The Martyr’s Dilemma

by Jimmy Akin on August 31, 2006

in Moral Theology

A reader writes:

Can you address the Church’s position on forced conversions in light of the Fox reporters  who were forced to convert to be released?  Would I condemn myself if I did something like that in similar  circumstance?  Would martyrdom be my only choice?

This is a situation that many Christians have faced in world history–ever since the first century–and many still face it today. In fact, the 20th century was an unprecedented time of Christian martyrdom.

The fundamental parameter governing the moral evaluation of convert-or-die situations was provided to us by Jesus Christ himself:

So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven [Matt. 10:32-33].

The context here is specifically that of persecution being used to bring about denials of the Christian faith:

Beware of men; for they will deliver  you up to councils, and flog you in their synagogues, and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my  sake, to bear testimony before them and the Gentiles.

Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and
children will rise against parents and have them put to death; and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he  who endures to the end will be saved [vv. 17-18, 21-22].

The principle is that denying Christ in the face of persecution is a grave sin and thus if done with adequate knowledge and consent it will be a mortal sin. Whether or not a particular person mortally sins in such a situation thus depends on the amount of knowledge the had of the sinful character of this act and the question of how deliberately they chose it. 

In cases of persecution, the extreme fear or pain (as in the case of torture) that a person may be under may deprive him of adequate consent and thus we cannot be sure, in any particular case, whether a person who denied the faith committed a mortal sin. We may thus always hope for the salvation of those who denied the faith under duress.

The Christians in the early centuries often faced persecutions and devoted quite a bit of though to the subject of what one’s responsibilities are if a persecution begins. Their writings devote significant attention to this question.

It was decided, for example, that if a ruler begins a persecution that Christians are not required to turn themselves in. (It was also found that those Christians who did turn themselves in to the authorities were often the first to crack under pressure because they had done so in a momentary fit of zeal that did not reflect a stable attitude of mind.)

The non-obligation to turn oneself in may be seen in Jesus’ statement from the same speech quoted above:

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next [v. 23].

Christians therefore can legitimately avoid the occasions of persecution. They don’t have to boldly go down to the local persecutor’s headquarters and start preaching. It is legitimate for them to do what they can to avoid persecution as long as they do not deny the Christian faith.

In subsequent centuries, further theological reflection has elaborated what is and is not required in disclosing information about oneself, and the Catechism explains that:

The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others [or oneself--jimmy], respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it [CCC 2488-2489].

If, therefore, a Muslim terrorist has kidnapped you and is threatening to kill you if you are a Christian and insist on remaining one, you would be morally able to use silence, misdirection, and mental reservations to protect one’s life. One can never deny the truth–that Jesus Christ is the Son of God–but one can use morally legitimate means to preserve one’s life as long as the truth is not denied.

This does not mean, however, that the use of these means is obligatory. A person will win for himself a very large martyr’s crown if he tells the terrorist, "I am a Christian and I will not deny my Savior no matter what you do."

A person who resorts to legitimate silence or discreet speech to avoid death will not win that crown, but he will not commit mortal sin either.

What forms of silence and discrete speech are legitimate will depend on the specific questions that the terrorist is putting to one and would have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

It is good not to spend too much time imagining what we ourselves would do in such situations and worrying about whether our response would be adequate. The reason for this is that we do not now have the graces that God would give us in such a situation. Grace is frequently delivered in a just-in-time manner, and God will be sure to give us graces when we are being travely tested that we do not currently possess.

Thus St. Paul tells us that God will always provide a way for us to bear up under temptation (1 Cor. 10:13), and Jesus himself–again in the Matthew 10 discourse–says that when faced with persecution,

When they deliver you up, do not be anxious how you are to speak or
what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you in
that hour; for it is not you who speak, but  the Spirit of your Father speaking through you [vv. 19-20].

If this applies to those who have been delivered up to hostile authorities, it applies even more to those of us who are not presently faced with the situation. The thing to do, then, is not to worry about what would do. It is to resolve now that we will trust in God to give us the grace then to get through the situation.

The same thing, incidentally, applies to any case where we are spending time worrying about whether we might crack under pressure and give in to sin in the future: Resolve now to rely on God to get you through it then and don’t allow yourself to be anxious.

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Aren't forced sacraments invalid?

Brother Cadfael,
While I admit my method could be taken to far, I still think it is a mistake to hold that within a document on the faith there can be nothing but the faith presented. I guess we will have to agree to disagree until someone comes up with anything else relevant.
Certainly I think we would both view most of the Catechism the same way.

J.R.,
I think you're doing violence (in a friendly sort of way) to the text. A unified whole means pretty much just that.
As for the remainder, I don't think I have anything else to add that wouldn't just be repeating myself, particular in light of my Sep 5, 2006 6:45:01 AM post.

Speaking of martyrs look at these soon to be maytrs...
Muslims demand death of convicted Indonesian Christians
Sep. 05 (CWNews.com) - A mass demonstration virtually shut down the Indonesian city of Poso on September 4, with several thousand Muslims demanding the speedy execution of three Catholics convicted of inciting violence during the religious conflicts that bloodied the local Sulawesi province in 2000.
Fabianus Tibo, Domingus da Silva and Marinus Riwu were scheduled to face a firing squad on August 12, but their execution was postponed after pleas from Church leaders (including Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news)) and human-rights groups.
The government has not yet set a new date for the execution, and the protestors in Poso demanded that the court's sentence be carried out promptly "as required by law." The September 4 rally marked out a route from the city's largest mosque to the office of the local prosecutor, insisting on prompt execution.
The case of the 3 convicted Christians has drawn international attention, with both Church leaders and human-rights groups observing that their trial took place in an atmosphere tinged by threats of violence from militant Muslim groups. No Muslim has yet faced trial in connection with the religious clashes that left more than 2,000 people dead in Sulawesi between 1999 and 2001.
The fate of the three men became still more delicate because their execution was scheduled just two weeks before the death penalty was to be imposed on Muslim terrorists convicted of the bombing that killed over 200 people in Bali in October 2002. Those executions, too, have been postponed, with no new date set.
Christian activists in Indonesia continue to press for a re-opening of the trial of the three Christians on death row. The mass demonstration in Poso on Monday was a reminder that government authorities would face loud protests if they granted that request

And most of you despise the Crusades...
But they never ended...

Brother Cadfael,
First of all if I wanted to get legalistic I might point out that it only says "is concieved as" not just "is."
However since the religious consent this passage demands rises primarily from the principle of auctoritatis, which is generally a vague sort of attitude that has much more to do with who is speaking than what precisely the text says, I admit such details are of little importance (as opposed to if we were looking at an ex cathedra text for example where the precise varbage is very important).
But what does it mean that it is an "organic presentation of the faith in its entirety."
First of all the "in its entirety" clearly from the context refers to the entirety of the faith not of the Catechism.
So the relevant part is that it is an "organic presentation" and that "it should therefore be seen as a unified whole."
It is a bit unclear to me what a practical application. Certainly the catagorizing, for instance, of some section (say, the section on prayer) as something other than a presentation of the Catholic faith would be unwarented in light of this statement. Does it however mean to state that every single statement in the catechism is a teaching on faith and morals?
It seems to me that this is taking the text farther than it is meant to go, especially in light of the actual content of the Catechism.
No doubt the majority is teaching on faith and morals, and all of it is ordered towards the presentation of the whole faith, becaused considered as an organic whole this is the purpose of the document. However it may sometimes be deemed helpful in presenting the faith to include some things, especially if they will likely be of importance in applying the Catechism to Christian education, that are not strictly speaking matters of faith and morals.
For instance there is the begining of CCC283: "The question about the origin of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendedly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man."
This is a matter of science, and while I have no problem with it it is not a part of the Catholic faith.
Again I will admit that the matter of whether Muslims worship God is less clear cut, and perhaps the fact that the statement is in multiple, very formal, and in one case self-proclamedly "organic" Magisterial documents does make it particularly difficult to say that it is contrary to the Catholic Faith.

J.R.,
I still don't see why the Catechism in general being a statement of the Catholic faith automatically means that EVERY SINGLE JOT of it is this.
Quote from paragraph 18 of the Catechism:
"This catechism is conceived as an organic presentation of the Catholic faith in its entirety. It should therefore be seen as a unified whole." (emphasis in Catechism)

I still don't see why the Catechism in general being a statement of the Catholic faith automatically means that EVERY SINGLE JOT of it is this. Certainly the majority is, but nothing in Fidai Depositum suggested to me that the Magisterium had limited itself strictly and entirely to this subject in the Catechism.
In fact, some of the things Fidai Depositum mentions as belonging in a catechism like the Fathers and Doctors of the Church and the application of the faith to new situations and problems would be difficult to address without at least some non-doctrinal statements.

J.R.,
My point in suggesting that you read FD was not that it in and of itself contained some great magisterial teaching, that is really quite beside the point. The point was how it describes the Catechism and tells us what the Catechism is. It is simply evidence of my previous point that the Catechism on the whole is an exposition of the Catholic Faith, and that you can't piecemeal it and say this part applies to faith and morals and this part doesn't.
I recognize your point about the first couple sentences of FD, my criticism applied more to the application of the same principle to the Catechism or to other types of magisterial documents. I am willing to accept, for the sake of argument at least, that some magisterial texts could contain parts that don't relate to faith and morals and therefore are not meant to be within the teaching office of the Church. Whether or not that is the case, it would not apply to the Catechism, where the Magisterium has told us that it is intended to be a systematic, organic expression of the Catholic Faith, and that you have to consider it as a unified whole.

Brother Cadfael,
I don't know where you get all that about specific sentences. The only two I mentioned were the first two of the Apostolic Constitution since I thought they were pretty clear cut, easy to find, right next to each other, etc.
In fact, it seems clear to me that the majority of Fidei Depositum is not teaching on faith and morals but describing the events leading to the writting of the Catechism, the arrangement of the text, etc.
The main purpose for the Apostolic Constitution is the first two sentences of section 3, where in extremely formal language approaching the level of infallibility the Pope declares the Catechism to be "a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium" and declares "it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion."
The document also contains a few other distict teachings, including the first sentence already quoted, but most of the text surrounding that important part is background information about the events leading up to the publication, a statement of how JPII uses Vatican II in his own ministry, a basic outline of the layout of the Catechism, statements about what the intentions of the Vatican in publishing this are and are not, a prayer to Mary, etc. This supplemental material serves as an excellent introduction to the Catechism but clearly is not Magisterial teaching on faith or morals in my view.

J.R.,
I don't think you can take any magisterial text sentence by sentence and say that this sentence relates to faith and morals and this sentence does not. If the first 12 sentences deal with faith and morals and sentences 14 through 20 do as well, it would seem unduly strained to claims that sentence 13 does not.
That doesn't mean the magisterial text should be read to be teaching something it is not. If, for example, a magisterial text mentions a scientific fact about which it wants to make an observation related to Revelation, it should not be read as "teaching" that scientific fact. It should be read, however, as teaching that the scientific fact has a deeper meaning than what science is competent to provide.
Same with Islam. The Magisterium is not "teaching" the tenets of Islam in CCC 841, LG 8, or NA 3. But it is "teaching" what truths of faith Christians can draw from Islam, and how Christians should relate to and with Muslims.
I think yoy may have missed one of my points, which upon reflection, may not have been articulated all that well. The Magisterium is the arbiter of what relates to faith and morals, and they will not spend the time writing entire magisterial documents unless the matter being covered relates to faith and morals. They will not spend considerable time at an ecumenical council debating points that do not relate to faith and morals. I think the fact that the points made with respect to Islam were (i)debated by the Council, (ii) included within a dogmatic constitution, (iii) a large portion of the subject of an entirely separate council document, (iv) and included within a document that is meant to be a systematic, organic presentation of the Catholic faith (a statement which is not necessarily true of other magisterial texts), is pretty solid evidence that the Magisterium has determined that the issues at hand relate to faith and morals.

To illustrate my general approach here, consider the first two sentences of Fidae Depositum:
Sentence l: "Guarding the Deposit of Faith is the mission which the Lord entrusted to His Church, and which she fulfills in every age."
This is a statement on faith, firmly to be held by every Catholic.
Sentence 2: "The Second Vatican Eccumenical Council, which was opened 30 years ago by my predecessor Pope John XXIII, of happy memory, had as its intention and purpose to hightlight the Church's apostolic and pastoral mission and by making the truth of the Goslep shine forth to lead all people to seek and recieve Christ's love which surpasses all knowledge."
Besides the statement that Christ's love surpasses all knowledge, this sentence addresses a matter of history. I have no reason to believe that anything in this sentence is not true (about Vatican II's intention and so forth) but it is not a matter of faith or morals but of history. I do not criticize JPII for including this. I would include such statements on other matters to tie a Magisterial document together as well. That does not mean that every single statement of an Apostolic Constitution or any other Magisterial document is Magisterial teaching on faith or morals.

Brother Cadfael,
I had not noticed that CCC 840-842 was a quote from Lumen Gentium. However, the fact remains if this and the quote from Nostra Aetate do not pertain to faith and morals in the sense in which the Magisterium has authority on those matters, then whatever Paul VI and the other bishops were thinking (or Gregory VII in his letter for that matter) the statement would still not be authoritative. I don't think the fact that this is from Lumen Gentium rather than the Catechism changes anything in this regard. In both cases if Infallible language is not used (or if an infallible dogma is not quoted) one is to give religious assent to all teachings on faith and morals contained in the document. I'm not sure if any element of auctoritatis still applies to such anthropological teaching or not.
Then again if the definition of faith is much more expansive than is plain to me (and something in my ideas on this subject is wrong because I can not figure out how the Church has the authority to infallibly declare that a person is in heaven even though it is neither a part of Sacred Scripture nor Sacred Tradition, nor a truth determined necessary in light of Scripture and Tradition) then you may be right here.
Or could that Muslims worship God be a truth made clear by the application Scripture and Tradition? Still I think at most you could say that Islam as traditionally presented to the West truely includes belief in the true God, not what any individual Muslim believes.
Also if a belief system professes blief in God but rejects the divinity of a member of the Trinity (again as opposed to never having heard of the Trinitarian nature of God) what do you make of that situation. I still think that this is a more complicated situation than you or the Vatican has been making it out to be.

J.R.,
Looking strictly at the matter, it does not seem to me that whether a Muslim worships God falls within the relm of Magisterial authority, only to what degree ideas presented as being Muslim agree or are incompatible with the Catholic Faith.
There are a couple points I should have made earlier, but better late than never. Section 841 of the Catechism, which is the section in question here, is a direct quote from Lumen Gentium, 8. Being a dogmatic constitution, LG is the most authoritative type of document that an ecumenical council can issue.
CCC 841 also cites to Nostra Aetate, 3. NA is the Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions issued by Vatican II. NA states, "The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself, merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth who has spoken to men, they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, jsut as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, his virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and social welfare, as well as peace and freedom."
And as to the first part of the second sentence (They adore the one God...Creator of heaven and earth), NA cites to St. Gregory VII's Letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania. It does not repeat what St. Gregory VII had to say, but presumably his letter supports the notion that Muslims worship the one God with Christians, since that is what it is cited for.
If the Second Vatican Council thought the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions was so important that it warranted not only a prominent mention in Lumen Gentium but also a separate document all to its own, I believe it is safe to say that the Bishops and Pope Paul VI regarded the issue to be one of faith and morals (as I think is clear in any event from the quoted text of NA above).
Even if the Catechism did contain throw-away points that did not have to do with faith and morals (a point which I continue to strenuously deny based on the very self-definition of the Catechism), I believe that it is even more difficult to argue in light of the above that the Magisterium does not regard this issue to be one of faith and morals and well within their teaching authority.

Brother Cadfael,
I can't speak for Jared Weber, but I do not question non-infallible Magisterial teachings on faith or morals. The issue is they may sometimes express an opinion that is not within the relm of their authority at all, and in that case their teaching does not demand religious assent. Looking strictly at the matter, it does not seem to me that whether a Muslim worships God falls within the relm of Magisterial authority, only to what degree ideas presented as being Muslim agree or are incompatible with the Catholic Faith.
Then again, the Church does have the authority to cannonize saints, and apparently the one point that the saint is in heaven is even infallible.
I have never fully understood how this was possible, so maybe it is true that my understanding of the scope of Magisterial authority is imperfect.

Mary,
Declaring whether a given person worships God is not a matter of faith and morals.
I would disagree, although it is a bit beside the point as the Magisterium does not generally make a point of publicly proclaiming whether or not a given person worships God. But if they have done so in the past (I'm not denying they have, I just am not familiar with a particular instance), I'd bet it was done publicly to teach the faithful in some measure about what constitutes authentic worship.

Some Day!!!!!
I don't have time to read everything I was just skimming through but I did not compare you to a Satanist!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No more than to St. Thomas Aquinas, or comparing St. Thomas to a Satanist. I did not even call Inquisitor Generalis a Satanist directly. He is just the closest thing to one I have encountered in (using the word "in" loosely) the Catholic Church, and I use the word Satanist to mean not necessarity worshipers of Satan (many Satanists don't believe Satan as an actual person really exists) but the general Satanist/Asatru approach to religion.
When I said "strange combination" I wasn't being sarcastic or anything I really meant the three of you were a strange combination, having not a lot in common beyond calling yourself Catholic (I'm pretty sure I read on I.G.'s blog that he is actually SSPX but I'd have to check that.
Got to run, but I'm REALLY sorry for the confusion.

I don't see how worshiping God could not be a matter of faith and morals!
Declaring whether a given person worships God is not a matter of faith and morals. Just like declaring a certain person is (or is not) a heretic is not.
That Arianism is a heresy is a matter of faith and morals. That Arian was a heretic who actually taught Arianism is not. (IIRC, a pope did say that Arian was not a heretic, and revised his opinion on being told more about his actual teachings.)

Br. C.: Thanks for the responses. Due to other responsibilities, I most likely won't have time to read them this week. But I want to assure you that I will, in fact, read them and take your comments under advisement.
Thanks again.

Some Day,
Br. C,
Are they argueing that "day-to-day" teachings are "Magesterial"?

No, I am. "Magisterial" should not be confused with "infallible." The Magisterium teaches "day-to-day" even when it is not exercising its charism of infallibility.
Because I understand that it requires a doctrine defended by several Popes and sometimes Saints.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, but one definitive statement by a single Pope ex cathedra on a matter of faith and morals would be sufficient to render a particular teaching infallible. (That would be an exercise of the "extraordinary" magisterium. Another exercise of the "extraordinary" magisterium would be a definitive statement by the Bishops, acting in communion with the Pope, in an ecumenical council.) You may be referring to an exercise of the "ordinary" magisterium, whereby a given teaching may become infallible because it is uniformly (in a relative, not absolute sense) taught "everywhere and always" by the ordinary magisterium. This is the basis on which the teaching in Humanae Vite is regarded as infallible -- because the Pope explicitly recognized that the ordinary magisterium had always and everywhere taught that contraception is inherently wrong.
As a practical matter, even the exercise of the extraordinary magisterium is going to involve matters that have been reflected on by the Church for centuries. In other words, the ordinary magisterium has taught these matters for centuries, but there is perhaps enough doubt about the uniformity or clarity of teaching that a particular Pope or particular Council thinks it important to exercise the extraordinary magisterium and clear up the matter once and for all.
Sorry for the rambling nature of this -- I probably succeeded only in creating more questions than answers.

Some Day,
I read J.R.'s post to be calling the Inquisitor Generalis "the closest thing to a Catholic Satanist you can get", not you! (J.R. can of course confirm.) But I will readily confirm that you will graciously admit it on the rare occasions when you've been in error.

Br. C,
Are they argueing that "day-to-day" teachings are "Magesterial"?
Because I understand that it requires a doctrine defended by several Popes and sometimes Saints.

I don't mind being called "zelous".
It is rather a compliment. But what has me really insulted and angry is that I believed you compared me to a "satanist".
That is no acceptable. You may believe Islam is a religion of peace and whatnot, or that the SAINTS that proclaimed the Crusades and the Iquisition are wrong, some day that will be cleared up, and then we will see the Truth. Now if you want to argue, and it won't do any bad to your soul, then fine we can continue on those two points as civilized Catholic gentleman. Until then, don't ever liken me to a satanist. I am a Roman Catholic and will die as one and don't mind dying for being one. If I misunderstood you then I'm sorry, you can ask Br. Cafadel that I am willing to admit error when I err.

Jared and J.R.,
I believe that you are making a common mistake, exemplified in the following comment from Jared:
I'd need to see where they'd said that CCC 841 is definitely to be taken as absolute cold, hard truth. I'm not saying it's not (definitively); I'm just saying that I doubt it and need to be shown the Magisterium's assertion that it is definite, beyond doubt.
Not all magisterial teachings are "definite, beyond doubt." In fact, quantitatively speaking, most teaching of the Magisterium is what might be called "the day-to-day teaching of the Church, which is covered by the promise: 'He that hears you hears me [Lk 10:16].'" See Humani Generis. These day-to-day teachings are not infallible, they do not require the same response of "divine and Catholic faith" or firm assent that is required of an infallible teaching. But, as CDF noted in Donum Veritatis (33), this does not open the door for theological positivism:
"[F]requently, it is asserted that the theologian is not bound to adhere to any Magisterial teaching unless it is infallible. Thus a kind of theological positivism is adopted, according to which, doctrines proposed without exercise of the charism of infallibility are said to have no obligatory character about them, leaving the individual completely at liberty to adhere to them or not. Donum Veritatis, 33.
With respect to the Catechism, it is "an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition." (CCC, 11.) "This Catechism is conceived as an organic presentation of the Catholic faith in its entirety. It should be seen therefore as a unified whole." (CCC, 13 -- emphasis is not mine, it is in the Catechism). The purpose is to "allow the reader to view each theme in its relationship with the entirety of the faith." (CCC, 13.)
The document as a whole pertains to faith and morals, and it is an exercise of the ordinary universal magisterium's day-to-day teaching office. It is not, on the whole, infallible or meant to be definitive in every respect. But those who would turn it into a Jeffersonian Catechism, discarding those parts they don't view as appropriate to the teaching office of the Church unless it is "proven" that the Magisterium intended differently, bear the burden of proof.
I simply think the two of you are asking the wrong questions. Rather than asking whether the Catechism relates to a matter of faith and morals (this really is not debatable, in my opinion), you should be asking what level of authority a particular teaching within the Catechism has? To what extent has the Magisterium engaged its authority? How is this to be understood in light of previous and/or subsequent magisterial teachings? What is the appropriate response to a magisterial teaching that is not per se irreformable (ie infallible)?
And J.R., it has certainly not been my intention to be uncharitable in any of my posts -- I don't know which you regard that way. But I do have a fault for being somewhat more difficult on my friends than on my enemies, and I certainly regard us being on the same side of a noble fight. I admire your passion and the intellectual rigor you bring to these debates, and wish that I had been similarly inspired at your age. If I have offended you in any way, be certain that was not my intent and accept my apology.
I doubt that I have answered all of your questions, and perhaps none to your satisfaction, but just let me know.

Maybe it is worth reminding everyone who has posted recently here that everyone who has posted here recently (with the possible exception of the anonymous poster who wrote about killing pagans and heretics) is on the same basic side. We should not let debates on these kinds of things that lie on the fringes of the Catholic Faith divide us too much. Remember the teachings of Paul on divisions in the Church. Remember always that the whole point of Religion is to draw you closer to God, eventually to loving union with Him, "me in you and you in me, in time and in Eternity, in Mary" as a beautiful prayer goes.
And Some Day, just in case you take offence at my calling you a "Zealous teenager", remember this is comming from a mediocre college student barely able to buy alcohol legaly, who aspires to monasticism while being unable keep from getting uncharitable or vulgar on a Catholic website. The same term could be used to describe me just two years ago anyway, so I did not mean it in a diminutive way, or to suggest I am more spiritually mature than you. It was just a short way of characterizing you.

Brother Cadfael,
A few more things.
read Fidei Depositum
I already have (a wile ago), but I plan to read it again to see what point you are trying to make, though a brief skimming shed no light.
Are you suggesting that "ecumenical stuff" does not pertain to faith and morals? If so, I'd say you missed a turn back there.
Many teachings on faith and morals could be labled "eccumenical stuff," but not all eccumenical statements could be labled Magisterial teaching. This I think is clear. If the Pope says "Methodists are generally nice people" even in an encyclical or something that is eccumenical in the sense of the word I was thinking of but it is not Magisterial teaching. If he said, "the Methodist idea of grace is correct in most essentials but deficient in the understanding of sanctification" (I'm not sure if this is true, I just made it up from my own impression) it would be a Magisterial teaching, assuming he was teaching in his office as Pope.
One can accept the divinity of God and not understand that One God is Three Persons. (See Judaism.)
See my comment on pre-Christian Jews (it would also apply to Jews very poorly educated about Christianity). This does not address the situation of when a person rejects the divinity of a Person of the Trinity. Jesus is as much God as God the Father. The rejection of his divinity is as complete a rejection of the divinity of God as the rejection of the Father's divinity. This is different than just not knowing about the Trinitarian nature of God.
I don't think I can comment your last points without just repeating myself.
I'm looking forward to your response.

Br.C.: I think what I've been trying to say is, I don't really see how the Magisterium can know with 100% certainty whom it is that the Muslims worship, any more than I can know whom the man I pass on the street is talking to on his cell.
As JR points out, the Magisterium is competent to point out the truth about who God is, etc. and to that extent, that truth applies to all peoples because we live in the same universe. The demands of morals are the same for all and faith (the belief in that which IS) are the same for all. But that isn't the question at hand. The question at hand is, whom are the Mohammedans calling upon? It seems to me that the Magisterium can get a good idea, but I'd need to see where they'd said that CCC 841 is definitely to be taken as absolute cold, hard truth. I'm not saying it's not (definitively); I'm just saying that I doubt it and need to be shown the Magisterium's assertion that it is definite, beyond doubt.
Add to all that (and I know I need to find this to back it up) the fact I THOUGHT (and yeah, I've been wrong on this stuff before) that the Church had, in past centuries, made statements that contradict CCC 841. Gotta check on that though.

Brother Cadfael,
I think your charity is wearing a little thin in some of your posts, but mine even more for which I apologize. The internet is a temptation-ridden medium in this way. I’ll try to do better.
The way I understand it, the "faith" tought by the Magisterium is the Catholic Faith, exclusively.
No. For example, Pope John Paul II made quite clear in his catechesis on marriage that what he had to say was meant for all, not simply Catholics. When the Magisterium expounds on the natural law, it is not expounding on the Cathlic Faith, but on truths that are binding for all.
I agree with all this, but he is there teachings the tenets of the Catholic Faith, and when it comes to individual action, morality. What the Magisterium teaches is revealed truth, which is more or less equivalent to the Catholic Faith. It applies to everyone. Catholic teaching on Marriage applies to everyone just like Catholic teaching on the Trinity or the inerrancy of the Bible or anything else.
What the Church does not have the authority to teach is matters of science or history or the tenets of other religions, except for the matter of whether any one of these things is compatible with revealed truth or morality or not.
And while the Magisterium does not have the competence to tell a Muslim what he or she should or should not believe, it does have the competence to tell the world in what respect any particular tenet of the Muslim faith is compatible with the truth.
The Magisterium does have the competence to tell a Muslim what he or she should not believe (the truth), just not the competence to say what the tenets of Islam are. Perhaps this is what you meant.
The second part of your sentence is what I have been trying to say.
If it pertains to the true God and what we are to know about Him, the Magisterium is competent. That's their job.
Right. The question is just, does stating whether the Allah of the Muslims is the true God constitute getting into Muslim tenets or psychology or is it saying whether the Muslim concept of Allah as commonly presented is close enough to the truth to be called God. I am not sure of the answer, but again it seems to me that it is the former. If they specifically said “this idea of Islam is compatible this far with the Faith” that would be authoritative, though it would not be an authoritative statement that the Muslims really think of God that way. The Magistarium can say whether an idea is heretical, but not necessarily whether an actual people believes in that idea. For instance I have read that the "Nestorians" may never have believed what in the Catholic Church was classically presented as Nestorianism. The condemnation of that mistaken idea of Nestorianism was right, but it is a matter for historians to decide if any people actually held that heresy.
In a similar vein, I don’t think the Magisterium has the competency to say who believes in God and who does not, just what ideas of God are heretical or not.
Perhaps then the Magisterium could say "this idea of God is close enough to be identified as truly God" without commenting (or assuming the comment is authoritative) that the idea is an accurate representation of what Muslims really believe.
Sorry if all this is confused and self-contradicting. Realize that I am not sure of any of this (despite what some sloppy writing might suggest) and am just giving my thoughts as they come to me. Before today (or it is already yesterday where I am) I had assumed without much thought that the Allah of the Muslims was just an imperfect idea of God.

J.R.,
You are correct, it is not a good idea to go around killing someone just because they aren't Catholic. (And you can quote me on that!)

J.R.,
Again, from the fact that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are fully God, not thirds of God. To reject the divinity of one of them is to reject the divinity of God generally. Then again what is the situation when someone says they accept the divinity of one or two of these persons (as the one true God, not finite gods like believed by the Mormons) but rejects the divinity of at least one person?
One can accept the divinity of God and not understand that One God is Three Persons. (See Judaism.)
Since the Muslims, besides rejecting the divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit profess not to believe God is Father in any sence, and apparently often (though not always) even reject that he loves anyone, it seems to me that the idea of God the Father is so widely divergant from the truth that they can not be said to accept him either, thus without question their Allah (as opposed to the Arabic Christian use of the same word) is not God.
They understand that the God of Abraham is divine, omniscient, omnipotent, merciful and, generally speaking the Creator and sole Ruler of the universe. They do not understand a lot of his other traits, and essential ones at that, but I think the Magisterium is dead on when they say that we worship the same God. (And is the Magisterium so wrong on this point that you could arrogantly say "without question" Allah is not God?)
Again, if it relates to the worship of God, it relates to faith, and it is within the competence of Magisterium to teach the truth. I will spend some time with this to see if there is anything I can find to make this point clear.

I think it's pretty clear that the intent of the Moslems would be to get us to renounce our Catholicism. Hairsplitting is covered in 2 Maccabees 6:18-31, the story of Eleazar.
I'll go first, while the blade is still sharp, because I could really use a stunt like this to help get my butt into Heaven...

J.R.,
The way I understand it, the "faith" tought by the Magisterium is the Catholic Faith, exclusively.
No. For example, Pope John Paul II made quite clear in his catechesis on marriage that what he had to say was meant for all, not simply Catholics. When the Magisterium expounds on the natural law, it is not expounding on the Cathlic Faith, but on truths that are binding for all.
Do we agree up to this point? I hope so and suspect so.
Not exactly. And while the Magisterium does not have the competence to tell a Muslim what he or she should or should not believe, it does have the competence to tell the world in what respect any particular tenet of the Muslim faith is compatible with the truth.
whether he actually is the true God seems to me a matter of anthropology and psycology, not the Catholic Faith.
Doesn't matter what you call it. If it pertains to the true God and what we are to know about Him, the Magisterium is competent. That's their job.
where does it say that it contains nothing but teachings on faith and morals?
I do not know of anywhere where it says what it does not teach. (I don't know why there would be any such statement.) I would suggest that you begin by reading Fidei Depositum, which is the apostolic constitution presenting the Catechism (it is only about 5 pages). You will find nothing in there suggesting that parts of the Catechism deal with faith and morals and parts deal with other things. Everything in part I relates to what the Church professes.
This would I admit be a bit of a fuzzy case.
I'm sorry. I may not be articulating it all that well, but it is not fuzzy at all.
In any event, just because you assume that the bishops would not put anything into the Catechism that is not teaching on faith and morals doesn't mean they did not.
Again, read Fidei Depositum. You seem to be missing the point of what the Catechism is.
If I were them I might also put in some eccumentical stuff...
Are you suggesting that "ecumenical stuff" does not pertain to faith and morals? If so, I'd say you missed a turn back there.

Shoot, turns out everything within < >'s gets hidden. I was making an intentional reference to Monty Python and the Holy Grail with my comment to Brother Cadfael ("Brother _____ you're our scholar") that I thought was funny even if no one else would have.
The point is that this seems to me such a clear-cut thing that despite the Medieval confusion it is almost silly to need even to look up stuff to prove you shouldn't kill someone just because they aren't Catholic.

Some Day,
To be fair, most Muslims I am sure would not kill children without flinching. I think you would at least get a flinch, they are human after all. Seriously I doubt most would want to directly kill "infidel" children, though it would seem that those who think killing heretics is wrong or violently invading other lands and forcing the population to convert to Islam is wrong are the Muslim equivalent of Cafeteria Catholics.
Then again, I recall hearing some Catholics saying the killing of heretics was good. Oh yeah, that was you, Inquisitor Generalis, and St. Thomas Aquinas. Zealous Catholic teenager, closest thing to a Catholic Satanist you can get (if his ideas are realy what he presents; I still hope he and his friends are an enormous prank), and canonized Saint/most exalted Doctor of the Church though known more for intellect than heart during the part of his life when he wrote. Strange combination.
Most all other Catholics I have encountered including myself are repulsed by the idea of killing heretics, except maybe for plotting to overthrow the Catholic Government (I believe that was St. Thomas More's position) but the crime there is conspiracy to overthrow the Government not heresy.
Brother Cadfael you're our scholar any definitive authoritative Magisterial quotes to settle that matter for all faithful Catholics? Or anyone else of course. I think I'll look it up myself too.

Brother Cadfael,
They clearly reject the divinity of the second two persons of the Trinity, and the concept of God as a Father is anathema to Muslims, but how do you get from there to rejection of the divinity of God generally?
Again, from the fact that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are fully God, not thirds of God. To reject the divinity of one of them is to reject the divinity of God generally. Then again what is the situation when someone says they accept the divinity of one or two of these persons (as the one true God, not finite gods like believed by the Mormons) but rejects the divinity of at least one person?
From Jesus' "he who rejects me rejects the one who sent me" it would seem to me that the most logical answer is that such a person rejects the divinity of God generally and believes in a single false, distinctly non-Trinitarian god. I do not claim that it is clear that this is the case though.
Since the Muslims, besides rejecting the divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit profess not to believe God is Father in any sence, and apparently often (though not always) even reject that he loves anyone, it seems to me that the idea of God the Father is so widely divergant from the truth that they can not be said to accept him either, thus without question their Allah (as opposed to the Arabic Christian use of the same word) is not God.
To look at it from another angle, while the Catechism does speak of those who believe in the Creator, I do not believe that any god believed to be the creator of the world automatically is that same Creator. The "Great Spirit" (I wonder how accurate the translation to the word "Spirit" could be) of some American Indians leaves footprints on the earth and kills and eats bison. Is it necessary to say he is the One True God just because they believe he is the creator. What about the mortal creator of all good creatures of Yuma mythology who was killed by a frog? What about the Brahman (sp.?) of the basically polytheistic/pantheistic Hindus? The list could go on and on.
And keep in mind, Jews also reject the divinity of the second two persons of the Trinity.
A tragic fact, though they do sometimes call God father (though not in all the same sences of course) and accept almost all the Old Testament, so I would say there is a better chance of them being the confusing case of rejecting the divinity of two Persons of God but accepting one. I'm not sure what to do in this case. I would like to think my Jewish friends and family truely worship the true God, but my wanting something does not make it so. Perhaps it can come down to "I beleive in God but not in God or God" in which case the person is contradicting himself, but since they put their trust in God perhaps that tiny bit of faith will be enough to count. I hope so.
Note that this is not the same as the situation of the pre-Christian Jews who (with the possible acception of of some Prophets who I think may have had this revealed to them but were only permitted to hint at it) had not had revealed to them the Trinity, just the fact that there was one God, so they certainly worshiped that one God. Once they learn about and reject a person of the Trinity they are then rejecting that one God, so you have a whole different situation.

If muslims believed in the One, True God, they would be heretics. But since they a believe in a god, they are pagan.
Are they heretics or pagans?
Pick one.

If Allah is the exact translation for God in Arabic, and there is no other word then fine. But since from what I understand, it is not, then you can't use it. Know if some of you want to defend muslims who would chop you and your childrens heads off with out blinking, then fine go ahead.
Islam may say they believe in one god, but it is not The God. Muslims are pagans no matter how you look at it. Zorasters (is that how you spell it) would be as "good"as muslims if believeing in one God is the key to being a good person.
Now regardless of how "nice-guy"a muslim can be, he is a muslim and that is serious stuff.
If you loved the Church completely and as we should, we would have a holy repugnance to Islam, because they do to us. A pacific muslim is like a cafeteria catholic.

Brother Cadfael,
First of all, hopefully we can agree that this is not a matter of morals.
So is it a matter of faith?
The way I understand it, the "faith" tought by the Magisterium is the Catholic Faith, exclusively. The very begining of the [section?] in question would be included in this, namely "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator". The Magisterium also can certainly teach whether a certain belief of another religion is compatible with the Catholic Faith or not, for instance is the Talmudic belief that God created the Hebrew alphabet before even creating light compatible with the Christian faith or would holding it constitute heresy? However, it has no particular compitency deciding what exactly constitutes another religion. For instance, it has no authority (behond that of any other human institution) when it comes to deciding whether under Shiite tradition a certain food is ok to eat, or whether Hindu gods and goddesses literally have sex or is this just a metaphor for some spiritual generative process, or under what conditions divorce is permissible under Rabbinical tradition.
Do we agree up to this point? I hope so and suspect so.
The question now is, under what catagory does the issue of whether the Allah of Islam is the true God. It seems to me that while it is certainly within the scope of Magisterial authority to say if this or that aspect of the Muslim Allah applies to God (and you can find aspects in any divinity that in truth apply to God, like great power and worhip-ablity, and often creation) but whether he actually is the true God seems to me a matter of anthropology and psycology, not the Catholic Faith.
About every sentence of the Catechism being teaching on faith or morals, where does it say this? It is a "sure norm" for teaching the faith certainly, but where does it say that it contains nothing but teachings on faith and morals? If it does not say this anywhere, then I think it is safe to suggest that something seeming not to address the Catholic faith or morals in fact does not. This would I admit be a bit of a fuzzy case. In any event, just because you assume that the bishops would not put anything into the Catechism that is not teaching on faith and morals doesn't mean they did not. If I were them I might also put in some eccumentical stuff and some historical and scientific data (science indicating antiquity of the Earth anyone?), assuming that most people will be able to tell that this stuff does not pertain to faith and morals but was considered worthwhile to put in there for other reasons. I think this is exactly what they did, whether or not this one statement is a teaching on faith or not.
Again, if you have any information contradicting this I will gladly receave it.

Jared,
Magisterial competence is not limited to matters "essential" to the faith. The Magisterium is competent to teach authoritatively on all matters "of faith and morals."
There is much in the Catechism that would not pass your definition of essential, but it all pertains to matters "of faith and morals."
As for the "more," pointing out what is true and what is false in the Muslim concept of God is enlightening for all peoples, not just Muslims.

Sorry. Typos. My sentence should read, "Basically, the reason I don't see this statement (and, frankly, CCC 841 is, itself, not devoid of a certain ambiguity) as pertanent to faith or morals is that I don't see it as essential to faith, and certainly not to leading a Christian life or attaining salvation."

Br. C.: I'm having trouble saying exactly what I mean. Basically, the reason I don't see this statement (and, frankly, CCC 841 is, itself, not devoid of a certain ambiguity) is that I don't see it as essential to faith, and certainly not to leading a Christian life or attaining salvation.
Put it this way: to someone who never came into contact with Mohammedans (or Christians who lived before Mohammed), this statement is completely inconsequential.
[As an aside, some might say the same of any Christian statement prior to 1 AD (or 4 BC depending upon whom you believe) but the fact is, that the Messiah was always important to all people, whether they knew (know) it or not.]
You write: "This is more than simply correcting the errors of Muslims so that they can be brought into the fold (although there is that)." So, forgive me for being dense, but, what is the "more" of which you write? I fail to see any other purpose.

J.R.,
...accept the divinity of an "Allah" who they apparently never call the Father, I would hold that the evidence leans toward their rejection of the divinity of God generally...
I'm not following you here. They clearly reject the divinity of the second two persons of the Trinity, and the concept of God as a Father is anathema to Muslims, but how do you get from there to rejection of the divinity of God generally?
And keep in mind, Jews also reject the divinity of the second two persons of the Trinity.

Jared,
No, it really doesn't. The Magisterium is concerned with teaching the truth about God. It has acknowledged that other religions have some truth (and therefore some truth about God) contained within them. It is well within the Magisterium's competence (indeed, one might even say it is a magisterial duty) to communicate to the faithful (and to the world) what is true and what is false about the Muslim concept of God.
This is more than simply correcting the errors of Muslims so that they can be brought into the fold (although there is that). But even if that's all there was to it, it is still a matter of faith and morals. The Church is absolutely concerned with the evangelization (and therefore the faith) of the entire world, and is competent to address any matter relating to the worship of God and the natural law.
Again, if it is in the Catechism, it relates to a matter of faith and morals. (This shouldn't be confused with the magisterial authority that any particular teaching within the Catechism has; the individual teachings within it may be more or less authoritative.)

Br. C: I'm hedging on this because what Muslims teach about God doesn't apply to Catholics. I'm not saying that Islam is a complete lie. Just partially (mostly?) a lie. To that extent, the only reason Islam's teachings matter is so that we can correct their errors and bring them into the True Church.
In other words, I don't see this as a matter of faith, since Islam is the belief (faith) of Mohammedans. Does that make sense to you?

Jared,
Everything in the Catechism relates to faith and morals. It wouldn't be in there if it didn't.
But even putting aside the question of whether "faith" is limited to the faith of Catholics (is not the Church made visible for the salvation of all?), the question of whether Allah is God and whether a Catholic can appropriately worship Allah are certainly matters of faith and morals.
I'm not sure how that could be much clearer.

Brother Cadfael: I'm not so sure I agree with your assessment.
Firstly, whether Allah is God is certainly no question of morals for Catholics. In other words, it doesn't affect how we are to treat them, which is basically morality in action. So that's out.
Secondly, it doesn't affect my faith either. I know what the Catholic Church teaches about God (to my limited capacity). In a certain sense, that is what is important to my faith, to know who God is. In this sense, it matters not what others teach about him.
So, strictly speaking, I don't see how this statement (CCC 841) relates to either faith or morals.
Maybe I'm wrong. If so, can you supply me with some specifics?

J.R.,
As to whether they can be said to worship God, I find that a difficult subject.
First of all the Magisterium at least these days has been saying that they do, but if this is not a matter of faith or morals (and I don't see how it could be) then this matters little.
I don't see how worshiping God could not be a matter of faith and morals!
With all due respect, I think your analysis is a little confused on this topic. The worship of God obviously is matter of faith, so there is no question about whether the Magisterium is trying to address something outside of its area of competence (which is all the "faith and morals" question addresses).

Mark,
The Jesus of the Quran clearly refers to the historical man, Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary, the promised Messiah. The denial of his divinity by Muslims is the primary thing that makes their view of him so inaccurate, but the connection to the historical Jesus eliminates (in my opinion) the possiblity of making him a fictional character in your mind with whom you may not have a problem.
See above
I was basing my opinion mainly on what is written above. I do not think your attepted reconciliation works. For instance, it is impossible to worship Jesus in a way that detracts from God because Jesus is God. If the Quran is reconcilable with Christianity then it seems to me you have to be able to say "do not worship God as a god in derrogation of God."
Besides, what about issue of no public revelation after Christ (you seem to believe the Quran is equal to the Bible, if not please clarify that) and the consistantly bad fruits the Quran has produced throughout Muslim history.
If I have misrepresented the teachings of the Church, for instance in saying that the statement in the Catechism on Islam is not a matter of faith or morals, then that was my honest mistake which I will retract if you can produce a quote from Magisterial teaching showing that or even a convincing arguement that I am wrong. Also as you no doubt acknowledge, your quote applies as much to you (and to the Quran I say) as to me, or any human words.

If almost a millenia-and-a-half of religio-contradiction isn't enough to convince you that Mohammedanism is--without extreme and fundamental alteration--irreconcilably opposed to Catholicism, I certainly won't be able to make any headway.
Sorry, but I don't subscribe to theories of irreconcilability. If you don't believe the "Allah" or "Jesus" of the Quran is God or Jesus, then why should you have a problem with attesting, as (you interpret) the Quran does, that the "Jesus" of the Quran is not the Son of God? You suffer from your own contradictions.
Even if there is a way to rationally reconcile the Quran with true Revelation (and I doubt this is the case but I have never read the Quran except for some excerpts including the ones given here)
See above.
it is plain that the interpretation of Muslims is quite contrary to revelation
It is likewise plain that the day-to-day interpretations of millions of would-be Catholics of their own Church's teachings is also imperfect. Perhaps that's why Paul said so simply, "Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written: 'So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.'"

JRS: Just a comment on the fact that Mohammedans "undeniably reject the divinity of one Person of the Trinity, seem to reject even the existence of another ...."
The koran asserts that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit, and, since Gabriel isn't God but a created being, then the koran undeniably denies the Third Person of the Trinity as well.
Other than that, I see no flaws in your reasoning.

Even if there is a way to rationally reconcile the Quran with true Revelation (and I doubt this is the case but I have never read the Quran except for some excerpts including the ones given here) it is plain that the interpretation of Muslims is quite contrary to revelation, especially the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Redemption by Christ's death and ressurection.
Because they deny Christ come in the flesh it is clear that they are anti-Christ.
As to whether they can be said to worship God, I find that a difficult subject.
First of all the Magisterium at least these days has been saying that they do, but if this is not a matter of faith or morals (and I don't see how it could be) then this matters little.
Therefore let's look at what Jesus had to say on the matter: "He who hears you [the aplostles and implicitly their successors] hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
At least in some sence then, anyone who rejects Christ or the Magisterium of His Church rejects God generally. The role invincible ignorance can play in preventing this succession of rejections from following one another is debatible. Does one have to know that rejecting the authority Bishops of the Catholic Church means a rejection of God for this verse to apply? If that were the case it would presumably never or almost never happen, so why would Jesus bother saying it?
Muslims go farther by not only rejecting the Magisterium but the entire Church flat out and deny Christ by making him out to be something so widely divergent from who He is that there is really no relevant resemblance. By doing so do they automatically reject God? A plain reading of Scripture would seem to suggest that, though again invincible ignorance may come into play.
Does the rejection of God constitute not believing in God? Clearly no, since Satan and some Satanists believe in God yet reject Him.
However, Muslims do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, who is fully God in and of Himself. Therefore they reject the divinity of God in His entirety.
However, while it is less clear, it would seem that they accept the divinity of God the Father, and therefore of God in His entirety.
We therefore have a self-contradiction here on the part of the Muslims.
It is definitely an unclear picture, but since they undeniably reject the divinity of one Person of the Trinity, seem to reject even the existence of another (each of which is fully the One True God in their own right), and accept the divinity of an "Allah" who they apparently never call the Father, I would hold that the evidence leans toward their rejection of the divinity of God generally, worshiping rather a single oppressive partiarchal warrior god of their own imagining whom they wrongly identify as the God of Abraham.
Just throwing my ideas out there for the heck of it. Ignore it if you want, but comments on it might help me (and hopfully others) make up their minds on the subject.

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