SSA & Seminary

by Jimmy Akin on September 29, 2006

in Canon Law

A reader writes:

I have been discerning a vocation to the priesthood. Though I’m in college, my home-diocesan vocations director has indicated that the diocese would accept me into the seminary as a candidate for priesthood if I were to apply now (or, presumably, when I’ve graduated). He knows that I experience same-sex attractions; that for about three years I have had a deep and varyingly consuming obsession with a particular male; that my homosexuality has been related to (if not causal of or resulting from, or both) a weak masculine identity and other affective problems; that I am speaking regularly to a NARTH psychiatrist to overcome these problems; etc. But the vocations director has explicitly assured me that the same-sex attraction does not present an impediment to my entering the seminary with a view to being ordained (all else going well).

I understand that even my life-long, exclusive attraction to the priesthood is neither sufficient nor necessary to demonstrate that I do have a vocation. I know that I have no right to be ordained, that the Church must discern with me and make the ultimate decision in the person of the bishop and his assistants, etc. But I am concerned here that the vocations director would be allowing me to do something which the Church universal, traditionally and also most recently in the Instruction issued last year by the Congregation for Catholic Education, has prohibited. The Instruction prohibits the ordination or admission to the seminary of those who (1) practice homosexuality, (2) present deep-seated (or, in what I consider a closer translation of the Italian, deeply rooted) homosexual tendencies, or (3) support the ‘gay’ culture.

Never having been in a sexual relationship with anyone, I don’t meet the first condition. Nor do I meet the third. My question, then, is how precisely to interpret the second condition, and how to differentiate it from the "transitory" tendencies which the Instruction indicates might not disqualify a man, provided he has been chaste for three years before ordination to the diaconate. Because I personally believe that same-sex attraction is in most cases the result of developmental problems, I consider most if not all homosexual tendencies to be in principle transitory (that is, not insuperable). And I’m still quite young; that leaves time for change, natural or induced. But I am also a realist and recognize that my tendencies, which do reveal some degree of affective immaturity and sometimes manifest themselves in difficulties in dealing with men and women (or in asserting myself healthily, or in leading, etc.), may not in fact ever go away because of contingent factors. They are rooted in childhood and early adolescent difficulties that are not easily overcome.

Even if my diocese grants official approval, if the Church has expressed a will that people in my condition not be ordained, I take this alone as sufficient to show that God has not called me. I do not want to take advantage of my diocese’s laxity in this regard if it is indeed illicit laxity, and I consider it my responsibility to discern whether I’m fit to present myself to the diocese. But do I in fact meet the second condition of the Instruction? Or if you do not have sufficient information to determine this in my case, can you explain precisely what you take the second condition to mean? I have read a wide variety of opinions, some of which would exclude me and others not.

I have to say that I have nothing but admiration for the clear-eyed, level-headed way in which the reader is approaching this situation. He is displaying a great deal of personal integrity, and I think he deserves the applause of everyone for the way in which he is conducting himself in this.

In addressing the question, I would suggest several points:

1) Individuals can try to shoulder too much of the burden of discernment. The question of whether the reader’s degree of same-sex attraction would be sufficient to prevent his admission to seminary is not exclusively his own to discern. In principle what the Church would want him to do is present the facts to the relevant officials and then they would have the primary burden of determining whether the degree of SSA is sufficient to meet the criteria in the document that the Holy See issued. In other words, in the ideal, he should be open and honest and submit to their judgment.

2) That being said, it is clear that there are individuals who have tried to minimize the import of the document and to interpret its second clause in manifestly inaccurate ways that would have the effect of gutting its meaning. Thus seminarians in some areas are not in the ideal situation and have some duty to use their own judment in determining whether or not their SSA meets the criteria described in the document.

3) The document itself also does not elaborate its criteria in great detail. As a result, there is some ambiguity in interpreting its meaning. Just what degree of SSA is needed for it to be "deep-seated" (or "deeply-rooted")? This is not altogether clear, and the resulting ambiguity is presumably something that the Holy See intends, so that the issue can be more thoroughly worked out in practice. Perhaps in the future the Holy See will publish more detailed guidance on the subject, but in the meantime there is at least some liberty of interpretation that local officials have in applying the document. It isn’t as if the Holy See said that any SSA–even light and momentary–bars one from the priesthood. The document speaks (see below) of some candidates for the priesthood having overcome a transitory problem with homosexual tendencies, but if one has ever had these, it is likely that they will continue to manifest at least occasionally and in a minor way later in life. How strong that manifestation would have to be to bar a candidate from ordination is something that the Holy See has not yet told us and thus the determination falls to local officials.

4) It therefore seems to me that the reader should seek to make the best determination he can based both on the judgment of local officials and his own understanding. He should not submit uncritically to the judgment of officials if they are unambiguously ignoring the meaning of the document, but neither should he presume to judge what the document requires exclusively according to his own judgment, for the Church has not charged him with that task. He should seek to make the best determination he can through an appraisal of the situation that seeks to incorporate both deference to local officials with his own judgment serving as a back-up if they are manifestly misinterpreting the document.

5) To apply the document to the reader’s own situation, it would be useful to review what it actually says:

In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture".

Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women. One must in no way overlook the negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.

Different, however, would be the case in which one were dealing with homosexual tendencies that were only the expression of a transitory problem – for example, that of an adolescence not yet superseded. Nevertheless, such tendencies must be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate.

The contrast that the document presents between "deep-seated tendencies" and "tendencies that were only the expression of a transitory problem" that is capable of being "clearly overcome" would seem to refer to a contrast between tendencies that are strong and enduring and those that, while they may be strong for a time, are eventually mitigated and thus overcome.

It would be a mistake to read the tendencies as having to be so strong that they actually drive the person to homosexual behavior. That is clearly not required (a) because the word "tendencies" is being used and that word does not imply outward action based on the tendencies, (b) because the commission of homosexual acts is listed as a separate criterion (albeit an ongoing commission), and (c) because the Holy See did not say "tendencies so strong that they lead the individual to commit homosexual acts."

It also would be a mistake to read the the document as saying that once the tendencies have been overcome that the individual never experiences SSA again in his life. Any time one has had a particular sexual temptation for any period of time, human nature is such that this temptation is likely to recur at some point, even if it is just a mild and momentary desire.

Putting these pieces together, it seems to me that the Holy See would find acceptable a candidate who had a period of strong homosexual desires, whether or not they led him to have homosexual sex, who then is able to overcome these to the point that, even if they do not go away entirely, they markedly diminish and remain at their diminished level for a period of years.

In this regard, the document mentions them needing to be overcome for a period of at least three years prior to ordination to the diaconate. That clause seems to be included primarily to cover those who are already in seminary, but it (or a significiant portion of it, like two years) might serve as a useful guide in determining whether one is ready for admission to seminary.

6) As to what the overcoming of the temptations might involve, I can only conjecture here, because the Holy See has not given us criteria on this point, but I would conecture that the temptations have not yet been overcome if one or more of the following conditions obtain:

* An individual finds himself spending a significant amount of time fantasizing about homosexual acts.
* An individual finds himself spending a significant amount of time having romantic but non-sexual fantasies about members of the same sex.
* An individual regularly commits autoerotic acts that have homosexual fantasy content.

In suggesting these criteria, I am not talking about temporary slips but about ongoing, regular patterns of behavior.

7) In applying all of this directly to the case of the reader, it strikes me that at least at one time the reader has had a strong tendency (I’d not the apparently long-standing crush on another individual), but it is not clear to me whether this level of temptation still applies. It may well have moderated or begun to moderate.

There also is the fact that he is seeing a NARTH counsellor and the fact that he is still very young (I have removed his actual age in keeping with my policy of omitting personally identifying information from posts). All of these are positive signs, and I would encourage him to bide his time and see what happens with his SSA. It may mitigate to the point and remain mitigated long enough that the document would not prevent him from persuing a vocation to the priesthood.

If I may also offer one bit of advice from personal experience: When I was in college I once had an enormous crush on a young woman and the crush finally abated when I realized what a jerk she actually was. I’m not suggesting that the reader foster ill-will toward the individual to whom he is attracted, but trying to form a clear-eyed appraisal of the individual, including his faults, may serve to dispel some of the romantic aura that surrounds him.

As always, I would encourage my readers to keep the gentleman who wrote in prayer, as well as all who are in similar conditions. May they handle matters as oustandingly as this gentleman is.

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Nice to see you around the combox again, J.R..
Seems like maybe you were on hiatus for a while, or something.

I would not think about becoming a priest, for any reason, whether it be sexual or any other type of issue, without first reading the biographies(or better yet, the autobiographies), of 10 famous Catholic Saints, first.
The saints are models for all of us, but especially those who are seeking to be leaders in the Church. And we really need these role models, for they provide wisdom and solutions for a great variety of circumstances that we might one day find ourselves in, no matter what our vocation is.
Where to start...Which Saints should be read first?
I think the Conessions of St. Augustine should be somewhere near first. It reveals his deep desire and search for truth in His life. Also, he wasn't afraid of discussing his great search for the truth, nor was he ashamed to confess all of his weaknesses, errors and sins, and even doing so, openly and publicly. His love for God, and truth in life, was beyond all other worldly considerations and concerns.
However, I first read the Life of St. Francis, which is what brought me 'back' to the Catholic Faith. So, for me personally, this also should be on top of a 'priority' spiritual reading list.
St. Philip Neri is a good one because he is so joyful, and is a great role model for Christian freedom of expression, as compared to a 'Jansenist' type of 'ridgid' Catholic spirituality, which teaches us to be somewhat like 'spiritual paraplegics' and devoid of spontaneoity and a 'welcoming', loving nature.
The "Lives of the Desert Fathers" provides countless examples of how to avoid vanity in this life, and to reach a more profound level of true spirituality. Countless little sayings and examples can provide some wisdom for handling even the most difficult circumstances that we might face in our relationships with others.
The 'Lives of the Early Christian Martyrs' helps us to not fear death, but rather, to follow the Lord with a 'burning' love and zeal, and to be very steadfast in our faith to the very end.
St. Jean Brebeuf, a more modern martyr and missionary to the Huron and Iriquois Indians, for example, was preaching to a large group of Indians waiting in line to be tortured to death by their tribal enemies. But since he himself was beinig tortured, with his tongue already having been cut out, and almost all parts of his body scorched with red hot axe blades..encouraged them with his throat only...grunting to them not to fear such tortures but to eagarly accept the kingdom of Christ ...and that they would soon be in Heaven!!
What kind of example can this teach us?? It is even like the preaching of Jesus to the good theif on the cross. "I tell you, soon you will be with me in Paradise!" Now, if hope can be given to wild indians, and murderous criminals...can't mercy and hope be given to us also?? This is the type of thing we learn by reading the lives of the Saints!
St. Alphonsis Liguori teaches us, by his writing style, how much zeal and love of God is possible in this life. Every page of his writings and books are FILLED with divine love and honor for both Jesus and Mary!
Solitary preachers and missionaries, like St. Louis de Montfort and St. Anthony Claret, teach us not to wait for the companionship of others to begin our work for the Lord. And Jesus didn't wait either, when he was 12 years old he gave us the example to serve 'Our Father' first..even if it means doing it without the aid or inspiration of others.
Sometimes we need to accept the fact that we might indeed be lonely in our apostolic endeavors. Nevertheless, we should do what God wants us to do, whether others follow, and accompany us ..or not! These 2 saints are perfect examples of this.
St. John Bosco is great for teaching us to be flexible with others in this world, and to know how to be holy in every circumstance. He is a real 'modern' saint, who lived during the industrial revolution. He didn't care to found an order of monks, but said he wanted his religious habit to be "OVERALLS"! Yes ...very suitable to his 'Industrial Revolution' times! He also teaches us, with examples like this, that truly spiritual men and saints can have a 'sense of humor', and be 'witty'. However, he used his 'wit' to bring souls, especially rough, homeless youth, to the love and knowledge of the Lord..and help make them into real saints!
St. Francis of Assisi, also, was solitary at first, and even his father scorned and rejected him! His father renounced him before the bishop and his fellow neigbors in Assisi, and demanded he return everything that had been given to him by his family. Obviously being punctured in sorrowness of heart for such a rejection...by a father that should have really loved him...he stripped even his very clothes infront of the whole town, and gave them back to his father, being left completely destitue and naked before all! In this he chose to follow Jesus first, even if it meant complete rejection from everybody who formerly loved him, total shame and humility before all, and total poverty, being left with not even a penny ...nor even a pocket to put it in!
Only because of the Bishop's help was he able to have clothes on that day, and he accepted some poor rags in great thanks to God!
Later, he converted and accepted 3 robbers and murderer's into both his friendship and Order. He didn't turn imperfect persons away, even as so many Orders and religious communiities frequently do today. Heck, his very Order of Friars Minor even turned me away when I was young and zealous, and dreaming to follow the life and example of St. Francis-- do to his influence in converting me back to the Catholic Faith. But then again, I guess being totally devoted to St. Francis wasn't a sufficient reason to be admitted to his Order. After reading about the murderers, that he lovingly accepted...I thought that I must be at least as good, or worthy, as they were..but I must have been mistaken.
However...all of these robbers became famous for their true conversion..and even extreme devotion and piety! This shows us all that everyone can be saved and become holy! Also, not to judge ANYONE.. as unworthy of the Lord's friendship!
So, first, read some lives of the Saints, for guidence and inspiration. They can give great examples on how to deal with lifes countless difficulties and burdens. They can teach, as they did myself, how to be resigned and even happy when family, friends, and even religious groups reject your friendship, companionship and love.
So, as the Lord says, "..seek first the kingdom of God and everything else will come after"! So too, the wisdom from the lives and examples of the Saints will be found to help in all types of difficulties, whether they be in a priestly vocation, or in any other vocation ...in our quest to love and serve the Lord.
All for the praise and love of Christ! Amen.

This is one of the attitudes I often see in people (I was once one) who attempt to adhere to Church or Biblical moral teachings but still be as gay-friendly as possible. The idea that all sex outside of marriage is wrong is emphasized so that homosexuals are not singled out. Ultimately that is not right because sodomy is worse than fornication.

Right, bill, but I do see Mr. Tao's point. There is one setting - and only one - wherein sex is natural, normal, legitimate and realizes its full potential - and that is within a lifelong marriage with the intent to have kids.
Now, each individual instance of the "act of marriage" does not have to have the intention of procreation in order to be legitimate, but this is the overall context of the couple's conjugal life.
Any sex act that falls outside this boundary is illegitimate - contraceptive sex (even within marriage), masturbation, unmarried sex (fornication or adultery), homosexual sex, sex with beasties... it's all centered only on individual, momentary sexual pleasure and becomes sinful and destructive outside the context (procreative marriage) that God created for it.
This is NOT AT ALL to say that infertile couples are outside God's will when they have relations! The thing is that the marriage include the sincere desire for and openness to children.
However, Mr. Tao, the Bible gives very clear indication that some of these illegitimate sex acts are worse than others. Homosexual acts and beastiality are indicated to be especially offensive in God's eyes... abominations.
These things - by their very nature - reflect not just a momentary weakness of will, or careless, self-centered disregard for God's natural law, but a clear, conscious and active rejection of these things.
We might have some understanding for an ignorant pagan who does not understand why he should not have 5 wives, or should not just take a new lover whenever the mood strikes. But there seems to be built in to homosexuality, pedophilia and beastiality (among other things) a kind of determined rebellion against the natural order. A seeming delight in the wickedness of it. A wanton despoilment.
So, in that sense, I don't think we could roll all illegitimate sex acts together and erase all distinctions.

"Sex is for procreation, and all other sex, whether it be homo or hetero, is *recreational*."
The Church disagrees, and teaches that sexual intercourse between husband and wife is unitive as well as life-giving, as is the love between Christ and His Church.

There's a false dichotomy of homosexual/heterosexual being offered here. I also saw a man say that he got married after going to a seminary for two years (heterosexual, sexor, somehow in a high place in a Christian institution). Sex is for procreation, and all other sex, whether it be homo or hetero, is *recreational*. It is wrong to look at the flesh of anyone and find titilation in it, regardless of age or gender. Perhaps it is just in our oversexed society that we've forgotten the necessity of celibacy. The key for this young man isn't changing into a hetero or "normal" person, but sublimate his sex desires into something more constructive. We have to have better things to do than to seek recreation with others' flesh. We have to have a higher cause than that. Though most people may chose to live as animals any of us can choose to realize our spiritual destiny. Just my two cents, thanks.

I,
you took my words out of context. here's what I said:
If Sexuality is only behavior, and is not an act of the will, Then no one who suffers from the disorder and is tempted to lust after persons of his own sex can resist acting upon his impulses.
Notice I didn't say sexuality was not behavioral, but that behavior is controlled by the will.
Form your posts, one gets the idea that you seem to think that a person who has disordered sexual desires and indulges them without actually having sexual relations is not committing a sin. But if sexual sin can't be committed in the mind, then why did Jesus say it is sinful to lust after a woman? Surely you wouldn't say that homosexuals who kiss, etc. are motivated by some non-sexual desire, will you?

And you call yourself Innocencio?
No, my parents named me Inocencio after my father and grandfather. Just as I named my son Inocencio.
But all you can think about is sex, sex, sex.
A rather silly comment coming from someone who defends homosexual behavior.
You remain in my prayers.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

I,
You say we should act according to God's will for us. But just what the heck do you mean when you reply, "I cannot substantiate any knowledge to be my own" when someone suggests (and rightly so, I believe) that you come across as knowing what God's will is, not only for you, but also for others ("temptation comes and goes, and when you are led by the Spirit, you go where the Spirit takes you, and that may be, as with Jesus, into the desert to be tempted"). For us Joe-in-the-pews Catholic type, could you please explain this pseudo-mystic stuff so that we no longer persist in our misunderstanding of you? All of us on this board seem to be doing so...

The reality is that you have made God into an image you like... Homosexuals acting as you describe go against their very nature as Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium make very clear.
No, Innocencio, the reality is you've twisted what was written into an image you don't like. If you read the actual words that were written, there's no mention of anything sexual going on, nothing against anything holy whatsoever. For all you know, they're 87-year old persons living in a nursing home, bedridden in a double occupancy room with heart monitors blinking. But all you can think about is sex, sex, sex. And you call yourself Innocencio?

Furthermore, it's not only a possibility that homosexuals can love one another, cohabitate, kiss, hold hands, etc. and not sin or even be tempted -- it's a reality.
The reality is that you have made God into an image you like.
We are made in the image and likeness of God; male and female. The two become one flesh as Christ and the Church.
Homosexuals acting as you describe go against their very nature as Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium make very clear.
You may now write a long flowery post about how misunderstood you perceive youself to be.
You are in my prayers.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

I,
"'This makes no mention of genital sex, it says "relations". Kissing, hand holding, sleeping with, or otherwise acting out homosexual inclinations, *genitally or not*, are objectively disordered acts, because they flow from objectively disordered passions.'
David B, your interpretation is contrary to Persona Humana, "
That is not my 'interpretation.' I never posted that.

You've proposed on this site the possibility of homosexuals not removing themselves from the near occasion of sin even though it's not a life or limb matter and there's no need for them to be in this near occasion of sin
No, I have not, but who are you to say there's no need for someone to be wherever they are? You are not the judge of what is needed or necessary.
You say it's possible to cohabitate, kiss, hold hands, etc., and resist temptation to rub genitals without fail and hide behind grace as your reasoning/excuse for defying Church instruction in these matters.
You did well for the first few words, and then you fell into the pit of your own perceptions. I've not been speaking about "hiding" behind grace, and there is also no Church instruction that blindly prohibits cohabitation, kissing, holding hands, etc. Furthermore, it's not only a possibility that homosexuals can love one another, cohabitate, kiss, hold hands, etc. and not sin or even be tempted -- it's a reality.
You advocate deliberately putting one's self into a playing-with-fire situation when there is no life or limb or God-directed imperative to do so.
No, I do not. You have misspoken.
You do not subject yourself to unnecessary temptation in order to justify "opportunities for growth" and then claim that God put you in this position, when God's very mouthpiece says otherwise.
I have not said anyone should, nor have I spoken the words you've put in quotes, nor have I made whatever claims you are referring to. And again, you are not the judge of what is necessary.
not make compromises with the weakness as you suggest.
But I don't suggest that. You have again misspoken.
"Mere external constraint" (see above) is what you are suggesting in your solution, and that goes against Church teaching.
That is not what I'm saying, but what you are saying.
You're saying, one can just make a compromise, and live with the person they're infatuated with, kiss, hug, hold hands, and just exercise mere external constraint by not having genital contact.
You want to pretend to be the authority on what I'm saying? I'm not advocating any arbitrary willy nilly compromise or exercise of mere external constraint or speaking of foolish sexual infatuation. You've colored all the statements with your own agenda. Go back and think purely.
One of the main problems with this line of thought, Pipe, is that you seem to be claiming a perfect knowledge of God's Will.
I cannot substantiate any knowledge to be my own.
The other problem is that you seem to be claiming that it is God's Will that a person tread so close to the "line" that separates sin from non-sin. Does God truly wish for any given individual to be making out with another individual who is not his spouse, so long as they don't cross into genital zones?
I understand your concern. God can certainly push the envelope as far as He wishes, and if one is superbly faithful to God, one would abide in His wishes. However, I would not expect such to be the normal case. Prior questions have related to holding hands, hugging, a kiss, maybe standing in a strip club, but not involving intense interpersonal physical activity of a deeply intimate nature.
the temptations brought on by the prostitute his father and brothers put in his room with him.
I've not been advocating anyone take it upon themselves to taunt temptation.
As you have failed to answer any of my direct questions, I will assume it is because you have no answer to give
Tim, assume what you will, but your questions have been properly answered.
imagine that the same man comes in to interview for a position as a day-care worker, a counselor at a Boy Scout camp, or for the seminary. Once again - it ain't happening on MY watch! These would be areas in which I would be totally justified in discriminating.
Well, Tim, there are many experts who will tell you that it's not valid to believe that being homosexual makes one any more likely to molest children than being heterosexual. And indeed, in many instances, you may be precluded by law from discriminating on that basis.

Pipe -
As you have failed to answer any of my direct questions, I will assume it is because you have no answer to give (except for the continued "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" nonsense. I claim victory in the name of the King of all Londinium!
Look, I have no special gripe with homosexuals. As vices go, it's very run-of-the-mill... the banality of evil, and all that. We're all sinners.
But I do have a problem with this bizarre idea that this particular vice should now be wedged into the "virtue" column. What will we be asked to esteem as virtuous next? Bestiality? Sex with children? Don't kid yourself, NAMBLA is hot on the heels of this movement to re-define marriage. They would like very much to see childhhod re-defined along with it. They just LOVE children so much, you see.
I am against any *unjust* discrimination against anyone, as the Church teaches. If the writers of the CCC had wanted to be consistent, they might have indicated that unjust discrimination against *anyone* struggling with sin is unfounded and sinful in itself. I think they mentioned it specially in the section you cited mainly to innoculate the text from empty accusations of mere gay-bashing.
But there is such a thing as just discrimination.
F'rinstance - Say I am responsible for running an office, where I hire phone sales people. A guy comes in for an interview, and is very up front about admitting that he has had a drinking problem in the past, got several DUIs, went through rehab, and has been clean and sober for several years. I check his work recoed and find that he has indeed been a responsible and productive employee, and hire him. If he does begin to abuse alcohol again, it will likely only result in him missing work, showing up hungover, or whatever.
Now, if I were superintendent of schools, and were looking for bus drivers to take my little charges to and fro, hither and yon, and this same man applied for the position, I would not touch him with a ten-foot cattle prod. It would be highly irresponsible to place such a man in that position, and so discrimination against him in this case is perfectly justified. Even more so if he actally showed up for the interview half-plastered.
Now (stay with me, here), let's say we're back in the little phone sales office and a guy comes in for an interview. He is well-mannered and intelligent, as well as having a great work record. He is obviously homosexual, casually mentions his partner, Bruce, and tells me that he needs the extra income because his career as a female impersonator in local nightclubs is not as successful as he had hoped. I hire him for his phone sales skills. If he allows his vice to interfere with his work (say, strikes up an office love affair) then the consequences are manageable (incidentally, this would be true for heterosexuals, as well).
Now, imagine that the same man comes in to interview for a position as a day-care worker, a counselor at a Boy Scout camp, or for the seminary. Once again - it ain't happening on MY watch! These would be areas in which I would be totally justified in discriminating.
In both the case of the alcoholic who would like to drive a bus, and the gay man who would like to work at a Boy Scout camp, I have to consider what the consequences would be if their vice should spill over into their work. The alcoholic could wreck the bus and literally cost lives. The gay man might use his position to molest boys - boys I have been placed in charge of. In both cases I have to ask myself, would the parents of these kids want me to hire this man?
Pipe, you are trying to make the case that ANY discrimination involving homosexuals is unjustified, which is clearly not the case. You also seem to class vocal disagreement with your views as being another form of discrimination.
Gay marriage is the Equal Rights Amendment of our day. It ain't gonna happen. Bans against gay marriage are being upheld in the courts... even in California! Its proponents will fade away at some point. They may find a few states where they can pretend to be married, and the government will play along, but when they travel they will find that most people do not care to encourage their delusion.

"The example of the near accident applies to anyone and everyone without exception. Its application to near occasions of sin applies to anyone/everyone who is and remains obedient to God while tempted."
Oh, see, I was confused, as you said your statement about never being near an occasion of sin was only about you.
One of the main problems with this line of thought, Pipe, is that you seem to be claiming a perfect knowledge of God's Will. The other problem is that you seem to be claiming that it is God's Will that a person tread so close to the "line" that separates sin from non-sin. Does God truly wish for any given individual to be making out with another individual who is not his spouse, so long as they don't cross into genital zones?
Re: the naked lady ... I'd like to make a friendly suggestion to you: read GK Chesterton's account of St. Thomas Aquinas's fight with the temptations brought on by the prostitute his father and brothers put in his room with him. Seems a lot closer to the methods of battling temptation put forth by Karen et al (not to mention the Catechism itself) than your methods.

You did say, "In His grace, I am never near an occasion of sin, no matter how close it may seem to be. In His grace, walking with Him, I fear not."
You've proposed on this site the possibility of homosexuals not removing themselves from the near occasion of sin even though it's not a life or limb matter and there's no need for them to be in this near occasion of sin. You say it's possible to cohabitate, kiss, hold hands, etc., and resist temptation to rub genitals without fail and hide behind grace as your reasoning/excuse for defying Church instruction in these matters.
Ascetic practices are not just a matter of fleeing to God; they are proactive practices in the virtues.
While it is true that God will never give you a cross that you cannot bear, it's also true that you can deliberately give yourself a cross that God didn't intend you to have and expects you to deliver yourself from. You advocate deliberately putting one's self into a playing-with-fire situation when there is no life or limb or God-directed imperative to do so.
You do not subject yourself to unnecessary temptation in order to justify "opportunities for growth" and then claim that God put you in this position, when God's very mouthpiece says otherwise.
Let's recall CCC 2239: ... ""Man's dignity therefore requires him to act out of conscious and free choice, as moved and drawn in a personal way from within, and not by blind impulses in himself or by mere external constraint."
Heterosexuals and homosexuals struggling with chastity alike, need to internalize and believe in their hearts that disorder is disorder, and not make compromises with the weakness as you suggest. "Mere external constraint" (see above) is what you are suggesting in your solution, and that goes against Church teaching. You're saying, one can just make a compromise, and live with the person they're infatuated with, kiss, hug, hold hands, and just exercise mere external constraint by not having genital contact. The Catholic Church says, remove yourself from unnecessary instances of temptation, and that's not what you are preaching here at all.

It doesn't say, "Just get some grace and you won't be tempted by passions."
Nor did I say that.
Whoever wants to REMAIN FAITHFUL must already be faithful--yet the CCC acknowledges temptations for these folks
Likewise, you'll find I acknowledge Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted, that recovered persons can be tempted, all examples of faithful persons being tempted.
If temptation is guaranteed not to exist for people in a state of grace
Who said that? I did not.
If I've got a weakness, I am to engage in battle against it... Here we see a prescription for an active and proactive battle against it, with actual ascetic practices geared toward that very weakness.
Your battle is to butt out of the battle. Ascetic practices are self-denying practices, to include fostering humble distrust of "your" powers to battle and to butt out of the battle. The prescription you've been given is for knocking yourself off, as in denying yourself, so that there's no (or less) "you" to be tempted, no "you" engaged in any battle, and no "you" who thinks yourself powerful enough to handle temptation. You are not defeating temptation, or necessarily leaving any room or building, but fleeing to God.
Temptation comes and goes, and when you are led by the Spirit, you go where the Spirit takes you, and that may be, as with Jesus, into the desert to be tempted. Temptation provides an opportunity for good, for practice of virtue and self-mastery. It can also trip you up. Avoiding temptation is much like avoiding deep water. That's great, until one day you find yourself in it, with inadequate skills to stay afloat. Some may read this as recommending you practice resisting greater and greater temptations. It is not, but if that is His will for you, then that is His will for you.
Your fantasy seems to include a man who easily and repeatedly passes through a danger zone without culpability or damage or even a resulting aversion to said danger zone.
The example of the near accident applies to anyone and everyone without exception. Its application to near occasions of sin applies to anyone/everyone who is and remains obedient to God while tempted.
I rather think my tale of arachnoid super-mutants from Pluto is far more realistic.
Your story of a man who was "where he didn't need to be" applies only to people who are not led by the Spirit. If the man were following the Spirit, in obedience to God, he'd be where he needs to be.
Which "fantasy" will be applicable to you when you are tempted? Will you be found to be faithful, or will you be found to be disobedient.
He seems to be speaking hyperbolically here but the point is that we should do ALL in our power to avoid even the near occasion of sin.
He is saying if your hand causes you to sin, better to chop it off. But if your hand does not cause you to sin, i.e. if you remain obedient to God, you are free to touch.
So, yeah, often times with any sin, you don't need to be there. That's the "near occasion" the Church teaches us to avoid.
Who is there when you deny yourself? God is there. God is everywhere. When you abide in God, you can be anywhere too, as He is, with no need to run out of the room when the naked lady walks in. It may be though that God calls you out of the room.
Of course, if you find yourself unable to abide in God in the face of temptation, you might think about leaving the room on your own -- or ask Him for the strength to remain. Ask and you will receive, if you believe in Him. He is faithful to you and will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you can bear.
If you are faithful to Him, you will be wherever you need to be -- and that may or may not mean you'll be in the room with the naked lady.
So much better for a man to sell his car, rather than be devoured automobile and all by the super-mutant arachnoids from Pluto. Or at least to buy a frikkin' map and avoid their part of town. Heck, those Plutonian guys make it a point of coming to look for you anyway. No sense at all in seeking them out.
With God's grace, I let God decide where I am to be. If He wills I sell my car, I do. If He wills I take the dangerous route, I do. I choose nothing on my own. God knows where I am to be, and I am here.
Self-mastery is a LONG AND EXACTING WORK. ONE CAN NEVER CONSIDER IT ACQUIRED ONCE AND FOR ALL. IT PRESUPPOSES RENEWED EFFORT AT ALL STAGES OF LIFE.
Yes indeed. With self-mastery comes knowing when to go and when one need not go. If you are arrogant, believing yourself to be faithful rather than simply being faithful in denial of yourself, you will likely find yourself tempted and failing. It's a reminder, indeed that you are here is a reminder, that there's always more work to do, to know yourself. Glory to God in His wisdom.

Oh and to answer the question of "...according to whom?" ... Seems to me that Jesus Himself is telling us that we don't need to be in certain overtly provocative situations (e.g.--a man kissing another man, etc. ... are you telling me that someone NEEDS to do that stuff?) when he tells us that it would be better to pluck out one's eye or cut off one's hand or foot (I know you know the chapter and verse of that paraphrase) rather than to sin. He seems to be speaking hyperbolically here but the point is that we should do ALL in our power to avoid even the near occasion of sin. Christ Himself advises a scorched Earth policy when confronting one's own temptations.
So, yeah, often times with any sin, you don't need to be there. That's the "near occasion" the Church teaches us to avoid.
So much better for a man to sell his car, rather than be devoured automobile and all by the super-mutant arachnoids from Pluto. Or at least to buy a frikkin' map and avoid their part of town. Heck, those Plutonian guys make it a point of coming to look for you anyway. No sense at all in seeking them out.

Pope Pipe: Your fantasy seems to include a man who easily and repeatedly passes through a danger zone without culpability or damage or even a resulting aversion to said danger zone. I rather think my tale of arachnoid super-mutants from Pluto is far more realistic.

CCC 2339: Chastity includes an apprenticeship in self-mastery which is a training in human freedom. The alternative is clear: either man governs his passions and finds peace, or he lets himself be dominated by them and becomes unhappy. "Man's dignity therefore requires him to act out of conscious and free choice, as moved and drawn in a personal way from within, and not by blind impulses in himself or by mere external constraint. Man gains such dignity when, ridding himself of all slavery to the passions, he presses forward to his goal by freely choosing what is good and, by his diligence and skill, effectively secures for himself the means suited to this end.

Hmm, I don't see anything about grace taking away occasions of sin here. And I see the opposite of treating passions as no big deal. It doesn't say, "Just get some grace and you won't be tempted by passions." On the contrary, it exhorts active resistance:
CCC 2340: Whoever wants to remain faithful to his baptismal promises and RESIST TEMPTATIONS will want to adopt the means for doing so: self-knowledge, practice of AN ASCESIS ADAPTED TO THE SITUATIONS THAT CONFRONT HIM, obedience to God's commandments, exercise of the moral virtues, and fidelity to prayer. "Indeed it is through chastity that we are gathered together and led back to the unity from which we were fragmented into multiplicity".

Whoever wants to REMAIN FAITHFUL must already be faithful--yet the CCC acknowledges temptations for these folks. The CCC does not remotely suggest that temptation and occasions of sin vanish.
If I've got a weakness, I am to engage in battle against it. But the CCC isn't talking about a passive resistance wherein you just tolerate the weakness, willingly stay in situations that would provoke it, and make compromises with it. Here we see a prescription for an active and proactive battle against it, with actual ascetic practices geared toward that very weakness. No coddling or compromising with it.
If temptation is guaranteed not to exist for people in a state of grace, why write all of this? Why doesn't it just say, "Go to Church and it'll all go away and you won't be near occasions of sin anymore"? How does anybody sin after they were once in a state of grace, if temptation wouldn't have been there?
CCC 2342: Self-mastery is a LONG AND EXACTING WORK. ONE CAN NEVER CONSIDER IT ACQUIRED ONCE AND FOR ALL. IT PRESUPPOSES RENEWED EFFORT AT ALL STAGES OF LIFE. The effort required can be more intense in certain periods, such as when the personality is being formed during childhood and adolescence.

Mmm hmm.

There was a man who was driving through an intersection where he A)didn't need to be
... according to whom? Herein lies the beginning of your fantasy, your indulgence.
Was that a near accident to the first car? Or was it no accident at all but a needless and deliberately, arrogantly foolish venture into hostile territory.
It's your fantasy. You fabricated it. You decide.

Cardinal Pipe: I meant to add that the super-mutant arachnoids from Pluto were designing the new spike strips so as to ensure the entrapment of the first car. The super-mutant arachnoids from Pluto understood that, being that the man escaped the spikes the first time, he'd be back and would probably be even more careless the next time 'round.

Dear Rabbi Pipe, my interpretation of your (false) words was meant to be applied to only Catholics, as it appeared to me that you intended them to be taken. Now that I see that this statement applies only to yourself, dear impervious one, I wonder which of your other statements apply only to yourself, dear mighty one. I now can only guess that ALL of your statements apply only to yourself (though I then wonder, dear invincibly-graced one, why you had bothered posting them here for all of us weak-willed members of the proletariat to read). It is now clear that your statements have no bearing on how the rest of the human race should comport itself and the rest of us can go back to doing what we've always been commanded by Christ and His Church: flee temptation, pray to not enter it to begin with and for deliverance from it when it confronts us, avoid the near occasion of sin, etc.
There was a man who was driving through an intersection where he A)didn't need to be B)was warned by numerous signs that it was covered in spike strips and tar and other debris and C)where others would follow him if they saw him go there.
Another car was following this man's car into the intersection from the same direction. This second man couldn't understand the language in which the signs were printed.
The first man's car avoided the spikes but couldn't avoid the tar and debris; this car came away still drivable, but quite dirty and scratched up.
The second man was not so lucky and his car was immediately and severely damaged to the point of being undrivable. Down to his rims, his car scraped to a halt. The locals, a species of arachnoid super-mutants from Pluto--far more ancient than mankind and angered at their planet's recent demotion by Terran scientists-- immediately descended upon this second car, devouring its occupant and carrying off his vehicle to parts unknown so as to fashion more spike-strips.
Was that a near accident to the first car? Or was it no accident at all but a needless and deliberately, arrogantly foolish venture into hostile territory.

why should I avoid holding hands or kissing (or whatever) with ANY woman I choose?... Any woman I want, at any time... kissing, embracing, whatever non-genital activity we can dream up. Yes or no? Moral or not? Why?
No one can make decisions for you. Until you deny yourself, you must decide for yourself.
Next, you can explain why it is a good idea for alcoholics to hang around in bars, and why those with sexual temptations ought to specially seek out strip clubs. After all, God will protect them from sin, right?
In 12-step programs, the notion that the person is in control is surrendered. God's control and protection is accepted. To quote, "We asked His protection and care with complete abandon." Recovered persons are protected by God, and in surrendering their will to God, the issue of hanging around bars or strip clubs is thereby up to Him.
God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it -- and no less so if it be His will that you're standing in a bar or strip club, or holding hands with a pretty lady who's not your wife.
He has proven (and proven and proven!) that he can't explain anything.
It's like pointing (and pointing and pointing!) to the moon, and all you keep seeing is my hand.
So please explain to us your comment, "In His grace, I am never near an occasion of sin
You're welcome to reread the Parable of the Near Accident.
Either (a) you are posting here just to pass the time and don't want us to listen to you or (b) you are implying that your words are equivalent to those of Jesus, and that by listening to you we are listening to Him
You're still listening to yourself if you believe your dichotomy to be the Truth.
You are a ( no "charitable word available)person.
Bless you Some Day.

"I will even be rash to say you are in mortal sin..."
Yes, that would be rash, as God did not give you the equipment to know the state of another's soul.

"I",
You are a ( no "charitable word available)person.
You probably are excommunitcated somehow.
I will even be rash to say you are in mortal sin because the persistance of your errors and the attempt to impose them on other souls.
God have mercy on us all...

I,
If you're going to keep telling us we are misinterpreting what you say, then please at least point out to us how we are erring. This time, I won't try to hear anything but what you yourself mean. So please explain to us your comment, "In His grace, I am never near an occasion of sin, no matter how close it may seem to be. In His grace, walking with Him, I fear not."
Also, lest I once again misinterpret, am I to equate your words with those of Our Lord? I know, as you tell me, that I should rely on Him and not on myself, but then why should I listen to what you say, either? Either (a) you are posting here just to pass the time and don't want us to listen to you or (b) you are implying that your words are equivalent to those of Jesus, and that by listening to you we are listening to Him...

"Next, you can explain..."
No, he can't. He has proven (and proven and proven!) that he can't explain anything.

I wonder if that means "yes" or "no"?
As one wonders what "all this" means.
explain to us how you manage to be "never near an occasion of sin, no matter how close it may seem to be. If this statement applies only to you, then please tell us, dear teacher, how we poor mortals can do the same?
Again, what you heard is but your own perception. Why not let Jesus be the Teacher, and listen to Him and not yourself.
There was a man who was driving through an intersection when another car was crossing the intersection from the other direction. They came very close but did not collide. Was that a near accident? Or was it no accident at all.

"I",
If you think that these are all only our "opinions"and stand apart from facts...
then are you crazy?!
No one here believes in these things you say because we like to consider ourselves ( and I hope we are right) Catholics ENTIRELY faithful to Church teachings.
You aren't going to pervert anyone here and we can't seem to convert you. So I will resign to the most effective method of breaking hard heads and hearts: pray

I,
if Jared's comment was "starkly limited" by extrapolating from you to the general population, please, if you would, explain to us how you manage to be "never near an occasion of sin, no matter how close it may seem to be. In His grace, walking with Him, I fear not." If this statement applies only to you, then please tell us, dear teacher, how we poor mortals can do the same?

"Tim J, what is 'all this'? Are you saying you don't kiss or hold anyone's hands but your wife's?"
I wonder if that means "yes" or "no"?

Instead of admitting that you had not sourced the quote
Dear princess, you were handed the quote as a gift, only to complain you weren't given the source. As always, dear princess, if you're ever in need, you only have to ask. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
you sneer at others for supposedly not knowing the Catechism.
It was yet another a gift for the dear princess, a fact: No Google search was needed by those who know their Catechism. But like before, the ever dissatisfied princess complains.
Your response about victims... you did not respond to what I said.
I did respond to what you said, dear princess. I told you you were wrong again, and gave you a clue to work from, the definition of victim. If you would, dear princess, open up your Bible and turn to the many places where Jesus, St. Paul and others speak of being victims, i.e. of being "injured, destroyed, or sacrificed", "tricked or duped" or "subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment." Here are just a few of their victim statements:
"I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches." (2 Cor 11:23-28)
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting." (Acts 9:6)
And then we have the Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons, Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, 1986: "It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the objects of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation".
The topper of all was this morning's post, which would be side-splittingly funny in its pomposity, except that I think you were being serious.
Your mistake is in thinking this morning's post is pompous. It is very sincere, as statements go: You're always welcome to be proven wrong. You only have to humble yourself, dear princess, to see it.
Is it okay for me to engage in all this "non-genital" activity with a woman who is not my wife? Holding hands, kissing...?
Tim J, what is "all this"? Are you saying you don't kiss or hold anyone's hands but your wife's?
If I see two men kissing, should I then just assume they are busy doing God's work?
Why not assume yourself to be wrong and go from there.
It seems obvious that your vice is more important to you than your faith, and that you will engage in any sort of mental gumnastics in order to justify yourself.
How things "seem" to you is but appearances. I don't give it the slightest credence.
This is so obviously and inherently false as to seemingly require no response.
Jared, dear warrior, it's your starkly limited interpretation of what was written that is false. I wasn't speaking about anyone else, nor did I intend that it be read apart from faith.

Many gays are simply sick of being picked upon.
We all of us have our crosses to bear.
That a certain course of action entails suffering for certain people is not an argument against it.

"In His grace, I am never near an occasion of sin, no matter how close it may seem to be."
This is so obviously and inherently false as to seemingly require no response (but since you apparently believe it, I suppose it does). If this were so, no baptized individual would ever sin, especially not mortally. Yet, we know that it happens all of the time. Again, after a good confession, we are awash in God's Grace, and yet, in that VERY Sacrament, the Church tells us that we must actively avoid the near occasion of sin.
At one point, many of the most vicious and hardened sinners walked in His Sanctifying Grace, only to be drawn in by sin, first by the near occasion (from which, once again, we are duty-bound to flee) and then by actual sin. So, not only is the statement in question false theology, it's not even logical.

Pipe, I see you avoised (again) answering my question. Is it okay for me to engage in all this "non-genital" activity with a woman who is not my wife? Holding hands, kissing...?
If I see two men kissing, should I then just assume they are busy doing God's work?
It seems obvious that your vice is more important to you than your faith, and that you will engage in any sort of mental gumnastics in order to justify yourself.

omg, I nearly spewed water on my keyboard.
Pipe, perhaps you missed that I said "thanks for proving my point"
In other words, thank you for showing just how difficult it is to have a two way discussion
with you.
Thank you for illustrating my point that your response to everyone is that they're wrong (five times to me, I didn't look at the others, in that last post plus the snide comment of "well, if you'd get it right just once).
Thank you for demonstrating that you sound as if you think you're the only one who correctly understands Catholic teaching on homosexuality.
"No Google search is needed by those who know their Catechism..." Actually, this is a "two for one." Instead of admitting that you had not sourced the quote, you sneer at others for supposedly not knowing the Catechism.
Your response about victims is a straw man. That is, you did not respond to what I said.
The topper of all was this morning's post, which would be side-splittingly funny in its pomposity, except that I think you were being serious.
At this point, I leave you in God's hands. I will continue to keep you in my prayers.

In His grace, I am never near an occasion of sin, no matter how close it may seem to be. In His grace, walking with Him, I fear not.
Make the case for this new theology which you propose: That in the state of grace, one is never near an occasion of sin (i.e. temptation).
Avoid making the case that you can overcome temptation with God's help, in doing so. Because that's a different case, and not what you said.

You're always welcome to be proven wrong. Consider it a blessing.

Pipe, thanks for proving my point and for doing it so completely.

I do see what you are saying... I put "just your perception" in quotes because that's what I've distilled variatons of that response down to.
Mary Kay, if you see what I'm saying as I see it, you'll understand that the quote you refer to is NOT the one I refer to. And as such, you didn't see what I was saying, no matter how much you might insist you do.
Your response to nearly all the comments to you is that the other poster is wrong.
Well, if you'd get it right just once, you might have a start.
I do wish that when people quote statements that they would give a source. So that others do not have to Google search, it's from the 2003 statement from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
No Google search is needed by anyone who knows their Catechism. The quoted statement comes directly from #2358.
Which brings me to the victim perception... Interesting that you picked out certain sentences to support a particular point, but miss the overall point of the CDF statement.
You presume wrong, once again. Let me quote from the CDF document you reference and let it explain it to you: "Moral conscience requires that, in every occasion, Christians give witness to the whole moral truth, which is contradicted both by approval of homosexual acts AND unjust discrimination against homosexual persons." I'm reminding of the latter, and am fully aware of the former.
Christ didn't die so that people could feel victimized. He suffered and died, he willingly suffered and died to free people from feeling victimized. None of the saints talk about feeling dumped on or victimized.
Wrong again. According to Webster's, willingly or not, even Jesus was a victim, as are the many martyred saints, as are murdered, oppressed and/or mistreated homosexuals:
Main Entry: victim
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin victima; perhaps akin to Old High German wIh holy
1 : a living being sacrificed to a deity or in the performance of a religious rite
2 : one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent : as a (1) : one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions [a victim of cancer] [a victim of the auto crash] [a murder victim] (2) : one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment [a frequent victim of political attacks] b : one that is tricked or duped [a con man's victim]
This makes no mention of genital sex, it says "relations". Kissing, hand holding, sleeping with, or otherwise acting out homosexual inclinations, *genitally or not*, are objectively disordered acts, because they flow from objectively disordered passions.
David B, your interpretation is contrary to Persona Humana, which defines homosexual relations as non-procreative genital acts, stating: "Homosexual relations are acts which lack an essential and indispensable finality." It's also contrary to the Catechism #2357 where homosexuality is defined and where it is stated of homosexual acts that, "They close the sexual act to the gift of life." It is speaking of non-procreative genital acts, not holding hands. Millions of homosexuals hold hands in compassion for one another without the slightest desire for disordered sex or indeed sex of any kind. Their holding hands isn't closing any sexual act, if for no other reason there is no sexual act in progress. To make it clear how silly your notion is, they hold hands in Church for God's sake!
In addition they cause scandal, which is sinful in itself.
Again, they hold hands in Church for God's sake, and yet you want to say that causes scandal. Your claim is silly if not perverse.
You're attempts to present your views as being somehow in line with Church teaching are disingenuous at best.
At best, your opinion is not the Truth.
YOU speak of homosexuality as if it's apart from sex.
I do not speak of homosexuality as if it's apart from genital sex acts when I'm referring specifically to the Church's definition of homosexuality as posted. But I may also use the words homosexual and homosexuality in keeping with the broader meaning afforded by the English language.
If Sexuality is only behavior
In the Church's definition as posted, it is only behavior, specifically non-reproductive genital sex acts. In the broader sense afforded by the English language, it's not simply behavior.
Sexual behavior is something man has control over (or I would probably have become a father many times over), and therefore the argument is false.
The only argument you've disproven is your own, the one you've IMAGINED me to be making. I have made no such argument.
If people who suffer from homosexual inclinations expose themselves to temptations by trying to find supposedly non-sexual ways of acting out their inclinations, they are guilty of grave sin.
I'm not suggesting anyone deliberately expose him/herself to temptation apart from God's will. But just as Jesus was led by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil, you cannot validly judge that someone has sinned just because you see that he's stepped into a pit of temptation, a whorehouse, pride parade or whatever it is you fear. In faith, in love, in the Spirit, I walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, fearing no evil whatsoever, turning evil to good.
Thy grace to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin.
In His grace, I am never near an occasion of sin, no matter how close it may seem to be. In His grace, walking with Him, I fear not.

David B: Quite right. This is why, in the Act of Contrition, we "firmly resolve with the help of Thy grace to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin." Indeed, the Baltimore Catechism speaks quite highly of avoiding such temptation: "The most effective means of overcoming temptation are prayer, mortification, frequent Confession and Holy Communion, and avoiding idleness and the near occasion of sin."

Another thought.
If people who suffer from homosexual inclinations expose themselves to temptations by trying to find supposedly non-sexual ways of acting out their inclinations, they are guilty of grave sin.

correction: I meant to say
"CAN'T resist acting upon his impulses."

"you speak of homosexuality as if it's apart from behavior"
YOU speak of homosexuality as if it's apart from sex.
If Sexuality is only behavior, and is not an act of the will, Then no one who suffers from the disorder and is tempted to lust after persons of his own sex can resist acting upon his impulses. But every last rational Human has Free Will and can resist doing anything he has control over. Sexual behavior is something man has control over (or I would probably have become a father many times over), and therefore the argument is false.

-My two cents worth:
"Abstain from ALL APPEARANCE of evil"- I thes. 5:22.

Okay, Pipe -
"Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex,"
This makes no mention of genital sex, it says "relations".
Kissing, hand holding, sleeping with, or otherwise acting out homosexual inclinations, *genitally or not*, are objectively disordered acts, because they flow from objectively disordered passions.
In addition they cause scandal, which is sinful in itself.
Or are you saying it would be okay for me to kiss, hold hands, sleep with a woman other than my wife, as long as we don't go "all the way"?
You're attempts to present your views as being somehow in line with Church teaching are disingenuous at best.
"It is not Church teaching that it's sinful to act upon that conscious recognition in good ways"
The ONLY good way to respond to homosexual temptations is to resist them.

Since I obviously still haven't figured out how to do urls, here's the shorthand one:
http://tinyurl.com/imqm
Anyway, back to the discussion. Interesting that you picked out certain sentences to support a particular point, but miss the overall point of the CDF statement.
When I started this post, I was going to say that feeling vicitimized is a sign of "room to grow" on the Christian journey.
Christ didn't die so that people could feel victimized. He suffered and died, he willingly suffered and died to free people from feeling victimized. None of the saints talk about feeling dumped on or victimized.
Despite the numerous posts on this thread, it's been difficult to have a discussion with you. Your response to nearly all the comments to you is that the other poster is wrong. And yes, I have noted that others have said that you're wrong. But you sound as if you think you're the only one who correctly understands Catholic teaching on homosexuality.
I'm sure there's more that could be said, but I have a full day of errands ahead of me.

Pipe, there is a difference between saying that you invalidate what others say, even that you invalidated what I said, and "feeling invalidated." I do see what you are saying and I don't feel invalidated.
Skipping down to the related considering how you come across, your response was a great example "the best defense is a good offense." I put "just your perception" in quotes because that's what I've distilled variatons of that response down to.
You are very adept with words and it's apparent that you've done a lot of book learning. And yet, you've missed crucial points in an intellectual sense.
Which brings me to the victim perception. I do wish that when people quote statements that they would give a source. So that others do not have to Google search, it's from the 2003 statement from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith at:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cf...

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