Condoms During Pregnancy

by Jimmy Akin on August 7, 2006

in Moral Theology

A reader writes:

When pregnant, I have am prone to receiving a type of bacterial
infection that can cause pre-term labor, and my first child was born
several weeks early because of it. 

During my second pregnancy, I read
that many doctors recommend the use of condoms during pregnancy to try
and reduce the transition of the bacteria, because the male germ cells can aggravate
the condition (this is not related to a sexually transmitted disease.)
My midwife recommended this practice as well, although there have not
yet been studies to see if it is effective. 

I solicited opinions on a
Catholic e-mail list as to whether or not the use of condoms during
pregnancy under these conditions would be licit.  I assumed that it
would be.  If I’m already pregnant, I am obviously not trying to
contracept, right? 

I was surprised that the opinion fell the other way,
feeling that the "unitive end" of the marital act would be frustrated if
a barrier were between us.

Could you give me your opinion on the subject?

I can, but let me do so in the below-the-fold section of this post so that people don’t have to look at the discussion who do not want to read it. (I’ll also keep as clinical as I can).

The Church has not directly addressed the matter that you have raised, so we must fall back on Catholic moral theology to try to answer the question. The answer below would be representative of what many orthodox Catholic moralists would say.

First, Catholic moral theology holds that the marital act includes both a unitive and a procreative aspect and that neither of these may be deliberately frustrated.

The procreative aspect is frustrated, obviously, in the case of contraception, while the unitive aspect is frustrated, for example, in the case of in vitro fertilization. In the former case the spouses are united in marital congress but procreation is thwarted. In the latter case procreation occurs but the spouses are not united in marital congress.

God designed human sexuality so that both aspects (actual union and openness to procreation) are to go together, and neither may be pursued apart from the other.

The unitive aspect involves more than just the spouses giving each other the experience of sexual release. That could be accomplished any number of ways that would not be open to procreation. For the spouses to truly be united in marital congress that is open to procreation, at least some insemination must occur. Without insemination, one does not have a completed marital act.

The use of an intact condom prevents insemination and thus prevents the spouses from being united in true marital congress.

For this reason, even when a condom is not being used to prevent procreation, it could not be used on the grounds that it prevents the spouses from being united in marital congress.

So I would say that your friends from the e-mail list are correct in the opinion you report.

I should point out, though, that there is another possible consideration here. While it is necessary for some insemination to occur in order for the marital act to be completed, it does not appear that there is any set amount of insemination that must occur.

Some orthodox Catholic moralists have suggested that this fact could be utilized as part of obtaining samples of the seminal fluid needed for male fertility testing. They have thus proposed the possibility of using a perforated condom that would allow some but not all of the seminal fluid to be transmitted. That which gets caught in the condom could then be used for fertility testing, while that which went through the condom would complete the marital act.

I should underscore that this is a proposal and not something that the Church has either endorsed or prohibited, but the same thing might be possible in your case. If allowing a smaller amount of seminal fluid through would pose less risk of aggravating your condition then the use of a perforated condom might be morally licit.

Not having marital congress also would be an option, but complete continence for nine months could cause marital strain as well as the occasion of sin, and so it would be for you and your husband, based on the best medical advice you could obtain and your knowledge of yourselves, to weigh the varying risks and benefits involved as part of determining whether the perforated condom technique would be justified in your case.

As I indicated at the beginning, all of the above deals with matters that the Church has not explicitly addressed. This does not mean that we can simply do what we want, though. It means that we must do the best we can to inform our consciences, seeking out and considering arguments both for and against a position, praying, making the best determination we can, and then acting on it, trusting the results to God.

Hope this helps!

20

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Using condoms during pregnancy is not desirable.It can lead to bacterial vaginosis.

Some Day, I am not a religious. Actually I think I am technically still a member of the SFOs since I was talked into joining their observership program, but I will soon ask to be removed.
I have a Benedictine spirituality and believe I may have a vocation to the OCSOs (Trappists). I have been in contact with a monastery but they do not accept postulants under 25 years old and I am 21 so I have the luxury of taking it slow and exploring other options. My participation here, being the closest thing to an external apostolate in my life, is a part of that exploration.
Seeing that some posters gave URL's that were not their own I almost on a whim put the Trappist web page in my personal information, but maybe I should remove it if it will make people identify me too closely with them. I only hoped that people would follow the link and learn something about an underappreciated side of Catholicism as well expressing what sort of attitude towards life I am coming from. The St. Joseph's Abbey site is more attractive but I thought if I used it, it would be more of an implication that I was from that monastery (though I hope to be in a few years).
Those three factors I listed are what I have encountered many times as the requirements for a vocation. After the person has joined the order they may well later loose their mental or physical capacity to live the life, but that does not change the fact that they indeed had a vocation and remain in the order or priesthood or whatever and is called to live out as much of that vocation as they can. That is different than if they when looking at entering (or at least before making final vows) and it is clear that they will never be able to live the ordinary life of the order, barring a miracle.
About contraception, the sin of contraception like any sin is always wrong can not be done for any reason. The question is what constitutes this sin.
About women being raped, it may not always be possible for a woman to fight enough to prevent the rape from happening or cause the rapist to kill her. The man may simply be too strong and/or the woman too weak for that. Even if that is not the case, I for one would not judge a rape victim to have done something wrong just because she did accomplish the same heroic feat of St. Maria Goretti.
Also, while God may indeed at times protect his beloved from harm, we know that some times he allows great evil to happen to them. If he allowed his own Son to be crucified, he very well may allow holy nuns to be raped. It is not our business to question this, but to have compassion on the victims.

Are you a religious J.R.?
Your link is to the Trappists.
---------------------------------
Anyways, the boy showed signs of vocation because there are somethings that unless you won't understand about an order unless you got something to so with it. Not that this is the case, but apostates and those who aren't preservering are many times sugested to get married. Was their vocation to get married? No, but because of obedience their vocation can shift.
Now salvation is another question for apostates.
Some saints say that it is dificult, others say that those that don't follow their vocation can't be saved. Ofcourse, if your superior tells you to, then that is another case. My friend was told to. He just showed symptoms that could complicate things later in life. If a the Pope has develops a nervous condition, and it isn't his fault (like he didn't have vices that would lead to that) are you going to say that he doesn't have vocation?
Back to the topic, contraceptives are completely evil no matter how you use them.
Now hormonal therapy can be licit because the contraceptive properties are a side effect that is sometimes inseperatable from the desired primary effect.
And I just want to say this, because I remember it somewhat, that Saint Maria Goretti once was about to be raped she fought so much that her attacker had no other choice than to stab her.
She died a virgin and martyr. So I imagine that if you are a saint God will protect you from such things. If you are prostitute in a habit, like I have been is happening many time , like nuns at the beach dressed immorally and they weren't swiming. Now if you are nuns like Mother Angelica's, then God will protect.

Some Day,
My questions in my last post are really meant as that: questions. I am no longer sure I know the answer to this particular issue.
To comment on some of your side comments in your last post,
To be confident that a vocation is authentic the person must really feel a call, the community must really be willing to accept him or her, and the person must be physically and mentally capable of living the life. If God did not provide your friend with the physical ability to live the life of the order he wanted to join, you can rest assured that it was not his true vocation. By the nervous condition I would even say God prevented him from entering a life he was not in fact called to. This was mercy, and I bet your friend will find his real vocation and live a holier life than he would have in that community.
Still, you are right that some people are called to suffer more than others, including those who long for religious life but can not join any order. I know of one canonized saint that was that way, and I myself may end up with the same fate. It is a mystery why God allows honest people to think they have a vocation they do not and then suffer in exile.
About the nuns in Africa, the convent is not always a sanctuary. Especially when there is a civil war going on like in Congo or where the culture is anti-Christian, ruffians may break into the convent and rape the nuns right there. I imagine African men might target nuns for the same reason they target very young girls: they want a virgin so they do not get HIV.

Your appeal to pathos is pretty strong but lacks some logos.
One must prevent wrong as much as one can, key word is can. My vocation doesn't seem to go and rid the world of heresy. Not directly anyways.
Nor is it to prevent crimes as a cop would.
So jumping into a clinic and knocking out a tool could even be a sin because I am risking my life unnecesarily, at least foolishly.
Lets see.
Rape is a crime...duh.
Also a sin.
Contracepting is a sin.
Duh.
Rapist sins, so does nun for contracepting.
Why?
Because regardless of the victim's rights and state in life, God set laws which defend His right as God.
If God wants to not give life to that act, then He won't.
Now it seems sad that the nun will now be pregnant, and the child is fatherless, but God will provide for both.
I have a friend who entered as novice into a relgious order.
He was a very good kid, I knew him pretty well.
But when he left for his place of formation, he develoed a nervous problem. He had vocation.
He was faithful to it. But his condition impeads him from the hard life that is being in a religious order. He was sent home o good terms.
It is not his fault he has that. So God will provide him with a "new"vocation.
Some people are called to suffer more than others.
....
On another note
Unless the nuns are missionaries in Africa or something like that, I don't see why they would be raped if they are safe in their convent.

God's, not that the two will usually be seperable.
But is prevention of conception outside of marriage always wrong? If a "doctor" was in the middle of performing in vitro fertilization, would you not be justified in knocking the micropipeter out of his hands to prevent the illicit fertilization? Does a similar concept come into play when a woman is trying to prevent illicit impregnation from rape or does her doing so just make the situation worse? That is the question.

we compound sin when we are negligent or forceful in preventing conception outside of marriage, possibly even on two counts: 1. because we wrong a child who deserves two married parents, and 2.) where the woman is forced, she is obviously also wronged with the burden of impregnation (not that it's licit after the fact, for her to abort).
Who's rights are more important, God's or the victim and child?

Brother Cadfael,
As usual you say about what I meant to but more clearly and concisely.
Karen,
If a woman can get something in there before being raped, better than a diaphragm would be the product developed recently and mentioned in the earlier discussion on this site of this same subject. It does not harm the woman, but when a man, um, enters, his, ehem, member gets a bunch of long needles stuck into it which must later be removed surgically. Apparently the pain is so intense that there is no chance of the man doing further violence to the woman in rage.

Karen,
Given the length of your posts I think reather than responding to them line by line I will just give my position.
First, to reiterate my position on conception, all natural processes are good. That is not because they are part of the "Natural Law" as Christians use the term but because God created nature. Thus in the abstract the physical aspect of conception is good, and the spiritual aspect, ensoulment, is very good and a direct act of creation by God. The great goodness of conception is precisely what makes bringing it about outside of its intended context so evil and an offence against the dignity of conception and of the child. In such cases the conception (isolated from its context) and the child are goods brought out of the evil God has allowed.
Fornication is not just a mere shaddow of the marrital act, it is identical to that act in all things save the identity of the people involved. I think it is therefore safe to say that it is indeed sex, but sex with the wrong person.
Sodomy, beastiality, and mastrobation on the other hand are indeed mere shaddows of sex. I think "condomized sex" also would be qualified as this. As these things are further perversions of sexuality, they would seem to be more grave than plain fornication.
It is harder to compare them to adultury and rape because there you get other, very different factors coming into play. In adultury you have the violation of the marriage bond, the breaking of marital vows, and the personal offence against the innocent spouse. In the case of rape you have the violence and the trauma inflicted on the victim.
Considering first the physical realities of the act, a condom essentially turns fornication into sodomy and adultury into adulturous sodomy, increasing the gravity of each I think. Chemical contracption does not do this but carries the possiblility of abortion, which makes it inexcusable in any circumstances.
In the case of rape a condom (and I fail to see how a woman could get her attacker to wear one) would turn the act from forced sex to forced sodomy. If wearing the condom is the man's initiative then the woman can have no culpability in any way, so the entire discussion of gravity concerns the man, but since what he does is so grave in any case I see no point in trying to decide if he does better or worse by using a condom. If the condom use is initiated by the woman somehow, then she is personally choosing to have an act of sodomy forced on her (though again of course she is not the one commiting it) rather than an act of fornication. It seems to me that this increased warping of the physical act may contain some kind of gravity. On the other hand she is protecting herself from possible disease and unwanted extramarital pregnancy which is certainly not ordained (there is no telling what is willed in general) by God. How these two factors interact I do not know.
What about diaphragms though? I had forgotton about these. They are fairly obscure no? In any case they do not protect a woman from disease as far as I can tell but makes conception less likely. This is just a speculation, but it would seem to me that the prevention of an extramarital pregnancy is a positive element, but that the physical aspect of it would not change the reality from sex to sodomy. Further, there is not abortifacient quality like that which prevents the licit use of chemical contraception in any case. There for its use by a victim of rape if she can manage it may be acceptible or even desirable.
I'm not sure though. Any thoughts, Brother Cadfael or Inocencio?

Karen,
I'm not sure which question you're talking about, but I'll give it a shot.
I agree with you about nature and natural law -- they are definitely not interchangeable. An appeal to natural law is not the same thing as an appeal to nature.
What I don't understand is why some seem to think there is a legitimate argument against nuns protecting themselves in cases of potential rape, with barrier methods?
I am not at all certain that this would be disallowed; I am in fact inclined to agree with you that it probably would be allowed. The rape victim in such a case has no intention to voluntarily enter into a sexual act.
I do believe that the natural law prohibition of contraception, however, applies both to the marital act and to voluntary sexual acts outside of marriage. I believe that magisterial teaching on contraception is in clear agreement on this point. But even if they had not been, natural law still prohibits it.
Sodomy and bestiality, I believe, would be different than fornication, because they are already contraceptive acts in and of themselves. Fornication is not, and the inherent evil of contraception compounds the inherent evil of fornication.

Jimmy, please remove the condom advertisement above Karen's posts.

Karen, I have not looked here for weeks I think. It is a lot to read and things are getting bussy, but I will try to read through it and give you a response.

Any takers? I know it's not the hot, current topic, but it's been a few days.

I can't turn off the bold. I put /strong into brackets and it doesn't work, so ... anyway...
To those who think it's a matter of Natural Law that insemination take its course in matters of illicit ways of conceiving: It's not Natural Law. "Nature" and "Natural Law" are not interchangeable. Natural Law takes God's ideals into account. It is possible to misuse nature. You're misusing nature when you fuse sperm and egg in a petri dish--they'll naturally unite even in that circumstance, but that is misusing nature. That's why it's illicit in the first place.
Same thing applies to rape and fornication, masturbation, and these other shadows of sex. They are an abuse of nature. Where nature can result in a conception, there's still nothing "Natural Law" about it. God's ideals were ignored.

What's wrong with the bold?

Bold off. My post again, because the HTML helps:
What I don't understand is why some seem to think there is a legitimate argument against nuns protecting themselves in cases of potential rape, with barrier methods?
If the marital act is the only licit means to procreate, then why is there any question that preventing an illicit way of conceiving is a licit thing to do--at any point before the conception? "But the penis has ejaculated inside a vagina at that point" is no argument. Rape is wrong for many reasons, but one of them is that the unitive aspect is not there in its true and complete sense, like it is within marriage.
There is no reason that post-coital period should be the definitive cut-off point at which conception may no longer be licitly prevented where rape is concerned. Victims of rape go through a cleaning process at hospitals--would you be against this, simply because Humanae Vitae says that contraception includes steps taken after a marital act, as well as contraceptive steps taken beforehand? Of course not. Look at Humanae Vitae section 12 where "unitive" is mentioned. It has to do with marital relations between husband and wife.
It seems understood that the teachings on contraception are to be taken in the context of sex--real sex, which is God's definition, which would be licit sex, which is marital sex, and not mere shadows of sex. Or would you insist on strapping down rape victims so that they cannot interfere with "nature taking its course", to give conception a chance? Red flags all over my conscience. Where this happens, God is bringing about good from an evil act because people didn't, or weren't able to, prevent an illicit means of conception from taking place at any stage before the actual conception. It doesn't mean we can't prevent an illicit potential means of conception at any of those stages.
Rubbing alcohol looks a lot like water. It's not a "drink" for us, because God never intended it to be. That doesn't mean that once I drink it, that I have ingested a "drink", and that it's then illicit to pump my stomach--even if God could somehow bring good out of the terrible health consequences, which we know He could do.
3) Can anyone find a theological citation that says or implies that insemination has to take place in the marital union to satisfy the unitive aspect of marriage?
Look at what was written above. Marriage is what makes it a marital act in the first place. Only within marriage can the unitive and procreative aspects exist in their fulness and in their entirety. And if sexual activity can't fulfill both procreative and unitive requirements, then it's just not "sex" by God's intended definition. It is but a shadow of the real thing. What secular society calls "sex" using any other orifice or other part of the body or other animal or blow-up doll, is not really sex. Rape very strongly resembles sex, and so does fornication, but on the lesser-obvious spiritual level, they both fail to meet God's criteria.
If this means that contraception being used while fornicating does not compound sin, I am willing to accept this. People seem to be saying that because God CAN allow conception to happen, that it is necessarily His Will that we make it possible in cases of rape and fornication. The second assumption being, that those qualify as legitimate, if not licit, sex, by God's definition, when they don't. But this is contrary to what we know. Not all things that God allows to happen, are necessarily HIS WILL. God allows murder, but that doesn't mean murder is His Will. We know it's not God's will for people to conceive out of wedlock. I believe we compound sin when we are negligent or forceful in preventing conception outside of marriage, possibly even on two counts: 1. because we wrong a child who deserves two married parents, and 2.) where the woman is forced, she is obviously also wronged with the burden of impregnation (not that it's licit after the fact, for her to abort).

What I don't understand is why some seem to think there is a legitimate argument against nuns protecting themselves in cases of potential rape, with barrier methods?
If the marital act is the only licit means to procreate, then why is there any question that preventing an illicit way of conceiving is a licit thing to do--at any point before the conception? "But the penis has ejaculated inside a vagina at that point" is no argument. Rape is wrong for many reasons, but one of them is that the unitive aspect is not there in its true and complete sense, like it is within marriage.
There is no reason that post-coital period should be the definitive cut-off point at which conception may no longer be licitly prevented where rape is concerned. Victims of rape go through a cleaning process at hospitals--would you be against this, simply because Humanae Vitae says that contraception includes steps taken after a marital act, as well as contraceptive steps taken beforehand? I'd be tempted to bet almost anything that you couldn't say that without your conscience flagging you hotly. Look at Humanae Vitae section 12 where "unitive" is mentioned. The context is, marital relations between husband and wife.
It seems understood that the teachings on contraception are to be taken in the context of sex--real sex, which is God's definition, which would be licit sex, which is marital sex, and not mere shadows of sex. Or would you insist on strapping down rape victims so that they cannot interfere with "nature taking its course", to give conception a chance? Red flags all over my conscience. Where this happens, God is bringing about good from an evil act because people didn't, or weren't able to, prevent an illicit means of conception from taking place at any stage before the actual conception. It doesn't mean we can't prevent an illicit potential means of conception at any of those stages.
Rubbing alcohol looks a lot like water. It's not a "drink" for us, because God never intended it to be. That doesn't mean that once I drink it, that I have ingested a "drink", and that it's then illicit to pump my stomach--even if God could somehow bring good out of the terrible health consequences, which we know He could do.
3) Can anyone find a theological citation that says or implies that insemination has to take place in the marital union to satisfy the unitive aspect of marriage?
Look at what was written above. Marriage is what makes it a marital act in the first place. Only within marriage can the unitive and procreative aspects exist in their fulness and in their entirety. And if sexual activity can't fulfill both procreative and unitive requirements, then it's just not "sex" by God's intended definition. It is but a shadow of the real thing. What secular society calls "sex" using any other orifice or other part of the body or other animal or blow-up doll, is not really sex. Rape very strongly resembles sex, and so does fornication, but on the lesser-obvious spiritual level, they both fail to meet God's criteria.
If this means that contraception being used while fornicating does not compound sin, I am willing to accept this. People seem to be saying that because God CAN allow conception to happen, that it is necessarily His Will that we make it possible in cases of rape and fornication. The second assumption being, that those qualify as legitimate, if not licit, sex, by God's definition, when they don't. But this is contrary to what we know. Not all things that God allows to happen, are necessarily HIS WILL. God allows murder, but that doesn't mean murder is His Will. We know it's not God's will for people to conceive out of wedlock. I believe we compound sin when we are negligent or forceful in preventing conception outside of marriage, possibly even on two counts: 1. because we wrong a child who deserves two married parents, and 2.) where the woman is forced, she is obviously also wronged with the burden of impregnation (not that it's licit after the fact, for her to abort).

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In the end, you can atleast conclude that...
"one abyss leads to another."

Some Day,
I think it really depends on the definition of the sin of contraception. If, as thomas tucker suggests, contraception outside of marriage is an entirely different reality than contraception within marriage, then you can not take teachings about contraception within marriage and automatically transport them to fornication. As noted above I personally believe contraception perverts the sexual act in fornication even more and thus makes the sin worse, possibly even raising it to the level of sodomy in the case of condoms.
On the other hand, I don't know if classic sodomy is made any different morally speaking with a latex boundery.
It is not the physical condom or other contraceptive that is evil, but the contraceptive act which may be impossible to add to sodomy since the physical reality is all wrong to begin with and already closed to life.

I finally came to a conclusion in absoulote in mind as to why contraceptives are wrong even outside marriage. Its because its an offense to God, regardless if the baby is going to grow up in a broken "family". Condoms are bad, and just not to ruin the lives involve from permanent complications does it become licit.
If you rob a bank, you can't kill the witness just because, "oh, I robbed the bank already, I might as well make sure I don't get caught and kill the teller.". So it is wrong, regardless of the situation because it offends God, and breaks with the Divine Order instituted by him. And that call for a restitution, or at a certain point, Vengeance.
I was actually inclined to believe contraception outside of marriage is somewhat ok, but I know it is either Good or Bad and there are no inbetweens and somewhats.

With regard to the inherent goodness or moral neutrality, I've been reading something a good book on Thomastics, and I think I have an answer.
Considering that every natural cause is either completely random, or has an end. Since the end of conception is the creation of one more soul to love and serve the Lord, it is inherently good. Now, that does not permit one to do evil in order to create the cause, as we know that it is never permissible to do evil that good may come.

Thanks, Inocencio.

thomas tucker,
#1 DA RULZ
20. When Jimmy is answering a pastoral question (i.e., for a person asking about an actual that they or someone they know is involved in, as opposed to a hypothetical situation) that can be phrased in the form "Is it morally licit to do X?", do not contradict Jimmy in the comments box. People asking pastoral questions on moral subjects often feel very disoriented and confused if they get a debate rather than an answer on a sensitive question about a situation they, a friend, or a family member is involved in.
For the peace of mind of the person who asked the question, challenges to such answers need to be handled a different way. Instead of using the comments box to pose your challenge, e-mail Jimmy. If you win him over, he'll make a correction and notify the person who asked the question. Comments violating this policy will be deleted. Widespread violation of this policy will result in the comments box being turned off for such questions.
Posts subject to Rule 20 will have a "20" at the bottom of the post.
#2 What Is Happening In The Middle East post is at 460 which I think is the record so far...
#3 Still looking...
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Three questions:
1) What is rule 20?
2) Do you think this thread has made a record for comments on this blog?
3) Can anyone find a theological citation that says or implies that insemination has to take place in the marital union to satisfy the unitive aspect of marriage?

J.R.,
I was agreeing with you, just recasting the argument a bit to make sure.
Thanks

I agree, Brother. Are you just agreeing with me or have I been unclear again?
BTW, Jimmy, if my touching on the subject of whether a perforated condom is acceptible above somewhere was in violation of rule 20 I apologize too. I figured since the question is open to debate in the Church I could give my opinion on the matter, but maybe not since you basically gave the ok for this couple to follow their conscience on the matter.

J.R.,
I think you were correct at the outset, when you pointed out that conception is not a voluntary, human act. It is a result of the marital act, or of sexual intercourse, or of scientists' experiments in petri dishes, but it is not itself an act.
The realm of moral theology characterizes acts -- not results. Acts themselves can be good (the marital act) or neutral or inherently evil (fornication, or mixing sperm and eggs in petri dishes).
But the fact that the result of any of these acts is good (conception, or life) does not alter the good or evil nature of the act itself. It may be, as Karen has noted, an example of God bringing good out of evil.
But in the moral realm, it makes little sense to speak of conception as morally good, morally neutral, or amoral.

Inocencio:
I think using a condom to contracept or interfere with the marriage act is sinful. I think they can be an occasion of sin only if you allow them to be. I am concerned that you & some others in this combox are in danger of making idols--if negative ones--out of condoms. It is the use of the object that is evil or not. The object itself is amoral.
That's all I have to say about that.

cminor,
Oops...my comments got cut off.
It should have read:
I think that condoms are sinful and at the very least a near occasion of sin.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Oy vey,....
Let that teach me to try making a point with analogies!
[sigh]

Karen,
I still think you are focusing too much on the surrounding details of how the physical element of conception comes about in any given case. I am just saying that the fusion of gametes, the plasmogamy and karyogamy (and it would be an interesting discussion about which of those is realy the moment of conception) is in itself a good thing like any other cellular process, or indeed greater than any other cellular process since it is the formation of a new living (hence ensouled) human body. Besides, the physical process and the ensoulment are so metaphysically, insepterably linked that I would say for all practical purposes they constitute a single event. If this single event of conception (the formation of a new human person) is accepted as intrinsically good then I think the matter of the goodness or neutrality of the physical componant is fairly trivial. Thus I think I will drop the issue even if you want to keep argueing against it.
The important facts remain: the marital act must always be open to conception, conception may not be intentionally brought about outside of marriage, and conception by itself, separated from the events that have lead to it and considered as a whole (the physical and spiritual properties together) is always a great good.
About your
I also want to say that there's more to "natural" than simply what nature makes possible. Natural law isn't exactly the same as nature. God's ideals are taken into account. The teachings we derive from natural law are that marital relations are the true "Way" to conceive.
I agree with that statement entirely, though I'm not sure what you are trying to imply with it. When I talk about natural processes being good, I do not mean they follow the natural law. Natural law, as we Catholics use the term, refers to the system of right and wrong built into us. It is a description of how God intends for us to act.
There is more to good and evil though than just the natural law though, because there is more to Creation than human actions. Moral good is not the only kind of good, and moral evil is not the only kind of evil. All that God created is good. Since we humans are fully a part of physical creation what we make is part of the whole, thus at least some of it enhances and completes that creation and thus is also good. I would hold that even if the act of creation was evil (a wicked Medieval king building a prison tower to torture people in) the actual beautiful tower may itself be good, enhancing God's creation. The issue of physical evil is complicated and debatable, so I will just say that it is related to and in some way caused by moral evil. I doubt though that the act of conception, even when brought about by evil means, ever becomes evil itself. I also doubt that there is anything truely "neutral" in nature. There are acts that are moraly neutral, but not objects or bioligical processes that are neutral.

cminor,
I said I don't think you can seperate the object from the use it was designed for. You say you can I am doubtful but accept your word.
If only one child on your underwater trip knows what they are all of them will know by the end of the trip. Or worse when they get older and realize that they have many "uses" and if cminor uses them for stuff they must be ok. I would maintain there is no valid use of a condom and in my mind as an object no good will come from their use. I accept that everyone on this blog will disagree with me.
As Jimmy noted some orthodox moralists have suggested the use of the perferated ones for obtaining samples. I disagree with that use also.
If you want your three-old to play with them that is your call. My children would not play at your house.
But the original question was neither about contraceptive use nor about long-term condom use; it was about whether a way could be found for a couple to enjoy the marital embrace during a period of several months when a health problem made it difficult.
I would give the same answer the African bishops gave.
* The use of condoms goes against human dignity. * Condoms change the beautiful act of love into a selfish search for pleasure – while rejecting responsibility. *
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

One more thing:
Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.
Correct. But the original question was neither about contraceptive use nor about long-term condom use; it was about whether a way could be found for a couple to enjoy the marital embrace during a period of several months when a health problem made it difficult.

Okay, Inocencio:
First off, you still haven't clarified for me what you mean by scandal. The question is still whether the object is good, evil, or neutral. But I'll take on your question anyway.
No, I would not use condoms gratuitiously, even for licit purposes, in the presence of children; if I had some compelling reason to do it, (say I had a group of kids recording sounds underwater) I certainly wouldn't go into all the lurid details about what they were designed for! I'd just let 'em think they were microphone waterproofers.
You say that you can't separate the object from the use in a person's mind. Not so. I can't separate the object from the use in my mind because I know what it's commonly used for. If, however, I were to blow up a condom, tie up the end, and give it to a three-year-old, he wouldn't see a condom; he'd see a balloon. He doesn't have the same frame of reference you and I do. There's no hygenic region not to do this, as long as it's fresh from the package and untreated. There are social reasons not to, not the least of which is he's likely to encounter somebody else who knows what his 'balloon' is who will be sacandalized. But until it is used to commit a sin, the object itself is, I would posit, neutral.

cminor,
So why get into a lather over the object?
So you would use them as paperweights, bungee cords and I guess even ballons in front of your children?
I still say that is scandalous because I don't think you can seperate in a person's mind what they were designed for even if find uses you think are wonderful.
Are they so amoral that you would give them to children as ballons? And if not why not?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

I also want to say that there's more to "natural" than simply what nature makes possible. Natural law isn't exactly the same as nature. God's ideals are taken into account. The teachings we derive from natural law are that marital relations are the true "Way" to conceive.

J.R. Stoodley,
No, I don't grasp that natural processes are inherently good for the very reason that a sperm and egg can naturally join and form an embryo, even in a petri dish--just doing what they're supposed to do outside of God's plan. The sperm is naturally going to try to penetrate the egg even if the petri dish isn't the natural place for it to happen.

Matt, I still don't see how the simultaneous infusion of a soul along with conception makes it inherently a "moral" event in itself, just because this good thing happens.

Karen,
Intentionaly trying to cause conception outside the natural marital union is grossly immoral. Conception itself is good. What is difficult about this concept?
You still do not seem to grasp that natural processes are inherantly good.

gamete infusion is biological conception, ensoulment is spiritual conception. The two events are inseperable as we are both physical and spiritual beings, there is no soul before conception, there is only soul at conception, not after, a human, even at the gamete level, cannot exist even for the smallest fraction of a second without a human soul.
The act that results in this event may be morally good or morally bad. When it occurs it is good.

J.R. Stoodley, I think the amorality of gamete fusion is the only thing that can support your argument thus far.
There's no inherent goodness in gamete fusion that I can see. A scientist can do as much with a petri dish full of eggs and syringe full of sperm. What Catholic would go up to a hesitant scientist and say, "Do it! Do it! Conception is inherently good!"?
It's God's intervention that brings about good from the totally amoral and separate event of gamete fusion.

Karen,
The thing is, you connect the morality of the act of rape (or I keep going back to IVF) to the goodness (again, I say this is a matter of goodness not morality) of the actual processes of gamete fusion. I do not. I think the rape is terribly immoral, and the goodness of gamete fusion and the great goodness of ensoulment in no way lessens the gravity of the rape.

Karen,
I do not believe that rapists or chavs who aim to impregnate their victims go to a lesser level of hell because conception is inherently moral and good. God will give a kid a soul regardless. That's the parents' stain, not the kids'.
Agreed.

Karen,
No, conception is morally neutral and amoral. I don't agree, sorry! God acts separately to bring about good things as a result of conception.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. We are just using different definitions now. When I said "conception as a whole" I meant the physical element of plasmogamy and karyogamy (sp?) and the metaphysically inseperable element of the ensoulment of the cell. We both agree that the ensoulment element is good, thus whether the physical element is good or neutral the entire event is good.

"If it were not amoral, and were inherently morally positive, then it would greatly lessen the sin when people use illicit means to conceive."
Wrong.
If I intend to destroy life, the fact that I use a morally good (or morally neutral) object to do so would ABSOLUTELY NOT lessen my sin. If anything it would increase it because I have profaned what was good.

The important points are the goodness of conception as a whole, the value of all human life, and the goodness or evil of certain acts that can lead to conception.
No, conception is morally neutral and amoral. I don't agree, sorry! God acts separately to bring about good things as a result of conception.
He's pleased when married couples are open to life and have children. That's how things should be, and we all wish it always worked out this way.
Where there is rape and fornication, he intervenes at the point of conception and says, "Shucks, okay, here's your soul, despite how you were conceived. I feel sorry for you, kid, for how you've been wronged. You're just as human as the rest because of My Will, and don't let anyone tell you any different". But He still intervened separately from a morally neutral occurrence.
It doesn't make the actual conception inherently good, just because God does what he does when sperm meets egg. If it were not amoral, and were inherently morally positive, then it would greatly lessen the sin when people use illicit means to conceive, and I just don't believe this is the case.
I do not believe that rapists or chavs who aim to impregnate their victims go to a lesser level of hell because conception is inherently moral and good. God will give a kid a soul regardless. That's the parents' stain, not the kids'.

Oh, please disregard that repeat. My server's giving me trouble and I thought it didn't go through the first time.

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