproductive process and is thus inviolable.

Other moral theologians have the opposite intuition, that embryo adoption is morally justifiable in this case becaues the alternative is letting the child die (or be actively killed when the embryo bank decides to junk it). This is not the same situation as surrogate motherhood, where one woman has a child on behalf of another and thus circumvents the normal reproductive process. It is allowing one’s womb to be used to rescue a child who has already been created and who would otherwise die.

Catholics are permitted at present to take either view.

My own instincts are with the second group–that it is morally permissible to adopt embryos in order to keep them from dying.

To my mind, the definitive moment of reproduction is conception. When that happens is when you have a new human being. What happens to it next is not reproduction, because the reproduction has already taken place and we have a new person. What follows (implantation in the womb and subsequent gestation) is simply caring for a new person who already exists and thus is not subject to the same kind of moral unalterability as the act of reproduction itself.

In other words, human reproduction is inviolable, which is why IVF (like adultery) is wrong, but most of what is happening during pregnancy is not reproduction. A new human is produced–and thus reproduction takes place–at the very beginning of pregnancy. What follows is growth, development, and care.

I would analogize the frozen embryo adoption situation to that of a wet nurse. If a child’s own mother is unable or unwilling to nurse the child, it has been a practice throughout human history to have another woman–who is willing and able to nurse the child–to do so. The second woman thus provides the nourishment from her breasts that the child needs when the biological mother is unable or unwilling to do so.

Adopting a frozen embryo strikes me as the same thing, morally: In this case a second woman provides the nourishment and protection from her womb that the child needs and that the biological mother is unable or unwilling to do so.

In both cases care is being provided for the infant by a second woman, the difference being the age of the infant and thus which organs of the overall reproductive system (breasts or the womb) is being used to provide the care that the infant needs at that stage.

This, from my perspective, deals with the intrinsic moral nature of the act. Some might wish to bring in extrinsic considerations, such as whether doing this would encourage people to create more snowflake babies (as they are called).

I do not think that this argument has weight for two reasons;

1) The number of children who can be so-adopted is miniscule compared to the number of frozen embryos that there are. There is no way that anything more than a small fraction of them could be adopted, and thus I do not see that allowing embryo adoption would have an appreciable effect on the number that are created.

2) It could likewise be argued that allowing wet nurses–or even adoption–also encourages people to create children that they are unable or unwilling to care for. No doubt some people do–and certainly they historically have been–sexually looser than they otherwise would have been, in the knowledge that they could put the children that might result up for adoption. That doesn’t mean you let the resulting kids die of neglect. You do what you can to save them, even if you can’t save all of them. In fact, historically Christians were known for picking up foundlings, caring for them, and raising them as Christians.

To my mind, this is a high-tech version of the same thing.

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Hopefully the questions on this issue will be answered by the new document.
New Vatican instruction on bioethics coming December 12
The document on bioethical questions, entitled Dignitas Personae, will be promulgated by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The document is to address some of the controversial ethical issues in the field of biological research, such as embryonic stem-cell research, human cloning, and artificial methods of reproduction.
Dignitas Personae will address the knotty moral issues that have arisen in the fast-developing field of biomedical research since 1987, when the same Congregation-- then headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future Benedict XVI-- issued its instruction Donum Vitae addressing similar bioethical questions.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Interesting article on the this subject.
IVF and the Catholic Couple
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

It is easy for men to make comments when they are not the ones who would be impregnated and carrying a child.
Are we supposed, as good christians and catholics, to fix all the problems that come from separating the sexual act with procreative act?

Keven B.,
Since Jimmy does not always get around to reading everything in the comboxes, especially it seems comboxes that have for the most part gone quiet, I recomend you email Jimmy with this question if you have not already done so.

Jimmy - I am faced with a decision of donating embryos or letting them thaw. Having read thru these many interesting blogs I wonder if talking to priest will do any good since the Vatican is still kicking around the whole frozen embryo issue - maybe for many years to come. I can't see a priest adding anything more than I have read in your blogs. My wife and I obviously did not do our homework when we went thru in-vitro. We have one beautiful daughter from the process (there was no selective elimination)but subsequent physical issues prevented my wife from any further embryo transfers. Now we faced we this decision. Your thoughts?

J.R. Stoodley,
The Church does support adoption even DV states:
"Physical sterility in fact can be for spouses the occasion for other important services to the life of the human person, for example, adoption, various forms of educational work, and assistance to other families and to poor or handicapped children."
My impression is that a document from the CDF or any other currial office is not Magisterial teaching at all unless approved by the Pope
DV ends with the following:
"During an audience granted to the undersigned Prefect after the plenary session of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Supreme Pontiff, John Paul II, approved this Instruction and ordered it to be published.
Given at Rome, from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, February 22, 1987, the Feast of the Chair of St. Peter, the Apostle.
JOSEPH Card. RATZINGER
Prefect
ALBERTO BOVONE
Titular Archbishop of Caesarea in Numidia Secretary"
Again, I am trying to get the best understanding of ET and if the process itself is morally licit. I know we need further guidance and I am as hopeful as Jimmy that we will receive it in the pontificate.
I have done my best to formulate my understanding from the Church documents that deal with marriage and procreation. I know my arguments are not air-tight but I have not been convinced that ET is morally licit from anything I have read so far.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Inocencio,
I missed or you did not point out before that passage. I think this is the best arguement against embryo adoption I have heared so far. It is the first time I have heard of the idea of gestational parenthood and the evil of separateing it from genetic parenthood. On the other hand, a strict interpretation would preclude normal adoption as well.
I also found these skiming DV
The child has the right to be conceived, carried in the womb, brought into the world and brought up within marriage: it is through the secure and recognized relationship to his own parents that the child can discover his own identity and achieve his own proper human development.
and also
Surrogate motherhood represents an objective failure to meet the obligations of maternal love, of conjugal fidelity and of responsible motherhood; it offends the dignity and the right of the child to be conceived, carried in the womb, brought into the world and brought up by his own parents; it sets up, to the detriment of families, a division between the physical, psychological and moral elements which constitute those families.
In all three cases it seems like two interpretations are possible. Either the separation of any of these elements is always wrong, or the Church is expressing what is the right of every child but where that right has already been taken away works of charity like adoption could step in which are below the child's dignity but better than letting them die.
The way quote you just gave is different though is that it introduces a distinct idea of gestational parenthood. I can imagine it being always wrong for a woman to become a gestational parent to a child who is not her genetic child.
Still, this is not what it explicitly says. You almost had me convinced until I thought of the implications for normal adoption, which I have only heared promoted by the Church.
Even if we were to grant that DV does preclude embryo adoption, how much weight does it hold? My impression is that a document from the CDF or any other currial office is not Magisterial teaching at all unless approved by the Pope (in which case that approval is the Magisterial teaching, lending weight to the document itself and making it basically impossible to reject). Do you know if this got some such endorsement?

J.R. Stoodley,
Inocencio on the other hand seems to hold that implantation and nurturing the embryo is so bound up with reproduction that it also is not allowed to happen outside married love.
DV does state:
"The fidelity of the spouses in the unity of marriage involves reciprocal respect of their right to become a father and a mother only through each other."
This is also stated in the CCC 2376.
And one of the reasons DV prohibits Heterologous artificial fertilization is because "...it offends the common vocation of the spouses who are called to fatherhood and motherhood: it objectively deprives conjugal fruitfulness of its unity and integrity; it brings about and manifests a rupture between genetic parenthood, gestational parenthood and responsibility for upbringing.
I know everyone agrees that IVF is immoral. I am suggesting that depriving conjugal fruitfulness of its unity and intergrity is immoral and I think ET does that.
Also causing a rupture between genetic parenthood and gestational parenthood is part of the reason why I think ET would be considered immoral.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Sorry about the double post. My computer or typepad did a weird thing.

Getting pregnant from being raped is not immoral because the woman had no choice in the matter. The issue here is whether a woman may licitly be impregnated by any means other than natural copulation. I don't see why not, since the "impregnation" we are talking about is not reproduction but just sheltering and nurishing a baby.
Inocencio on the other hand seems to hold that implantation and nurturing the embryo is so bound up with reproduction that it also is not allowed to happen outside married love.
Perhaps it is just unnatural and wrong for a woman to carry within her a child not her own or her husband's. I might lean that way if it were not for the great good that could come from embryo adoption, which may indicate that I am letting the ends obscure my judgement of the means.
I'm glad the Vatican is working on this. I hope B16 decides to teach on this himself not just some Currial office so we can have a more unquestionable answer.

Getting pregnant from being raped is not immoral because the woman had no choice in the matter. The issue here is whether a woman may licitly be impregnated by any means other than natural copulation. I don't see why not, since the "impregnation" we are talking about is not reproduction but just sheltering and nurishing a baby.
Inocencio on the other hand seems to hold that implantation and nurturing the embryo is so bound up with reproduction that it also is not allowed to happen outside married love.
Perhaps it is just unnatural and wrong for a woman to carry within her a child not her own or her husband's. I might lean that way if it were not for the great good that could come from embryo adoption, which may indicate that I am letting the ends obscure my judgement of the means.
I'm glad the Vatican is working on this. I hope B16 decides to teach on this himself not just some Currial office so we can have a more unquestionable answer.

"Rape wrongs a woman whether she conceives or not. "
That's a remarkably obvious statement, I hope you don't suggest I said something to the contrary.
"It's never a morally licit thing that pregnancy should result"
Then we should give rape victims plan B? There are plenty of reasons rape is immoral, pregnancy (the gift from God of a child) is not one of them. Pregnancy in and of itself is neither moral nor immoral.
The distinction I'm making here is that it may be that a pregnancy resulting from an immoral act, doesn't necessarily result in the actual impregnation being immoral. In the case of rape it is the rape that's immoral, in the case of embryo adoption, it's the IVF that's immoral, not necessarily the ET.

It is morally licit for the woman to become pregnant by rape even though steps could be taken to prevent it, it is immoral for the rapist.
Woah. WOAH. A little discernment here. Rape wrongs a woman whether she conceives or not.
Impregnation as a result of rape is but one VERY GOOD proof of many, why rape is wrong.
Impregnation as a result of rape can be an unfortunate consequence of rape that can follow when nature takes its course in an unfortunate fertile woman, but it's one of the very things that makes rape as ugly as it is. It's never a morally licit thing that pregnancy should result after a crime. It's only a proof among many proofs that shows rape for the evil that it is.
That's like saying it's morally licit for me to have my teeth naturally fall out after I've just been punched in the face.

Matt McDonald,
"You return to this one point repeatedly, as if it is somehow a complete and irrefutable argument against embryo adoption."
As I pointed out "My questions remain the same."
Since I was incorrect in my understanding of the ET process needing the woman's fertility I simply wanted to clarify my concerns/questions. Especially, after James Stroud accused me of condoning murder and mortal sin. I apologize if it somehow offended your sensibilities.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Inocencio,
"If you think it is morally licit for a wife to become pregnant outside of the conjugal union of her husband to attempt to save an embryo do you base that on DV or some other document"
You return to this one point repeatedly, as if it is somehow a complete and irrefutable argument against embryo adoption. It is morally licit for the woman to become pregnant by rape even though steps could be taken to prevent it, it is immoral for the rapist.
Is is moral to take an action which will guarantee your own death? of course not...
unless, under certain circumstances where you are permitted, and scripturally encouraged, to lay down your life for your friends. So circumstances can change the moral licitness of similar actions.
Becoming pregnant by voluntary adultery/fornication, or voluntary IVF/ET is of course immoral. Becoming pregnant by ET in order to save a babies life may be immoral, but we're still waiting for a definitive answer.

Leigh,
"So within the next decade or two NICU technology could advance to the point that we can save any ultra-premie from the time the woman first realizes she's pregnant."
I don't have the same optimism as you about the advances we think medical science has made or will make. This article is food for thought.
THE HIDDEN DANGERS OF IN VITRO FERTILIZATION By Bradley Mattes, MBS
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

But if artificial wombs are immoral, yet Isolettes and other incubator technology for saving premies is moral, might there come a point where we literally cannot tell the difference between one and the other on a purely technological basis?
Already our efforts to save ultra-premies is having weird effects on US infant mortality statistics, because our NICU's routinely make an effort to save babies born so early that other countries would consider them to be miscarriages. (I've even heard that the statistical anomality caused by ultra-premie deaths is already more significant to our infant-mortality stats looking bad in relation to other countries than deaths of born-at-term babies that are low birth weight due to maternal poverty).
Every year we further push back the boundaries at which we can not only save ultra-premies, but also save them without physical or mental impairments. One of the techniques that's showing the most promise for major breakthroughs in saving ultra-premies is the use of a special oxygenation fluid for them to breathe until their lungs develop sufficiently for them to breathe air. It's been done for several years on an experimental basis, long enough that one little girl who was given little hope of survival, and that as a massively mentally and physically disabled ruin, has entered kindergarten in the *gifted* program.
There are also efforts to figure out ways to delay certain key changes in the heart and lungs that occur during birth so even younger ultra-premies can be saved, by effectively replicating the uterine environment and continuing to deliver nutrition and oxygen through the umbilical cord. This will enable NICU's to save premies so tiny their lungs haven't developed enough to survive even with fluid breathing, and those whose digestive systems haven't developed enough to allow them to take oral nourishment.
So within the next decade or two NICU technology could advance to the point that we can save any ultra-premie from the time the woman first realizes she's pregnant. If major nanotech breakthroughs occur, that point could even be pushed back to moments after *conception*. Could there be a point at which we would be morally obligated to *stop* doing our best to save ultra-premies, and instead just wring our hands as we watch them die?
Or might the moral line lie not in the technology itself, but the motivation for its use? That is, whether it's used to save a baby that otherwise would die, as opposed to letting some "too posh to push" celebrity to have a baby without having to go through nine months of pregnancy with it, simply because she has the money to pay for it out of pocket as an elective, rather than it being medically necessary to save the baby?

Inocencio,
To be quite honest I have not read the actual document, only what you have quoted from it, which I presume to be the most relevent parts for this discussion. I would read the whole document but I am commenting on this blog as short breaks between working on a big project.
I'm afraid I am not basing my comments on any specific text, just my own reason and conscience and my impression (largely from reading) about what Church teachings are and are not (authoritative and in some cases infallable but not inspired). If you have any authoritative texts that actually condemn this practice then I shall willingly accept them, but it seems from what Jimmy wrote that there is no such thing (yet).
If you want to only base what you write here on Church documents that's fine. You are much less likely to make mistakes then me with that method, but I still choose to express my own private speculations here at times.

J.R. Stoodley,
I am basing most of my thoughts on what the Church has taught about the unitive and procreative nature of the conjugal union of husband and wife.
I thought embryo adoption was allowed until I read DV. You read it and got exactly the opposite perspective.
I do appreciate you taking the time to read it and commenting even if I disagree with your conclusion.
If you think it is morally licit for a wife to become pregnant outside of the conjugal union of her husband to attempt to save an embryo do you base that on DV or some other document?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Inocencio,
An artificial uterus is contrary to the dignity of the human embryo, but then so is dieing in a Petri dish. Nothing in these documents you have quoted seems to actually condemn embryo adoption. It seems more like the possibility was not thought of by the authors, and thus the documents do not apply to it. Remember, these are not divinely inspired texts. They should be taken seriously, but they need not be considered perfect, so deriving conclusions from statements like "with no possibility of their being offered safe means of survival which can be licitly pursued"? that the authors did not intend would not make sense, even if those conclusions did follow from a literal interpretation of the words. Is this making sense? You have to consider what the Church is actually trying to teach in a document, and there seems to be no evidence that they were trying to teach anything on embryo adoption.
When speaking of artificial uteruses they may have been thinking of the idea of creating babies specifically to be reared in artificial uteruses, which it contrary to human dignity, not saving babies already created by IVF as a sort of rescue mission.
On the other hand, if freezing fetuses is intrinsically evil then the "extra" embryos would have to be put into the artificial uterus essentially immediately, which suggests their becoming an established part of the IVF process, and that would be bad.
Hopefully the Vatican will clarify these issues soon.

francis 03,
But let me ask you guys a question: if we invented artificial wombs, would their use be morally licit?
I wanted to point out that DV 1:6 does specifically address artificial uteruses:
"Techniques of fertilization in vitro can open the way to other forms of biological and genetic manipulation of human embryos, such as attempts or plans for fertilization between human and animal gametes and the gestation of human embryos in the uterus of animals, or the hypothesis or project of constructing artificial uteruses for the human embryo. These procedures are contrary to the human dignity proper to the embryo, and at the same time they are contrary to the right of every person to be conceived and to be born within marriage and from marriage."
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

I cannot seem to find the article I read concerning the wife's fertile period and embryo adoption. And as Matt pointed out a 62 year-old woman had an embryo successfully implant in her. I asked to be corrected if my understanding was wrong.
My questions remain the same.
Is it morally licit for a wife to become pregnant outside of the conjugal union of her husband? Though the end is good, the child is already conceived BUT the wife is made pregnant by the intrusion of others in her womb.
Is it morally licit for an unmarried woman to become pregnant outside of marriage?
Since DV was aware of ET techniques as used in "surrogate" motherhood how do we understand the document when it states "with no possibility of their being offered safe means of survival which can be licitly pursued"?
Though the end is good and the child is already conceived BUT the wife is made pregnant by the intrusion of others in her womb.
For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does. 1 Cor 7:4
As we all have I hope and pray for guidance.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Also, keep in mind that in the book, it was not motherhood and gestation or conception that were linked, but rather motherhood and sexuality.
I believe that the interview from which that quote was taken took place in 1985. Basically, he was lamenting the notions of having sex without openness to children (contraception) and the idea of artificial procreation, without sex.
If embryo adoption is deemed immoral by the Church, it may be primarily on these grounds. To a lesser extent it would be about whether it violates chastity, as Inocencio alluded to above.
Additionally, but not entirely relevant to this forum, Ratzinger discussed the notion that a married mother with children is perceived by society as asexual or (to put it crudely,) unsexy, while a single unmarried woman is perceived as a sexual object.

Karen,
I just want to point out the reference to The Ratzinger Report was a comment by mike.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

If he said that motherhood and gestation are inseperable, he could have been speaking of the whole of the female condition but not specific pregnancies.
"In one of my favorite books, The Ratzinger Report, then-Cardinal Ratzinger lamented society's separation of sex and motherhood, which according to the principles of natural law are intriniscally connected. This is manifested fully and purely in the sacramental union of matrimony."
See, you can only take it so far because of the example of Mary, who conceived (and was impregnated) not through Joseph but in another way.
I feel stuck. You have a right to be impregnated in a licit way. Rape isn't one of them. In Mary's case, God made it licit. Somehow. She was special and I'm just not sure anymore that we can learn from this example in the way of deriving a normal principle from it when she was extra-ordinary. I mean if you want to take it that far, then you can advocate adultery and having kids outside of marriage for us normal folks. The example of Mary only goes so far sometimes, unfortunately.

Great comment Karen. I think that whichever way the Church ends up ruling on this it's going to have to engage in some explaining of the type you were engaged in.

Does anyone else think that the CCC teaching is meant to be taken in the context of fertilization--and it just happens to mention surrogate wombs, because being an accomplice in the evil of IVF in this way is just that? Back in the day, we always heard about women offering to be surrogates, not adopting frozen embryos. Context is important. And do you get the sense that the teaching was directed at a specific audience--the ones who'd desire unnatural means of conceiving-- and not potential embryo-adopters? As far as the CCC quote goes, it does seem that way to me.
For that matter, is DV binding or is that just an admonition to be careful, with no binding teaching meant to be taken from it?
Does anyone else think that language is getting in the way once more? Just because Lutherans call themselves Catholics doesn't make them so, for example. In another threads, I pointed out that "cannibalism" was defined before there was any concept of a God-Man asking us to receive him--a totally transcendent concept. Today we've got a clearer definition of usury so that playing the stock market and loaning at reasonable interest rates is an acceptable thing to do. And in another thread, I pointed out the difficulties in equating sexual differences that women have to men, with reproductive parts. Just because women's breasts are different to men's doesn't make them "sexual" (reproductive) parts. There's a tendency across cultures to some extent to make women cover up that which is different to men, where we never inversely call men's differences "sexual" and demanding they be covered. I submit: doesn't it solve the whole thing if you admit that breasts are not actually reproductive parts and that the fact that differences between the sexes is not reason enough for one sex to cover their parts? (If it were true in principle, men need to cover their breasts because they're different to women's).
Breasts and wombs are strictly, not reproductive. They house and nourish like bricks and milk bottles do. We don't hear of a spouse's right to house only children conceived through the conjugal act, because that would preclude the licitness of adopting post-born children.
I read Innocencio's comments on Benedict's comments about separating conception from motherhood in general. I also read the comment about learning from our Blessed Mother. Perhaps Benedict was thought-meandering--though I respect him profoundly--and he didn't have these issues to consider at the time he wrote. If what he wrote wasn't binding then it's just that, though I acknowledge his genius. If he said that motherhood and gestation are inseperable, he could have been speaking of the whole of the female condition but not specific pregnancies. And, perhaps we can learn from our Blessed Mother who allowed herself to be impregnated by other means besides Joseph, by whom she ordinarily had the right to be impregnated by. Mary could be the example, but in the inverse. There is a right to conceive with your spouse. But Mary shows us that it's a right that can be relinquished. Just on what grounds needs to be figured out, from where I see it. "Because it would do more harm not to" isn't a valid argument because Catholicism is against "ends justifies the means" or "lesser evil" justifications.
One objection is, that of treating women's bodies like a commodity. In the case of offering yourself to be a surrogate to someone wanting to perform IVF, that's true. You're not a commodity though, when you adopt, don't agree with IVF, and only want to save a child. And you're not unfairly treating women's wombs as incubators. Women's wombs actually are already incubators even when they conceive their own children. God's plan has it such that women give a whole lot of their bodies and suffering through their bodies as Christ did--that's the dignity in pregnancy. What we want to avoid is seeing women as subhuman baby incubators because of the function of their wombs and believe me I understand that.
Reading here has made half a dozen more strains of thought bounce around through my head so I wanted to present them briefly to you kind and smart folks. I believe that everyone has good, God-seeking intentions.
I have reservations about what could be playing with fire and I know what Innocencio is saying when Innocencio says: I am open to any argument that shows how God's moral order and natural laws are respected. Amen!

The only way I know of in which a embryo may die naturally is in the womb through some form of miscarriage or spontaneous abortion.
That might be analogous to saying "The only way to let adults die naturally is by removing extraordinary means of life support". The problem is, it's okay to do this!

Inocencio,
there is an instance of a 62 year old woman who was successfully implanted, and obviously many of the women who are using IVF/ET are not fertile.
pax vobiscum

Matt McDonald,
You make a good argument, why do you have to lower yourself to such a misleading and arguably "ad hominem" assertion?
I meant no "ad hominem" assertion, I just wanted clarification. If I went about that in the wrong way I apologize it was not my intent.
I specifically put the word "seem" in bold. You imply you are considering moral order and natural law and I was wrong.
As you suggest it "might" be outside the moral order, until Rome speaks, we can only speculate, and prayerfully discern.
I agree completely. I am just trying to put forth my argument based on my lowly understanding of Church teaching and documents.
As I stated before;
"If my Mother, the Church, does decide that embryo adoption is morally licit I will welcome the decsion and the explanation of why it is moral so I can see where my understanding was incorrect."
Your problem on the understanding of teaching on fertility, is that implantation is post-fertilization, a woman may not be fertile to carry an embryo to term.
As I stated early in the discussion (Jul 24, 2006 10:15:32 PM):
I may be wrong but it is my understanding that ET must take place during a wife's fertile period.
I will go back over the information I read and double check what I read.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

"It does not seem to matter to you that this technique might be outside of the moral order and natural law."
You make a good argument, why do you have to lower yourself to such a misleading and arguably "ad hominem" assertion?
Your problem on the understanding of teaching on fertility, is that implantation is post-fertilization, a woman may not be fertile to carry an embryo to term. If I'm wrong, please prove it.
"with no possibility of their being offered safe means of survival which can be licitly pursued"
Once again, I don't know the details of why the Church has not clarified that this would or would not apply to embyro adoption. The fact that they have not implies that they are still studying the issue.
Your arguments have caused me to lean in the direction of illicit, and would discourage a couple from pursuing this, however, you are not the magisterium, nor am I. As you suggest it "might" be outside the moral order, until Rome speaks, we can only speculate, and prayerfully discern.

Inocencio,
I am short on time and can not read any of the documents you provide links to or this whole combox, but I have read some of your comments and it's begining to look to me like implantation is not within the options envisioned by the Church. Whether it is because those resposible for the documents did not think of this option or whether they deemed it immoral I don't know. Certainly you seem to have settled the matter of whether to leave the embryos frozen or not.
However, since the Church still seems not to have made any definitive judgement on this embryonic adoption I would not condemn those whose conscience and generosity compel them to save lives in this way. Of course all the good in the world can not justify doing any evil, so if someone believes that there is some intrinsic evil in this or if the Church determines that there is, then it can not be done no matter how many lives it saves.

Hey Inocencio, one more thing before I quit for the night too. I just want to be clear about the contours of what you're saying here. In your reading of things, does a couple who goes through the IVF process actually commit three sins: (1) (possibly husband only) providing the gametes, (2) conceiving the child, and (3) impregnating the wife? If so, does this mean that between steps (2) and (3) the only morally licit route is to allow their children to die rather than implanting them?

Inocencio,
That's one of the really thorny things about this issue-- you can look at any proposed way of dealing with it, and find plenty of Church documents that make it seem very problematic. Thawing the embryos is awfully close to killing them-- and one real danger is that if the Church says that thawing the embryos is the only moral option, then lots of couples will think that it's okay if they actually INTEND that their frozen IVF babies die-- which amounts to murder! Of course, that doesn't bear on the rightness or wrongness of your moral stand here, it just means that as a policy matter its articulation by the Church would be dreadfully tricky.

James Stroud,
I welcome your input to the discussion. When you have a chance please read the thread. If I have misquoted or misunderstood any of the documents that I linked to please point it out. Or if I have been inconsistent in my reasoning please show me where, so I can go back and reconsider what I have written.
My main questions is how is it morally licit for a wife to use her fertility to become pregnant outside of the conjugal union of her husband?
I have to leave now but will try to check back later tonight or tomorrow morning.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Where to begin on such a topic. I browsed through alot of the responses but I think I want to tackle just the last one by Inocencio. You suggested that these frozen embryos "should be thawed so they may die naturally...." The only way I know of in which a embryo may die naturally is in the womb through some form of miscarriage or spontaneous abortion. I don't see how you can suggest to let these frozen embryos die a natural death. You provide a harsh suggestion indeed, and even a mortally sinful action. You would suggest the deliberate killing of innocent lives of frozen embryos? Talk about a continuation of the murder of the innocent. How is this murder? Well the process of thawing is the direct and primary cause of death. There would be no naturalness to the death.
Forgive my harshness on the subject, but I do not see how murdering them would be helpful. Talk about sending a message to the world that the Catholic Church does not care for these lives and that we support a culture of death.
Let's review Donum Vitae on this subject: DV I.1 - "Thus the fruit of human generation, from the first moment of its existence, that is to say from the moment the zygote has formed, demands the unconditional respect that is morally due to the human being in his bodily and spiritual reality. The human being is to be respected and treated as a person from the moment of conception; and therefore from that same moment his rights as a person must be recognized, among which in the first place is the inviolable right of every innocent human being to life."
So, my question to Inocencio is: How does your proposal to let these frozen embryos thaw and die respect the "inviolable right of every innocent human being to life"? I don't see how it does. Maybe my logic is faulty this late in the day, but I think this sufficiently raises a substantial alarm concerning your proposal of murder. We must respect these human lives and their right to life. So how best can we accomplish this?
I am open to a certain case-scenario in which I would allow frozen embryos to be rescued. First, I would want an infertile married couple who cannot conceive a child naturally. Second, I would want that married couple to take serious deliberations concerning the nature of rescuing and adopting this new life and what it would mean. Third, I believe such an effort should be made anonymously as best as possible with no media coverage and attention.
Even in my case-scenario, which, granted, is a scenario I find compelling and under a certain moral description quite moving, I have one main objection: trying to conceive a child through IVF requires the use of several embryos in the womb to raise the successfully the implantation rate. Would it be possible to implant one embryo successfully without the use of other embryos? Will the couple be open to multiple children, if that be the case? Would are the implications of the deaths of these embryos in which none of them are successfully implanted?
Questions...Questions...Questions..... While I hesitate to condone such actions to rescue/adopt these frozen human lives, I am open to possibilities within certain restrictions. We tread on fragile ground when dealing with these innocent human lives and we should try to come up with a solution which respects their dignity and promotes a culture of life through good actions.

As I noted above, none of the answers here are real palatable.

francis 03,
"So do you think it's better to thaw them or keep them frozen? Is either of those options morally licit in your book?"
Since DV 1:6 states it is wrong to freeze these tiny human beings even to preserve their life and that freezing them places them in a situation where further offenses and manipulation are possible:
"The freezing of embryos, even when carried out in order to preserve the life of an embryo - cryopreservation - constitutes an offence against the respect due to human beings by exposing them to grave risks of death or harm to their physical integrity and depriving them, at least temporarily, of maternal shelter and gestation, thus placing them in a situation in which further offences and manipulation are possible."
I would say, hard as it is and harsh as it may sound, they should be thawed so they may die naturally since there is no morally licit means of survival for them. I wish I had a better answer, I don't.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Mike-- sorry for the delay, work-- but your reply is the moral dif between IVF and adopting another's child.
The wrong has already happened. The kid is alive and his parents are either unwilling or unable to nurture him-- even the most basic level, by the woman being pregnant.
What is the moral difference between adopting a born kid and adopting an unborn kid? (Born kids can come about by all sorts of horrible sins too, you'll note.)

So for those of you who are convinced that adoption is illicit (which I agree makes some intuitive sense), which of those alternatives do you prefer?
As I listed above, there is precedent in the Catholic Church's teaching that sometimes we have no choice but to indirectly let an innocent die. I don't know that the Church has or will have a happy solution. But it's not like the Church created the problem.
In one of my favorite books, The Ratzinger Report, then-Cardinal Ratzinger lamented society's separation of sex and motherhood, which according to the principles of natural law are intriniscally connected. This is manifested fully and purely in the sacramental union of matrimony.
Is violation of Natural Law always sinful? For example, rape, adultery, and fornication are grave violations of natural law, and great sins as well. If pregnancy results from any of these, it would be another violation of natural law and an even graver sin for the mother to abort the child.
Going forward from the initial moment of conception, the mother and father are still obligated to follow natural law. In these cases, the correct course of action would be to carry the child to term.
In the case of embryonic adoption, once the moment of conception has occured, are we still obligated to follow natural law? Any mother who becomes pregnant, in whatever way (IVF, natural, embryo adoption) is obligated to then attempt to carry the child to term. This is not the question. To me, the artificial insertion of an embryo represents another violation against the natural law. Is it therefore sinful?
Furthermore, to equate this to already born adoption, then shouldn't this mean that anyone who can adopt a born child can also adopt an embryo? Does this mean that the kindhearted single lady at my parish who adopted two Russian orphans can licitly become pregnant by this method?
What about the woman who cannot carry a child to term? Can her 62-year-old mother carry an adopted embryo as a surrogate? If embryo donation is licit because it's "the same as adoption," then is there anything wrong with the above two scenarios?

[Sorry about all the double-posting.]
I read the flyer now. I'm afraid, though, that I'm still not clear on whether you necessarily must kill an embryo to establish a stem-cell line. I see that that's the way scientists are doing it now, and that's terrible. I don't see that that's the only way to do it.
I guess part of the problem here is a lack of scientific (and perhaps spiritual) knowledge: when does an embryo die? We know that a more fully-developed human can die even though many or most of the cells in his or her body are still processing biological functions; i.e. are "alive." Is this true of an embryo as well, given that the embryo doesn't have more than, what, a few to several dozen cells?

So do you think it's better to thaw them or keep them frozen? Is either of those options morally licit in your book?

francis 03,
So for those of you who are convinced that adoption is illicit (which I agree makes some intuitive sense), which of those alternatives do you prefer?
I still think that at this time, without further guidance, there aren't any morally licit ways to offer these tiny human beings a safe means of survival.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Sorry the link did not work. But you can read the flyer from the first link.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

francis 03,
Did you read the pdf flyer that is linked to on the USCCB page?
Why is the Church opposed to stem cell research using the embryo?
Because harvesting these stem cells kills the living human embryo. The Church opposes the direct destruction of innocent human life for any purpose, including research.
"Stem Cell Research and Human Cloning: Questions and Answers"
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Matt McDonald,
"If the Church had envisioned adoption and rejected it in DV, then it would be a simple matter of pointing that out."
What does "with no possibility of their being offered safe means of survival which can be licitly pursued" mean to you? Does it mean that because the term embryo adoption is not used it is ok, even though the technique that would be used is known?
Again, I would like to understand your argument from Church teaching. I would be very interested if you could show me from Donum Vitae, Humanae Vitae, Casti Connubii or the CCC where I have gone wrong in my understanding fertility only be used for the conjugal union of husband and wife.
It does not seem to matter to you that this technique might be outside of the moral order and natural law.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

I meant "damned if you DO; damned if you don't"

Inocencio,
I feel like this has been a very good exchange, and I appreciate having seen the stuff you've brought to light here. I'm not completely convinced by your last link, since it was to essentially an advertisement, and even the ad only said that embryonic stem-cell research INVOLVES killing; not that it REQUIRES it.
Perhaps this is a kind of closing question for those of you who feel embryo adoption is immoral: is the Church just saying here basically that doing anything (or even doing nothing) with these embryos is immoral? A big part of my hesitant acceptance of adoption is that it seems less morally repugnant to me than the only other options-- thawing/death or freezing indefinitely. So for those of you who are convinced that adoption is illicit (which I agree makes some intuitive sense), which of those alternatives do you prefer? Or do you feeling that all are sinful? But is that possible, that those responsible for frozen embryos are almost literally in a "damned if you; damned if you don't" situation?

"It starts to seems as if we accept the rule that anything that is possible should be done."
That's blatantly obvious, but who here is saying that anything possible should be done?
If the Church had envisioned adoption and rejected it in DV, then it would be a simple matter of pointing that out. Since the magisterium has not done so, it seems to me that they don't consider it a settled matter.
There is much today that is not explicitly evil, but due to a combination of factors makes the use of them under most circumstances to be immoral. A great example would be vaccines derived from aborted babies. The Church has said that their development was gravely evil, that their use should be avoided if possible, but if the parents prayerfully discern that the cost of avoiding their use is too great they may be allowed.
Abuse of annulment has nothing to do with this discussion, why introduce it?

To Whom it may concern,
Please understand I am trying to convince myself of what God has intended, allows and has communicated through His Bride the Church regarding these tiny human beings.
I am looking for an objectively moral approach to what should be done now that they have been immorally conceived.
I am open to any argument that shows how God's moral order and natural laws are respected. If my Mother, the Church, does decide that embryo adoption is morally licit I will welcome the decsion and the explanation of why it is moral so I can see where my understanding was incorrect.
I think this issue does need to be discussed at great length and I am very glad Jimmy has blogged about it.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

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