New Medjugorje Commission Announced

by Jimmy Akin on July 25, 2006

in Benedict XVI

Earlier this month, I wrote:

In his pontificate, B16 has been quietly (or not so quietly) dealing with issues that appeared to drift during the pontificate of John Paul II. He reined in the Franciscans in Assisi; he reined in the Neocatechumenal Way; he dealt with the Fr. Maciel matter. I’m wondering if the discussion he had with Bishop Peric included an initiative to clarify where the Church is regarding the subject of Medjugorje.

New evidence has surfaced that my suspicions were correct. Over the weekend I got word from Diane of Te Deum of a story in the European press reporting the formation of a new episcopal commission to investigate Medjugorje. Before I could blog about it, though, word came today that Catholic News Service had confirmed it with the Cardinal who will be overseeing the commission (CHT: Amy).

First,

HERE’S DIANE’S TRANSLATION OF THE EUROPEAN STORY

and

HERE’S THE CNS STORY.

Now for some analysis:

The European story notes that the announcement of the new commission came after the recent meeting of the Bosnia-Hercegovina bishops’ conference in Banja Luka (I just love the sound of that name: Banja Luka. Cool!).

According to the story,

This announcement surprised many, because Medjugorje was not even one of the topics discussed at the meeting.

It also stated:

From our information, the request for the establishment of a new commission comes from the Vatican,

That certainly coheres with the idea of the commission not being discussed at the meeting. If it was the initiative of the local bishops then one would expect it to be discussed. If it were a Vatican initiative, it might not be.

It even more strongly coheres with a few points of evidence from the CNS story. First,

"The commission members have not been named yet," Cardinal Puljic told Catholic News Service in a July 24 telephone interview. "I am awaiting suggestions from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" on theologians to appoint.

So that establishes involvement of the CDF on some level, but most tellingly,

When asked if the new commission was the idea of the doctrinal congregation or of the bishops’ conference, Cardinal Puljic said, "I would rather not answer that question."

Okay. That’s it. Slam dunk. Case closed. The Holy See requested the new commission.

Also (though is is a lesser point):

Officials from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith were not available July 24 for comment.

Here’s exactly what happened:

<Knowledgable Guess Mode> Pre-16 felt for a long time that the community of the faithful would benefit from a clarification of where the Church is with respect to Medjugorje, and so after he became pope, he resolved to provide one. But this matter is delicate and could not best be dealt with in the manner of a motu proprio as the Franciscans of Assisi were. It needed a more indirect approach. He therefore approached his successor as head of the CDF, Cardinal Levada, and asked him to begin preparations for a new commission conducted under the auspieces of the local bishops’ conference. He also informed Bishop Peric earlier this year and Cardinal Puljic as well. Bishop Peric took the opportunity to signal the likely direction–or at least his desired direction–for the commission’s conclusions by stating B16 privately expressed skepticism about the apparitions and by publicly calling on the seers to stop making their claims. After the remainder of the bishops had been informed of the commission, Cardinal Puljic then made it public.</Knowledgable Guess Mode>

In case anyone needs a reminder of why B16 might feel that a clarification of the Church’s position is needed, I quote a passage from Bishop Peric’s confirmation homily that I quoted in my previous post regarding how serious the situation in the diocese is:

[I]n this local Church of Mostar-Duvno, there exists something similar to a schism. A number of priests that have been expelled from the Franciscan OFM Order by the Generalate of the Order, due to their disobedience to the Holy Father, for years now have been forcefully keeping a few parish churches and rectories along with church inventory. They have not only been illegally active in these parishes, but they have also administered the sacraments profanely, while others invalidly, such as Confession and Confirmation, or they have assisted at invalid marriages. This type of anti-ecclesial behaviour is shocking to all of us. At the same time, this scandal of sacrilegiously administering the sacraments, especially of the Most Holy Body of Christ, must shock all the faithful as well who invalidly confess their sins to these priests and participate in sacrilegious liturgies. We pray to the Lord that this scandal and schism be uprooted as soon as possible from our midst.

According to the CNS story:

The cardinal said he did not expect the commission to be established until sometime in September because of the summer holidays.

He said the primary task of the commission would be to review a 1991 report from the region’s bishops that concluded, "It cannot be affirmed that these matters concern supernatural apparitions or revelations." [i.e., a non constat de supernaturalite result]

In addition, he said, the commission would be asked to review pastoral provisions that forbid official diocesan and parish pilgrimages to Medjugorje, while at the same time allowing priests to accompany groups of Catholics in order to provide the sacraments and spiritual guidance.

Now, I can’t make any concrete predictions regarding what the commission will end up announcing, but the direction of these events would not be encouraging for those who would like to see official approval of the apparitions or a loosening of pilgrimage rules–unless B16 is a closet supporter of Medjugorje, which would seem not to be the case if Bishop Peric was honest in what he said in his confirmation homily. Specifically, he said:

[A]ccording to the words of our current Pope, who I encountered during an audience on 24 February this year, [he] commented that at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith they always questioned how all these “apparitions” could be considered authentic for the Catholic faithful.

If that is accurate then it would seem that the holy father’s intention for the new commission would be directed toward one of three ends:

1) Reaffirming the status quo on the apparitions (non constat de supernaturalite) and pilgrimages (unofficial ones permitted with clerical support) in a more forceful manner

2) Reaffirming the status quo on the apparitions (non constat de supernaturalite) but placing new restrictions on pilgrimages (e.g., disallowing priests to accompany pilgrimages to the site)

3) Downgrading the status on the apparitions (i.e., to constat de non supernaturalite) and placing new restrictions on pilgrimages.

The irregular situation of the local ex-Franciscans may also be dealt with anew in an attempt to bring them into line.

Of course, the future is not yet written (from man’s perspective), and none of those things might happen, but if B16 really did take the tone with Bishop Peric that Bishop Peric reported then it sounds as if the best that devotees of the apparitions would be likely to see happen would be a reiteration of the status quo in hopes of ending some current abuses.

Whatever happens, it’s likely to be painful and disappointing to some people on some side of the issue.

So let’s keep the matter in prayer and ask God that healing will be brought to the situation through the commission’s work and that it will reach accurate and wise conclusions that reflect the truth of the matter, whatever the truth may be.

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Very interesting article...
Pope Benedict XVI to Issue a "Vademecum" on Apparitions
Excerpt:
For this reason, the Vatican has asked Opera Romana Pellegrinaggi (one of the most important agencies of religious tourism which belongs to the Vicariate of Rome) to delete from their catalogue visits to the most famous place in Bosnia-Hercegovina, where, nevertheless, more than two million faithful are visiting every year. Where is the problem? Two factions have been created: one in favor of the apparitions, and therefore on the side of visionaries; the other one openly on the side of the diocesan bishop, Msgr. Ratko Peric, who like his late predecessor, does not believe in the truthfulness of these phenomena, and after having never been listened to, already some time ago asked the alleged visionaries to live a hidden life and not disclose any messages attributed to the Madonna. This failure to obey the Bishop would already be enough, according to the ‘Vademecum’ devised by Benedict XVI, to declare the apparitions of Medjugorje to be false.

I know this is just an article, nothing has been confirmed but still very interesting.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Pope Urban Vlll defines the position regarding private revelations: “In cases like this (apparitions), it is better to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all the blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true.”
As for any so-called "disobedience" of visionaries, the best way to describe the position of the visionaries is possibly by quoting the apostles after they had also experienced the calling of the Holy Spirit and went out into the temple to preach. “It is impossible for us to refrain from speaking of what we have seen and heard” (Acts 4:20).
Zanic and Peric? Well, from my understanding, they were communist-ratified Bishops as must be the case in communist countries. I also understand that Bishop Zanic changed his tune, from support to condemnation, coincidentally after being called in by the communist secret police and ordered to stop the pilgrimages. Conspiracy theory? Perhaps. But, for some reason, I just don't trust the bishops of Mostar. But then, I have read the "HISTORY OF THE HERZEGOVINIAN AFFAIR", which doesn't paint a rosy picture of secular bishopry in this region. It makes one bleed for the Franciscans for the suffering and injustices they endured.

I wouldn't base any conclusions on what Bishop Peric said. He's been known to twist things. I'm still tending to believe some of the more positive quotes from B16, such as "Closing Medjugorje is never an option" as quoted by Cardinal Shoenborn. Also, it is well known that JPII supported Medjugorje. And B16 is pushing through his sainthood case. So, I'm tending to think B16 wouldn't want to deliver a slap in the face to someone he's about to beatify.

Sam Carpenter,
Many people who have been there don't seem to have a clue about what is really going on there. Case in point.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

If you haven't gone to Medjugorje then you haven't a clue about what is really going on there. Case in point, Confession, Adoration of the Eucharist and Holy Mass are the high points of any pilgrimage there. That's what the Blessed Mother is asking of us.

Many knowledges I have found here I would come back http://straponcrush3.isuisse.com/

The focus of Medjugorje seems to be on Medjugorje and not being a faithful Catholic. It's a sideshow. Pay attention to the Church and think with Her. Don't believe in something that might be a sham for crying our loud. Divine revelation ended with death of Saint John on Patmos. Orivate revelation cannot be given nearly the same weight and it is NOT ESSENTIAL FOR OUR ETERNAL SALVATION. The Blessed Virgin Mary would obey whatever Holy Mother Church says. We should do the same.

The focus of Medjugorje seems to be on Medjugorje and not being a faithful Catholic. It's a sideshow. Pay attention to the Church and think with Her. Don't believe in something that might be a sham for crying our loud. Divine revelation ended with death of Saint John on Patmos. Orivate revelation cannot be given nearly the same weight and it is NOT ESSENTIAL FOR OUR ETERNAL SALVATION. The Blessed Virgin Mary would obey whatever Holy Mother Church says. We should do the same.

I am sorry to say that Diane K, you are a seriously sucked in by the anti-medjugorje hype. E Michael Jones should be called "Sideshow Bob" because he's trawled the deep blue ocean for possible connections from Medjugorje to everything from Nazism to Muslim ethnic cleansing. You will notice that he and other like him spend very little time on what matters - i.e. whether the apparitions being experienced by the visionaries are genuine. In his writings, you will find hardly ANYTHING on the several scientific investigation performed by competent teams. He is the King of out-of-context reporting. He is, in fact, more a fiction novellist than a serious investigator. How many people have read his book "Ghosts of Surmanci" where he goes to great lengths to portray the visions as the result of repressed mass guilt. It's quite laughable. He will try to lead his readers all over the countryside away from the bare facts - 1) Scientific teams cannot prove hoax, 2) It is less likely to be demonic than truly of God.

Peace to my Brothers and Sisters in Chirst JesusI must tell you about myself as I only boastin Jesus Christ and our Most Blessed Trinity OUR BLESSED VIRGIN MARY has her mantle upon me at all times I am a hermit a contemplative, I pray The Rosaray, the Divine Mercy and what I call my Praise Beads which Jesus gave me I had a string of pearls I was going to get rid of and he said count them there was 150 pearls on it. I started to say a praise to on each of them and he gently kissed me on the forehead. Ihave a picture of OUR BLESSED THEOTOKOS OUR LADY of Valldimir as you can see I cant spell good so please excuse that.ON JUne the 2nd or 5th The seers Said Our Lady seemed to be concerned about something. Bingo thats when Jesus said I could pray to his true mother for all souls connected with that place i started 3 days before that apparation. THere has been noyhing but wars ect. Since this whole thing happened, What does Islam mean Peace ,surrender submit, Medjugorie Peace surrender to me submit to me and the profets from the fasle phrofets. Is staggering abomb maybe to the Vatican to the u.s. any where and I know some of you are saying Our Blessed Father might be a false Pope and If He is agaist Med. You will surley say it. Everyone of us should Pray for him. I chose THE SOWWERFUL HEART of MARY, Jesus wants to know way do you keep making her cry. GOD BLESS tjosephine PS. Ive been to a Trappist Monastery in GA. This is where Our Lord Jesus Christ started to show me so much, I was allowed to spend all of Holy Week there and Most of Divine Mercy this last april PAX

Quote by anonymous: "The argument on this thread seems to be that Medjugorje could be a deception by Satan; it seems that most skeptics of the apparitions are at least acknowledging the fact that something supernatural is taking place, based on the profound medical tests done on the visionaries which show this."
Yes, you're absolutely right. Something is happening at Medjugprje and the only thing detractors genuinely have to cling to is that that Medjugorje is satanic. But, this patently cannot be so. A glimpse of the sort of message Satan can't help himself delivering was showcased in a much-documented event, where one of the visionaries was met my Satan instead of the BVM (The BVM allowed him to stay a short while before pushing him aside saying to the visionary "I did this so you could see that satan is very real"). While Satan had his moment with the visionary, he said to her "Renounce all this and I will make you happy in love and in life". This is Satan's standard message over and over. He tried it on with Jesus in the desert. He can't help himself. He is all about the glamour of the world and the glamour of evil. Yes, he can be tricky, but I'm sure there is a limit allowed by God as to how tricky Satan can be, bearing in mind how simple most believers are.

How close to those pyrimids is medjugorje and where is the missing grandmother? Id stay as far away from that place as I could,. Ill stay right at my Catholic church or go to a trappist monastery

To me, this article seems to present promising news. I wanted to outline why I believe this...
It says that the new commission will "study the effects of pilgrimages to Medjugorje."
It goes on to state that there are three main points that are investigated with claims like Medjugorje:
1) Evidence of authenticity
2) Messages conforming to Church teaching
3) Evidence of good fruits
The article seems to state that the Church is satisfied that Medjugorje meets the first two requirements, but that "Church leaders are now tackling the third question raised by the document, appraising the pastoral implications of the phenomena, by studying the "fruits" of the reported apparitions."
This is good news, because the fruits of Medjugorje are global!
The article reports that several questions related to the fruits will be asked:
1) What are the experiences of pilgrims who visit Medjugorje?
2) What motivates some people to make repeated visits there?
3) What effect does their pilgrimage have upon the way they live after they return home?
Well, tell that commission to look right here at the Medjugorje Forum to find answers to these questions. In fact, perhaps we should discuss these questions and answer them for ourselves.
Reading further, the article states "the Holy See encouraged the formation of a pastoral commission to continue the study, Msgr. Zovkic reported."
This is more excellent news, because it means that the Pope -- not the Bishop of Mostar -- asked for this new commission to be formed.
It does say that the jurisdiction of the commission will be under Bishop Ratko, but that is to be expected. The main point is that the Holy Father is the one who asked for this to happen.
This paragraph stood out as quite positive:
The steady influx of pilgrims to Medjugorje is "a phenomenon that must be taken seriously," Msgr. Zovkic said. The faithful who come to Medjugorje to receive the sacraments deserve proper pastoral attention from the local priests and bishops, and the many reports from pilgrims who experienced a spiritual renewal there should be taken into account, he said.
The articles reports that the commission would likely "include members from the different regions of the former Yugoslavia as well as others appointed by the Holy See."
And some more good news... it is widely speculated that "The Church is not likely to make any final conclusion on the authenticity of the reported Marian apparitions at Medjugorje, Msgr. Zovkic said, until the "seers" report that those apparitions have ended."
As one Bishop who believed in the apparitions said, "The Church does not hurry." We should be thankful for that.
The article ends with an excellent point: "...the Church wishes to preserve whatever spiritual fruits the pilgrimages have brought forth."
God bless!

New Church commission to study Medjugorje
Sep. 06 (CWNews.com) - Church leaders in Bosnia-Herzegovina plan to assemble a commission to study the effects of pilgrimages to Medjugorje.
Msgr. Mato Zovkic, the vicar general of the Sarajevo archdiocese, confirmed the plans for a study commission during a September 5 conversation with the I Media news service in Rome. He said that the bishops' plans had been discussed this summer with Archbishop Alessandro D'Errico, the apostolic nuncio in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
A 1972 Vatican document sets out the procedures to be followed in investigating the authenticity of extraordinary claims, such as the reported appearances of the Virgin Mary at Medjurorje. The document calls for examination of three questions. First, Church officials are called to assess the phenomena themselves, and the people who report them, looking for evidence of authenticity. Next they are to study any message that is associated with the extraordinary reports, to ascertain whether that message conforms to orthodox Church teaching.
Msgr. Zovkic said that Church leaders are now tackling the third question raised by the document, appraising the pastoral implications of the phenomena, by studying the "fruits" of the reported apparitions. He explained that the study commission will attempt to answer several related question: What are the experiences of pilgrims who visit Medjugorje? What motivates some people to make repeated visits there? What effect does their pilgrimage have upon the way they live after they return home? These questions contribute to the overall appraisal of the reported apparitions.
In 1991, a commission set up by the bishops of what was then Yugoslavia reached the conclusion that there was no clear evidence of extraordinary events at Medjugorje, saying that the study "could not confirm the supernatural character" of the alleged Marian apparitions. The commission recommended a follow-up study to determine whether or not the pilgrimages to Medjugorje were promoting a firm adherence to the norms of Church teaching and liturgical discipline.
However, the plans for that second study were disrupted by the outbreak of civil war in Yugoslavia. After years of bloodshed the country disintegrated and the newly independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina emerged. Now that peace has been restored, and pilgrimages to Medjugorje continue, the Holy See encouraged the formation of a pastoral commission to continue the study, Msgr. Zovkic reported. The commission is to be established under the jurisdiction of the local ordinary, Bishop Ratko Peric, in conjunction with the nation's episcopal conference.
The steady influx of pilgrims to Medjugorje is "a phenomenon that must be taken seriously," Msgr. Zovkic said. The faithful who come to Medjugorje to receive the sacraments deserve proper pastoral attention from the local priests and bishops, and the many reports from pilgrims who experienced a spiritual renewal there should be taken into account, he said.
The composition of the new investigating commission has not yet been settled, Msgr. Zovkic reported. He predicted that it might take several months to choose the members of the panel, including experts in liturgy, Mariology, and theology. In all likelihood, he said, the commission would include members from the different regions of the former Yugoslavia as well as others appointed by the Holy See. In July, Cardinal Vinko Puljic of Sarajevo said that the bishops of Bosnia-Herzegovina were waiting for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to recommend theologians for the panel. That Congregation has not offered any public comment on the planned inquiry, although sources there acknowledge that a new study is underway.
The Church is not likely to make any final conclusion on the authenticity of the reported Marian apparitions at Medjugorje, Msgr. Zovkic said, until the "seers" report that those apparitions have ended. To date the seers have continued to say that the Virgin Mary appears to them daily, 25 years after the first such reports.
Millions of pilgrims have traveled to Medjugorje, a village in western Herzegovina, since the first reports of apparitions on June 24, 1981. Two commissions established by Church authorities-- one at the diocesan level in 1982, and another by the Yugoslavian bishops' conference-- have cast doubts on the authenticity of the reported apparitions. Nevertheless, Msgr. Zovkic emphasizes, the Church wishes to preserve whatever spiritual fruits the pilgrimages have brought forth.

Thanks Global. I've always like that site but hadn't checked back there recently.

http://www.crownofstars.blogspot.com
This is the link to Fr. Tomislav's article.

GlobalCatholic,
Could you please give us the link to this excellent summation by Fr. Pervan. Thanks and God bless.

I thought you all might like to read this excellent commentary from Fr. Tomislav Pervan, who is quite clearly a deeply intellectual man.
Fr Tomislav Pervan speaks on Medjugorje
In Remembrance of the 25th Anniversary
of the Events in Medjugorje
by Dr. Tomislav Pervan, OFM
For the past twenty-five years, Medjugorje has been an actuality on the world scene. Today, it has its zealous advocates; however, it also has its fierce opponents. Opposing front lines in the battle are not likely to sue for peace any time soon. Advocates are tireless in their visits to Medjugorje all the while believing the authentic voice of Heaven is the starting point, namely, the appearance of the Gospa—Our Lady. Meanwhile, the opponents are fierce in their opposition and seek out elements of contention surrounding the entire set of events.
In the meantime, the ever-increasing daily flow of pilgrims to this place does not allow us to be indifferent. Facts and numbers speak for themselves. The number of pilgrims is ever increasing. They come from all corners of the earth, are of all colours of skin, and from all nations and nationalities. While other places of pilgrimage mark a decrease in pilgrims and pilgrimages despite being advertised widely, the number of pilgrims and faithful of all languages and locales constantly increases. As a phenomenon, Medjugorje does not have an active propaganda machine: individuals spread its fame by word-of-mouth, witness, and personal experience.
On the one hand, the priests who work in Medjugorje feel they are over-burdened in their daily work and that they are stretched to their physical limits. They are faced with innumerable calls for personal counseling, endless confessions, and constant evangelization. On the other hand, they are also faced with the suspicion that they are teetering at the edge of heterodoxy. The constant criticism is hurled at them that they are fostering something that is contrary to the Church, namely, the non-existent apparitions and the like. We, on the other hand, cannot fail to speak, fail to give witness about that which we have heard or seen, or that which we experience daily by way of our senses. (Cf. Acts 4:20) Hence, we invite all to come and see. So many bishops and priests had their doubts; however, after many hours of hearing confessions, they changed their minds and the doubts vanished.
The voice of conscience forces upon us the obligation to be of assistance to those who are in misery and who come here. We wish to be in harmony with the Church to the very end, and not to sin against the Church's teachings or practice. Meanwhile, the accusations and reproaches hurt. Quite frequently, questions are raised that ask: What need did we have of all of this? Were we not able to be as every other parish, that is, carry out the well-entrenched pastoral patterns within the usual norms of the Church and Gospels? Who was it that cooked this stew, such that, to this very day, the river of pilgrims has not dried up, but, to the contrary, continues to grow greater and more dynamic?
For this reason, and as a friend and participant of these events from their beginnings in 1981, I give consideration to what must be done to change the present situations to escape the entrenched position of persistent denial, constant disputation, or, in fact, indifference and silence on the part of the Church's media all of this while the flow of thousands of pilgrims to this place continues. It is obvious that all the denials, disputations, and silence find no acceptance on the part of the faithful. Meanwhile, Church circles continue to be deaf, and the prohibition against this activity on the part the faithful persists on the part of the media.
It is the inner voice of conscience and the experience of faith that motivate the faithful. I am convinced that the Holy Spirit Himself is the initiator of all these events. I am further convinced that, after twenty-five years have passed, the principle of the locus theologicus (the theological position), according to the notion of the sensus fidelium (understanding on the part of the faithful) and the consensus fidelium (unanimity of the faithful), applies as offered for acceptance by the documents of Vatican II and post-Vatican II, and by statements of Popes following the Council. Things we read about in the Acts of the Apostles are happening here. I am convinced that the Church is being gathered in this place from the four winds and every corner of the earth into the one Kingdom as what took place in Jerusalem at Pentecost. In this place, we find mirrored the universal—“Catholic” Church in miniature.
It is in this sense that I believe the instruction of the Congregation for the Faith entitled, The Criteria for Judging and Differentiating Revelations and Apparitions, dated the 27th of February, 1978, and signed by the then Prefect, Cardinal Franjo Seper, should serve as the vade mecum (that is, the constant companion, the manual) when considering, passing judgment upon, and making decisions about Medjugorje and the Medjugorje phenomenon. The text has lost nothing of its immediacy and value to this very day. It can be fully applied to the events of Medjugorje with all its implications. It can examine the events of Medjugorje from the positive or negative side with all the arguments presented pro and con.
The Congregation for the Faith in its instructions reduces to three levels, or degrees, the norms that relate to reactions to alleged apparitions.
The seers must be examined to determine if, perhaps, it is a question of self-styled visions. Then, all the messages must be gathered and examined and viewed from the point of view of the degree of education of the seers. The mental and physical state of the seers must be examined thoroughly, as well as their moral integrity. All that is explainable from the purely human point of view must be taken into consideration; however, by the same token, all that cannot be explained in purely human terms and with the aid of the most contemporary psychological or physical sciences, and which, in the end, has no cause within human power, must also be taken into consideration.
Following the first phase, if the matter has not died on its own, has not come to a halt or fallen into oblivion, the principle ad experimentum (for the purpose of experiment) comes into play. At the same time, of course, it must be emphasized that the employment of this principle in no way suggests or recognizes the authenticity of the alleged apparitions. It simply channels events to proper and healthy Church routine: practices regarding prayer, devotions, the sacraments, constant spiritual growth and holiness.
When an appropriate period of the ad experimentum phase has elapsed, and in the light of experiences, especially after a close examination of the spiritual fruits occasioned by the alleged apparitions, and of the devotional practices surrounding them, a competent judgment of the events must be given if circumstances demand it.
As regards the first point, everything can be reduced to a simple conclusion: To the present day, in the entire history of the Church, no Marian apparitions were so intensively and extensively investigated (from 1984-2005) on the part of numerous and independent qualified, international experts in the fields of medicine and psychology, or whose investigations and their results were found to correspond to and compliment each other. All of the experts concluded that the subjects investigated were found to be spiritually, psychologically, and physically healthy individuals. They were found not to be hallucinating, subject to confabulation, (auto) suggestion, hysteria, hypnotic or other loss of consciousness, deceit, suggestion or exterior inducement of any sort. Hence, it is irresponsible to publicly proclaim them to be liars or inventors of false visions and messages.
Many experts from the fields of medicine, psychology, and parapsychology have occupied themselves with the Medjugorje seers. They failed to uncover any sort of pathological deviation from the norm in their lives. The scientific experts are capable of reaching the full limit of their tests. However, once they have arrived at that limit, their ability to explain ceases. They are able to discern what does or does not pertain to medicine and pathology and what must be excluded from a medico-psychological perspective. The experts have done so and have left behind a record of their findings. Because of that, and because of intellectual honesty, we, who have regard for the truth, must take their investigations and judgments as to the phenomena of Medjugorje into serious account.
The convergent proofs in favour of the authenticity of the Medjugorje phenomenon are perceptible when one takes into consideration the theological, sociological and scientific experiments carried out upon the seers by French, Italian, and Austrian teams of experts from 1984 through 2005. According to the theologian and Mariologist, R. Laurentin, who has published works of capital value (17 books) on Lourdes, and has thoroughly investigated the apparitions in Medjugorje, the latter give evidence of being more powerful as regards the proof of their authenticity than those in Lourdes, to which the Church gave its formal approval.
According to the teaching of St. Ignatius on discernment of spirits, the causes of those or similar manifestations can be determined to be purely human, divine, or demonic. Effects must always be judged by their cause. In all that took place in Medjugorje, one must ask what the cause was, or where the causal beginnings had their roots. If we take into consideration the first days of the events that took place in Bijakovici in June and July of 1981, the experts who thoroughly examined the seers concluded that the seers had some sort of fundamental and key experience, some initial encounter that put them into the center of something that they could not begin to imagine or foresee, something against their will or inclinations, something they were scarcely able to predict.
Science as such can neither confirm nor deny whether the Gospa is, or is not, appearing, (just as it would not have been able to utilize scientific instruments to register the resurrection of Christ were they to have been present alongside the Roman guards at the tomb of Jesus). All that science can say after twenty-five years is that the seers are physically and psychologically healthy, and that the seers had a deep-seated and far-reaching experience which continues to affect them to this very day, one that it is impossible to deduce from their biographies. All of that is, for the visionaries, a holy treasure. For that reason one must exclude a purely human cause, and, by the same token, one that is demonic, inasmuch as the Devil is unable to yield good fruit that is constant and so long lasting.
Since twenty-five years have elapsed, a review sine ira et studio (without rancor and [with] diligent attention) would be expedient, both in the local Church and the Church at large, as to the fruits which have been given and continue to be given through Mary's apparitions beyond all ideological suppositions and prejudices. When observed from the purely statistical point of view as a whole, close to some fifty thousand priest have passed through Medjugorje, hundreds of bishops, cardinals, and millions upon millions of the faithful. The Una Sancta et Catholica (the One Holy and Catholic [Church]) in miniature comes to pass here every day. Were there something to be found heretical, schismatic, or contrary to Church teaching, the Church would be obliged to undertake measures against such abuse. That has not resulted up to the present. Therefore, a fifteen-year ad experimentum period since the Zadar Pronouncement in 1991 is a sufficient amount of time so as to allow to conclude that no straying from official Church teaching and practice is taking place in Medjugorje. The Liturgy and devotions celebrated there are fully Christological, Marian, Eucharistic, sacramental, and in full harmony with Church regulations.
It cannot be asserted that the particular fruits of Medjugorje are those of intensive prayer and administration of the sacraments. To do so would be to create a circulus vitiosus (vicious circle): there are other places in the world where prayer and the sacraments are a fixed practice; however, what is lacking there are the efficacious effects that we note as attributable to Medjugorje. It is clear that prayer and the sacraments bear copious fruits for the entire Church throughout the world; however, from where and why do so many people come precisely to Medjugorje? Why do they come to this remote place where they have a concrete experience of God and grace, are converted, learn to pray, and subsequently carry the fruits of Medjugorje to their homes, give witness to what they have experienced, and become missionaries? It simply is not possible to separate the assertions of the seers regarding the apparitions from the fruits of the apparitions which we see in the Church.
The consensus fidei et fidelium can be seen by the fact that all levels of God's people, all classes in society and the Church, all peoples, and all races are represented in Medjugorje, and by the fact that Church life is sustained by all of this in the form of witness, divine worship, sincere service, charity, (martyria, liturgia, et diakonia), and, by the fact that all grow in holiness. Medjugorje is a world-wide phenomenon. Its fruits can be seen in all parts of the world. In essence, Medjugorje is a laymen's movement, a movement of faithful laymen, laden with spirituality, devotion, and sincerity toward the Lord and our Lady. The seers themselves are ordinary lay people and, as such, are able more readily to touch the hearts of plain folks who easily identify with them.
Medjugorje is a peace and pilgrimage movement inasmuch as people come here for the sake of inner peace. It is also a renewal movement within the Church—Ecclesia semper reformanda (the Church ever to be renewed), as well as a humanitarian movement, inasmuch as it has accomplished tremendous charitable and Samaritan works throughout the world (a point made by the present Pope in his encyclical on the God of Love). Lumen Gentium (The Vatican II Document: Light of the Nations) clearly states: "Be they most illustrious, be they simple and more widespread, Charisms are useful and are especially suited to the needs of the Church and must be received with gratitude and consolidation." (LG 12:2) Meanwhile, Apostolicam Actuositatem (Apostolic Activity) states even more explicitly: "The receipt of Charisms, even those that are humble, give rise to the right and duty for each of the faithful to make use of them in the Church and in the world and for the good of mankind and the growth of the Church in the freedom of the Holy Ghost." (AA 3:3).
After the past quarter of a century, it can be asserted that Medjugorje is about a prophetic Charism—a prophetic revelation that calls for repentance. These Charisms are able to be found in all similar phenomena within the Church. Prophetic revelations and apparitions are about an imperative under the impetus of the Holy Spirit as to how one is to behave here and now, and what it is that the People of God must do in a specific situation. Accordingly, the Church must not relate to such phenomena indifferently. She is duty-bound to investigate such an imperative with openness and, congruently, to act if she recognizes the Will of God in the said phenomenon. It is obvious that the Ecclesia orans (the praying Church) has recognized God's Will and Mary's presence in this instance, of which our dearly departed Pope spoke in his homily in Zadar (!) three years prior, on the feast of Mary, the Mother of the Church (Pentecost Monday, 2003). On that occasion, the Pope specifically mentioned the above cited sensus fidei fidelium (the understanding of faith of the faithful).
If, as is the case with ordinary beatifications and canonizations, the process begins with the local Church, and, after an appropriate interval of time, investigation, and conclusions based on the materials offered in favor of beatification or canonization, the matter is transferred to Rome, I think that would be appropriate in this case. After all has been investigated at the local level, the entire case of the Medjugorje phenomenon should be transferred to the appropriate Roman dicastery, especially in light of the fact that it has outgrown the local Church's boundaries and has become widespread so as to encompass the entire Church. The countless prayer groups throughout the entire world have come into existence because of the events in Medjugorje. They carry the mark of authenticity and veracity. The entire phenomenon is caught-up in the very being of the Church and, as such, carries more weight than does a beatification of one of God's chosen ones. If, as is the case for beatification, the People of God are asked their approval, why shouldn't we do so in this case as well, especially in light of Mary's efficacious presence in specific places (John Paul II, in Zadar!), and in light of the personal experiences and miracles that individuals experienced precisely here in Medjugorje?
Throughout the entire history of Salvation, God has established communication with his creatures through apparitions. This form of communication is especially suitable for man's physico-spiritual structure: it immerses man's senses, especially his sight and hearing. The Medjugorje phenomenon can be explained in this manner or that manner; however, intellectual honesty demands that the entire affair engage us in light of revelation, mysticism, supernatural experiences and so many other similar experiences in other cases, and, for that matter, in other faiths.
If God has truly spoken throughout history, why should we be exempted from such a manner of communication wherein the Holy Ghost makes use of apparitions for the sake of the many needs of the contemporary world? The greater the misery in the world, so much the greater is the need for God's voice and communication. Hence, we might well conclude as did Paul: Do not extinguish the spirit. Do not disdain prophetic communications. Investigate all and hold on to what is good! (1 Thess. 5:19-21).
Medjugorje, July 13, 2006
Fr Tomislav Pervan OFM
Former Pastor of Medjugorje (1982-1988) Former Provincial of the Franciscans (OFM) in Hercegovina (1994-2001)

1 Corinthians 4:2-5
Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

First reading 1 Corinthians 1:26 - 31 ©
Take yourselves for instance, brothers, at the time when you were called: how many of you were wise in the ordinary sense of the word, how many were influential people, or came from noble families? No, it was to shame the wise that God chose what is foolish by human reckoning, and to shame what is strong that he chose what is weak by human reckoning; those whom the world thinks common and contemptible are the ones that God has chosen – those who are nothing at all to show up those who are everything.

THE WORDS OF FRANTISEK TOMASEK, CARDINAL OF PRAGUE
"I think that we here are indebted to the events of Medjugorje for this huge new springtime of our faith, that God has given us through Mary. Prayer and fasting, faith and conversion,and then the invitation to peace, this can only come from God. I have many people who have been on pilgrimmage to Medjugorje. They are full of hope, and willingness to testify and bear witness to their faith. I know many prayer groups who have shown me how they pray and fast, and this began in Medjugorje. The people are hungry and thirsty for the Word of God. And whenever people in whatever way set up obstacles, God always finds a way to seek out and gather His children together. I am deeply thankful to God for Medjugorje. And I think that it fits in very well to the seventieth anniversary of Our Lady's apparitions in Fatima, in this Marian year. Putting it simply, I hear very much, but I am always desirous of hearing more about Medjugorje. Oh how I would love to go on pilgrimmage to Medjugorje, and drink of this new water. Many of my faithful would love to do likewise..."

DECLARATION OF CROATIAN CARDINAL DR. FRANJO KUHARIC ON MEDJUGORJE
"We bishops, after a three-year-long commission study accept Medjugorje as a holy place, as a shrine. This means that we have nothing against it if someone venerates the Mother of God in a manner also in agreement with the teaching and belief of the Church. . .Therefore, we are leaving that to further study. The Church does not hurry."

The argument on this thread seems to be that Medjugorje could be a deception by Satan; it seems that most skeptics of the apparitions are at least acknowledging the fact that something supernatural is taking place, based on the profound medical tests done on the visionaries which show this.
Check out what Rome's chief excorcist -- Father Gabriel Amorth -- had to say about Medjugorje when he went there in 2002. If anyone can identify Satan, it would be Fr. Amorth. (you have probably seen some of his books, like "An Excorcist Tells His Story" published by Ignatius Press).
Here is a link to an interview with him:
http://www.medjugorje.org/framorth1.htm
In short, Fr. Amorth makes the following comments in the interview:
- "Medjugorje is a fortress against Satan. Satan hates Medjugorje because it is a place of conversion, of prayer, of transformation of life."
- "Medjugorje is really a place where one learns to pray, but also to sacrifice oneself, where people are converted and change their lives. The influence of Medjugorje is worldwide. It is enough to think about how many prayer groups came about thanks to the inspiration of Medjugorje. I also lead a prayer group, which was founded in 1984. This group is already 18 years old. We live one afternoon as it is lived in Medjugorje. There are always 700 or 750 people. We always meditate on Our Lady’s message of the 25th of the month and I always read this message in relation to a sentence from the Gospel, because Our Lady does not say anything new. She invites us to do what Jesus thought us to do. Groups like mine exist all over the world."
- "First in Fatima and now here in Medjugorje, Our Lady speaks often about prayer and fasting. I think that this is very important, because contemporary men are following the spirit of consumerism."
- "I always understood Medjugorje as a continuation of Fatima. According to Our Lady’s words in Fatima, if we had prayed and fasted, there would not have been World War II. We have not listened to her and therefore there was a war. Also here in Medjugorje, Our Lady often calls to prayer for peace. In her apparitions, Our Lady always presents herself under another name to show the goal of her apparitions. At Lourdes, she presented herself as the Immaculate Conception, in Fatima as the Queen of the Holy Rosary. Here in Medjugorje, Our Lady presented herself as the Queen of Peace. We all remember the words “Mir, mir, mir” (peace, peace, peace) that were written in the sky at the very beginning of the apparitions. We see clearly that humanity is running the risk of war, and Our Lady insists on prayer and on Christian life to attain peace."
- "The “testament” of Mary, her last words written in the Gospel, are “Do whatever he tells you”. Here in Medjugorje, Our Lady insists again that the laws of the Gospel are respected. The Eucharist is at the centre of all Medjugorje groups, because Our Lady always leads to Jesus. This is her main concern: to make us live the words of Jesus. This is what I wish to everyone."
So, who can be believed on the subject of Medjugorje if not the Vatican's chief excorcist, who has been there many times himself?

Read in : http://www.marian-times.com/articles/medjugorje/ne...
" Apologies:
I realise that it is not my place to pass any type of judgement or even say anything against a member of the clergy. If I have offended God or borne any false witness against the Bishops of Mostar, I hearby apologise and humbly ask God's forgiveness.
Paul Baylis, Marian-Times. "

Wow, reading some of the other posts just bears out how far misled people have become on Medjugorje, in what appears to be solely through the efforts of certain quarters of the media, i.e. the debunkers. It all started with Pavao Zanic unfortunately and then carried on by E Michael Jones who seemed to bathe in the warmth of the approval of Zanic and Peric, and then carried on by Unity Publishing etc, etc. It's a big bunch of hoogama-hogwash.
Let me respond to ml....
[quoting ml]
They are going to go over the evidence and decide, for instance, whether the Virgin Mary would defend two priests who had been stripped of faculties with the approval of the Pope.
[unquote]
You apparently know so little about the events transpiring between the secular bishops and the Franciscans in the Herzegovina region since the 1800's. They have been at each others throats for centuries. There is an article called "The Truth about the Herzegovinian Affair". People should be required to read this before making ANY comments about secular bishops or Franciscans because it is VERY NASTY AND COMPLICATED!
[quoting ml]
In 1981, Fr. Ivica Vego and Fr. Ivan Prusina, Franciscan priests in Mostar who were causing a great deal of trouble for Bishop Zanic regarding the implementation of Romanis pontificibus, were stripped of their faculties, expelled from the Franciscan order, and suspended "a divinis" with the authorization of Pope John Paul II.
[/unquote]
You have evidently been reading Unity Publishing or one of his sources. You have been conned by slanted, out-of-context one-sided reporting which characterises these websites. Prusina and Vego were victims of the Bishop of Mostar and his unpopularity. The local parishioners didn't want to be taken over by the seculars, especially in the manner in which the Bishop or Mostar wanted to take over. It was akin to a military operation. He wanted the Franciscans not only to hand over all their parishes (and through some slight of hand managed to con the vatican into ordering the handover), but he wanted them as far gone as possible, even refusing to allow some to temporarily take refuge in his parish. The local parishioners loved the Franciscans and didn't want to receive the sacraments from the seculars. Prusina and Vego agreed to administer the sacraments to them in private, which they agreed to. Of course, once the Bishop of Mostar heard about this, all hell broke loose.
People, please get the facts. Please don't be swayed by detractors. They are VERY CUNNING in how they will take things out of context. I have already commented on how unity publishing took a comment of Our Lady's regarding the equality of religions to make it into something sacreligious. I don't have time to go into it all here. If you have time, please read my articles on http://www.marian-times.com. It is as clear as day and you will quickly see how people have been fooled.
Many people find it hard to believe that the media would deliberately smear Medjugorje without good cause. Ha! The Wanderer has admitted that they told outright lies and kept an untruthful story alive for a long time with respect to Father Jozo Zovko. THE DEVIL IS SURELY AT WORK. PLEASE BE CAREFUL.

I also see several people showing URL's from the likes of Unity Publishing. This entity is more dangerous than any false apparition because they are relying on rumour, inneundo and outright lies and are, to use a couple of rude words (sorry Lord), "pushing shit uphill". I have written extensive refutations, most of them not even my own but which have been long-known, but little published because there is a cult of the "maverick crime-buster reporter" happening at the moment, with people getting their kicks trying to uncover mystery and intrigue. This is never a good thing.
Unity Publishing have outdated information on their site and I have told them about it time and time again, but they have outrightly refused to update it.
Regardless, back to my previous point, everything Unity Publishing objects to, I have refuted on my website http://www.marian-times.com.

I think it is highly unlikely that B16 will back Ratko Peric. It should be common knowledge by now (but unfortunately isn't) that the Bishop of Mostar is in the outer circle as regards Medjugorje and he is crusading from a dark corner. I have seen some detraction websites posting billboard headlines such as "Church condemns Medjugorje" followed up by Ratko Peric interviews and speeches. People are fooled, not unnderstanding the situation with the Bishops of Mostar. We have to wonder how a Bishop can rant and rave for his own cause instead of silently allowing the Vatican process to unfold.
It is also common knowledge that the Vatican dismissed Zanic's findings and handed the matter over to the Yugoslav Bishops conference which, as a face saving gesture to Zanic, gave the now-famous Zadar Declaration which amounts to "Something is going on which we believe is supernatural, but unfortunately we cannot PROVE it just yet".
My sources tell me that the Yugoslav Bishops Conference approached Zanic with their intention to approve the apparitions, but that he screamed and cried so much that they gave up this intention and hence the wishy-washy Zadar Declaration. The conference also tried to drag the investigation out over a long period, hoping the apparitions would cease. But they just kept on going. They had no choice but to declare something.
Yes, I do personally believe that B16 is a closet Medjugorje fanatic. And it's not just a gut feeling. There is plenty of documentart evidence for this. His discussion with Cardinal Schoenborn are well documented, in which he expressed to B16 (then Card. Ratz) his concerns that if Medjugorje was closed then he would have to close his seminary at Vienna because the vast majority of seminarians in his Vienna cathedral because most of them received their calling through Medjugorje. To this, Card. Ratz replied "Closing Medjugorje is never a issue". There are also trustworthy reports of discussions with Ratz. and JPII by various Bishops who expressed their concerns about Medjugorje not being approved because they either wanted to travel there or they wanted to undertake projects relating to Medjugorje. Ratz and JPII have both been reported to comment along the lines of "Don't worry about Medjugorje, just look after the fruits". JPII and Ratz, both LOVE LOVE LOVE the effect of Medjugorje on the Catholic Church in terms of the numbers of new vocations that it is generating.
My website discusses much more on these issues. If you have time, please visit http://www.marian-times.com.
Thank you

#200
MIR!!! Yea GOSPA!!!

Quousque tandem abutere, AnonymusChrisK, patientia nostra ?
AnonymusChrisK (ACK),
28 days, two interventions on Diane's blog [http://te-deum.blogspot.com/ - July 12 and 13] and a few on this blog have passed and I do not have yet your response to my challenge. Yet you answered indirectly [July 31] in a post to ML by qualifying one fact that I brought as "bunk/spin" and… by avoiding again a serious discussion on that fact.
Some interventions from you verge on lack of respect, scorn and denigration. [the local bishop blabbing about personal conversations... obsessive Medj. debunkers... obsessive conspiratorial types... Mr. Foley is another obsessed debunker... You appear far too aggitated and rather obsessed with proving a negative... You just choose to rely on those worn out and embittered sources... I suppose some people just have a penchant for being argumentative and disagreeable!.. those very limited and incomplete notoriously debunking books and sites... You're beginning to sound a bit like the other conspiracy type chosen above... Enough pearls in the muck here... Now, you guys are running in circles of repetition with nothing new to offer... And since it is just that stubborn refusal to reference anything but those with obvious problems of conspiracy theories and gossip that gets us nowhere, I shall retire from this chamber of noise... Nite, nite! ml and Diane can prolong their mutual admiration society of negative packing bishops and their debunking sources. This has gotten rather obsessive in itself!!... A little charity would show much more from the debunking side rather than to promote falsehoods and incomplete history... It was the known dishonesty of packing those former commissions with both unqualified and prejudiced members (the second was called to correct that mistake in the first and just did the same) and Have fun debunking. Enough pearls lost in the muck on this thread! --- in response to ml, AmyWelborn's blog, 2006-07-27]
You, ACK, despise your interlocutor when you insinuate a doubt about his intellectual integrity : "Hey, if you write an entire book on the subject, promoting yourself and its title quite often, you're not supposed to be challenged by people with long term actual experience ... up close and personal?" First, the "personal experience" of anyone pilgrim does not concern my challenge, here. Have you read anywhere that I had no respect for it or that I even discussed it ? Second, regarding the "promotion" of myself : I tried, as many did on this blog, to express something significant about the background of my intentions and motivations, at least to say that I don't hide away in an ivory tower, as a researcher and critique on Medjugorje, and not as a debunker as you qualify me to denigrate my role. Third, regarding the "promotion" of the book : again, you don't seem to appreciate the excerpts of the book I use to back up my argumentation. Again, you denigrate my gesture by considering it a "promotion". It would be a promotion if I would say : "Buy the book and you will find the argument and the source of the argument I don't want to write down, here." Instead, I quote the argument and the complete source in such a way that people don't have to buy the book to understand my point. Is it not respect for the interlocutor to inform correctly and give the tools to permit her/him to decide freely by herself/himself what she/he should think about the subject ?
I have observed that you, ACK, in this blog and in others, as "Anonymus" or as "Chris K", use the detestable tactics of denigrating your interlocutor by choosing ad hominem labels or descriptions that attack the person to diminish his/her credibility or the one of the legitimate authority he/she is quoting [debunker, obsessive conspiratorial, negative packing bishops, unqualified and prejudiced members (of the commission)…] instead of coping with an argument you dislike or you don't want or are not able to confront. These well known tactics in the world of magic try to distract the attention of the observer to something else unimportant, to present as true what is really a trick... of persuasion. You persist in your last post by accepting unconditionally the words coming from outsiders, a bishop from Korea and another from Brazil, while rejecting the ad limina report of Bishop Peric, the legitimate authority, as "blabbing about personal conversations" with the Pope. If I understand you correctly, I have to choose between incoherence in your argumentation --- what are truthful and credible words from two bishops, outsiders, is simple blabbing from the one in charge of the diocese concerned with the events --- or mean tactics to denigrate the legitimate authority.
We must take seriously the challenge to cope with the facts. This is what the members of the commissions have done since the beginning of the events of Medjugorje and this is what they will do for what seems to be the last round. To pretend that these members are a bunch of dishonestly chosen incompetent, unqualified and prejudiced persons does not at all confer seriousness and credibility to the accusers.
Much is at stake at the present hour : the legitimate Magisterium and it's credibility on one side, the defamers with their discourse and agenda on the other side. Guess who will have lost the most after the verdict will be announced ! It would be wise to prepare oneself for that painful moment of truth.
God Bless !
Louis

chris k,
"And who is doing that?"
If you concede that you are not promoting Medjugorje as authentic I accept that.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Is it the mind of the Church that you can promote Medjugorje as authentic?
And who is doing that? People may be giving their personal beliefs or experiences from their private visits. They may be showing pictures of the area or be relating the history of events, including the various phenomena or conversions (Fr. Laurentin is one of them). So what? The Vatican is well aware of all of these personal reports - in fact, the ongoing study has to include all of these factors and reports. Otherwise there would be no related "miracles", documented by medical science as being related to Medj. pilgrimages to study. There would be no ability to look at the worldwide effects or fruits, or documented phenomena, etc.
And Mary, I think you know that any pope cannot officially give his personal judgment or beliefs on an apparition site while it is still under investigation or still open for further investigation at any time. He could not include them in his public writings during his pontificate while things are still being investigated. But this pope did give his personal feelings in private to many...with some now documented in writing.
As for John Paul II’s support, he was at least a model of circumspection and restraint with respect to the promotion of the site, if in fact, he did actually believe in the authenticity of the “apparitions.”
Not really. Many, many statements have been attributed to JPII by many priests, pilgrims, bishops and cardinals who were either admonished to visit there or were inquired about after pilgrimages. Various bishops have been quoted with JPII mentioning Medj. as a spiritual center for prayer, is a continuation of Fatima, is saving the Church in the West, etc.
examples for what they're worth to you, many now in writing:
In the Korean Catholic weekly "Catholic News" from the 11th November 1990 an interview with Mons. Angelo Kim Nam Soo President of BK Korea was published. He had been at a luncheon audience with Pope John Paul II together with six other bishops on Oct 15th that year. Mons. Kim recalls that, "words of praise were addressed to the Pope regarding the change brought about in Eastern Europe. The Pope replied with a smile that he hadn't done much, rather, it was a work of providence from above, and it was carried out in accordance with the promise of Our Lady of Fatima. The Pope continued that the account of Our Lady of Fatima is private revelation and said that it differed fundamentally from public revelation. He also used the example of Our Lady's apparitions in Medjugorje, and commented on how wonderful it is that despite some Bishops opposition, many people visit there, are converted and favored with God's grace. He then smiled"
Mons. Maurillo Kreiger, former bishop of Florianopolis (Brazil), visited Medjugorje four times. His first visit was in 1986. He writes as follows: "In 1988, I was with eight other bishops and thirty three priests on spiritual retreat in the Vatican. The Holy Father knew that many of us were going to Medjugorje afterwards. After a private mass with the Pope, before leaving Rome, he said, without having been asked anything, "PRAY FOR ME IN MEDJUGORJE". On another occasion, I told the Pope "I am going to Medjugorje for the fourth time". He concentrated his thoughts and said, "MEDJUGORJE, MEDJUGORJE, IT'S THE SPIRITUAL HEART OF THE WORLD". On the same day I spoke with other Brazilian bishops and the Pope at lunch time and I asked him: "Your holiness, can I tell the visionaries that you send your blessing?" He answered: "YES YES", and embraced me.
"MEDJUGORJE IS A GREAT CENTRE OF SPIRITUALITY!" - The Holy Father's comment during a February 1990 conversation, as reported by Bishop Murilo Krieger, Auxiliary Bishop of Florianopolis, Brazil, made prior to His Grace's fourth Medjugorje pilgrimage. The Holy Father assented to Bishop Krieger's request and gave his papal blessing to the visionaries (National Catholic Register, April 29,1990)
"IF I WASN'T THE POPE, I'D BE IN MEDJUGORJE ALREADY!" - Reported April 21, 1989 by Bishop Paul Hnilica, SJ, Auxiliary Bishop of Rome, after having been admonished by the Holy Father for not stopping in Medjugorje on his return trip to Rome from a meeting in Moscow on behalf of the Pope.
During his visit to the area itself his entourage visited the site. He was not invited by the local bishop. A pope does not get officially involved otherwise while a site is still under discussion. He would have loved to visit Russia too but was not officially invited there either by the Orthodox. Other than that there are those documented personal letters from the pope to one of his Polish collaborators and friend, and his wife. The letters are quoted. He not only demonstrates his belief but his deep affection for Medj. The wife began a Medj. movement in Poland during the time of the Solidarity Movement which gave this group hope to carry on. These letters are now facts which were written about in an issue of Newsweek in 2005. The Croatian President himself spoke about JPII's stated desire to him to visit Medj.
Those letters have been authenticated and published in Poland in Oct. 2005:
The actual letters may be included in an upcoming book by Marek, a well-known Polish journalist who first met John Paul II when the future pontiff was a priest in 1958 and served as John Paul II's poetry editor, collaborating with him on the final issue of the meditations, Roman Triptych. Skwarnicki's career largely was spent working on the editorial board as an editor and reporter for the weekly Tygodnik Powszechny and a monthly called Znak, published in Krakow.
The nationwide weekly and monthly were founded by Krakow Cardinal Sapieha, who was predecessor of the future Pope, Karol Wojtyla. The Pope published all of his poems and some articles in the publications. Marek is also a member of the Pontifical Council of Laity and was present on twenty of the Pope's trips, covering them as a journalist and esteemed author.
Born in 1930, Skwarnicki took part as a boy in the Warsaw Uprising and was arrested by Gestapo, who sent him to a concentration camp called Mauthausen. His wife Sofia was one of the first pilgrim leaders to Medjugorje, largely responsible for sparking interest in Medjugorje in Eastern Europe.
"My wife received information about the apparition in October of 1983", and succeeded in getting two books about Medjugorje published at the same time that she developed an involvement with the trade union, Solidarity -- which was crucial in the downfall of Communism. "News from Medjugorje gave the suppressed Catholic society hope," recalls Marek, whose wife started the first bulletin on the apparitions in Poland -- no doubt contributing to the Pope's interest in the site of apparitions, which he prevented from being rejected by a hostile local bishop later in the 1980s.
The Pope mentioned Medjugorje in another letter on February 25, 1994, making reference to the war in former Yugoslavia. "Zofia writes about the Balkans," said the Pope. "Now we can better understand Medjugorje. We can better understand this mother's 'insistence' today, when we have the magnitude of such danger before our eyes. Equal is the answer of special prayer, prayer for the people of the whole world. It gives us a hope that here goodness will win, that peace is possible. That was the main idea of the prayer day, January 23."
First letter (translation from Polish):
Dear Mr. and Mrs. !
(...) And may everything go well on the way to Medjugorje-Rome.
With heartfelt blessings.
Vatican, March 30th,
Jan Pavel II
Second letter:
Dear Mr. Marek !
(...) And now we everyday return to Medjugorje in prayer.
Jan Pavel II
Vatican, May 28, 1992
Third letter:
On a Christmas card, handwritten
(...) I thank Mrs. Zofia for everything concerning Medjugorje. I, too, go there everyday as a pilgrim in my prayers: I unite in prayer with all those who pray there or receive a calling for prayer from there. Today we have understood this calling better. I rejoice that our time is not lacking people of prayer and apostles (...)
Jan Pavel II, Dec 8, 1992
Forth letter: Vatican, Feb. 25th, 1994
Dear Mr. and Mrs. (Skwarnicki)
I thank you very much for both letters. Mrs. Zofia is writing me about the Balkans. I guess Medjugorje is better understood these days. That sort of "urging" of the Mother is better understood today when we see with our very eyes the enormousness of the danger. At the same time, the response in the way of a special prayer - and that coming from the people of the whole world - fills us with hope that there, too, the good will prevail. Peace is possible - such was the motto of the day of prayer of January 23rd, prepared by a special session in the Vatican in which Mr. T. Mazowiecki also participated.
Perhaps it is thanks to this as well that Europe is coming back to its senses. People in Poland get back to their senses, too, as follows from your writing. Maybe it will become easier for them to come to terms with the Pope who has not preached "the victory of Democracy" but reminded them of the Decalogue. (...)
With blessings,
Jan Pavel II

Well, Chris K, I will take your word for it on the results of the scientific studies you mention but apparently, coupled with the content of the many messages and the events there over so many years, they did not carry sufficient weight to convince those investigating Medjugorje of supernaturalism. As for John Paul II’s support, he was at least a model of circumspection and restraint with respect to the promotion of the site, if in fact, he did actually believe in the authenticity of the “apparitions.” I have never read a direct statement from him indicating his support. I have seen quotes attributed to him from private conversation, but in his own prolific writing, his interviews and even his autobiographical work I don’t think any mention is made of Medjugorje. If those convinced of the authenticity of the “apparitions” were to emulate his manner of support, I could easily live with that. He respected the wishes of the bishops of the area and did not travel there himself though doubtless, if he was believer, he would have liked to and he certainly had the opportunity. He published nothing lending support to his personal beliefs about it, if in fact, they were as you say. He must have realized the scandal it would give to ecclesial communion and order in the Church. Would that all priests realized that! He seemed particularly devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. One of the most endearing photographs of him for me depicts him with her at her statue, his right hand tenderly at her arm, his body bent forward slightly as if listening intently to something she is telling him. As for all those credentialed experts who have promoted Medjugorje—you are correct—I am disinclined to trust overmuch in their expertise. Their claims have so far not convinced those involved in any of the official investigations of supernaturalism.

chris k,
Again, of course there is nothing more that can be repeated to you again if you are simply determined to obfuscate what is.
Ok, chris k, show us how genuine you are in your statements.
Is it the mind of the Church that you can promote Medjugorje as authentic?
If the answer is no, then think with the mind of the Church and don't.
If the answer is yes produce any document from the competent authority that proves your answer.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Inocencio, you are either being disingenuous in your statements or you just haven't digested all of the material that has been produced on the bishop's "opinion". You should know by now that the local bishop in his opinion goes beyond what the Vatican has accepted as the "wait and see" decision. Otherwise there would have been no need to not accept that opinion as the final ruling. That opinion that somehow you still feel is the last and final judgment:
What Bishop Peric said in his letter to the Secretary General of "Famille Chretienne", declaring: "My conviction and my position is not only 'non constat de supernaturalitate,' but likewise, 'constat de non supernaturalitate' of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje", should be considered the expression of the personal conviction of the Bishop of Mostar which he has the right to express as Ordinary of the place, but which is and remains his personal opinion.
We all know by now, hopefully, that that clarification was given by the CDF to clarify just how things stood re: that "just his opinion" declaration by the local bishop. That opinion is the condemning judgment that closes an apparition to any further examination (at least while that bishop is in authority). So, again to treat that opinion as the same as the neutral one, nuanced one given and followed for the last 15 years is, with all that has been written about it, some deliberate attempt on your part to rewrite or say something other than what the facts say. So, no, in this case the local bishop's "opinion" is not what is asked of the faithful and therefore not what should be followed. Again, of course there is nothing more that can be repeated to you again if you are simply determined to obfuscate what is.
If I am wrong in my understanding please produce any document from the CDF that overturns the local Ordinary's decision.
The Zadar declaration of the commission which is the nuanced one.

chris k,
"wait and see rather than condemnation"
Is only your opinion. The local Ordinary has been clear and the commissions have not changed his opinion that nothing supernatural is occuring. So yes I can clearly state 4-0 nothing supernatural is occuring and you can believe whatever you choose.
So, I, again, don't see your point.
My point is that even approved apparitions (Fatima, Lourdes, etc.) received their approval from the local Ordinary. Medjugorje has clearly not received that approval. Approved apparitions are confirmed by the Vatican only after the local Ordinary has given a positive decision and not over his negative decision. That is why I asked you if you knew of a case because I have never read of that occuring.
If I am wrong in my understanding please produce any document from the CDF that overturns the local Ordinary's decision.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

You left out the Greeters. I have a feeling they are Montanists too...

There is nothing new under the sun. This is just a new manifestation of an old heresy. Look at the parallels between the charismatic movement and Montanism. No less a believer than Tertullian(!) fell into this heresy.
The Montanists stressed prophecy and speaking in tongues. (If these were indeed normative, then the Church would not have opposed them on this.) They also pretended to speak for the Holy Spirit and held that their "prophecies" were authoritative, even if they contradicted Doctrine of the Church. Later Montanists eventually left Trinitarian belief and became Sabellians (exactly like what has happened among Pentecostals--the UPC, so called "Oneness Pentecostals," are Sabellian). Also, they had prophetesses. Pentecostals were the first Christians to ordain women, long before even the liberal Protestants. Pentacostalism is just a repeat of Montanism, and it has infected the Body of Christ. It must be removed like the cancer that it is before it is allowed to spread and do irreparable damage. St. Irenaeus of Lyon returned home from Rome to find that this heresy had taken root there and left his diocese in shambles. This was the immediate impetus for him to write "Adversus Haereses."
Medjugorje and Garabandal are nothing more than the new Prisca and Maximilla.
If Sts. Irenaeus, Eusebius, Augustine, or Jerome were here on earth today, I have no doubt that they would identify the charismatic movement with Montanism. I feel much more secure standing along side those saints than placing my faith in a devilish movement that has its origins in another heresy, Protestantism, and has already destroyed many a Protestant church and now finds itself as a malignant tumor inside Christ's own Body.
Just as in any time when heresy infects the Church, we are called to stand against it firmly and to mince no words in our condemnation of it. Even if it puts us against bishops and patriarchs as it did in times past.
The state of the Church today is directly attributable to the charismatics--the complete contortion of the Mass, profane liturgical music, liturgical dance, inclusive language, the focus on apocalyptic revelations and apparitions, the call for female clergy, "eucharistic ministers," ecumenism that flirts with indifferentism, "theme" Masses, extreme subjectivism, seeking of miraculous events, conversion by "feeling" instead of catechism, the complete lack of regard for tradition because "the Spirit is doing something new now"--all of these are poison fruits of the charismatic heresy. For everyone that laments what has become of the Church, you only have the charismatics to blame! It's not Vatican II, it's not the liberals... rather these things all came in through the back door thanks to the charismatics!
We should be as fired up in our defense of the Orthodox Faith as St. Nicholas of Myra was when he punched Arius in the nose at the Council of Nicaea. Not that we should go around clocking charismatics in the face, but we should be that zealous to defend the Faith from heresy!

Augustine,
Are you saying the late Holy Father took a heretical position on the matter of the charismatic dimension of the Church? You've already made blanket statements about the "charsimatic/montanist" heresy. Do you have any distinctions you want to make or have you pretty much excluded anything of the mission of the Third Person of the Trinity?
Maybe the CCF should set up a commission to investigate any claim of inspiration with which you are uncomfortable. I understand from your blog that your parish youth choir is quite controversial and upsetting to you. That should really be investigated.
Anything else bothering you?

"Of course you will be out of step with the Church.."
Because I accept the 4-0 decisions? Talk about out of step.
I don't know what your point is here, Inocencio. You stated that the only thing to follow re: Medj. is the local bishop's opinion. To that, if you accept merely the local bishop's opinion over the current guidance of the Church - wait and see rather than condemnation - you are not speaking with the current mind of the Church. You seem to be saying that you accept what the Church has guided AND the bishop's opinion which is that in his mind it should be ruled condemned. Really, you can't do both.
Your other point about the Church overturning a local bishop (with the authority to rule we must add, not lessened by the CDF) I am not aware. I know that usually the Church works in collaboration with a local bishop when asked or when there may be questions. I know that there have been instances where one bishop rules that a case is closed never to be restudied only to have a future bishop reopen the matter and then declare something supernatural. So, I, again, don't see your point. The Church does have the authority to do what it did in this case. Hopefully you are not saying otherwise.
It is entirely plausible to me that a spirit whose characteristic mark toward people seeking the truth is disguise as an angel of light—this is St. Ignatius, remember, not me—would lead souls to embrace religious piety if the final end is successful; that is, a house divided against itself, as you quoted.
That is always a possibility. But you leave out some pretty important factors here when it comes to Medj. That is that this apparition site has been studied in greater depth and with more objective scientific studies - 3 now - than any other in history and nothing has demonstrated to be fraudulent. Also, none of the messages have been against faith or morals ... and nothing in the seers' behavior has been judged as abnormal or against the faith. Now these studies by world renowned experts in Marian apparitions, mysticism, psychology, brain function, etc. have been going on for a quarter of a century. If you can't trust these many great orthodox bishops, cardinal, priests, theologians, recognised professionals of the various fields of study ... and don't forget our beloved former pope ... who are not exactly new kids on the block when it comes to such things, then you might as well never go near any private revelation ... and of course you are free to do so.
And, Augustine, I believe it is Mark to whom you should have addressed your replies for all of those many quotes you listed as mine re: the charismatic movement. I can't take the credit for those remarks.

Chris K:
I focus on the early documentation of the “apparitions” because those messages and circumstances are the reason the local bishop turned around in his original support of the “seers.” Until I stumbled upon them, the only reason the Medjuogorje supporters I knew gave for his about face was “fear of the communists.” When I read the content of the actual messages as recorded in the diary of one of the “seers,” his reasoning seemed completely legitimate; in fact, a necessary conclusion I would have drawn myself if faced with that evidence against it. Supporters marginalize and dismiss these troublesome early messages and the rank disobedience of the priests involved, but they seem fairly damning to me, at least enough to inspire caution. But caution seems continually thrown to the wind by supporters and particularly by priests such as Father Rick in Sean’s testimony. It is entirely plausible to me that a spirit whose characteristic mark toward people seeking the truth is disguise as an angel of light—this is St. Ignatius, remember, not me—would lead souls to embrace religious piety if the final end is successful; that is, a house divided against itself, as you quoted. The postings on this blog give ample evidence to that occurring and my own experience with this "apparition" does likewise. Sean’s considerable talents will be used to promote these messages. His support of these “apparitions” will not remain private. His stated intention is to spread the messages. When he or another promoter shows up at my parish, as has already happen numerous times as I mentioned in my original post above, I will forced to take my stand against him. I have no heart for this. I have good friends and know many more good people who are involved with this “apparition.” One of the “seers” claimed to have had an “apparition” of the Mother of God in my parish church. That is a very bold claim. It is either true or false. Do I violate my conscience in order to keep the peace or am I obligated in faith to voice my concern? I should not be forced into such a difficult position within my community of faith. Our shepherds are asleep.

Chris K:
The charismatic dimension of the Church was reaffirmed by the Council Fathers in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Paragraph 12)
Nobody is disputing whether or not the Holy Spirit blesses God's People with charismata. The entire Church is held together by the charismata given by the Holy Spirit. What is at dispute is whether or not the particular claims of charismatics are valid. I don't dispute that people receive even extraordinary gifts, such as tongues, by the Spirit. I dispute that people should make themselves into complete idiots falling down on the floor, babbling in unintelligible nonsense, laughing uncontrollably, barking like dogs, performing fake healings, giving false prophecies, having lay people perform duties assigned to clerics, inventing new quasi-sacraments like "baptism in the Holy Spirit," making no distinction between the Church and heretics, etc. And then to not only attribute all of this, blasphemously, to the Holy Spirit, but to urge the faithful to actively seek these strange gifts, claim that they are common, that they authenticate their abberrant views, and to trust their subjective feelings over tradition, leading to many liturgical abuses as well as to relativism and indifferentism.
Chris K:
Of the Charismatic Renewal, Pope John Paul II himself said, "I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church." In fact, his Papal Household Preacher since 1981, preaches Baptism in the Spirit as a means willed by God to revitalize Christian life.
Firstly, I am not compelled to believe anything that Holy Father offers as an opinion and not as dogma. Let's not forget that bishops and even patriarchs have not only fallen for heresy in times past, but often they were the ones in whom the heresies originated. Being a bishop, or even a respected theologian does not save one from heresy. See Arius, Nestorius, Donatus, Origen, Tertullian, and many more for examples. His Papal household preacher's opinion means absolutely zero to me. My family produced two of the most scandal-ridden popes in history--John XIII and Sylvester III--so believe me when I say that the people the Pope surrounds himself with are not always the best people to seek guidance from.
Chris K quoting then-Cardinal Ratzinger:
"At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical."
And my response is simply "Who cares?" See what I wrote above about bishops and heresy. Tell me what Holy Father says now about the movement. Let him make a dogmatic statement one way or the other. Opinions change, and I know that the Pope does not take his position lightly. But quite frankly, even this statement does not necessarily speak to the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal." It is very vague and only seems to imply the CCR at best. This is similar to many statements made by JPII where charismatics take a statement that was meant to be merely complimentary, or even contained cautions against excesses, as a Papal endorsement! The context of the quote is a foreword to a book written by the Papal delegate to CCR. It should not be seen as a blanket endorsement of CCR.

chris K,
"Of course you will be out of step with the Church.."
Because I accept the 4-0 decisions? Talk about out of step.
As for private pilgrimages I could make one to my any parish because the Lord is appearing there but I cannot claim that He is giving messages to me for the world. Medjugorje has the same status as any other parish in the world. Since no pilgrimage can claim the "apparition" is authentic and cannot be an offical one sponsored by a diocese.
I ask my question again:
"Can you point to any claimed apparition being approved by overturning the decision of the local Ordinary?"
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

"Lord, let's 'wait and see' if I am worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof..."
--Centurion, to Jesus

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