Schism And Mortal Sin

by Jimmy Akin on September 25, 2006

in Moral Theology

A reader writes:

Are Sedevacantists excommunicated, outside the grace of the Church?  What I’m asking, I guess, are followers of the schismatic doctrine of Sedevacantism (and to a lesser extent, I suppose, that of SSPX) in mortal sin?

Excommunication is an ecclesiastical censure that has specific effects that are defined by canon law. These effects are found in Canon 1331, which can be read HERE. The effects listed do not include being "outside the grace of the Church." The latter could be interpreted in several ways, and I’m not entirely sure what is intended, but I can say that excommunication neither places a person outside the Church nor does it deprive him of grace.

It does, however, presuppose that the individual has committed a grave sin. That is why, as an excommunicate, he is not allowed to receive the sacraments until he repents, for it would be sacrilege for him to do so in what must be presumed to be a state of mortal sin.

The grave sin that sedevacanists (and those who have formally adhered to the schism of the SSPX) have committed is the sin of schism. Schism is both a sin and a canonical crime, and its definition as a canonical crime is as follows:

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

If a person commits the canonical crime of schism, as defined above, then he is liable for the penalty of excommunication:

Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.

The fact that it is latae sententiae means that the excommunication doesn’t have to be declared by an ecclesiastical authority. It occurs automatically when the person commits the crime of schism.

But the way canon law is written, it is not enough to note that a person has outwardly committed a schismatic act and then conclude that he is necessarily excommunicated. Canon law contains a number of provisions that could keep the excommunication from taking its effect, or at least from taking effect automatically. Many of these are listed in canons 1323 and 1324.

You’ll note that one of these provisions is that a person is not subject to the penalty if they committed their offense through innocent ignorance, inadvertence, or error (1323 no. 2). This means that if a person (sedevacantist or otherwise) committed a schismatic act in one of these conditions then he would not be automatically excommunicated.

It is thus possible for one to commit an objectively schismatic act without incurring excommunication.

But assume that a sedevacantist can’t get out based on one of these exceptions in the law (either the three I named or the others), would he then incur excommunication?

Yes.

If a person maintains that the current Roman Pontiff (Benedict XVI) is not a valid pope then he thereby refuses submission to the Roman Pontiff. It is not enough to say, "I’m loyal to the office, I just don’t think that guy occupies it." You have to be in submission to the actual pontiff. You can’t be in submission to an office. If there is presently a Roman Pontiff (and there always is except in interregnums) and you ain’t in submission to him then you’re a schismatic.

You can also fail to be in submission to the Roman Pontiff in other ways, as the leaders of the SSPX were when they participated in episcopal ordinations contrary to a specific papal order–see John Paul II’s motu proprio, Ecclesia Dei. As the pontiff warned in this same document, those who formally adhere to this schism also incurred excommunication.

All of this deals with the canonical censure of excommunication, but we still have to look at the moral (as opposed to canonical) question: Are sedevacantists and other schismatics in mortal sin?

It depends. Any time anyone commits an objectively grave sin (and schism is one such sin) then they are potentially in mortal sin. Whether they are actually in mortal sin depends on whether they committed their offense with sufficient knowledge of its moral character and whether they gave it deliberate consent.

If a schismatic lacked sufficient knowledge of the moral character of what they were doing (e.g., they didn’t realize that being a Catholic was important or they didn’t realize that what they were doing was actually schimatic) or if they didn’t give deliberate consent to the act (e.g., because they were suffering from a severe psychological illness that prevented them from deliberately consenting to any of their actions) then they would not be in mortal sin. They would still have sinned gravely, but the sin would not be mortal.

On the other hand, if they had sufficient knowledge of the character of their act (and they have sufficient knowledge as long as they had enough knowledge that they should have known what they were doing was gravely sinful, so their ignorance wasn’t innocent) and they just up and did it anyway then their actions were mortally sinful and they will not go to heaven unless they repent.

As always, we can’t judge whether any particular person is in mortal sin, but those are the underlying principles.

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Kansas City Star... that's what I are!
Yodle-odle-ay-ee... you oughtta see my car!

John,
As far as the holy spirit-if the Pope did not invoke the holy spirit as he announced the council was to be pastoral and not doctrinal as many theologians have stated , as well as Pope Paul VI who repeated likewise that this was a pastoral and not a doctrinal council, then the holy spirit was not invoked
Are there no depths to which you will not stoop to try to sell your particularly vile version of cafeteria Catholicism? Suggesting that the Holy Spirit was not invoked for the Second Vatican Council is preposterous, but what else should we come to expect from you?
The Holy Spirit was quite clearly, specifically and repeatedly invoked, and the entire Second Vatican Council took place under his guidance.
Here, for example, is the prayer that was used before every meeting of preparatory commissions and conciliar commissions of Vatican II:
We are here before You, O Holy Spirit, conscious of our inumerable sins, but united in a special way in Your Holy Name. Come and abide with us. Deign to penetrate our hearts.
Be the guide of our actions, indicate the path we should take, and show us what we must do so that, with Your help, our work may be in all things pleasing to You.
May You be our only inspiration and the overseer of our intentions, for You alone possess a glorious name together with the Father and the Son.
May You, who are infinite justice, never permit that we be disturbers of justice. Let not our ignorance induce us to evil, nor flattery sway us, nor moral and material interest corrupt us. but unite our hearts to You alone, and do it strongly, so that, with the gift of Your grace,we may be one in You and may in nothing depart from the truth.
Thus, united in Your name, may we in our every action follow the dictates of Your mercy and justice, so that today and always our judgments may not be alien toYou and in eternity we may obtain the unending reward of our actions.
Amen.
In his opening message on October 11, 1962, the Holy Father called for the bishops' "prompt obedience to the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit," and he called on Almighty God to "aid their counsels and their legislation with the light of your divine grace."
The opening message of the Council restates it quite clearly, as Mary Kay has pointed out: "In this assembly, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we wish to inquire how we ought to renew ourselves, so that we may be found increasingly faithful to the gospel of Christ."
And that same message concludes, "To be sure, we are lacking in human resources and earthly power. Yet we lodge our trust in the power of God's Spirit, who was promised to the Church by the Lord Jesus Christ...."
You may not like what the Holy Spirit did with the Council, you may think that He did not provide enough guidance, you may not like the pontiffs He has chosen to lead His Church, you may think that He has somehow abandoned His Church, but do not think that you are being Catholic when you think those things.

John,
Mr Shea followed me onto Amy Welbornes and the topic was Nostre Aetate some time back and was trying to instigate her against me
I doubt very much that Amy needs any instigating, as you say, against your noxious posting, unless you are very much different on her site than you are here.

John, I have a book of The Documents of Vatican II. Although I could not find the paragraph you cited (and I did think that if you presented it, that you could say where you found it), I did the opening message released 9 days after the opening of the Council.
"Message to Humanity (followed by) issued at the beginning of the Second Vatican Council by its fathers with the endorsement of the Supreme Pontiff."
The third paragraph says, "In this assembly, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we wish to inquire how we out to renew ourselves, so that we may be found increasingly faithful to the gospel of Christ."
The rest of it is beautiful to read and I leave it to you to read it.

J.R., yes I had the impression that you're working this one out.
There's been a lot of theoretical "what ifs" in this thread, but Vatican II happened at a real historical moment through real people and circumstances that you can read about from a number of sources.
There are two presuppositions in your paragraph that sound like they've come from those hostile to Vatican II.
One is the Vatican was by "unfaithful bishops."
The second is these "unfaithful bishops" had the intention to "revolutionize the Church to please the world rather than God."
I would suggest that you check those presuppositions out by reading say, biographies of those involved. Did Karol Wojtyla's early life and writings suggest that he would be an "unfaithful bishop?" Read up on John XXIII and the others.
The Vatican documents themselves are good to read.
Last but not least is the role of the Holy Spirit. To what extent does the Holy Spirit guide a person and/or a group? While I could give you an answer, it's one of those things that you have to discover for yourself.
Good wishes to you as you sort all this out. :)

Mary
If I am not mistaken the opening address of the Second Vatican Council could be found on the vatican webite or any book on the council
http://www.vatican.va/
As far as the holy spirit-if the Pope did not invoke the holy spirit as he announced the council was to be pastoral and not doctrinal as many theologians have stated , as well as Pope Paul VI who repeated likewise that this was a pastoral and not a doctrinal council, then the holy spirit was not invoked

Mary Kay
J.R., is your last paragraph a thinly veiled reference to Vatican II? Just want to clarify.
It reflects an idea about what Vatican II at least in part was that I have not totally commited myself to. The point is that I see no reason why such a situation could not happen.

John, if you want a discussion, it would be very helpful if you could provide a link or cite your source. I have not been able to find the paragraph you quote.
Your post still does not reply to the observation: either you believe that the Holy Spirit guided Vatican II or you don't.

So Bill
With the above statistics-20-50% USA today, KC star quotes up to 80% possibly one of every 2 Bishops, Cardinals, Priest being homosexual-How can one expect tradition to be adhered to?????
It is obviously impossible!

Bill
I will give you USA Today as well as other sources. USA today quotes the percentage as 20-50%-others higher, as well as Christianity today which posts some alarming statistics of priests and AIDS
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/04/25/gay...
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/106/26.0....
Survey of AIDS Infection Among Priests Shocks U.S. Catholics
Kansas City Star says priests dying at much higher rate than American population
By Cheryl Heckler-Feltz, Ecumenical News International, in New York | A survey of Roman Catholic priests by a newspaper, the Kansas City Star, has stunned many American Catholics with its finding that priests are dying of AIDS at a much higher rate than the average US population.
The survey results—implying that a significant number of priests are gay and not celibate—have prompted anger by some Catholics at "wayward clergy," while others are pleading with the church and its members to be more tolerant about the sexual orientation of those who serve the church.
The Star posted the random, confidential survey to 3,000 priests late last year, and 801—or 27 percent—responded. The results showed that:
Seven respondents—about 1 in 114—said they either had HIV or AIDS or might have but had not been tested. This would translate into about 400 priests nation-wide. In the general US population, the average is between 1 in 300 and 1 in 420, according to the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, Georgia. (The National Catholic AIDS Network, established in 1989 to minister to those who suffer from HIV/AIDS, supports the survey's projected estimate.)
Six of 10 respondents said they knew at least one priest who had died of an AIDS-related illness.
One-third of those surveyed knew a priest currently living with AIDS.
Three-quarters of those responding described themselves as heterosexual, 15 percent said they were homosexual and 5 percent bisexual. The remainder declined to categorize themselves. By contrast, in the general population an estimated 5 to 10 percent are homosexual.
Two-thirds of the respondents said that sexuality either was not addressed at all or not addressed enough in their theological training.
Gay Catholics angry, say they've been singled out
By Cathy Lynn Grossman, USA TODAY
By Pier Paolo Cit, AP
Bishop Wilton Gregory says priesthood shouldn't be "dominated" by homosexuals.
Gay Catholics were livid Wednesday when some church leaders meeting in Rome appeared to blame the sex abuse scandal on homosexual priests. Spokeswomen for two groups say they fear a "witch hunt" in which homosexuals will be banned from entering the priesthood and driven from current pulpits. At a press conference after the two-day crisis meeting among America's top clerics, the pope and Vatican officials, two cardinals and the USA's top bishop detailed the "skeletal outline" of a proposed new policy. It would set nationwide procedures for rapidly defrocking serial pedophiles and assessing the danger of new abuse cases with local review boards led by lay people.
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But when asked whether allowing homosexuals in the priesthood might foster a "bumper crop " of abusers, Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington, D.C., said no "active homosexuals" should ever be admitted to seminary.
And the president of the U.S. bishops' conference, Wilton Gregory, said the question would get "comprehensive study." Gregory already was on record calling it a "struggle to make sure that the Catholic priesthood is not dominated by homosexual men."
Those remarks sent Marianne Duddy, executive director of Dignity/USA, a nationwide group of gay Catholics, sputtering with anger at the prospect of a "witch hunt."
"Gay Catholics are absolutely outraged," she says. "There is no link between homosexuality and child molestation. And this negates any pretense by the church that they will treat us with respect. The church hierarchy is refusing to acknowledge their own failings in moving abusive priests from parish to parish, and protecting criminals instead of children. And now the American church has joined the Vatican in cynically shifting the blame to gay priests."
She notes that last October, New York firefighters presented to the pope the helmet of their chaplain, the Rev. Mychal Judge, a gay priest who was killed while ministering to victims at the World Trade Center on Sept. 11. His funeral was at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York, where he headed Dignity/USA's AIDS ministry.
"Can you imagine a church that would toss someone like Mychal Judge out if he were still alive?" Duddy asks.
Catholic doctrine says homosexual orientation is not a sin, but homosexual behavior is "disordered." And some church experts estimate that 20% to 50% of the current 45,000 U.S. priests are homosexual. In February, the pope's spokesman, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, was quoted as saying homosexuals should not be in the priesthood, even if they maintain celibacy.
Former priest and psychotherapist A.W. Richard Sipe says his study of priests from 1960 to 1985, when many of the abuses now coming to light took place, found only about half of all priests maintained celibacy. He estimated 30% of all priests had a homosexual orientation.
Sharon Sherrard, 62, of San Rafael, Calif., a Catholic lesbian, says she's sickened and saddened by church leaders' remarks. "It is so easy to use us as scapegoats. It's so easy."
And it won't work, says Paul Wilkes, who studied 600 parishes for his book, Excellent Catholic Parishes: A Guide to Best Places and Practices.
"If we drove all the gay priests out of the priesthood, our Masses would be on videotape," Wilkes says.
Most Catholics don't care about their priest's sexual orientation, "they just want him to be a decent human being, a good honest pastor," Wilkes said Wednesday. He cites studies showing that "through all this scandal, people's love for their parish has not changed. Their faith in the hierarchy has been decimated, but I don't hear people running away from Catholicism."
The bishops' remarks especially sting gay priests. "It makes me angry. They are trying to take the blame away from those truly responsible and put it on an exclusive class of people. It's wrong," says a gay priest no longer in active ministry, who asked that his name be withheld. He left his diocese after more than a decade but still attends services with the Dignity group. "We have to meet at an Episcopal church because the bishop won't let us use a (Catholic) church."
Contributing: Janet Kornblum

Mary
On October 11, 1962, John XXIII in his opening address stated the following:
For this a Council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.
So what exactly does this mean-was the council invoked to "retranslate" Trent and V1 and that V2 was "pastoral only" as the Vicar of Christ himself said?
If the holy spirit was not invoked, and the purpose of a council is not to reinvent new doctrine but either to clarify or address a pressing issue at the time (what was the pressing issue in 1959???)-then indeed this council was pastoral

Andy-Yes I agree!!
Mr Shea followed me onto Amy Welbornes and the topic was Nostre Aetate some time back and was trying to instigate her against me
He even used names against my wife-he basically deletes any post that does not agree with his liberal philosopy of Catholicism and if you ever notice it is the same group that post on his site, never anyone new cause they eventually get tired of seeing their posts mysteriously disappear

J.R., is your last paragraph a thinly veiled reference to Vatican II? Just want to clarify.
Brother Cadfael answered your question when he said, "And the Church has always understood this guiding by the Holy Spirit to more than simply a prevention against making infallible errors (which might be regarded as the negative aspect of the charism, so to speak)."

Brother Cadfael,
I know "guided" and "inspired" are not equivelent. The Holy Spirit certainly does guard Sacred Tradition as the CCC citations you gave suggest. However, I would hold that this guarding of Sacred Tradition does not automatically extend to any kind of direct guidance of individual Popes or Councils beyond the charism of infalliblity. I would hope that were the bishops sufficiently open to the Holy Spirit they would find their words flowing more from Him than themselves, but belief in whether this was the case in any given situation would be something more akin to belief in private revelation than something we should hold by faith.
If for example a group of not-so-faithful bishops decided to hold a council to revolutionize the Church to please the world rather than God, the Holy Spirit would not allow them to bind the faithful to error and I doubt He would allow them to significantly, directly distort Tradition by their teachings, but that does not mean the Holy Spirit would be "guiding" them, at least not as the word by itself suggests.

J.R.,
You seem to be equating "guided" with "inspired." I would suggest that it is perfectly appropriate to say that the Magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit, and that each of the ecumenical councils has been so guided. See, for example, CCC 81, 86, 113.
And the Church has always understood this guiding by the Holy Spirit to more than simply a prevention against making infallible errors (which might be regarded as the negative aspect of the charism, so to speak).

Mary Kay,
Since when is it neccessary to believe that Vatican II or any council was "guided" by the Holy Spirit?
Of course it is a legitimate and authoritative council, and the Holy Spirit as always prevented it from making any infallible errors, but behond that how can you suggest that any Magisterial act is directly guided by the Holy Spirit? Magisterial documants are authoritative, and in some cases infallible, but not inspired.

John, either you believe that the Holy Spirit guided Vatican II or you don't.
Apparently you don't.

John,
Shea's contempt for traditionalists and overall hatred of being contradicted leads him to even more extreme behavior than you have mentioned, like for example stalking his enemies on other people's websites, and turning up--under the cover of a half-assed half psudonymn-- to apply some cheesy, attempted smackdown (see my interactions with "Mark," above).

If "30% to 80%" is "safe to say", I presume you can provide the evidence to back up those numbers?

SDG and Brother
My arguments were "smashed"? No they were basically ignored as one can not defend these documents as they have defected from the teachings of the church. There are theologians much smarter than you or I who have proven that-or else for that matter why would B16 himself say we need a "reform". But with a Priesthood and one is safe to say Bishops and Cardinals all of whom are anywhere from 30% to 80% homosexual-has one ever heard of a "conservative homosexual"?
Besides that-all one has to do is enter the church today if they can recall what was taught and how we worshipped and ask yourself-is this the same or "Catholic"-forget about being a canon lawyer-and the obvious answer is NO

SDG,
I'm happy to be in your camp, man, especially given the alternatives.
Let John have his cafeteria Catholicism, as if he (or his interpretations) were the standard by which the Magisterium should be judged. But if ever there were a wolf in sheep's clothing...

Maybe we can stay away from personal attacks here on this blog as seems to be the norm with certain persons who cant defend their positions and stay on the topic

The gall of some people is just astonishing. That you, John, of all people should talk about people "defending their positions and staying on the topic."

You claimed that the salvation of non-Catholics was a Vatican II innovation. I showed you that it isn't. Have you defended your position and stayed on the topic?

You claimed that Vatican II taught that those who reject Christ "should be revered and saved." Both Brother Cadfael and myself challenged you to defend this characterization of Vatican II. Have you defended your position and stayed on topic?

You claimed that Cardinal Ratzinger had said that the biggest threat to the church was the Traditionalists. Matt McDonald challenged you to produce a reference. Have you defended your position?

You pasted a lot of pre-V2 and V2 texts that you said were contradictory, when in fact anyone who can read and reason can see that they aren't. I called you on it. Have you defended your position?

You replied to Tim J with the non-sequitur claim that "The magesterium interprets the Bible and we dont live and practice Sola Scriptura." Tim challenged you to explain the relevance of this crushing observation for his comments. Have you defended your position?

Why did I bother wasting my time to document all that? It's time to move on.
Feel free to have the last word, though, John. That's another reason for Chesterton's point about the futility of arguing with a crackpot. Not only is he not hampered by a sense of humour or by charity, he lacks the sense of proportion to know when all hopes of constructive conversation are dead and buried. By that standard I'm half cracked myself, I guess, to still be there at this point.

SDG and the Good Brother in the same "camp"
Boy that is a surprise
Maybe we can stay away from personal attacks here on this blog as seems to be the norm with certain persons who cant defend their positions and stay on the topic
All I said was Mark Shea was a wolf in sheeps clothing who pretends to be a neo con but at the same time ADMITTED on his blog he HATED the FSSP and traditionals.

Shea takes it for granted that the individual whom Chesterton calls the "madman" is identical to today's typical Sedevecantist.

The applicability of the Chesterton quote to the sedevacantist/rad-trad mentality is blindingly obvious to those with eyes to see, and again this very thread illustrates the point.
Chesterton's prescription is dead on: Step outside of your mental rat run. Breathe the fresh air. Feel the sun.
Learn to take your neighbor more seriously -- and yourself not so much. Charity and a sense of humor will take you further toward sanity than wire-drawn arguments.

As for the application of the Chesterton quote, it's really a classic study in ad hominem and question-begging. Shea takes it for granted that the individual whom Chesterton calls the "madman" is identical to today's typical Sedevecantist. He doesn't explain how this is the case. He just lays it out there as if it were self-evident.
And if you try to argue with Shea about it, he'll display his intellectual prowess by banning you from his site and making ad hominem attacks against you. What a mind!

Bishop Sheen thought that Chesterton "never used a wasted word".

I myself think Chesterton's a bit overrated. He often seems infatuated with his own cleverness. The whole "paradox" motif just gets old after a while.

Attempts to change the subject from Chesterton's observations to Chesterton himself have no bearing on the applicability of his comments regarding the intellectual smallness and sterility of crackpot theorists.
Having said that, while one could certainly argue that Chesterton, like many great rhetoricians, was a blowhard, to suggest that he was a dimwit would be tantamount to declaring intellectual bankruptcy.

Anony: Yep, you guessed it.

curious that John seemed to take that personally...

I could have only guessed that SDG was a regular on Mark Sheas blog.

Speaking of "connecting of one thing with another in a map more elaborate than a maze…" :-D Thanks for illustrating my point, John.

Andy,
I like our current pope a lot, but wonder if even he (brilliant and incisive as he is) is equal to the task of excising the malignant tumor that is "the spirit of Vatican II.
Of course he is not up to the task.
For that we need the Holy Spirit, and for this we need to pray. In fact the Holy Father has asked us to pray for him that he will have the strength to fight off the wolves.
Matt

John,
Talk about the perpetual wolf in sheeps clothing...
Looked in a mirror lately?

I could have only guessed that SDG was a regular on Mark Sheas blog. Talk about the perpetual wolf in sheeps clothing, pretending to be a neo con but anything but

FWIW, the subject of sedevacatism recently came up at Mark Shea's blog, leading Mark to cite a beautiful, luminous passage of Chesterton that absolutely epitomizes the brittle, implacable belligerence of sedevacantism and related forms of radical Traditionalism.
Brief excerpts (more at Mark's blog):
Every one who has had the misfortune to talk with people in the heart or on the edge of mental disorder, knows that their most sinister quality is a horrible clarity of detail; a connecting of one thing with another in a map more elaborate than a maze. If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by charity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason…
…we may say that the strongest and most unmistakable mark of madness is this combination between a logical completeness and a spiritual contraction. The lunatic's theory explains a large number of things, but it does not explain them in a large way. I mean that if you or I were dealing with a mind that was growing morbid, we should be chiefly concerned not so much to give it arguments as to give it air, to convince it that there was something cleaner and cooler outside the suffocation of a single argument.

Attentive readers will have no difficulty discerning some (not all) of these very symptoms in a number of posts in this very thread.

Andy,
Bro, no, I haven't read the Vatican 2 documents in their entirety, although from what I have read or read about, John's summary seems pretty accurate.
If you think John's summary seems accurate, it is pretty clear that you have done more reading "about" them than you have done actually reading them.

"Tim-The magesterium interprets the Bible and we dont live and practice Sola Scriptura"
'kay.
Did I imply anywhere that this was the case?

Tim-The magesterium interprets the Bible and we dont live and practice Sola Scriptura
Vatican II changed the entire landscape of the church, not since Trent which SOLIDIFIED and reaffirmed the faith instead of weakening it as V2 has, had a council had so much effect on the faithful
It was a pastoral council as John XXIII clearly stated in his opening address, but the winds of change after WWII , Modernism, Communism, not to mention Masonic influences infiltrated the church thought. One should read "The Rhine Flows into the Tiber" a great account of how the left wing of the church bonded together to get what they wanted, a Protestanized church

Also, if we stand in judgement of the VII documents because we find them vague and open to misinterpretation, then we would have to admit that the Bible has been treated in the same way for as long as there has BEEN a Bible.
Scripture, too, is misinterpreted and twisted, sometimes to say the exact opposite of what it actually means, but the fault doesn't lie in the scriptures.
I certainly am not putting the VII documents on a par with scripture, and I do see the weaknesses there that can be exploited, but the root of the problem IS NOT with the documents.
The problems start when Church documents (as well as the scriptures) are approached in bad faith, by people with an agenda who's minds are made up, and who are only looking for proof texts and loopholes. They see the text as something to exploit in support of their arguments.
In this they break with the magisterium of the Church. The magisterial authority of the Church ALONE is where we must turn to find the authentic interpretation of these documents, as well as the scriptures. Not surprisingly, these folks reject that authority.
Submission to the authority of the Church - the Pope and the bishops - is key.

See, the whole "Spirit of Vatican II" thing is a lie.
The people who always claimed to do things in the "Spirit of VII" continually reject the actual teaching of Vatican II. I have experienced this first hand.
This mythical "Spirit of Vatican II" was never anything but the Spirit of the Age dressed up in religious language.
It was the old bait-and-switch.
All the garbage that has taken place in the name of VII had nothing to do with the Faith and everything to do with the World. It did not proceed from the council.
We should not allow ourselves to be fooled by this abuse of language. These people can claim no support from Vatican II, and we MUST NOT allow their crooked agenda to define the work of that council.
The rot was already there, and VII was merely used as convenient cover.
At the same time, we shouldn't buy the idea that liturgical abuse was unknown in the pre-VII church. The Latin mass lent itself to certain kinds of abuses, just as the Novus Ordo mass does.
Of course, I think abuse has been much more widespread since VII, but I think this would have taken place to a great degree anyway. VII didn't CAUSE the abuses, our sick Western culture did.

Matt,
Thanks-- I'll check it out. I like our current pope a lot, but wonder if even he (brilliant and incisive as he is) is equal to the task of excising the malignant tumor that is "the spirit of Vatican II.:
Bro, no, I haven't read the Vatican 2 documents in their entirety, although from what I have read or read about, John's summary seems pretty accurate.

What I meant to indict was the informal theology that has been the fruits of the so-called "spirit of the Second Vatican Council." The de-emphasis of the sacred, and the elevation of the vulgar and the tacky. The loss of a sense of sin, the loss of a sense of God's otherness, and the overall decline in belief and practice.

Andy,
I agree 100%, I think most every Catholic who's ever heard a lie preceded by the words "in the spirit of Vatican II". This "spirit" is what has chased many otherwise solid Catholics to schismatic sects and driven many others half insane.
JPII and B16 have been trying to correct this problem, as is evident in their talks and writings. Benedict XVI has especially been critical of this "spirit", read his Dec 22, 2005 address to the curia. It's bang on, and even proposes an orthodox understanding of "religious liberty".
God Bless,
Matt

"It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.
This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance in due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.
Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion."
...
Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.
Joseph Card. RATZINGER
Prefect
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cf...

Andy
I have read much of the 16 documents and to basically summarize one paragraph will say something that is "traditional" and in line with church teachings and you say to yourself, hey, that sounds Catholic. Then the next paragraph says something that is either contrary or vague so that you scratch your head and say I cant believe that the church would want me to hold Moslems "In High Esteem" when I know they reject Christ? And this goes on for most of the documents, so that it falls under the "renewal" that the council fathers like John XXIII wanted and at the same time can appear to be in line with past teachings
And if you count how many times the documents say the words "liberty" and "respect" and "dignity" you feel you are reading a manuscript from the time of the American and French Revolutions who we all know were founded by Masons. Connect the dots?

Theology of the Body? I have read at least part of that.

Yes, you've demonstrated in this thread how well you read, John.

Andy,
Just out of curiosity, how many of the Vatican II documents have you read? In their entirety, not just bits and pieces, here and there?

Well, that's how I feel about Vatican II, Mark Whomever. I'm open to dialogue on the matter, however. If I'm wrong, show me where I'm wrong.
And yes, to answer your question, your tone and attitude are what I thought I recognized.

Some would accuse traditional Catholics - those that insist on retaining the fullness of the Catholic faith intact and who therefore refuse the new religion of the post-Conciliar Church, of being in "schism." The accusation is a lie. In reality, the schismatic is one who removes himself from the truth, and not one who insists upon it. And if it is necessary to separate oneself from something in order to save the truth, long live Schism! But in reality, it is not the traditional Catholic who is in Schism, but those who are responsible for changing the Catholic faith. But let is be both clear and honest. The new Church is not schismatic. It is heretical. In similar manner traditional Catholics are accused of being Protestants because they disobey the pope. Such accusations are false. Traditional Catholics do not "pick and choose" what they wish to believe; they are adhering with all their hearts to what the Church has always taught and always done. Nor are they disobeying the pope. They believe that the pope, being Christ's vicar on earth and "one hierarchical person" with our Lord, is to be obeyed. They know that when Peter speaks he is infallible because it is Christ who speaks through him. They are the out and out papists and are doing nothing less than refusing to disobey Peter. In such a situation they are obliged to disobey those who falsely speak in Peter's name. To obey modernist and heretical "popes" is to declare that they are "one hierarchical person" with our Lord and hence that Christ teaches falsely - quod absit!

Theology of the Body? I have read at least part of that. Seems like a porno title for a pope to be getting involved in the "Theology of the Body". If he wants a woman to abstain from birth control and use the "rhythm method"-then why not say so! Theology of the Body is like the crowning achievement of a pontificate that lasted 26 years. Sad

Andy said: "If Vat II wasn't bad in itself, then somebody please tell me why every conceivable interpretation of Vatican II seems to suck? Sucky liturgy, sucky theology, sucky hippy-dippy touchy-feeliness, suck, suck suck!!"
My tone and attitude Andy?

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