A Disheartening News Story

by Jimmy Akin on November 9, 2006

in The Church

THIS STORY WAS QUITE DISHEARTENING.

For several reasons.

Let’s start with the title:

Vatican opposes Saddam’s death sentence

Unless the pope has said something or unless he has approved the release of a text by a Vatican dicastery, that statement is not accurate. There is no Vatican policy on something unless one of those two things happens. If all you’ve got are the apparent personal opinions of people who work at the Vatican–which is all the article suggests it has–then you need to say "Vatican officials oppose Saddam’s death sentence" or something like that.

The article first turns to Cardinal Martino:

Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican’s Council for Justice and Peace, said carrying out the death sentence would be an unjustifiably vindictive action, reported Reuters.

"For me, punishing a crime with another crime, which is what killing for vindication is, would mean that we are still at the point of demanding an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," he was quoted as saying by Italian news agency Ansa.

This is the kind of sloppy language on social topics that regularly comes from some European churchmen.

First, it is grossly misleading to refer to imposing the death penalty as "punishing a crime with another crime." The death penalty is not a crime legally, nor is it one in principle morally, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church indicates when it states: "The traditional teaching of the Church does not
exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and
responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when
this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings
effectively against the aggressor" (CCC 2267).

Even if we assume that "killing for vindication" is a crime–an assumption that can be subject to extreme challenge–it does not follow that Saddam’s execution is simply killing for vindication. It may, indeed, be vital to the protection of Iraqi society and ending the violence that is occurring there. Even if there is a brief flare up of sectarian violence, that may well be less than the violence that would ensue from keeping him in prison. If it is then his death may be necessary as a way of protecting Iraqi lives.

Even apart from that, it seems hard to discern a rational basis for the claim that "killing for vindication" is "a crime." If someone is himself a murderer then killing him would seem to amount not to a crime but to justice–i.e., rendering unto the person according to his merits. If you want to oppose the death penalty on other grounds–like it prevents rehabilitation or could be inflicted on the innocent accidentally–then fine. Those are extrinsic reasons to oppose the death penalty. They do not make the act itself "a crime." If you’ve got someone dead to rights, like Saddam, who clearly committed crimes against humanity then the act of putting him to death is intrinsically an act of justice, even if you think there are extrinsic reasons you shouldn’t perform that act of justice.

This is something that the head of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace ought to understand.

Calling an act of justice a crime is grossly misleading and is language that does not meet the standard of high moral clarity that should be found in the public utterances of an official of the Vatican.

Furthermore, putting Saddam to death–by hanging or any other means the Iraqis are likely to use–is not remotely an "eye for an eye" situation. The lex talionis means demanding of the offender exactly what he inflicted on his victim, and given the magnitude of Saddam’s crimes, the only way to begin to do to him what he has done to others would be to strap him to a table and perform surgery on him to implant electrical wires into his brain’s pain center and then turn on enough voltage to leave him in constant screaming pain for years and years so that he experiences something approaching the magnitude of the suffering that he inflicted on the countless individuals who he had tortured, raped, and killed–as well as the constant fear he instilled in millions of Iraqis and the anguish of all those whose family members he had tortured, raped, or killed.

The fact that the Iraqis are simply proposing to hang him means that they are showing him considerable mercy and not actually inflicting on him something proportionate to what he did to others, meaning that this is not an "eye for an eye" situation.

So more sloppy language.

Then the cardinal makes a jaw-dropping statement:

"Unfortunately, Iraq is one of the few countries that have not yet made the civilized choice of abolishing the death penalty," he said.

Here is a map of the countries of the world based on the status of the death penalty in them. The blue countries are the ones that have banned the death penalty. All the others allow it in varying situations:

Death_penalty_world_map

SOURCE.

It is clearly not the case that Iraq is one of a "few" countries that have not banned the death penalty. The majority of world countries still retain it in their laws, and the remark raises serious questions about the state of Cardinal Martino’s knowledge about the state of affairs in the world that are part of the subject matter of the dicastery which he oversees. It may be from a European perspective (some might say, a European cocoon) that it looks like everyone has eliminated the death penalty, but this is far from the case.

Characterizing this as "the civilized choice" displays an offensive sense of moral superiority in that it implies that those who have not banned the death penalty are uncivilized–which is manifestly not true. Not only have the vast majority of world civilizations had the death penalty–including Rome and Catholic Italy until very recently–but the majority of them today have it as well.

The article then turns to someone else:

Fr. Michele Simone, deputy director of the Jesuit journal Civilta Cattolica, told Vatican Radio that opposing the death penalty does not mean accepting what the former leader has done.

"Certainly, the situation in Iraq will not be resolved by this death sentence. Many Catholics, myself included, are against the death penalty as a matter of principle," the Jesuit priest was quoted as saying.

"Even in a situation like Iraq, where there are hundreds of de facto death sentences every day, adding another death to this toll will not serve anything," he said.

This is simply outrageous. While Fr. Simone does not specify whether the "de facto death sentences" are those deaths brought about by terrorists or those fighting the terrorists, it is outrageous to establish a moral equivalence between the lawful execution of a convicted mass murderer–which is in itself an act of justice–and the acts of terrorists. It is further outrageous to refer to the acts of those fighting terrorists as "de facto death sentences." This applies whether the people in question are terrorists themselves or civilian casualties who are accidentally killed.

It also is fatuous to trot out the "violence doesn’t solve anything" bromide in the way Fr. Simone does, telling us that "adding another death to this toll will not serve anything."

In fact, violence properly used solves quite a lot, which is why the Church acknowledges the use of lethal force in what it terms "legitimate defense" (CCC 2263-65). Violence solved the problem of the Nazis and Italian fascism, and putting Saddam to death can in fact serve several things:

1) It will at least partially serve upon him the justice that he deserves,
2) It will serve the families who are still aching after what Saddam did to them and their now-dead relatives,
3) It may well serve to pacify Iraq in the long run, and
4) It will serve as a warning to other dictators of what can happen to them.

It is hard not to wonder whether individuals such as Cardinal Martino and Fr. Simone would have similarly argued against the execution of Adolf Hitler had he been captured at the end of World War II instead of committing suicide.

In any event, these are statements unworthy of responsible churchmen. If one wants to oppose the death penalty on various grounds, fine, but these aren’t worthy ones, and these kinds of deliverances do not further rational dialogue on the matter.

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Wonder what it's like to be that nuts?

Should we charge DON RUMSFIELD?
The crimes for which Saddam Hussein was charged with were at the same time that the US was supporting Saddam Hussein including the famous photo with Rumsfield and intelligence and weapons support.

Should we charge DON RUMSFIELD?
The crimes for which Saddam Hussein was charged with were at the same time that the US was supporting Saddam Hussein including the famous photo with Rumsfield and intelligence and weapons support.

Jim,
Thanks for saying what some Cardinals should be saying but don't due to the total conformity that is de rigeur once one has overstated the respect due to the Vatican.
bill bannon

David B. -
I couldn't agree more. His execution seems like the classic case for capital punishment, even under the new Catechism and all its practical caveats.

It's not (or at least shouldn't be) about revenge, but about executing an extremely dangerous man in a volatile country. Capital Punishment, IMHO, is very justified in this case.
God have mercy on Saddam's soul.

I asked God to give him the grace of final repentence, like He did the Good Thief. I'll bet many others asked God the same.

Sadam has been executed per Al-Arabiya news which had a witness at the execution.
May God forgive him for the great evil he has perpertrated on the Iraquis, Kuwaitis, Iranians and who knows how many more.
Justice is done in the new Iraq.
Beth V.

Jared,
I befriended such a man on death row. Neither I, nor he, had much doubt that receiving a death sentence literally saved his life.
Having said that, the Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of providing salvific grace in other ways, and the fact that some may have received it in that fashion does not, by itself, justify continued use of the death penalty.
While I agree with much of Jimmy's analysis regarding the sloppiness accompanying the discussion of this issue, I personally have little doubt that either the great Pope John Paul II or the current Pope Benedict XVI would regard Saddam's death penalty as necessary. I concede that they would not regard themselves as the infallible authorities on its necessity, but they are sufficiently well-informed on the surrounding circumstances for their opinions to carry great weight. I also concede that they have not spoken directly on this particular execution, and so I may well be mistaken as to what their view about it is or would have been.
Tim is correct when he says that we should be "pro-life" rather than "pro-death penalty." In fact, I had a very wise moral theology professor who explained quite coherently that the death penalty is only legitimate when it is pro-life. The problem with its application these days, quite apart from a need for it for physical safety, is that society at large cannot see the pro-life message being communicated. Or what my moral theology professor referred to as the "transcendent value of life."
I would use abortion as one piece of evidence that our society is simply too immature to understand the pro-life message in the death penalty. A society that aborts 5000 innocent babies a day, that sees nothing wrong with doing so and is not, in fact, horrified by that statistic, does not understand life. They are not capable of receiving the witness about the transcendent value of life that has always made the death penalty a legitimate option.
The traditional teaching of the Church allowing the death penalty is rooted in a pro-life message. Retributive justice is inherently pro-life. But when the audience cannot hear the message, the language sometimes need to be changed. While some will undoubtedly and authentically see a pro-life message in Saddam's execution, most of the world, unfortunately, will not.

"I agree, Augustine; alive, Saddam's a potential bargaining chip and a cause to fight for."

As Catholics we should be pro-life not pro-death-penalty. Since there is no need of the death penalty it shouldn't ever be applied anymore. We should show mercy as God has been merciful to us. We should pray for Saddam.

Many a killer on death row has been converted precisely BECAUSE death was imminent and not some nebulous "someday." Would they have converted without knowledge of their impending doom? Perhaps. But I've read some case histories and know enough about human nature to doubt that.

We are all deserving of death and eternal death along with Saddam but Jesus Christ has come to save us and Saddam. Killing Saddam gives him less time to come to repentance. Also there is no need for the death penalty anywhere in the world. I quote the saintly John Paul II. "I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary"

Of course, that should read "after reading the link"...

Michael, sfter reading the link, I think you should - in the interests of accuracy - re-title the post "ONE Catholic's Response to the Sentencing of Saddam"
Saddam will be a danger as long as he remains alive.

My response to Jimmy Akin's post:
A Catholic Response to the Sentencing of Saddam

JOHN:
Upon re-reading my post above, please don't mistake my desire to accomodate your reading difficulties as uncharitable; in fact, it is quite the opposite. I just wanted to accomodate you in case you might feel you are unable to take in large amounts of information since there were others here who have remarked that you might have this problem as far as your reading abilities are concerned.
Please don't be embarassed as this doesn't make one any less of a person in the eyes of God. All are precious in the eyes of God. The point here being that I will go to whatever extent necessary to help you out in trying to work out these issues with you. That is, as far as this blog allows us.

Scripture (and you said the church teaches nothing that is not backed up by scripture) teaches clearly that only through Jesus will one come to the father , as well as the Council of Florence and the church for centuries which taught we are the ONE TRUE CHURCH.
JOHN:
You DID NOT READ ALL of my original post to you (or, more likely, didn't comprehend most of it).
Here, I'll try to make it simple for you and provide you with just a bitesize of it to accomodate your reading comprehension difficulties:
It’s very important as Catholics that we understand that we take all of the conciliar teachings – not just a few. Just as folks take bible verses out of context, it’s very easy to take conciliar statements out of context as well and I’ll just mention John 14:6 and Jesus’ words are unequivocal: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man comes to the Father except by me. Yet, in the very next chapter", in John 15:22, Jesus would say to the Jews: "If I had not spoken to them, they would have no sin; but now I have spoken to them, their sin remains."
(Thus, John, your sin remains if you continue in the manner that you have, Brutha, since you are aware of these Truths!)
There, the same Lord who said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life", also indicates here in the very next Chapter that it is possible for people who have never rejected his statement of "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" to not be culpable for that because they had no way of knowing it.
And so, this is a very ancient tradition in the Church.
It goes all the way back not only to the words of Our Lord but to the words of St. Paul.
In Romans 2:14, Paul actually talks about those who are apart from the law who keep the natural law written on their hearts become a law unto themselves and the law will either accuse them or excuse them in the Day of Judgment.
St. Paul is very plain that there is a possibility that folks who are apart from the True Faith through no fault of their own can possibly be saved.
St. Justin Martyr, in his first apology, talks about how you have some philosophers who he refers to as Christians: they’re seeking the Logos even though they’ve never heard of Christ. Now, he doesn’t develop the Theology as we have it today, but we see an indicator there and you’ll find that elsewhere throughout the history of the Church.

John,
Can you reconcile the passages of Sacred Scripture that you quoted and I quoted or not?
At least try to answer the questions people ask you.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Esau
Exactly that as your first sentence said it all in your reference to Lumen Gentium
Scripture (and you said the church teaches nothing that is not backed up by scripture) teaches clearly that only through Jesus will one come to the father , as well as the Council of Florence and the church for centuries which taught we are the ONE TRUE CHURCH.
You reference vatican II and that CHANGED what was taught and therefore is pastoral and is not to be adhered to. And as my father or any Lawyer would say, if one piece of evidence is tainted, the rest is as well

JOHN:
Remember that GOD IS THE SOURCE OF ALL GOOD.
Therefore, if there should be any good found in the other religions, those could only have come from God since He is the Source of All Good.

"Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth etc..."
Let's break this down. First, the Council Fathers elsewhere agree that Catholicism contains the fullness of Truth, a revelation superior to that found in other religions. They also recognize the fact that error is often mixed with truth in other religions:
"But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature" the Church fosters the missions with care and attention."
- Lumen Gentium 16
So the interpretation that the Council is saying that all religions are equal, or are paths to salvation as trustworthy as the Catholic Church can be thrown right out. Still with me, John?
Now what are we left with? Well, the fact should be obvious to everyone that even though the Catholic Church protects the deposit of Faith, other religions contain some aspects of the Truth. For example, the Jews and Muslims believe in one God, Protestants believe in the Trinity and in Christ, etc...Since these beliefs are true, the Church has no other recourse but to recognize them as such, which is all the Fathers are saying in the document. To deny what the Father's are saying would involve oneself in self-contradiction, for to deny that other religions contain some truth would be to deny the truths one believes in as a Catholic (I pause to note that Aquinas believed that one could come to believe certain spiritual truths through natural reason). As I also showed, VII still holds that only in the Catholic Church can the full Truth be found.
Again, what Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetea does is make the distinction between the fact that other religions may believe some things that are true, and the fact that Catholicism contains the full Splender of Truth. St. Justin Martyr said basically the same thing when he wrote that Socrates was a Christian as Esau has pointed out. And St. Paul and St. Peter(!) also speak of the Law being apparent even to the Gentiles. The teaching of Vatican II is thus firmly rooted in both Scripture and Tradition, and demands assent.

John, John, John, John:
Well, let's go through what you're implying: that the TRUE Catholic Church teaches that there is no Salvation outside the Church. Yet, there are people outside the visible bounds of the Catholic Church that, as Lumen Gentium Par 16 says, are related to the Catholic Church in various ways.
Pope St. Pius X himself taught the possibility of Salvation for those who are invincibly ignorant of the truth; that is, they never rejected the truth of the Catholic Faith, but they, through no fault of their own, are in a position where they never received the fullness of the Faith, yet they can receive the grace of the Sacraments. Pope Eugene says that apart from the Sacraments, there is no Salvation, but the grace of the Sacraments can be received outside the visible bounds of the Church; therefore, those who are saved can only be saved by the grace that comes through the Church but, nevertheless, people outside of the visible boundaries – and again I emphasize the visible bounds or boundaries of the Catholic Church – can receive the grace of Salvation.
Now, the Holy Office in 1949 was very, very specific as to how these graces can be received. The person who receives these graces (1) must be invincibly ignorant (2) they must have supernatural faith (3) perfect charity in their hearts. That’s extremely difficult to obtain outside the Church or, I should say, it’s difficult to attain to outside the Church – yet it’s not as though it's impossible given the way God works. I think one of the problems in the modern era here, as Pope Paul VI said on Dec 8, 1975 when he promulgated Evangelii Nuntiandi, where in that encyclical letter, the Pope actually was specifically talking about those who were taking this teaching of the Church to such an extreme to mean that we actually don’t have to evangelize because these people are okay. He calls this as one of the most insidious errors and he says the reason why this is so insidious is because they’re based upon this or that supposed or alleged teaching of the Council by certain individuals out there who have misinterpreted it as such.
It’s very important as Catholics that we understand that we take all of the conciliar teachings – not just a few. Just as folks take bible verses out of context, it’s very easy to take conciliar statements out of context as well and I’ll just mention John 14:6 and Jesus’ words are unequivocal: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man comes to the Father except by me. Yet, in the very next chapter, in John 15:22, Jesus would say to the Jews: "If I had not spoken to them, they would have no sin; but now I have spoken to them, their sin remains."
(Thus, John, your sin remains if you continue in the manner that you have, Brutha, since you are aware of these Truths!)
There, the same Lord who said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life", also indicates here in the very next Chapter that it is possible for people who have never rejected his statement of "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" to not be culpable for that because they had no way of knowing it.
And so, this is a very ancient tradition in the Church.
It goes all the way back not only to the words of Our Lord but to the words of St. Paul.
In Romans 2:14, Paul actually talks about those who are apart from the law who keep the natural law written on their hearts become a law unto themselves and the law will either accuse them or excuse them in the Day of Judgment.
St. Paul is very plain that there is a possibility that folks who are apart from the True Faith through no fault of their own can possibly be saved.
St. Justin Martyr, in his first apology, talks about how you have some philosophers who he refers to as Christians: they’re seeking the Logos even though they’ve never heard of Christ. Now, he doesn’t develop the Theology as we have it today, but we see an indicator there and you’ll find that elsewhere throughout the history of the Church.
By the way, the manner in which you started that post of yours is not quite unlike my Anti-Catholic friends who actually put out tracts against the Catholic Church. Would you happen to be interested in a job working for them? Their pay is pretty decent, too, I've heard!
God forgive you, John, for the assaults you inflict on Christ's own Church!
Remember what Christ said to Paul when he was struck down on the way to Damascus: "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"
Although, Saul seemed as if he was simply persecuting the Church, he, in fact, was persecuting Christ himself!

I apologize to everyone. I know this is off topic but John seems to be jumping through comboxes.

John,
I would also suggest you read Romans chapter 12.
9: Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good;
10: love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor.
14: Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
16: Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; never be conceited.
17: Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.
18: If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

John,
Now you must reconcile those passages with Mark 9:38 and Luke 9:49.
38: John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us."
39: But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me.
40: For he that is not against us is for us.
41: For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Esau says
"First off, there’s nothing in Catholic Church Teaching that will ever contradict Scripture"
Well how about "Nostre Aetate , October 1965"
(2) "Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth.."
Reverence for these false faiths as taught by the Council fathers where scritpure says:
"If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you." (2 John 1:10).
Or Matthew as far as salvation:
7.13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 7.14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Or the Gospel of Luke
"Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, 'The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.' Yet know this: the kingdom of God is at hand. I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would long ago have repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. And as for you, Capernaum, 'Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.'" Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." The seventy (-two) returned rejoicing, and said, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us because of your name." Jesus said, "I have observed Satan fall like lightning from the sky. Behold, I have given you the power 'to tread upon serpents' and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy and nothing will harm you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice because your names are written in Heaven."
Hmmm...Seems like a clear contradiction to me ESAU?

MaryC,
you're right, Saddam was just a good ol' boy having some fun, he should have been left alone to gas some more Kurds... (Kurds are not Israeli by the way).

Jimmy,
All I can say in response to this is YOU ROCK!!! One more in a long list of lucid and well-reasoned discourses. Keep 'em comin'.

when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor" (CCC 2267).
That's the Teaching of the Church folks.

It concerns me that those who would rail against the Picking and choosing of morals disregard what the Catholic Church's teaching is about the D.P. Thank God Jimmy went by the book on this one.
And yes I do believe that S.H. poses a threat to his people and his country and so falls under the exceptions to the rule. We must guard against and eye for an eye. Of course many people disagree with me on this; including my own husband. It makes him so angry when I tell him that if anyone ever murdered me I would not want that person to get the D.P. . We have the ability to protect society, incarcarate for life those that murder others.
Pro-life all the way. One never knows what wonders God can work on a lost soul.

Bravo, Jimmy, you have put into prose what ive been thinking about the Vatican wussies for years. Please keep on them!

Well Tim J, thankfully, I haven't been brainwashed by Fox News and other Zionist 'news' outlets as you seem to have been. What precicsely was the war in Iraq about? Can you enlighten me? It seems we were just doing Israel's dirty work as per usual

Once again Jimmy cuts to the chase and brings clarity where others have fogged things up.

If capital punishment is ever justified, it would certainly be in the case of Saddam. I think the most compelling reason for it would be that if he ever escaped from prison, he might very well come back to power and continue to kill thousands of innocent people. He is a brutal, ruthless murderer and society has to be protected from his likes.
One particular horror story that I read of: a young woman who refused the advances of Saddam's son was thrown into prison in a remote desert location. She was beaten and tortured. Finally, she was stripped, covered with honey, and put out as food for a pack of dogs that had been starved for over a week.

Love them. Bless them. Do good to them. Pray for them.
And the best thing for Saddam Hussein is repentance, and doing things to him which lead him to recognize the evil of his deeds is therefore the best good we can do to them. Punishing him severely would therefore be the best thing we can do for him.
That is what hanging can accomplish. What better thing can we do?
Death is far from the greatest evil he faces!

Al-Qaida in Iraq claims 12,000 fighters
Tape cites U.S. elections, vow made to blow up White House

AL-QAIDA IN IRAQ: WE'RE WINNING
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15652670/
MSNBC News Services
Updated: 11:06 a.m. PT Nov 10, 2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Al-Qaida in Iraq claimed in a new audio tape Friday to be winning the war faster than expected in Iraq and said it had mobilized 12,000 fighters, while the U.S. military reported the deaths of four more American troops.
Three U.S. soldiers and a Marine were killed Thursday in Iraq, the U.S. military said, bringing the number of Americans who have died in the country so far this month to 25. At least 105 U.S. forces died in October, the fourth highest monthly toll of the war.
Since the war started in March 2003, 2,845 members of the U.S. military have died, according to an Associated Press count.
On the audio tape made available on militant Web sites, the al-Qaida in Iraq leader also welcomed the Republican electoral defeat that led to the departure of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
(Excerpt)

The poster who still thinks that Saddam masterminded 9/11...
ERIC:
I don't believe anyone here ever stated that they believed, either implicitly or explicitly, that Saddam masterminded 9/11!
However, to claim to be opposed to something but always in favor of the latest exception to the rule means you are really in favor of it. Example: war. People will always say, "I'm opposed to war, but..."
Okay, I guess then when your family is attacked or threatened with murder or rape and the only way to prevent this is to defend yourself and kill the assailant, you'd probably say: "Well, since I'm against murder, have at it with my family and do what you want with them!"
Also, I guess since the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI and even Scripture itself didn't eliminate the need for Capital Punishment all together, then, really, based on your statement, they're actually, in truth, all pro-murder!

"I'm opposed to war, but..." and then they go on to say why this latest war is the 100th straight exception to their strongly held anti-war beliefs.
In re-reading this, I realize I give the impression I am talking about Iraq in this line. I am not. I meant to refer to whatever the latest war is. Hope that clarifies things and avoids a heated digression!

The poster who still thinks that Saddam masterminded 9/11 is one example of the school of thought that says that if someone only knew of how awful a crime really was, we would make an exception in this particular case in favor of capital punishment. We see this all the time in news reports of capital cases, when someone inevitably says, "In general I'm against the death penalty, but in this case...." One also sees it in discussions such as these (which thankfully has not happened in this discussion) where someone inevitably posts -- usually in ALL CAPS -- graphic details of what the killer did, with the assumption that should win converts to their cause.
However, to claim to be opposed to something but always in favor of the latest exception to the rule means you are really in favor of it. Example: war. People will always say, "I'm opposed to war, but..." and then they go on to say why this latest war is the 100th straight exception to their strongly held anti-war beliefs.
So if we are to "choose life," then we must begin with that stance. As one commenter pointed out, the burden of proof -- at least for those who claim to adhere to the teachings contained in the Catechism -- is on those who favor capital punishment, not on those who oppose it.
Now some commenters have said the death penalty is the only way to keep someone from killing again. The murder of fellow inmates was cited. However, this is not a reason to execute all murderers. It is a reason to improve prison security. Even if that means, as a last resort, isolation from others, as one commenter also pointed out.
One should not legislate from the exceptions. To do so would only provide a better case against capital punishment, because people on death row have been found to be innocent. So if these wrongful convictions are the exception, should we not make that the cause for legislation? You can't have your cake and eat it too, in this regard. Which is why the Church teaching wisely avoids mere pragmatism. (For the record, I would be inclined to say that wrongful convictions are a valid argument against capital punishment, although I will not go there because I don't like people who spew out 101 reasons for or against something -- I much prefer one or two central reasons well-stated because I think that's more honest.)
As for deterrence, one poster says some studies show it works. Others show it does not. When asked about the efficacy of the death penalty when he was governor of Texas, George W. Bush said, "I know the studies show it's not a deterrent. But I just believe it is." Whatever you think of him, you will have to admit gut feelings are not a good basis for legislation.
So back to Saddam. While I've complained about those who see exceptions everywhere they turn, I am willing to make this one exception due to the state of civil war in that nation. I don't think the war was justified, I don't necessarily think the trial was an exemplar of stellar international jurispridence, I don't even necessarily think Iraq is better off now than it was under Saddam. But the guy clearly did kill people and was convicted. There is a strong possibility that a life sentence could be undermined.
The principle of Roman law is to legislate the ideal and then deal with exceptions. That's our approach as Catholics -- not the other way around as some here have argued, legislating by the exceptions and then dealing later with ideals.

...close ranks with the GOP to send a clear message to Al Qaeda - we don't intend to lose in Iraq, and we will not allow the new Iraqi government to be overrun.
Tim J, my Brutha in Christ!
Just as a female Military Officer that was interviewed on the News yesterday evening said (and I wished I had taped it!) -- that she refuses to leave Iraq without fulfilling the very mission they all came out there to do and have the deaths of all those brave fellow soldiers who served with her be in vain!

Esau -
Your post highlights what is, to me, possibly the most damaging effect of handing control of Congress to the Dems; the message sent to the Jihadis. They have no reason not to read the election results as saying "Americans are tired of fighting. We are wearing them down. We are winning".
If they Dems are smart, they will put duct tape over the mouths of the usual suspects on the anti-military fringe (Howard Dean, John Kerry, et al) and close ranks with the GOP to send a clear message to Al Qaeda - we don't intend to lose in Iraq, and we will not allow the new Iraqi government to be overrun. They should say this loudly and often - in the same way that Charlie Rangel recently blasted Hugo Chavez for insulting the President. Then, they should back it up with action.
It may be, in these times, that only a Democrat president can lead the U.S. to war and maintain support for it. Only Nixon could go to China. Anyone remember how the war in the Balkans was covered by the MSM? No daily death counts, no bad news, no questioning of the strategy, no griping about unilateralism (Clinton did not even bother with the pretense of asking permission from the U.N.). It was something happening to other people, halfway around the world. Unfortunate, but - you know - necessary.
So, let the Dems lay out their plan, and just watch all the good news that starts pouring out of Iraq. NOW we will find out about all the humanitarian efforts that our soldiers have been risking their lives for... we will see the hospitals, roads, water lines, power plants... its okay to report on those things NOW, because the GOP is on the way out, and the President is neutered.

"Personally, I don't think Saddam is any worse than Bush, Blair or the psychopaths who run the criminal state of Israel"
I wouldn't brag about that, MaryC. It is a bit like insisting that the sun is really a giant egg yolk because both are round and yellow. If you really don't see the difference, I doubt any amount of evidence would convince you, and I detest even the thought of wasting my time and energy in such a useless enterprise.

Speaking of which:
Al-Qaida in Iraq: We're Winning
CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida in Iraq claimed in a new audiotape on Friday to have mobilized 12,000 fighters and said the group was winning faster than expected.
“The al-Qaida army has 12,000 fighters in Iraq, and they have vowed to die for God’s sake,” said Abu Hamza al-Muhajir, in an audiotape made available on militant Web sites.
Also known as Abu Ayyub al-Masri, al-Muhajir became the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq after Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killed by the U.S. military in June.
The al-Qaida leader also described President Bush as “the most stupid leader that America, the country of slaves and narcotics, has ever known.”
He said Bush’s policies had allowed Iran to spread its influence in Afghanistan and Iraq after Washington toppled their Sunni rulers, and expanded Iran’s reach into Syria and Lebanon.
“I swear by God we shall not rest from jihad until we ... blow up the filthiest house known as the White House,” he added.
Challenging the Bush administration, he said: “I tell the lame duck do not rush to escape as did your defense minister ... stay on the battleground.”
“The American people have taken a step in the right path to come out of their predicament ... they voted for a level of reason,” he added.

Personally, I don't think Saddam is any worse than Bush, Blair or the psychopaths who run the criminal state of Israel

TIM M:
To clarify, there are those of us who seek justice (be they American or Iraqi), who have suffered tremendously at the hands of such individuals (be it Saddam or Bin Laden), who seek justice and do not want to suffer the same tragedies at their hands once again (should we allow any leeway for possible escape) or any who should come to follow in their footsteps.
Thus, Jimmy's view can be quite understandable in the eyes of those of us who suffered such overwhelming tragedies:
1) It will at least partially serve upon him the justice that he deserves,
2) It will serve the families who are still aching after what Saddam did to them and their now-dead relatives,
3) It may well serve to pacify Iraq in the long run, and
4) It will serve as a warning to other dictators of what can happen to them.

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