Hi all,
Pl read my postings at Triond.com, where I have expressed my views of some books of the Old Testament. Read them, and I challenge everyone to refute my views as intellectually and objectively (not with blind faith or dead brains) as possible. If you are truly searching for the true Supreme God, read them!
http://www.relijournal.com/Religion/The-Bible-Abou...

Some Day | Apr 29, 2007 5:12:02 PM, where do blue-green algae fit into your six planes of creation? If minerals were created by God, how do you account for the strong empirical evidence that, for instance, mineral oils, coal seams, and much sedimentary rock is of animal or plant origin?

The worst thing Lovecraft has going for him is the poverty of his "pulp" style. His ideas (which are intended as escapist fiction) are okayish, but I can see why people who really believe in demons, angels and whatnot might find it problematic.
Van Daniken and the like came up with some imaginative interpretations of prehistoric artifacts, folk stories, creation myths and the like. While stimulating enough to sell books and persuade young people, they lack plausibility and compelling evidence and tend to conflict with more mundane interpretations for which strong evidence is readily available.

I have written a series of articles looking at the 'ancient astronaut' theory from a layman's perspective. Erich's problem was that he became stuck in explanations he wasn't qualified to theorize on. I prefer to look at the whole picture, combining science, religion and history. If seen from there, all sides begin to make sense.
http://www.whatnots.cc/ac_articles.html#layman

The last one maybe.
It really is a waste of time trying to teach a person obviously so deep into stupidities like UFOs.

Some Day, you appear to be arguing with yourself.

But why waste my time convicing a pig not to roll in mud?

God's powers are limitless.
But there are only 6 planes of the Creation:
1.Graces
2.Angels
3.Humans
4.Animals
5.Plants
6.Minerals
Out of the 6 only 2 have intelligence outside of God. The only two that are rational.
And that is Angels and Humans.
There are not humans in other planets.
Angels on the other hand, can be anywhere they please.
Demons are angels. Demons therefore can manipulate matter as they please (unless God stops them as He usually does)and can make themselves appear as aliens in their mission to damn the whole world.
Any bishop can say whatever He pleases and can do as he pleases too.
He can be a heretic, murderer, satanist or even conspire to kill Our Lord as Judas did.
Not to imply that this bishop does so, but citing a bishop does little to help your arguement.

And to quote from http://www.drboylan.com/balducci2.html
Another Vatican-sanctioned spokesperson, a Harvard and MIT-trained Ph.D, Jesuit Brother Guy Consolmagno, an expert astronomer at the Vatican Observatory atop Mount Graham, Arizona, has spoken up. In the current (April, 2006) edition of Harper's Magazine, Consolmagno writes, "There are, unquestionably, nonhuman intelligent beings in the Bible", and gives numerous citations. He also quotes Jesus as saying, "I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold."
Perhaps the Vatican astronomer's boldest statement is, "And perhaps it's not so far-fetched to see the Second Person of the Trinity not only as the Son of Man but also as a Child of other races ."
He goes on to ask, "Any creature of this universe, created and loved by the same God who created and loves us, ...Would they deserve to be called alien?"
He reminds his readers that God is "Bigger than whatever parallel universes may or may not exist beyond our own." And that God is "able to concentrate His entire effort, energy and love on each one of us tiny individuals on this tiny planet. And, I have confidence, on any other individuals on any other planet as well."

Monsignor Corrado Balducci has said, "As God's power is limitless, it is not only possible but also likely that inhabited planets exist." He has stressed that extraterrestrial encounters "are NOT demonic, they are NOT due to psychological impairment, they are NOT a case of entity attachment, but these encounters deserve to be studied carefully."
http://www.ufoindia.org/article_monsignor.htm
http://www.ufodigest.com/balducci.html
http://www.edicolaweb.net/nonsoloufo/baldu01e.htm

All the gods of the Gentiles are demons.
Forgot what Bible passage it is from.

And about ancient cultures with alien visitors...
The same applies...
Omnes Dii Gentium Sum Damonae...
There is certain knowledge that is very occult in the old pagans, and is conserved (as said by many saints and blessed) by the "secret forces".
Namely masons and such...

Aliens don't exist.
But Demons do.
You know when they say that alien ships leave residue of an unknown element, remember that angels have a dominion on matter.
Imagine the world when chastisements start, some "aliens" come and offer you a better world, just that you have to leave and abandon God and that sort of stuff.
They'll take you to another world alright.
To Hell.

Are Catholics allowed to believe in UFO(s) and/or Extraterrestrial life?
Is there official teaching?
Does it affect the issue of the incarnation? and redemption?
Are there other implications?

Ah, an intellectual!

This is a very interesting question. The issue of the Hindu scripture being prophetic of future science or viewing ancient civilizations with greater technology or UFOs in battle is important and interesting.

Jimmy likes science fiction but there is some possibility to a reality of extra-terrestrial life. There is not a good discussion from the other side or a Catholic perspective.

You are not saying here that Jimmy Akin is an alien? are you?

There is no proof of "ancient astronauts". Even if there is a theoretical possibility of life from other planets.

Some people believe earth has already been visited by extraterrestrial beings. They point to sightings of unidentified flying objects (UFOs) as supposed proof. "Recent polls show that approximately 57 percent of the public believes that UFOs are 'something real' as opposed to 'just people's imagination' ..." (Ben Zuckerman and Michael H. Hart, Extraterrestrials: Where Are They?, Cambridge University Press, New York, 1995, p. 20).
One major American newsweekly reported that "48 percent of Americans believe UFOs are real and 29 percent think we've made contact with aliens" (Newsweek, July 8, 1996).
UFO sighters frequently report seeing objects "typically described as a metallic flying disc, sometimes with protuberances or portholes, executing elaborate manoeuvres and occasionally accompanied by an eerie glow of bright lights. The descriptions have all the hallmarks of high tech aviation" (Paul Davies, Are We Alone?, Basic Books, New York, 1995, p. 132).
In spite of such accounts, "very few scientists regard such reports as evidence for the existence of extraterrestrial beings" (ibid., p. 135).
Even author and astronomer Frank Drake, who is firmly convicted of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence, discounts UFOs as being a manifestation of such. "No tangible evidence exists to suggest that we have ever been visited by an alien spacecraft. As strongly as I believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe, I maintain that UFOs are not extraterrestrial visitors. They are the products of intelligent life on this planet" (Frank Drake and Dava Sobel, Is Anyone Out There?, Delacorte Press, New York, 1992, p. 126).
Supposed proof demonstrating that UFOs have visited earth is disputed and debated. The evidence consists primarily of the eyewitness accounts of those claiming to have seen them. Some believe that these accounts should be accepted just as much as scientific findings reported by astronomers, noting that some of the discoveries of astronomy are not supported by in-hand physical evidence, either. For example, astronomers cannot see planets orbiting other stars simply because the light from those stars is too bright. Instead, they deduce the planets' existence from variations in the stars' motion caused by the gravitational force of the planets.
Still, there is a difference between the evidence offered to back claims of astronomers and those of UFO proponents. "... Although astronomy is based upon observation rather than physical artifacts, at least it involves easily repeatable physical observations, something that UFO studies cannot provide" (Charles F. Emmons, At the Threshold, Wild Flower Press, Mill Spring, North Carolina, 1997, p. 142). Indeed, some supposed evidence of UFO activity has been revealed as simple hoaxes.
Whether the evidence for UFOs is credible or not, there certainly is a high frequency of reported sightings. Popular television programs like The X-Files and movies like Independence Day and Contact are apt to encourage the trend. Yet for all the excitement no alien-dead or alive-has been produced. No demonstrably authentic artifacts of alien cultures are known to exist.
The skepticism of the scientific community toward UFOs does not sit well with UFO believers. Says one such believer, "People like Carl Sagan [and] Stephen Hawking ... are mouthpieces for the old way of thinking" (Newsweek, July 8, 1996, p. 50). Yet, as the late Carl Sagan, Cornell University astronomer, put it, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" (ibid.).
Physicist Paul Davies sees the interest in aliens as part of a religious quest. "... The belief in super-advanced aliens ... can provide some measure of comfort and inspiration for people whose lives may otherwise appear to be boring and futile" (Are We Alone?, p. 136).
If we are searching for alien cultures to find religious inspiration, we will be disappointed. When we look to any source other than the living God for spiritual guidance, we commit the same error which the prophet Jeremiah described in his time: "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, and hewn themselves cisterns-broken cisterns that can hold no water" (Jeremiah 2:13). GN

First of all, the Sages discuss that animals also feel pain, based on the Biblical prohibition against causing them undue suffering.
Secondly, there are plenty of accounts in the Torah of the higher angels, who are conscious of a realm of reality far beyond ours.
Thirdly, Maimonides and others write about the heavenly bodies as conscious beings -- and not simply in an allegorical sense. If anyone should ask, "How can a ball of helium and hydrogen contain consciousness?" simply ask in return, "And that a warm mass of gray meat has consciousness is reasonable?"
The uniqueness of humankind is not our consciousness, but the way that consciousness is able to enter the realms of good and evil, make decisions and distinguish between them.
What does Jewish tradition say about life in outer space?
The Lubavitcher Rebbe pointed out that there is support in Torah for the notion that life exists on other planets. Furthermore, we can know something about that life through deduction from what the Torah tells us. Here is his argument:
In the Book of Judges 5:23, Devorah the prophetess sings about the victory of Barak over Sisera. In her song, she says, "Cursed be Meroz! Cursed, cursed be its inhabitants, says the angel of G-d!"
Where is Meroz, and who are its inhabitants? The Talmud gives two explanations, one of them being that Meroz is a star or planet. The heavenly bodies had also come to help the Israelites, as Devorah stated just one verse earlier, "From the heavens they fought, the stars from their orbits..." This star, however, which was the dominant star of Sisera, apparently did not come to their aid. And so, General Barak penalized Meroz -- and its inhabitants.
Are these inhabitants intelligent? Intelligence is defined by Torah to mean the capacity to make decisions with free will. Free will is only possible where there is Torah, whereby the Creator offers His creatures more than one possibility and asks that they make the appropriate choice.
So, if there would be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, those creatures would have to have Torah. Could they have a different Torah than us? This is not possible, since Torah is truth, and there cannot be two truths.
Could they then have the same Torah as us? This also seems impossible, since the Torah itself describes in detail how the Torah was revealed on this planet, and that account itself has a strong impact on how the Torah is to be fulfilled.
It therefore appears that, although it is quite possible there is life on other planets, that life would not be intelligent in a way similar to human life and culture

The discovery of ETs would pose no more of a threat to Judaism than would the discovery of a new species of rabbit.
It would be limiting G-d's power to say that He could not have placed life on other planets. In fact, there is a reference in the biblical Book of Judges (5:23) to an inhabited place called Maroz, which the Talmud identifies as a star.
But Jewish thought has always believed that the most weird and wonderful creatures are to be found right here on earth. We can explore the remotest extremities of space but still remain alien to our own humanity. The real secrets of the universe lie hidden in the depths of the human soul.

Dr. Velvl Greene is a biologist who was enlisted by NASA in their project to determine if there was life on Mars. He asked the Lubavitcher Rebbe privately if this was something he should be doing.
The Rebbe replied, "Dr. Greene, look for life on Mars! And if you don't find it there, look somewhere else in the universe for it. Because for you to sit here and say there is no life outside of planet earth is to put limitations on the Creator, and that is not

www.meaningfullife.com
The current news raging about the strong possibility of life on Mars has provoked discussion in all circles. The religious implications of the prospect of extraterrestrial life are particularly interesting.
But while we ponder this phenomenon and its many ramifications, there arises an intriguing question: Are there any references in ancient wisdoms and sacred texts to life on other planets? Perhaps more importantly: Is the search for extraterrestrial life just an exercise in curiosity, or is it important to our lives as human beings on this Earth?
It may seem surprising, but on one rare occasion the Grand Rebbe of Lubavitch, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a foremost religious authority and visionary of our times, discussed this issue in detail.
The Rebbe was known for both his intense knowledge of Bible and Talmud and his secular scholarship having graduated Berlin University and the Sorbonne with advanced degrees in the sciences. He often addressed timely events and scientific developments, and in his unique style would explain the personal and practical applications of any given issue.
In the summer of 1969, after the second landing on the moon, the Rebbe addressed the topic of extraterrestrial life. Citing his fundamental belief that the Torah -- the Bible -- is the spiritual blueprint of the universe, the Rebbe explained that delving into the Bible can yield allusions or even direct references to scientific discoveries. After all, science, essentially, uncovers the divine secrets of nature that have lain hidden in existence from the beginning of time.
Science, essentially, uncovers the divine secrets of nature that have lain hidden in existence from the beginning of timeIn the case of extraterrestrial life the Bible clearly refers to its possibility, and even to its actuality. In the book of Judges, chapter 5, the prophetess Devora sings a song of praise to God for helping Barak win his battle against his enemy Sisera. In verse 20 she sings: "The stars in their course fought against Sisera." And then in verse 23 she continues: "Curse Meroz, said the angel of the Lord, curse bitterly its inhabitants, because they did not come to the help of the Lord...against the mighty men."
And who is this Meroz? According to one opinion in the Talmud -- the authoritative oral interpretation of the Biblical texts -- Meroz is a planet.1 Accordingly, the "inhabitants" of "Meroz" indicates life on another planet.
The context in which the reference to Meroz is found compels the Talmud to define it as a planet (and not as a neighboring city), as it is preceded by the verse that states "the stars in their course fought against Sisera." Thus, it follows that Meroz refers to a celestial body whose inhabitants did not come to Barak’s aid.
Another issue Rabbi Schneerson addressed was the personal implications should extraterrestrial life be found. In keeping with his message that we must utilize any new discoveries for constructive personal growth, the Rebbe applied this to the search for other life. He predicted that if any extraterrestrial life forms are discovered, they will be life forms other than human. This is based on the Biblical belief that human life, empowered with the ability to choose between good and evil, was bestowed exclusively upon Adam and Eve on Earth. All other creatures follow a "program" inherent in their natural makeup; the laws of nature that (when untouched by human hands) maintain a natural balance. The human race is unique in that it was given free will and given the Torah, God’s word and law, by which to know right from wrong. Indeed, Rabbi Schneerson went on to explain that the human being is the "center" of creation, not necessarily in a spatial sense, but qualitatively: Man has the power to dominate and influence the course of nature, either constructively or destructively. Thus, any discovery of extraterrestrial life only intensifies our responsibility to protect, refine and elevate the entire universe in all its elements -- mineral, vegetable and animal -- and transform them to channels of divine energy by utilizing them for living better and more virtuous lives.

'Free Choice' is relative, of course. A child has free choice to choose to be good or bad in school. An adult has free choice on his direction in life. RaMBaM says that man has the choice to be and do as he chooses, and it is up to him. However, in Chassidic belief it is clear that a *circumstance*- every instant in life- is directly created by G-d. This means that the choice is to choose good or bad, regardless of circumstance.
The Rebbe MH"M has said that if there are creatures in other areas of the universe, they would not be possesing free will. To truly understand this requires much more that can be explained in the 'comment' section, and should be studied in the original Chassidic Texts. (For example, in the end, there will be only good. How then can man be given true free choice, since the result is already present? Etc. These are explained at length in many places in Chassidic Texts.)
I dont know the source or who was involved, but it seems someone who was studying the universe and included in the studies was a drive for finding life etc. He asked the Rebbe if he should continue in this or if it doesnt make sense...? The Rebbe told him that 'How can we put a limit on G-d's abilities? Surely continue in the search...'
Ultimately, only G-d has true free choice (since true free choice involves absolutely no advantage in one option over the other, and this is not present in a created reality...,) however, since a Jew is intrinsically connected with the essence of G-d, therefore he has free choice as well. He is put, at every moment, as G-d's 'body', so to speak, which can either bring about His Will, or the opposite, C'V.
May we merit the complete Geulah, with Moshiach, immediately

Although extra-terrestrials could not possess free will and therefore would not be considered intelligent life, nothing prevents them from appearing intelligent.
Angels and demons are separate beings, different from humans. Yet, they exist and are able to interact intelligently. They do this because they are acting as agents of G-d.
In conclusion, there is no reason that similar circumstances could not pertain to extra-terrestrials.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe pointed out that there is support in Torah for the notion that life exists on other planets. Furthermore, we can know something about that life through deduction from what the Torah tells us. Here is his argument:
In the Book of Judges 5:23, Devorah the prophetess sings about the victory of Barak over Sisera. In her song, she says, "Cursed be Maroz! Cursed, cursed be its inhabitants, says the angel of G-d!"
Where is Maroz, and who are it's inhabitants. The Talmud gives two explanations, one of them being that Maroz is a star or planet. The heavenly bodies had also come to help the Israelites, as Devorah stated just one verse earlier, "From the heavens they fought, the stars from their orbits…". This star, however, which was the dominant star of Sisera, apparently did not come to their aid. And so, General Barak penalized Maroz--and its inhabitants.
Are these inhabitants intelligent? Intelligence is defined by Torah to mean the capacity to make decisions with free will. Free will is only possible where there is Torah, whereby the Creator offers His creatures more than one possibility and asks that they make the appropriate choice.
So, if there would be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, those creatures would have to have Torah. Could they have a different Torah than us? This is not possible, since Torah is truth, and there cannot be two truths.
Could they then have the same Torah as us? This also seems impossible, since the Torah itself describes in detail how the Torah was revealed on this planet, and that account itself has strong impact on how the Torah is to be fulfilled.
It therefore appears that, although it is quite possible that there is life on other planets, however that life would not be intelligent in a way to similar to human life and culture.

A. Firstly, Man has free will--like no other creature has. No dog, dolphin or gorilla has the ability to weigh good and evil and choose one over the other. No dog, dolphin or gorilla understands the concepts of good and evil, for that matter. None except Man. So, the Jewish understanding of reward and punishment begins with the Jewish understandings of free choice, and good and evil.
B. Man has Free Choice. You can choose to do good. You can choose to do evil. You can choose. You can. You. G-d doesn't make you go one way or the other. He doesn't force you to the straight and narrow. He does not pre-program you to be a certain way. Man may do whatever he wants. Man can change whatever he is to become whoever he wants to be. Total freedom.
C. Now, G-d won't rain manna from Heaven on you if you do something He deems good, or zap you with lightning bolts if you do something He deems evil--would you have Free Choice if He did? Not at all--you wouldn't be able to walk down the street for greed of manna, or fear of lightning bolts. You'd become a vegetable. And G-d doesn't want vegetables--He wants Free Choice. So, what's going to happen to you if you eat non-Kosher? Nothing. No lightning bolts. Because if G-d zapped you every time you ate non-kosher, you'd have no choice but to eat kosher. You'd be forced to--unless you like lightning bolts. Now let's take a look at what Judaism does say about reward and punishment.
G-d won't... zap you with lightning bolts if you do something He deems evil--would you have Free Choice if He did?
1. Defining Good, Evil, Reward and Punishment
The Torah is mankind's morality manual. The Torah defines what is good and what is evil. When you do what the Torah says, you're doing good. When you don’t do what the Torah says--or when you do what the Torah says not to--you're doing evil. (But that's only if you're familiar with the Torah, and act spitefully against it--more on that later.) When you do good, you're rewarded, and when you do evil, you're punished. Sounds simple? It's anything but. There's no Reward and Punishment Catalog in Judaism, listing specific sins or good deeds and their specific consequences, and therefore, we don't know which actions elicit which reactions from G-d. Unless you are a prophet--and prophets don't exist today--you cannot conclude that Mr. A's son died because Goldberg ate non-Kosher or that Mrs. B got Lou Gehrig's Disease because she's a crook. Conversely, you cannot conclude that Bill Gates is rich because he's a good person (which is not to say he's evil!): untold variables known only to G-d come into play in every instance of reward and punishment. Only G-d can truly discern and decide matters of good and evil, and the rewards/punishments attached. We simply just don't know. For starters, we don't know what's truly good, what's truly bad, or who's truly good or bad, for that matter. Thus, suffering is not always punishment, punishment is not always suffering, good is not always a reward, and evil is not always punishment. Only G-d can tell.
2. Isn't the Torah All About Reward and Punishment?

De-evolution of the Human -
A Mystical View on Primates
Q: My question concerns the de evolution of the human to the level of primate. Can you explain if this occurred in concert with the y'reidah of Adam Harishon, his progeny or others? Will the ape receive a tikkun ("rectification") at the time of Mashiach and if so will it be as high as the tikkun of man? Thank you for any insight that you have time to impart on this fascinating topic.
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A: The Midrash as well as Rishonim and Acharonim teach that after the sin of Adam Harishon ("Adam"), and especially after the sin of Cain (Kayin), the progeny of Kayin degenerated into apes. Kabbalah teaches us that every rectification of the soul of Kayin is the rectification of the potential monkey.
According to the Arizal, the two basic soul roots of the human race are Kayin and Abel. The rectification of all the soul roots in the human race who are the spiritual descendants, although not necessarily the physical descendants, of Kayin, is the rectification of the ape. The soul root of Kayin is generally the left. The soul root of Abel is generally the right. All the souls who derive from the left are Kayin, ape-potential souls. There are also great tzadikim (righteous ones) whose soul root is Kayin. Through their Divine service and spiritual rectification comes the rectification of the ape.
The word "Kayin" itself begins with the letter kuf, the nineteenth letter of the Hebrew alphabet, which also means kof ("ape"). The meaning of the word kof is "imitation", particularly a false or degenerate form of imitation. The English word "copy" derives from the Hebrew kof. There is also the English idiom, "Monkey see, monkey do," which again suggests imitation.
Our Sages also use the idiom kof bifnei adam, "like a monkey in the face of man," in reference to a person who unsuccessfully attempts to imitate something. This is a relative concept. There are many other examples where we find that even great people, relative to previous, greater people (in a certain respect), are referred to as kof bifnei adam. The beauty of our matriarch, Sarah, who was the greatest of all the tzadikot in the Torah, is referred to as kof bifnei adam in relation to the beauty of Eve, prior to the sin of Adam and Eve. So we see that an integral part of history is the degenerative process of abstract "man" and "ape."
Numerically, "man", adam is 45, which is the triangle of 9. It is the sum of all numbers from 1 to 9. If kof, which equals 186, is added to adam (45), we receive 231 (RLA), which is the triangle of 21. This is a most important number in Kabbalah. It is the number of pairs of two letters with which G-d created the world. It is called the RLA Shearim in Sefer Yetzirah. This means that kof is actually the sum of all numbers from 10 to 21. Since adam is 1 to 9, together it is 1 to 21. This sum of all numbers from 1, alef (of adam), until 21, which is G-d's Name Ekyeh, I shall be that which I shall be", equals 231. Thus, the two words, "man" (adam) and "ape" (kof) form an intrinsic, integral union. This means that the words, adam and kof are meant to be combined. By their unification the kof receives some level of elevation to become integrated back to his origin, which is man.
The Arizal teaches that between every two levels of reality there is always an intermediate level. He explicitly states that the intermediate level between man and animal is monkey. There are two sides to every intermediate. In the case of the ape as intermediary, one side relates to the "man" aspect, and the other side relates to the "animal" aspect. It is as if the two arms of the ape are actually holding on to the man and animal.
An intermediate is meant to unite. The ape has inner power to unite mankind and the animal kingdom. In the service of G-d we must learn that just as a lower level of reality often tries to imitate a higher level, often unsuccessfully, as in kof bifnei adam, so man is instructed to imitate all the positive natural attributes that G-d created in each of the animals. In Pirkei Avot it says that we have to be as bold as a tiger, etc. to do the will of our Father in heaven. As the verse says (Job 35:11), malfeinu mibahamot aretz ("He teaches us from the animals of the earth"). The ape, as intermediate between man and animal, gives insight to man as to how to adopt the positive attributes of all the animals in his service of the Divine.
The letter kuf also means hekeif, or makeef, "surrounding, all encompassing light." The word adam represents yosher, "straightness," as the verse states: "G-d made man straight." Thus, one of the relationships between man and ape in the terminology of Kabbalah is between yosher, "straightness," and igulim, "circles," the "surrounding lights." At lower levels of reality, the "surrounding lights" are natural levels of manifestation. "Nature," teva, comes from the word taba'at, a "ring" or "circle." In its origin, the "surrounding light" comes from the or ein sof hasovev kol almin, "the infinite light that surrounds all worlds." This is the light that exists before the initial contraction at the beginning of the creative process, and the light that still remains as the omnipresence of G-d without any distinction between higher and lower levels. This is the ultimate and absolute continuum of G-d's omnipresence throughout all reality.
Another meaning of the word makeef is "to touch." In many places in the Mishnah, hakafah is used to mean "two things that touch one another." With regard to the five physical senses, the monkey represents the sense of touch. Kabbalah explains that this is the sense that most reflects its origin in the back lobe of the brain. In a sense, it is an imitation, the achor, "posterior" side of man. The elevation of the ape is the elevation of the physical sense of touch.
The verse Chochmat adam tair panav, "the wisdom of man enlightens his face," points to the relation between man and face, or the anterior part of his body. The senses of sight, sound, smell and taste all appear in the face. The posterior side is the ape, the sense of touch, from the word hakafah.
Monkeys like to jump from branch to branch. This is an expression of the sense of touch. This also relates to the monkey's role as an intermediate between man and animal. The jumping from branch to branch represents the union of separate items.
In Aramaic, the word kof means kofa d'machta, which is the "eye of the needle." There is a very important saying by our Sages that when a person dreams he sees things that cannot exist in reality as we know it. There are certain things, however, that are so removed from reality that even in a dream one does not imagine them. The example that our Sages use for that phenomenon is peela daiyil b'kofa d'machta, "seeing an elephant go through the eye of a needle." In the future, when Mashiach comes, we will perceive this experience of infinite greatness entering every point of finite reality. This is called hamshachat koach ha'bli gvul b'gvul.
The song of the elephant in Perek Shirah is Gadol Havayah umehulal me'od, "G-d is [infinitely] great and infinitely praiseworthy." This is what the elephant suggests to the soul of man. The elephant entering into the eye of the needle is like the elephant metamorphosing into a monkey. This is indeed the elevation of the greatest creature in the animal kingdom. By entering into the kofa d'machta, the eye of the needle, which is the same word as "monkey," the elephant reveals to the observer the infinite greatness of G-d entering into every point of finite reality. Thus, the elevation of the letter kuf is the manifestation of the infinite entering the finite.
In Kabbalah, the letter kuf often represents klipa, a "foreign shell," which is one of the basic symbols for evil in the Torah and Kabbalah. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the kuf also represents kedusha, "sanctity," which is total separation from finite, mundane reality. The Gemarah states that the letter kuf represents kedusha, as in kadosh, kadosh, kadosh. These three consecutive kuf's represent the three stages of elevation of the "Primordial Ape."
The letter kuf is the twelfth of the twelve simple letters of the alef beit. It corresponds to the month of Adar, the festival of Purim, which suggests Ad d'lo yada. All of the points discussed above relate to ad d'lo yada. On the surface, when a person becomes drunk, he "degenerates" from a human figure to an animal figure, especially to a copying, monkey mannerism. This is why people also dress up as clowns on Purim.
Every month and every letter has a sense. The sense of the letter kuf is laughter. This is also the sense of the month of Adar. The elevation of the ape is the elevation of laughter. According to our Sages (in the Talmud) and Sefer Yetzirah, laughter originates in the spleen. This is why the letter kuf corresponds in the body of man to the spleen, the controlling organ of laughter. An ape causes one to laugh. Laughter is an existential leap to a higher level of consciousness.
You might want to see Sefer Habrit. Very interesting discussions based on the science that was known about 200 years ago appear there. Wishing you much success in your further studies.

Check out:
www.chabad.org
Our sages including the last Rebbe allows for EXTRATERRESTIAL LIFE!!!!!
Christianity because of your incarnation and the incorrect Biblical interpretations and Ptolemaic worldview skews the reality of this at least possibility and the avoidance and even anti-scientific attitudes througout history (just ask Galileo or scientist even today)
The Kabbalah speaks of myriads of worlds both physical and spiritual (many mathematicians explain this through different dimensions or views of reality remember the two dimensional theoretical entities?)

Are there any celebrations on Friday to watch the 200th episode of Stargate sg1?

Belief in extraterrestrial life may have been present in ancient Egypt, Babylon, and Sumer, although in these societies, cosmology was fundamentally supernatural and the notion of aliens is difficult to distinguish from that of gods, demons, and such. The first important Western thinkers to argue systematically for a universe full of other planets and, therefore, possible extraterrestrial life were the ancient Greek writers Thales and his student Anaximander in the 7th and 6th centuries B.C. The atomists of Greece took up the idea, arguing that an infinite universe ought to have an infinity of populated worlds. Ancient Greek cosmology worked against the idea of extraterrestrial life in one critical respect, however: the geocentric universe, championed by Aristotle and codified by Ptolemy, privileged the Earth and Earth-life (Aristotle denied there could be a plurality of worlds) and seemingly rendered extraterrestrial life impossible.
Giordano Bruno, De l'Infinito, Univirso e Mondi, 1584Ancient Jewish sources also considered extraterrestrial life. The Talmud states that there are at least 18,000 other worlds, but provides little elaboration on the nature of the worlds and on whether they are physical or spiritual. Based on this, however, the medieval exposition "Sefer HaB'rit" posits that extraterrestrial creatures exist but that they have no free will (and are thus equivalent to animal life). It adds that human beings should not expect creatures from another world to resemble earthly life, any more than sea creatures resemble land animals. [2] [3]
Within Islam, the statement of the Qur'an "All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds" indicates multiple universal bodies that may indicate extraterrestrial life.
When Christianity spread throughout the West, the Ptolemaic system became dogma, and although the Church never issued any formal pronouncement on the question of alien life [4] at least tacitly the idea was heretical. In 1277 the Bishop of Paris, Étienne Tempier, did overturn Aristotle on one point: God could have created more than one world (given His omnipotence) yet we know by revelation He only made one. Taking a further step and arguing that aliens actually existed remained rare.
This situation changed, however, with the dramatic shift in thinking initiated by the invention of the telescope and the Copernican assault on geocentric cosmology. Once it became clear that the Earth was merely one planet amongst countless bodies in the universe the extraterrestrial idea moved towards the scientific mainstream. God's omnipotence, it could be argued, not only allowed for other worlds and other life, on some level it necessitated them. The best known early-modern proponent of such ideas was Giordano Bruno, who argued in the 16th century for an infinite universe in which every star is surrounded by its own solar system; he was eventually burned at the stake for heretical ideas. In the early 17th century the Czech astronomer Anton Maria Schyrleus of Rheita mused that "if Jupiter has…inhabitants…they must be larger and more beautiful than the inhabitants of the Earth, in proportion to the [size] of the two spheres."[5]
Such comparisons also appeared in poetry of the era. In "The Creation: a Philosophical Poem in Seven Books" (1712) Sir Richard Blackmore observed: "We may pronounce each orb sustains a race / Of living things adapted to the place". The didactic poet Henry More took up the classical theme of the Greek Democritus in "Democritus Platonissans, or an Essay Upon the Infinity of Worlds" (1647). With the new relative viewpoint that the Copernican revolution had wrought, he suggested "our world's sunne / Becomes a starre elsewhere." Fontanelle's "Conversations on the Plurality of Worlds" (translated into English in 1686) offered similar excursions on the possibility of extraterrestrial life, expanding rather than denying the creative sphere of a Maker.
The possibility of Extraterrestrials remained a widespread speculation as scientific discovery accelerated. William Herschel, the discoverer of Uranus, was one of many 18th-19th century astronomers convinced that our Solar System, and perhaps others, would be well populated by alien life. Other luminaries of the period who championed "cosmic pluralism" included Immanuel Kant and Benjamin Franklin. At the height of the Enlightenment even the Sun and Moon were considered candidates for hosting aliens.

2. The popularity of von Daniken may have been related to the strong desire of baby boomers to believe their ancestors were complete idiots.
That, couple with their fears of nuclear annihilation, conspiracy theories, "don't trust anyone over 30", and the realization that they would not be THE generation to fix the world's problems - all this led to a "we can't fix it - we need a savior" attitude. This took 2 forms: "Late, Great Planet Earth" for Christians, and alien/UFO-watching for non-believers.
Fortunately for us, God has delayed his return (so more may be saved). Unfortunately, not only have these kook theories remained as well, but they have "matured" - i.e., been proofread, debugged, and replaced disproven/discredited items with newer twists that are not yet disproved/discredited.
Good luck, sky-watchers. I'm going to continue to pray to the God I know exists, rather than keep looking and hoping for aliens which may not exist.

Poke a crank, get a screed.
re: the Piri Reis map. It is a map of the East coast of South America, bent in the middle to fit onto the parchment. Even a superficial look at it will reveal that to the untrained eye.
take a look

I start getting nervous when some of the comments are longer than the original post. Lovecraft would be amused. Just two quick comments: 1. I can't resist anyone who can use a word like batrachian and get away with it. and 2. The popularity of von Daniken may have been related to the strong desire of baby boomers to believe their ancestors were complete idiots.

As jimmyakin.org turns into alt.fan.john-winston....
There is a bit in Doctor Who about this. At least in the novelization of the 1973 serial "Invasion of the Dinosaurs", the Doctor references Ezekiel.

I'm with you, Cajun Nick. Just blew past the long posts.

in my youth I thought Erik Von D. was pretty thought intensive.
I reread some of it about a year ago however, and thought what a pile of disconnected crock that doesnt even pass a smell test.

I agree with Cajun Nick...it is much more effective to make your posts short and to the point...When I'm in the mood for a novel I'll get Dickens off the shelf...

Just a note to folks who may be new to the blog that it operates under Da Rulz.
One of these is Rule 3, which states:
3. Also because of the format restrictions, everyone must be concise. Don't go on at length about things. Pasting large amounts of text into the combox also counts as going on at length. Going on at length constitutes rudeness.

We've had a couple of posts lately where people were violating this--I think simply because they're new to the site and weren't aware of Rule 3--so I wanted to post a general reminder rather than just starting to delete overly long comments.
Thanks for your cooperation!

Note to Namd Kapoor, Vimanis, and Piri Reis:
I don't know what your posts said. They were WAAAY too long to even begin reading. So, any points you were trying to raise didn't have any effect on me (nor, I would venture to guess, on most other readers.)

Jimmy Akin is an alien.
Aliens created Mormonism and their god is the same as the Egyptians.

JIMMY, that alien is UGLY
I hope that it is not my daddy or mommy
didn't create me and will not eat me
does that make me insensitive?
The movie B level PREDATOR vs. ALIEN
or was it ALIEN vs. PREDATOR
actually has this theory in it
action is OK, pretty weak though
that the ALIENS (like Sigourney Weaver type)
try to eat and breed through us
and the PREDATORS fight them for sport
that "We" (that is you humans white man)
worshipped them and they helped us build the Aztec and Mayan like temples and there is a huge temple in the North Pole or maybe it is the South
some good graphics
BUT JUST A MOVIE
I think ET life may be theoretically possible
BUT until I see proof it really doesn't affect my life nor faith
there are some interesting theoretical theological possibilities (Jesus as savior of the Universe or one species)(souls of ET life)
(proof of a "higher" race and the implications to our worldview)(what that ET life proves: reincarnation, psychic powers, evolution, myths)--BUT IT ALL SEEMS UNPROVEN with NO NO NO Scientific evidence

Jay E. Adrian,
LOL!!!
LOL!!!

Boy this sure brought the crazies out of the woodwork! Jimmy, I think you need word limits on these posts.

Holy cow. Is "longest average length of comments, in words, for a blog post" a Guinness World Records category?

This thread needs a few more Hugh Jass posts.

look a little deeper and look into science
try
skepdic.com
The Piri Reis Map
Steven Dutch, Natural and Applied Sciences, University of Wisconsin - Green Bay
First-time Visitors: Please visit Site Map and Disclaimer. Use "Back" to return here.
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A Note to Visitors
I will respond to questions and comments as time permits, but if you want to take issue with any position expressed here, you first have to answer this question:
What evidence would it take to prove your beliefs wrong?
I simply will not reply to challenges that do not address this question. Refutability is one of the classic determinants of whether a theory can be called scientific. Moreover, I have found it to be a great general-purpose cut-through-the-crap question to determine whether somebody is interested in serious intellectual inquiry or just playing mind games. Note, by the way, that I am assuming the burden of proof here - all you have to do is commit to a criterion for testing. It's easy to criticize science for being "closed-minded". Are you open-minded enough to consider whether your ideas might be wrong?
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The Map
The Piri Reis Map, shown below, is the oldest surviving map to show the Americas. It is not European, surprisingly, but Turkish. It bears a date of 919 in the Moslem calendar, corresponding to 1513 in the Western Calendar. It is in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul, a fabulous museum and the locale for a truly awful movie in the late 1960's. (I've been there - the real place bears no resemblance to the place in the movie.) The map was lost for a long time and only rediscovered in the 20th century.
Apart from its great historic interest, the map has been alleged to contain details no European could have known in the 1500's, and therefore proves the existence of ancient technological civilizations, visits by extraterrestrials, or both.
The map is a portolan chart, a common form at this time. Instead of latitude and longitude grids, compass roses were placed at key points with azimuths radiating from them. That said, the east-west lines through the small rose off South America in the center of the map are a very good approximation to the Equator, both there and with respect to Africa. The small one at the very top of the map is a very good estimate of 45 north where the east-west azimuth hits the coast of France. The two big compass roses in mid-Atlantic are harder to place. They might locate the tropic lines (23-1/2 north and south) or they could represent 22-1/2 latitude (one-fourth of the way from equator to pole). Considering they are a bit closer to 45 degrees than the equator, the tropic lines are the best bet.
Erich von Daniken in Chariots of the Gods? claimed that the map closely resembled an azimuthal projection centered on Cairo.
At left is a real azimuthal projection centered on Cairo. This projection does tilt the Greater Antilles vertical and bring them up even with northern Europe. But it fails to bring South America below the bulge of Africa. And the equator, which is quite precise on the Piri Reis map, is curved.
The straight parallels of latitude show that the map cannot be azimuthal. It has to be a cylindrical projection, probably cylindrical equidistant if anything. A cylindrical equidistant projection has equally spaced parallels of latitude. It was rarely used in pre-computer times (there are better projections that are just as easy to construct) but has become a lot more common recently because it is the easiest projection to plot on a computer. (You just plot latitude and longitude directly without any mathematical alterations.)
The Marginal Notes
The marginal writings on the map are very revealing. Translations are in The Oldest Map of America, by Professor Dr. Afet Inan. Ankara, 1954, pp. 28-34 and available at a number of Web sites. Until 1922 the Turkish language was written with Arabic letters, but the language on the map is Turkish, not Arabic.
Most important is that references to maps of Asia, plus some fragmentary lines south of Africa, indicate that this was originally a world map which was torn in half along the eastern edge. Wouldn't it be marvelous to see the other half?
Most of the bizarre claims made for the Piri Reis Map utterly ignore the marginal notes, which pretty conclusively show the map is entirely 16th century terrestrial in origin.
Cartography of the Piri Reis Map
Below is a tracing of the coastlines on the map. Western Europe and Africa are easily recognizable, the Azores, Canary Islands and Cape Verde Islands are fairly accurate both as to location and the number and arrangements of individual islands. Eastern South America is also easily recognizable, but there are a lot of things not so easily recognized. The map, by the way, is very clear on the existence of mountains in the interior of South America (in brown on the tracing).
Europe
The coastline of France and Iberia is well-drawn. There are four major rivers shown in Iberia, from north to south the Atlantic rivers are the Tagus and Guadalquivir, and the east-flowing rivers are the Ebro (north) and an unknown river in the south (there are several minor rivers it could be).
The rivers are very inaccurately located. The Tagus enters the Atlantic at Lisbon as shown, but does not have a hook in its upper reaches. The Duoro, to the north, does, but it's not shown. It looks very much as if the draftsman confused the two rivers.
By the way, the Spanish syllable guad- that begins so many place names comes from Arabic wadi, valley. Wadi-al-yahara, valley of the flowing water, became Guadalajara, for example.
Africa
The western bulge of Africa is pretty well drawn and the offshore islands are as well (though too large relative to everything else).
There are a couple of small rivers in Morocco that could correspond to the northernmost river. The river emptying at the center of the bulge is the Senegal and the next one south is the Gambia, followed to the south by the Guinea. The two rivers do not join but do approach closely. The south-flowing river is probably the Sassandra in the Ivory Coast.
The welter of lakes and rivers inland do not exist as shown but may reflect some garbled knowledge of the Niger headwaters and its inland delta.
Some people have claimed the map shows the Sahara as it was during the Pleistocene, when it had huge inland lakes. There are several reasons to doubt this:
If the rivers of Iberia, which was occupied by Moslems for 700 years, are inaccurately shown, why should we think the map of Africa is any more accurate?
No amount of flooding the basins of the Sahara could make the Niger top its drainage divide and flow to the Atlantic. It's just too high. In fact, it's the highest land for a thousand miles. You could flood the Sahara enough to put Khartoum on the Atlantic and still leave the Niger drainage divide above water.
Sailors navigating the desert coast of west Africa would be interested in where to find fresh water now, not where it was during the Pleistocene.
North America
North America is frankly a mess on this map. The only voyages to North America by 1513 were voyages to Newfoundland beginning with John Cabot in 1498, and some Spanish sightings of the southeast coast of the U.S. It was only in 1513 that Balboa reached the Pacific and Ponce de Leon discovered people who can't punch ballots correctly in Miami Beach.
The marginal notes refer to some of the islands and coasts north of South America as "Antilia," clearly referring to the Antilles. The lack of good detail is puzzling since there must have been much better maps of the Caribbean by this time. The big triangular island in the far northwest could be Newfoundland. It's close to the right latitude and even pretty much the right shape. Given that the most detailed knowledge of North America was in the north at this time, the big island off the coast is much more likely to be Nova Scotia than one of the Antilles. Supporting this is the fact that a nearby note refers to St. Brendan, an Irish monk who according to tradition sailed far into the North Atlantic in the sixth century. He might conceivably have reached Newfoundland or Nova Scotia but is pretty unlikely to have reached the Antilles.
The mess of North America is important. It's ridiculous to claim, as many people do, that there are ancient or extraterrestrial secrets lurking in this map when something as big as North America is so crudely drawn.
Robert Bywater and Jean-Pierre Lacroix published a very interesting hypothesis in Journal of Spatial Science vol 49 (1); 13-23 (2004) They suggest that the islands off North America might actually be Asia. The dream that the Americas might somehow be joined to Asia died hard, and remember, this map predates Magellan by a decade so nobody really knew how wide the Pacific was. As late as 1634, Jean Nicolet sailed into Green Bay expecting to meet the Chinese. It's worth considering.
Secrets in the map?
It's the other stuff that fascinates people. Among other claims:
The map shows the earth as seen from space
The map shows the subglacial topography of Greenland
The map shows the subglacial topography of Antarctica
The map is aligned with the earth's energy grid (whatever that means)
Here's a map that does show the earth from space as seen from a point that roughly matches the Piri Reis Map (20N, 30W). We can see that any similarity between this map and the Piri Reis Map, apart from what terrestrial navigators knew in the early 1500's, is imaginary.
This projection is called an orthographic projection. Draftsmen of the 1500's would have been perfectly capable of drawing such a map given the geographic coordinates. You do not need to go into space to do it. For one thing, by this time there were globes to use as models.
Below is the Piri Reis Map with modern maps superimposed. We can see that Europe and Africa are pretty good but with lots of inaccuracy in detail. Promontories and bays are exaggerated, a natural enough tendency in a day when navigating by landmark was a matter of life and death. The Azores, Canary Islands and Cape Verde Islands are accurately located but again, exaggerated in size. Also note a hint of cartographic breakdown where the coast of Africa meets the right edge of the map.
Brazil is pretty recognizable, but South America is too big compared to Africa and Europe, the Atlantic is way too narrow, and South America is compressed east-to-west. Also, what are the big islands offshore? North America is essentially imaginary.
Now one thing we can count on navigators of the 1500's being able to measure accurately is latitude. On the east side we can clearly see the tip of France, so the top of the map represents about 50 degrees north latitude. So right away we can forget about this map showing Greenland, subglacial or not. The coast of subglacial Greenland, by the way, won't look very different from the present coast, for the simple reason that most of the Greenland coast is rock, not ice. There's nothing on the map that even vaguely resembles Greenland.
The Piri Reis Map does not use any systematic projection, although as noted above it's close to a cylindrical equidistant. It tries to get features accurate to shape and relative location, and it tries to plot accurate latitudes, but there is no reasonable transformation of the present earth that will yield the Piri Reis Map. (You can, of course, come up with a mathematical transformation that will transform any map into any other map, but any transformation of the real world into the Piri Reis Map would be so convoluted and ad hoc that it would prove nothing.)
South America
The scale of South America above was chosen to give a good fit in latitude from the north coast to the tip of Brazil, presumably the best-mapped part at the time the map was drawn. We can see that the match between the modern map and the Piri Reis Map is pretty good for some distance south of that, both in scale and in geographic detail.
That long stretch of coast on the bottom of the map has been claimed to be Antarctica, a place not known to humans until the 19th century. So let's compare a modern map of South America (left, below) with the Piri Reis Map (right).
Start with the obvious. The tip of Brazil is easy to place (A-a). To the west (b) we have a large river flowing into a broad recess. This can only be the Amazon (B). The big island to the northeast on the Piri Reis Map may be Marajo Island, the big island at the mouth of the Amazon. Whatever, the fact that there is no island in mid-Atlantic as shown doesn't bode well for the idea that this map drew on ancient advanced knowledge.
To the south, the sharp recess in the coast of Brazil (C-c) is easy to see on both maps. At d we have a large river with a big delta flowing out of a convex coastline, and a big island offshore (e). It's a nearly perfect match for the Orinoco (D) and the island is Trinidad (E). One of the two rivers at g is almost certainly the Magdalena (G) but it's not clear what the other one is. Possibly the Magdalena is the river to the east and the Darien is the river to the west. The coastal bend north of Panama is fairly clear (F-f) but everything north of that bears almost no resemblance to any modern maps.
Moving south, it's tempting to identify the big river at h with the Rio de la Plata (P), except the Rio de la Plata is too far south and empties into a large bay, not on a bulge in the coast. The Piri Reis Map actually matches the real coastal bulge at H far better, except there's no river there. But there is a city called Rio de Janeiro, or "River of January" because the discoverer mistook the complex bays there for the mouth of a large river. In fact, the real coastline there looks rather like the Piri Reis coastline, if you squint a bit. It certainly looks more like it than anything on the map looks like Greenland! If we buy this, the smooth concave indentation to the south (I-i) falls into place.
The southern compass rose on the map would place the tropic of Capricorn on the small coastal bump halfway between c and h, and that would favor the big river being the Rio de la Plata. So we have to conclude that either the latitudes or the coastline (or both) are inaccurate south of c. The coastal fit seems too good to discard, and the marginal notes in this area explain how Piri Reis synthesized his map from a number of sources, so it's not hard to see how latitude might have suffered a bit in the process. Remember, he didn't have the raw latitude observations to go on.
Thereafter, the Piri Reis Map drifts into the Twilight Zone. It shows South America swinging far to the east. Given that the map so far has done fairly well in latitude, we can be sure the coastline is not Antarctica. Also, if the map draws on ancient knowledge to show things no 16th century explorer would have known, why is the coastline continuous? So why isn't there open water between South America and "Antarctica?" You can't seize on an accidental resemblance to a couple of bumps on the coast of Antarctica and blithely ignore the failure to show the Drake Passage!
Most damning of all to the Antarctica interpretation is that the marginal notes refer to the coast in this region being discovered by Portuguese ships blown off course. One note refers to the land being "very hot," which probably rules out Antarctica. The Piri Reis Map itself explicitly says the information in this area came from European sources. Atlanteans and extraterrestrials need not apply. We have isolated sightings of coast made by ships far off course and unsure of their location. Small wonder the map is wildly inaccurate.
Considering that we have had a good match so far by assuming the Piri Reis Map shows relative latitude accurately (although not nearly as well as north of the equator; the scale of South America is too large), and that coastal features like points and bays are accurately rendered, then south of the smoothly curving coast at I-i there must be a cusp on the coast (j-J). The next prominent point k could be the point beyond the Rio de la Plata (K). The latitude is about right compared to the rest of South America.
Above is an alternative interpretation of the mystery area. It requires us to assume the latitudes are badly off, something not hard to envision in maps of that era. However, it matches the curves in the coast. Point k might even correspond to the tip of Tierra del Fuago.
Antarctica?
Above is a map of South America and Antarctica with the Piri Reis coastline in magenta. Southern South America and Antractica are in the orthographic projection - in other words they do look like they would as seen from space. We can see the Piri Reis Map bears no resemblance at all to Antarctica. The 600-mile wide Drake Passage is not shown, nor are the large islands in the Weddell Sea. The latitude is thousands of miles off.
So in response to people who ask how to explain why the Piri Reis Map shows the coastline of Antarctica accurately, the answer is - it doesn't. It especially doesn't show the subglacial coastline of Antarctica, which corresponds to the existing coastline of Antarctica around most of the continent anyway.
Some Real Mysteries About the Map
The map seems to show more detail than Europeans were likely to have in 1513. Pizarro hadn't been to Peru, yet, so how did Piri Reis know about the Andes? Did somebody hear tales of mountains far inland? Also, the detail on the South American coast seems a bit rich for 1513. Was the map begun then and completed later? Was the map copied later and the date miscopied? But if the map was derived from ancient sources that contained details otherwise unknown to Europeans, why are so many parts of it so crude?
There's also a marginal note opposite South America that says "It is related by the Portuguese infidel that in this spot night and day are at their shortest of two hours, at their longest of twenty two hours. But the day is very warm and in the night there is much dew." That would indicate a far southern latitude, but note that the report explicitly comes from the Portuguese, not from arcane ancient sources. It's possible that some Portuguese expedition was blown very far south, not to Antarctica where the days are rarely "very warm," but perhaps to 50 south or so.
Let's Hear it for Piri Reis
For 1513, this map shows an astonishing amount of detail. The notes on the map explain that the map was synthesized from about 20 maps, many of which were captured from Spanish and Portuguese ships in the Mediterranean. It was also supplemented by accounts given by captured Spanish and Portuguese sailors.
Not a map from some ancient Atlantean civilization, not a map created by extraterrestrials, but a first class piece of naval intelligence. Considering that it was created by a sailor whose country never participated in the age of exploration, and that it's drawn wholly from second-hand sources, it's an astonishing piece of work. It seems to contain up-to-the-minute details derived from enemy maps, many of which would have been tightly-guarded secrets.
There's a class of crank that hates the idea that other people might have real accomplishments, because they never accomplish anything themselves. So Shakespeare didn't write his plays, other people did; Robert Peary didn't reach the North Pole as he claimed, and so on. And Piri Reis wasn't a gifted admiral and good intelligence analyst, but had to get help from ancient lost documents. Get a life, folks.

read and engage, use logic, it affects your traditional Catholic worldview
Vimanas of Ancient India
In the Vedic literature of India, there are many descriptions of flying machines that are generally called vimanas. These fall into two cate- gories: (l) manmade craft that resemble airplanes and fly with the aid of birdlike wings, and (2) unstreamlined structures that fly in a mysterious manner and are generally not made by human beings. The machines in category (l) are described mainly in medieval, secular Sanskrit works dealing with architecture, automata, military siege engines, and other mechanical contrivances. Those in category (2) are described in ancient works such as the Rg Veda, the Maha-bha-rata, the Rama-yana, and the Pura-nas, and they have many features reminis- cent of UFOs.
articles & documents
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A Tribute to Hinduism - Vimanas
A Tribute to Hinduism
In the Vedic literature of India, there are many descriptions of flying machines that are generally called Vimanas. India's national epic, The Mahabharata, is a poem of vast length and complexity. There are no physical remains of ancient Indian aircraft technology but references to ancient flying machines are commonplace in the ancient Indian texts. Several popular ancient epics describe their use in warfare. Depending on one's point of view, either it contains some of the earliest known science fiction, or it records conflict between beings with weapons as powerful and advanced as anything used today.
Accomplice: Vimanas
Accomplice
An inspiration behind Accomplice’s scarcars such as Karloff’s loco vimana, the VIMANA are spacecraft, land leviathans, airplanes and interdimensional craft described in great technical detail in the ancient Vedic literature of India. Some were said to be as fast as thought itself.
Ancient Nuclear Weapons? Another Aspect of the Ancient Indian Astronaut Connection
Colin Mulligan
Is it really possible that the ancient Indians had the capacity to deploy devastating nuclear weapons against their enemies? R
Ancient Vimana Aircraft
John Burrows
Sanskrit texts are filled with references to gods who fought battles in the sky using Vimanas equipped with weapons as deadly as any we can deploy in these more enlightened times. R
Book: Vimana Aircraft of Ancient India and Atlantis
D. H. Childress and Ivan T. Sanderson
The author/editor provides us with a translation of ancient texts from India which purport to describe aircraft construction and operation. He then makes comments about the subject, including excerpts from related works. The point is that, according to Childress and others, the ancient civilization of India had made technological advances equaling and perhaps surpassing our own before it was mysteriously destroyed--perhaps in a nuclear war! R
Could the Ancients Fly? A Strange Connection
David Hatcher Childress, Atlantis Ring, Issue No. 10
Throughout history there have been many common myths and legends of flying machines or devices, the familiar flying carpets of ancient Arabia; Biblical figures such as Ezekiel and Solomon flying from place to place and the magical chariots, or Vimanas, of ancient India and China. R
Secrets of the Vimana
Illuminations
In various kinds of Asian and South Asian texts, we find references to flying machines and aerial vehicles. Chinese and Indian stories tell of peoples or individual artisans who constructed devices for travelling through the air. R
The Anti-Gravity Handbook
David Hatcher Childress
Many researchers into the UFO enigma tend to overlook a very important fact. While it assumed that most flying saucers are of alien, or perhaps Governmental Military origin, another possible origin of UFOs is ancient India and Atlantis. R
The Story of Vimanas: India's Tradition of Flying Machines
Dr. Srikumar V. Gopalakrishna
In the Vedic literature of India, there are many descriptions of flying machines that are generally called vimanas. These fall into two cate- gories: (l) manmade craft that resemble airplanes and fly with the aid of birdlike wings, and (2) unstreamlined structures that fly in a mysterious manner and are generally not made by human beings. This book gives an elaborate description of vimanas of both categories. In this chapter, I will survey some of the available literature on vima-nas, beginning with the texts dating from late antiquity and the medieval period. R
UFOpsi - Vimanas
UFOpsi
Many ancient documents written in Sanskrit, especially one called "Vimanika", written by Bharadvajy and found in 1875 inside an old Indian temple, describe how to build "vimanas" (celestial chariot), how to pilot one and so on. In other documents it is said that certain Gods traveled and ruled everywhere on their vimanas. R
UFOs and Vimanas
By Stephen Knapp
In supplying information about the advancements of Vedic science, the subject of Vedic airplanes, vimanas, is almost in a classification of its own. Some of this information is so amazing that for some people it may border science fiction. Nonetheless, as we uncover and explain it, it provides serious food for thought. R
Vedic Theories of Creation - Vimanas
Crystallinks
The Vimanas - The Ramayana describes a Vimana as a double-deck, circular (cylindrical) aircraft with portholes and a dome. It flew with the speed of the wind and gave forth a melodious sound (a humming noise?). Ancient Indian texts on Vimanas are so numerous it would take several books to relate what they have to say. The ancient Indians themselves wrote entire flight manuals on the control of various types of Vimanas, of which there were basically four: the Shakuna Vimana, the Sundara Vimana, the Rukma Vimana and the Tripura Vimana R
Vimanas in Sanskrit: Descriptions of Ancient Aircraft
R. Cedric Leonard, Quest for Atlantis
The following quotations from classical Sanskrit literature are chosen specifically to illustrate the appearance, nature and capabilities generally ascribed to the ancient aerial vehicles known as vimanas (pronounced "vimans") in the writings of ancient India. R
Vimanas: The Ancient Indian Astronaut Connection
Colin Mulligan
I first remember reading about vimanas, i.e. highly advanced ancient Indian flying machines, in Chariots Of The Gods, the first international best-seller of the controversial author Erich Von Daniken. Down the years I have come across several other interesting references to vimanas elsewhere, too. It wasn’t , however, until I recently received an e mail from an Indian reader of my article Ancient Astronauts, that I recalled just how very intriguing these vimanas and, indeed, many other references to space travel and fantastically advanced technology in ancient Indian texts are. To this end, the following piece is intended to take a fresh look at vimanas and, moreover, explore the Indian ancient astronaut connection in general. R
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Vimanas: Aerial Vehicles of Ancient India
R. Cedric Leonard, Quest for Atlantis
In the Sanskrit epics of ancient India, aerial vehicles were known as vimanas, and the knowledge of aeronautics was termed Viman Vidya.

The Hindu texts discuss this viramand you can read the English translations even comic books but it is undeniable that Hindu scripture discusses technology that supposedly did not exist at that time, Hindu texts have the ZERO, architcecture, math, metals, medicine, aircraft and weapons before anyone else. It is undeniable.
The Oneness be with you. There is no Nirvana without samsara. Jesus went to India to learn and teach. Abrahams other children went East.
READ:
"In the Vedic literature of India, there are many descriptions of flying machines that are generally called vimanas. These fall into two categories: (1) manmade craft that resemble airplanes and fly with the aid of birdlike wings, and (2) unstreamlined structures that fly in a mysterious manner and are generally not made by human beings. The machines in category (1) are described mainly in medieval, secular Sanskrit works dealing with architecture, automata, military siege engines, and other mechanical contrivances. Those in category (2) are described in ancient works such as the Rg Veda, the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, and the Puranas, and they have many features reminiscent of UFOs."
- Richard L. Thompson, Alien Identities - Ancient Insights into Modern UFO Phenomena
"One time while King Citaketu was traveling in outer space on a brilliantly effulgent airplane given to him by Lord Vishnu, he saw Lord Siva..."
"The arrows released by Lord Siva appeared like fiery beams emanating from the sun globe and covered the three residential airplanes, which could then no longer be seen."
- Srimad Bhagasvatam, Sixth Canto, Part 3
"The so-called 'Rama Empire' of Northern India and Pakistan developed at least fifteen thousand years ago on the Indian sub-continent and was a nation of many large, sophisticated cities, many of which are still to be found in the deserts of Pakistan, northern, and western India. Rama...was ruled by 'enlightened Priest-Kings' who governed the cities.
"The seven greatest capital cities of Rama were known in classical Hindu texts as 'The Seven Rishi Cities'. According to ancient Indian texts, the people had flying machines which were called 'vimanas'. The ancient Indian epic describes a vimana as a double- deck, circular aircraft with portholes and a dome, much as we would imagine a flying saucer. It flew with the "speed of the wind" and gave forth a 'melodious sound'. There were at least four different types of vimanas; some saucer shaped, others like long cylinders ('cigar shaped airships')."
- D. Hatcher Childress, "Ancient Indian Aircraft Technology"
In The Anti-Gravity Handbook
"An aerial chariot, the Pushpaka, conveys many people to the capital of Ayodhya. The sky is full of stupendous flying-machines, dark as night,but picked out by lights with a yellowish glare."
- Mahavira of Bhavabhuti
(A Jain text of the eighth century culled from older texts and traditions)
"The Vedas, ancient Hindu poems, thought to be the oldest of all the Indian texts, describe vimanas of various shapes and sizes: the 'ahnihotra-vimana' with two engines, the 'elephant-vimana' with more engines, and other types named after the kingfisher, ibis and other animals."
- D. Hatcher Childress, "Ancient Indian Aircraft Technology"
In The Anti-Gravity Handbook
"Now Vata's chariot's greatness! Breaking goes it,
And Thunderous is its noise,
To heaven it touches,
Makes light lurid [a red fiery glare], and whirls dust upon the earth."
- Rig-Veda
(Vata is the Aryan god of wind.)
"Taoist tales often tell of adepts or immortals flying through the air. The xian were immortals capable of flight under their own divine power. They were said to be feathered, and a term that has been used for Taoist priests is yu ke, meaning 'feathered guest'. The fei tian, which might be translated as 'flying immortals', also appear in early tales, adding to the numbers of airborne beings in the Chinese mythological corpus."
"The Chinese tales of fei che, flying vehicles, exhibit the first understanding, perhaps, that humans would fly only with some kind of technological apparatus. A hymn written in the second century B.C. speaks of deity appearing in chariots drawn by flying dragons."
- Dr. Benjamin B. Olshin, "Mechanical Mythology: Private Descriptions of Flying Machines as Found in Early Chinese, Korean, Indian, and Other Texts" (draft copy)
(2) The Mahabharata
"The more typical vimanas had flight characteristics resembling those reported for UFOs, and the being associated with them were said to possess powers similar to those presently ascribed to UFO entities. An interesting example of a vimana is the flying machine which Salva, an ancient Indian king, acquired from Maya Danava, an inhabitant of a planetary system called Taltala."
- Richard L. Thompson, Alien Identities - Ancient Insights into Modern UFO Phenomena
"The cruel Salva had come mounted on the Saubha chariot that can go anywhere, and from it he killed many valiant Vrishni youths and evilly devastated all the city parks."
- Mahabharata
"The Mahabharata, a poem of vast length and complexity, achieved its present form in the second century A.D."
- Reader's Digest Mysteries of the Unexplained
"It is significant that Salva asked for a vehicle that could not be destroyed by Devas, Asuras, Gandharvas, Uragas, or Raksasas. These are all powerful races of humanoid beings that were openly active on the earth or in its general environs in Salva's time, and so naturally he wanted to be able to defend himself against them.
"Salva's vehicle is described as an iron city, and thus it must have been metallic in appearance and quite large....Many Vedic vimanas are described as flying cities, and one is reminded of the very large 'mother-ships' that are sometimes discussed in UFO reports."
- Richard L. Thompson, Alien Identities - Ancient Insights into Modern UFO Phenomena
"The airplane occupied by Salva was very mysterious. It was so extraordinary that sometimes many airplanes would appear to be in the sky, and sometimes there were apparently none. Sometimes the plane was visible and sometimes not visible, and the warriors of the Yadu dynasty were puzzled about the whereabouts of the peculiar airplane. Sometimes they would see the airplane on the ground, sometimes flying in the sky, sometimes resting on the peak of a hill and sometimes floating on the water. The wonderful airplane flew in the sky like a whirling firebrand - it was not steady even for a moment."
- Bhaktivedanta, Swami Prabhupada, Krsna
"An Air Force RB-47, equipped with electronic countermeasure (ECM) gear and manned by six officers, was followed by an unidentified object for a distance of well over 700 mi. and for a time period of 1.5 hr., as it flew from Mississippi, through Louisiana and Texas and into Oklahoma. The object was, at various times, seen visually by the cockpit crew as an intensely luminous light, followed by ground-radar and detected on ECM monitoring gear aboard the RB-47. Of special interest in this case are several instances of simultaneous appearances and disappearances on all three of these physically distinct 'channels', and rapidity of maneuvers beyond the prior experience of the air crew."
- July 17, 1957 sighting reported in the journal Astronautics and Aeronautics
"It is significant that Salva dropped such things as snakes, stones, and tree trunks from his vimana. There is no mention of bombs, and it would seem that even though Salva possessed a remarkable flying machine, he did not have the kind of aerial weapons technology used in World War II. He did, however, have a quite different technology, which could be used to affect the weather and produce whirlwinds, thunderbolts, and hailstones."
- Richard L. Thompson, Alien Identities - Ancient Insights into Modern UFO Phenomena
There is this account by the hero Krishna that is suggestive of more modern weapons. As he takes to the skies in pursuit of Salva:
"His Saubha clung to the sky at a league's length...He threw at me rockets, missiles, spears, spikes, battle-axes, three-bladed javelins, flame-throwers, without pausing....The sky...seemed to hold a hundred suns, a hundred moons...and a hundred myriad stars. Neither day nor night could be made out, or the points of compass."
- The Mahabharata
Later, when Saubha becomes invisible, Krishna relates:
"I quickly laid on an arrow, which killed by seeking out sound, to kill them...All the Danavas [troops in Salva's army] who had been screeching lay dead, killed by the blazing sunlike arrows that were triggered by sound."
- The Mahabharata
"But the Saubha itself has escaped the attack, and at last Krishna hurls against it his 'favorite fire weapon', a discus having the shape of the 'haloed sun'. Severed in two by the impact, the aerial city falls down.
"Salva himself is killed, and with his death this episode of The Mahabharata comes to an end."
- Reader's Digest Mysteries of the Unexplained
In another episode the fearful Agneya weapon, "a blazing missile of smokeless fire" is unleashed by the hero Adwattan.
"Dense arrows of flame, like a great shower, issued forth upon creation, encompassing the enemy....A thick gloom swiftly settled upon the Pandava hosts. All points of the compass were lost in darkness. Fierce winds began to blow. Clouds roared upward, showering dust and gravel.
"Birds croaked madly...the very elements seemed disturbed. The sun seemed to waver in the heavens. The earth shook, scorched by the terrible violent heat of this weapon. Elephants burst into flame and ran to and fro in a frenzy...over a vast area, other animals crumpled to the ground and died. From all points of the compass the arrows of flame rained continuously and fiercely."
"Gurkha, flying in his swift and powerful Vimana, hurled against the three cities of the Vrishnis and Andhakas a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame as bright as the thousand suns rose in all its splendour...An iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas....The corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable. The hair and nails fell out; pottery broke without apparent cause, and the birds turned white....After a few hours all foodstuffs were infected.... To escape from this fire, the soldiers threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment..."
- The Mahabharata
"It would seem that The Mahabharata is describing an atomic war! References like this one are not isolated; but battles, using a fantastic array of weapons and aerial vehicles are common in all the epic Indian books. One even describes a vimana-Vailix battle on the Moon! The above section very accurately describes what an atomic explosion would look like and the effects of the radioactivity on the population. Jumping into water is the only respite.
"When the Rishi City of Mohenjodaro was excavated by archaeologists in the last century, they found skeletons just lying in the streets, some of them holding hands, as if some great doom had suddenly overtaken them. These skeletons are among the most radioactive ever found, on a par with those found at Hiroshima and Nagasaki."
"Futhermore, at Mohenjo-Daro, a well planned city laid on a grid, with a plumbing system superior to those used in Pakistan and India today, the streets were littered with 'black lumps of glass'. These globs of glass were discovered to be clay pots that had melted under intense heat! "
- D. Hatcher Childress, "Ancient Indian Aircraft Technology"
In The Anti-Gravity Handbook
There is another account of such a weapon:
"Cuka, flying on board a high-powered vimana, hurled on to the triple city a single projectile charged with all the power of the universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame, as bright as ten thousand suns, rose in all the splendor... When the vimana returned to Earth, it looked like a splendid block of antimony resting on the ground."
- Mausola Purva
An Examination of the Technology
(1) The Dreamlike Quality of Vimanas
"O King, this beautifully decorated airplane had been manufactured by the demon Maya and was equipped with weapons for all types of combat. It was inconceivable and indescribable. Indeed, it was sometimes visible and sometimes not. Seated in this airplane under a beautiful protective umbrella and being fanned by the best of camaras, Maharaja Bai, surrounded by his captains and commanders, appeared just like the moon rising in the evening, illuminating all directions."
- Swami Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta, Srimad Bhagavatam
"The Vedic universe is described as a product of maya, or illusion, and it can be thought of as a universal virtual reality system.....The role of the computer is played by a fundamental energy called pradhana. This energy is activated by an expansion of the Supreme known as Maha-Visnu, who acts as the universal programmer. Thus activated pradhana produces subtle forms of energy, and these in turn produce gross matter."
"Uma, the wife of Lord Siva, is also known as Maya Devi, or the goddess in charge of the illusory energy. She is also the Mother Goddess who has been worshipped all over the world by many different names. Since Siva is Uma's husband, he is the master of illusion and technology. Thus there is a natural connection between Lord Siva, who Salva approached to obtain his vimana, and Maya Danava, the master of illusion who manufactured it."
- Richard L. Thompson, Alien Identities - Ancient Insights into Modern UFO Phenomena
Many of properties of the vimanas bring to mind the ephemeral nature of UFO's and their seeming ability to defy the conventional laws of physics. Carl Jung has remarked on the dreamlike quality of UFO's, and somewhere, amidst the observation of bright lights and lost time, the delineation between objective and subjective consciousness appears to break down.
"Our research has found extensive similarities between UFO encounters and religious and metaphysical mysticism, folklore, shamans' trances, migraine attacks, and even the operations of the creative imagination. Among the similarities are recurrent image-constants, a basically consistent sequence of events, and the unusual "peak experience" quality common to all. Also, very bizarre incidents in abduction reports have parallels in these phenomena. For example, the embarrassingly incredible "bodily dismemberment" sometimes reported by abductees is a regular feature of shaman's "death-rebirth" trances."
- Alvin H. Lawson
Do the vimanas represent an ancient technology that utilizes the forces of nature (such as transient geophysical electrical fields) to effect human consciousness and alter the perception of reality? Certainly there have been rumors of psychotronic devices, such as those reported tested in the "M" Triangle area west of Moscow.
"There exists a natural phenomenon whose manifestations border on both the physical and the mental. There is a medium in which human dreams can be implemented, and this is the mechanism by which UFO events are generated, needing no superior intelligence to trigger them This would explain the fugitivity of UFO manifestations, the alleged contact with friendly occupants, and the fact that the objects appear to keep pace with human technology and to use current symbols."
- Jacques Valleé
An early UFO report in 1929 (18 years before Kenneth Arnold filed his famous report which lead newspapers to coin the term "flying saucers") may be instructive. In a valley in between Mongolia and Tibet, a team of Norwegians and sherpas had just completed building a shrine dedicated to Shambhala. (To Tibetan lamas, Shambhala [which means "quietude"] is a secret place of enlightenment in the northern mountains.)
"On August fifth - something remarkable! We were in our camp in the Kukunor district not far from the Humboldt Chain. In the morning about half-past nine some of our caravaneers noticed a remarkably big black eagle flying over us. Seven of us began to watch this unusual bird. At this same moment another of our caravaneers remarked, 'There is something far above the bird'. And he shouted in his astonishment. We all saw, in a direction from north to south, something big and shiny reflecting the sun, like a huge oval moving at great speed. Crossing our camp the thing changed in its direction from south to southwest. And we saw how it disappeared in the intense blue sky. We even had time to take our field glasses and saw quite distinctly an oval form with shiny surface, one side of which was brilliant from the sun."
- Nicholas Roerich, Altai-Himalaya
According to a lama, the shiny oval was a "Radiant form of Matter" from Shambhala. It was, he said, a protecting force that was always near but could not always be perceived. In Tibetan Buddhist belief "matter is a development of thought, crystallized mental energy".
"What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our like of tomorrow; our life is the creation of our mind."
- The Dhammapada
Students are taught to mentally visualize their tutelary god which slowly takes on the same quasi-reality as a phantom monk. Under experienced control such ephemeral creations of the mind, or tulpas, can take many different forms such as man, animal, tree, rock, etc.
"Once the tulpa is endowed with enough vitality to be capable of playing the part of a real being, it tends to free itself from its maker's control....Tibetan magicians also relate cases in which the tulpa is sent to fulfill a mission, but does not come back and pursues its peregrinations as a half-conscious, dangerously mischievous puppet. The same thing, it is said, may happen when the maker of the tulpa dies before having dissolved it."
- Alexandra David-Neel, With Mystics and Magicians in Tibet
(2) Indian Technological Data
"There are ancient Indian accounts of manmade wooden vehicles that flew with wings in the manner of modern airplanes. Although these wooden vehicles were also called vimanas, most vimanas were not at all like airplanes. "
- Richard L. Thompson, Alien Identities - Ancient Insights into Modern UFO Phenomena
"According to ancient Sanskrit texts found a few years ago by Westerners in a South Indian temple, vimanas were open topped flying devices, not strictly UFOs since they were restricted to the Earth's atmosphere. Dr. Roberto Pinotti is an Italian scientist, and on the 12th of October 1988 was a speaker in the World Space Conference in Bangalore, India. He referred to several Hindu texts and pointed out that Indian gods and heroes fought in the skies using piloted vehicles armed with weapons. These weapons consisted of seven different types of mirrors and lenses which were used for offensive and defensive purposes. The 'Pinjula Mirror' offered a form of 'visual shield' preventing the pilots from 'evil rays', and the weapon named 'Marika' was used to shoot enemy aircraft. Dr. Pinotti said that these weapons 'do not seem to be too different from what we today call laser technology'.
"The vehicles themselves were made of special heat absorbing metals, called 'Somaka, Soundalike and Mourthwika'. According to Dr. Pinotti, the 'principles of propulsion as far as the descriptions were concerned, might be defined as electrical and chemical, but solar energy was involved as well.' Other scientists have put forward the theory that the craft were driven by some sort of mercury ion propulsion system. Dr. Pinotti concluded that the fact that vimanas were written about hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of years ago, plus that they resembled modern UFOs would suggest that India had a '...superior but forgotten civilisation. In the light of this, we think it will be better to examine the Hindu texts and subject the descriptive models of vimanas to more scientific scrutiny'."
- Nick Humphries, "UFO Guide"
"The Puspaku Car, that resembles the sun and belongs to my brother, was brought by the powerful Ravan; that aerial and excellent car, going everywhere at will, is ready for thee. That car, resembling a bright cloud in the sky, is in the city of Lanka."
- Ramayana
"According to the Dronaparva, part of the Mahabarata, and the Ramayana, one vimana described was shaped like a sphere and born along at great speed on a mighty wind generated by mercury. It moved like a UFO, going up, down, backwards and forwards as the pilot desired. In another Indian source, the Samar, vimanas were 'iron machines, well-knit and smooth, with a charge of mercury that shot out of the back in the form of a roaring flame'. Another work called the Samaranganasutradhara describes how the vehicles were constructed. It is possible that mercury did have something to do with the propulsion, or more possibly, with the guidance system. Curiously, Soviet scientists have discovered what they call 'age-old instruments used in navigating cosmic vehicles' in caves in Turkestan and the Gobi Desert. The 'devices' are hemispherical objects of glass or porcelain, ending in a cone with a drop of mercury inside."
- D. Hatcher Childress, "Ancient Indian Aircraft Technology"
In The Anti-Gravity Handbook
"G. R.. Josyer, director of the International Academy of Sanskrit Research in Mysore, India, stated on September 25, 1952, that Indian manuscripts several thousands of years old dealt with the construction of various types of aircraft for civil aviation and for warfare.
"The specific manuscript on aeronautics included plans for three types of vimanas (aircraft), the Rukma, Sundara, and Shakuna. Five hundred stanzas of an ancient text treat of such intricate details as the choice and preparation of metals which would be suitable for various parts of vimanas of different types."
"There were eight chapters...that provided plans for the construction of aircraft that flew in the air, traveled under water, or floated pontoon-like on the water's surface. Some stanzas told of the qualifications and training of pilots."
- Brad Steiger, Worlds Before Our Own
"Indeed, there are a remarkable number of stories which involve the construction of flying machines. Within some of these stories, we find an interesting clue as to their possible source. In another set of eleventh-century narratives, the Brihat Kath_ Álokasamgraha, carpenters are involved in the attempt to construct a flying vehicle. When asked by Rumanavat to build a machine which can fly, they reply that such aerial devices are only known to the Yavanas, i.e., the Greeks.
"This is repeated again in the same story, with the suggestion that it is kept as a secret by them. Another romance, the 'Deeds of King Harsha', from the seventh century, speaks of a flying machine made by a Greek who had been taken prisoner. Laufer notes that the term for the aerial machine in this tale is 'a mechanical vehicle (yantray_na) which travels on the surface of the air'."
Clive Hart, The Prehistory of Flight (Berkeley, 1985) "chronologically lists references in various Western texts to flying machines [pp.195-197 et ff.] It is notable that most of these early references to flight in these sources involve the use of man-made wings. There are no discussions of more complex man-carrying aerial vehicles as we found in the Chinese, Korean, and Indian tales."
- Dr. Benjamin B. Olshin, "Mechanical Mythology: Private Descriptions of Flying Machines as Found in Early Chinese, Korean, Indian, and Other Texts" (draft copy)
(3) Chinese and Korean Flying Devices
The earliest written Chinese account of flying machines describes them as taking place in remote antiquity. The following selections are from Dr. Benjamin B. Olshin, "Mechanical Mythology: Private Descriptions of Flying Machines as Found in Early Chinese, Korean, Indian, and Other Texts", which I am able to quote with the kind permission of the author.
"The Chi Kung people were good at making mechanical devices for killing [all kinds of] birds. They could also make aerial carriages which, with a fair wind, traveled great distances. In the time of the emperor Thang [mid-second millennium B.C.], a westerly wind carried such a car as far as Yüchow, whereupon Thang had the car taken to pieces, not wishing his own people to see it. Ten years later there came an easterly wind (of sufficient strength), and then the car was reassembled and the visitors were sent back to their own country, which lies 40,000 li beyond the Jade Gate."
- Chang Hua, "Po Wu Chih" ('Record of Investigation of Things') in the Po Wu Chih
Like the devices described in the Indian Brihat Kath_ Álokasamgraha, Chinese flying machines are often described as being made of wood and fly according to straightforward (although not understood) mechanical principles. The following accounts also postdate the spread of Hellenistic culture.
"On the southern peak of Tian Lau mountain, a long time ago, Lu Ban carved some wood into a crane which then flew 700 li. Later, the bird was placed on the west peak of the northern mountain. Emperor Wu [157-87 B.C.] ordered his people to go take it, but then it flew back to the southern peak. Often, when it looks like it is about to rain, then the bird's wings begin to move, flapping as if it is about to fly."
- Shu I Chi
"By the third century A.D., we read of people constructing a flying vehicle."
- Dr. Benjamin B. Olshin, "Mechanical Mythology: Private Descriptions of Flying Machines as Found in Early Chinese, Korean, Indian, and Other Texts" (draft copy)
"Some use the inner part of the jujube [=date] tree to make a flying vehicle, using ox leather straps fastened to encircling blades, so as to propel this machine. Some others have the idea of making five snakes, six dragons, and three oxen [these are kites in the shape of these animals] encounter the 'hard wind', and so ride it (i.e., the vehicle), rising up 40 li. [That region] is called the Tai Qing ('Area of Upper Air'). In the Tai Qing region, the air is very hard, and can lift people. The Master says that a yuan [this word can mean 'kite' or 'hawk'] flying, spiraling higher and higher, only needs to straighten out its two wings and not flap them any more to move forward, because it is riding on the hard wind. The dragons when they first rise up, step on the clouds, going to 40 li [altitude], then fly by themselves. This account comes from the [Taoist] adepts, and is recounted, being handed down to ordinary people, yet the common people are not really able to understand it."
- Ko Hung (A.D. 283-343), Pao Pu Tzu
"...The picture we get of the device is quite ambiguous, with ox leather straps somehow tied to a circle of swords or blades, or blades [moving?] around. The motion of the blades, though, is never really clearly described in the passage, nor is the overall configuration of the vehicle. We are left with the nonetheless interesting fact that there is a description of a mechanical device intended for flying."
"This is precisely what is relevant in these stories to the historian of science: the fact that a romantic tale or story should employ a mechanical device and at times even include a description of its construction or function. This fact does not necessarily mean that the stories contain elements of fact, or actual records of some now-lost technology."
- Dr. Benjamin B. Olshin, "Mechanical Mythology: Private Descriptions of Flying Machines as Found in Early Chinese, Korean, Indian, and Other Texts" (draft copy)
The Koreans have accounts of similar flying machines, although of much more recent derivation.
"There is another story related to these [ways of naming]. Jung Pyung Goo was the inventor of an airplane in Choson [Korea]. During the Im Jin War [between Korea and Japan, 1592-1597], when Jin Joo fortress was in danger, he rescued his friend by an airplane, flying 30 miles away, and then landing. The spinning top with which children play, 'Ping Goo', whirls around on the ground as it is whipped by them, and then lifts up into the air. This is like Jung Pyung Goo's riding of the airplane, moving up and down. So the name 'Pyung Goo' was given [to the top], changed to 'Ping Goo'."
- Kwon Tokkyu in a 1923 Korean text
Where were such machines manufactured?
"Several thousand of li from China, in what is today Russia... it is said that the people were able to manufacture wheels for a flying machine. Each flying machine required four wheels in all. Furthermore, legend has it that they were able to fly one thousand li in one day. The people of Xi Wu [?] also produced a flying machine, and utilizing a bellows [usually] used in smelting, a pulley hauling device, and other methods, enabled the flying machine to move. The machine was able to float in the air and move freely and without obstacle on rivers or land. During the dangerous times of war and turmoil, this vehicle could be used to ward off attacks from the enemy."
- Yi Kyu Gyong, "A Discriminating Look at the Possibilities of Flying Machines" in A Compilation of Previously Uncollected Texts from Throughout the World
"What caused the creation of this separate category of 'technical myths' is not entirely clear. One what might well ask why the some of the stories ever entered into discussions of machines at all. Why didn't stories of winged beings and levitating immortals simply continue? Why did this separate category of humans in flying machines arise? Perhaps there is a connection to the development of kites, which occurred at a period in China preceding many of these tales of 'aerial carriages'. Kites gave people a view of flight made practical: structures made of bamboo, wood, cloth, and paper, man-made devices actually airborne. There are even stories of kites large enough to hold individuals, a not implausible scenario."
- Dr. Benjamin B. Olshin, "Mechanical Mythology: Private Descriptions of Flying Machines as Found in Early Chinese, Korean, Indian, and Other Texts" (draft copy)