Defining Torture: Proposing A Definition

by Jimmy Akin on November 27, 2006

in Moral Theology

Thus far we have seen that torture involves the infliction of pain but that not all infliction of pain counts as torture. There can be legitimate reasons for inflicting even extreme pain (as in the case of an emergency operation when anesthetic is not available) and there can be legitimate reasons to inflict pain in order to achieve legitimate behavioral goals (like getting people to obey the law).

I don’t think that a definition of torture that focuses exclusively on the level of pain or on the purpose of the pain will be successful in capturing much of our commonsense understanding of torture (Parameter 1) and in picking out something that is intrinsically evil (Parameter 2).

Instead, I think that a more satisfying definition of torture can be developed by relating the quantity and purpose of the pain.

You’ll note that one of the things that the Catechism said regarding punishment was "Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime" (CCC 2266). This statement contains an insight that I think will allow us to develop a more robust and intellectually satisfying definition of torture.

You’ll note that the Catechism also referred to torture as potentially involving the punishment of the guilty, and historically some people have been sentenced to torture in order to punish them for their crimes. But we might say, per 2266, that a punishment would not be torture if the punishment is commensurate with the gravity of the crime.

Clearly different crimes have different gravities. Those that are only light offenses should receive light penalties, while those that are more grave offenses should–in keeping with justice (i.e., giving someone what they deserve)–receive heavier penalties.

But what if the state starts handing out punishments that are disproportionate to the offense? If the government really is inflicting excessive amounts of pain that outstrip the gravity of the offense then it seems that in this case you could say that punishing the guilty has become an act of torture. At least it seems to me that you could use language in this way.

What if we apply the same insight to the other common torture motives?

We mentioned earlier that it doesn’t always seem to be torture if someone uses fear to get someone to confess to a crime (e.g., a lawyer who advises his client what the consequences of not confessing will be if it is later proven that he’s guilty of the crime). But what if a disproportionate amount of fear is inflicted on the suspect? It seems to me that you could at that point say that the person is being tortured. Or at least you could use language that way.

And how about frightening opponents? We noticed that the criminal justice system is based on using punishments to keep potential lawbreakers in line, and that’s legitimate as long as the punishments "correspond to the gravity of the crime" that they are attached to. But what if they’re excessive–what if the state starts handing out electroshock for things as trivial as parking violations? In that case the rule of law becomes a reign of terror, and the punishments could be seen as torture.

And, of course, any use of pain to satisfy hatred (properly understanding what counts as hatred, as opposed to justified anger) could count as torture–even if the parvity of the pain would make it a really light torture.

Going this route seems to allow us to propose a definition that would capture a great deal of the things that our commonsense understanding would count as torture.

So let’s try this definition and see how it works: The sin of torture consists in the disproportionate infliction of pain.

You’ll note that I’ve specified torture in its moral aspect (the sin of torture) rather than its legal aspect (the crime of torture). Because of the way the civil law works, torture will have to be cashed out in more concrete terms in a civil law definition, but it’s the moral aspect we’re interested in, and moral definitions tend to be more general. Morally speaking, theft is the taking of another’s property against the reasonable will of its owner, but the crime of theft is going to be cashed out differently in the civil law. It’s the same thing on the subject of torture.

So how does the definition work in practice?

Well, as we noted, it would allow us to distinguish between the legitimate use of pain to achieve legitimate goals and the illegitimate use of pain to achieve the same goals. That’s a good thing.

It allows us to recognize that extreme pain can be legitimate in extreme circumstances but illegitimate in non-extreme ones. That’s a good thing, too.

It also allows us to focus on the pragmatics of particular situations. For example, it is often pointed out that torture should not be used in the criminal justice system because if you torture people to extract confessions then they will confess falsely, simply to end the pain. Torture, in other words, doesn’t work when being applied to the goal of getting at the truth in a criminal prosecution.

Our proposed definition allows us to recognize the fact that some pain (e.g., fear from being warned of what will happen if you don’t confess and are later proved to be guilty) can lead to true confessions while excessive pain will lead to false ones. The line into torture (and this is by nature a blurry but nonetheless real line) would be crossed when enough pain/fear is applied that you cease motivating true confessions and start motivating false ones. So the definition seems to work in this context.

It also would allow us to distinguish between legitimate punishment to deter crime and torture that creates a reign of terror. And that applies whether we’re talking about parents punishing vs. torturing their children or the state punishing vs. torturing its citizens.

It further allows us to recognize that it would not be wrong to twist a terrorist’s arm behind his back if he knows the location of a time bomb that is about to go off and there is no other way to effectively motivate him to tell us where it is.

Yet it would be torture to twist his arm behind his back if the threat is less imminent and traditional interrogation means will be as or more effective than arm twisting to get the needed information from him.

I’m not sure that our proposed definition captures all of our commonsense understanding of torture, but it seems rather promising so far and technical definitions invariably don’t capture everything that a pre-reflective understanding does.

Try out this proposition and see how it strikes you: Morally speaking, the evil in an act of torture consists in the infliction of a disproportionate amount of pain.

That strikes me as quite plausible. If what you are doing doesn’t involve the infliction of a disproportionate amount of pain then it doesn’t strike me as being torture. What’s wrong about torture is that you’re inflicting more pain than you should.

(From one perspective an act of torture could also inflict other forms of harm besides pain–such as mutilating a person’s body so that they no longer have legs and can’t walk any more–but then it would seem to involve something besides the torture itself, such as being an act of torture and mutilation or torture by mutilation. The mutilation would be sinful in itself, even if it were made totally painless and thus not a torture from the perspective of immediate pain.)

I think I’m pretty satisfied (at the moment) that the thing that makes torture wrong is that it involves inflicting more pain than is warranted in a situation. So I think we’ve found a necessary condition for something to be torture. Torture has to involve inflicting more pain than is warranted.

But is this a sufficient condition?

Here someone might propose additional conditions that are needed for torture that have nothing to do with pain. For example, someone might propose that the torture has to be inflicted on another person. In other words, you can’t torture yourself. You might masochistically hurt yourself, but it wouldn’t be torture. Others might say no, you can torture yourself, and when you do so to get some kind of thrill out of it, it’s a specific kind of torture known as masochism.

I think that this is a matter that we can leave open as it isn’t really involved in the question that is motivating the present torture debate (i.e., the War on Terror).

Others might say that another condition that needs to be present is that you aren’t inflicting pain for the purposes of helping the person. In the tracheotomy example and the battlefield amputation example, the pain is inflicted as part of helping somebody, and you might say that this disqualifies it as being torture.

I would be skeptical of making this addition to the definition, because it seems to me that a lot of what we have historically called torture has been viewed as helping the person being tortured–e.g., making a heretic confess so that he can break with his heresy and be reconciled with God or "re-educating" a person with "politically incorrect" views so that he can be a "productive member of society" (the Commies were big on that one–still are in China and North Korea).

Someone might propose that the law of double-effect might be brought in here, such that something counts as torture if the pain is inflicted as an end or a means but not if it is a side-effect. I’d buy that something is torture if it is inflicting pain as an end–that kind of pain would always be disproportionate since pain is not a legitimate moral end (i.e., something to be pursued for its own sake), but it strikes me that pain can be a legitimate means, as when fear of punishment is used to keep people from breaking the law.

Some might want us to say that torture has to be carried out by the government, and we often think of it this way, but don’t we also say that a murderer can torture his victim before killing him?

At present I find myself unable to think of plausible additional criteria that seem necessary for us to have torture, and so I am inclined to say that, morally speaking, torture consists in the infliction of disproportionate amounts of pain.

This leads to some unusual conclusions in a few cases. For example, suppose that a doctor is performing an emergency tracheotomy on a choking victim and, in the process of doing so, he deliberately inflicts more pain than is necessary on the patient out of some sadistic desire. In this case our definition would say that he tortured the patient to the extent the pain was excessive, and that’s a little odd, but not outside the realm of what many people might find an acceptable use of language.

What we have been doing so far is exploring torture largely within Parameter 1, or trying to develop a definition of torture that allows us to identify the moral evil that is found in the acts that our commonsense understanding classifies as torture. But what about Parameter 2–that our definition needs to pick out something intrinsically evil? Does the proposal on the table do that?

Well, to deliberately inflict a disproportionate amount of pain on someone is by definition unjust, and it is intrinsically immoral to act unjustly, so it would seem that there is a sense in which we can say that inflicting disproportionate pain is intrinsically evil. It’s not exactly a standard way of talking in moral theology, but I suspect that it would satisfy the Magisterium since it allows us to say that you can never torture people.

One might express the intrinsic evil of torture this way: In evaluating the morality of an act, Catholic moral theology looks at its object, the intention of the person performing it, and the circumstances in which it is performed (including the consequences of the act). For more on this, see CCC 1750ff.

The object is "the matter of a human act" (CCC 1751; e.g., in the case of an abortion, the object or matter of the act is the killing of an unborn baby). The intent is what the person performing the act was hoping to achieve by doing it (see CCC 1753; e.g., in the case of an abortion the abortionist may have performed it in order to help the young mother lead a good life). The circumstances reflect everything else about the situation, including the consequences of the act (CCC 1754; e.g., in the case of the abortion, perhaps the abortionist knew and was friends with the young woman, giving him a special reason to want to help her lead a good life).

In order for an act to be morally good, it must have a good object, a good intention, and be done with respect to good circumstances. If it is lacking in one of these–that is, if it has an evil object, is done with an evil intent, or is done in evil circumstances then it is an evil act (CCC 1755).

A distinction can be drawn between those acts that are intrinsically immoral and those that are extrinsically immoral. If the object of an act is evil then the act itself is immoral, regardless of the intent of the person performing it or the circumstances in which it is performed (CCC 1755-1756). It is called "intrinsically" evil because the core of the act itself–its object or matter–is evil. On the other hand, if the object of the act itself is good, it can nevertheless be rendered evil if the intent of the person performing it is evil or if the circumstances in which it is performed are evil. In these cases the act is said to be "extrinsically" evil since it is not the act itself (the object or matter of the act) that is evil but things connected with the act (the intent or circumstances) that are evil.

Torture is intrinsically evil because it is the infliction of disproportionate pain on a subject. It is not intrinsically evil to inflict pain on a subject. If it were then we could not do emergency surgeries without anesthetic or punish children or punish criminals. But pain is not an intrinsic goal in its own right. Pain is a physical evil and, as an evil, it is something that is in itself to be avoided per the basic moral axiom of "Do good and avoid evil." It is thus out of keeping with human dignity to inflict a physical evil on another person if there is not a justifying reason for it. To inflict disproportionate pain on someone is thus to inflict a physical evil on them when there is not a justifying (or adequately justifying) reason. In such a circumstance, the person’s dignity as a human being is not respected, and the person is being treated as an object (something on which pain can be inflicted without a fully justifying reason) rather than as a subject (someone on which pain can be inflicted only with a fully justifying reason).

The infliction of a disproportionate amount of pain is thus always wrong. It does not matter if you had a good intention (e.g., "I was trying to save human lives"). The infliction of too much pain (more pain than was necessary) is out of keeping with the dignity of the person and treats him as an object rather than a subject. It similarly does not matter what the circumstances were (e.g., "There was a ticking time bomb and we only had a few minutes before it went off"). If you used too much pain then you strayed into treating the person as an object rather than a subject and did not respect his human dignity, which requires that physical evils like pain not be inflicted on him except when there is a fully justifying cause.

In concrete situations, we must of course take full account of the intent and circumstances in assessing a person’s subjective culpability for an act (e.g., the person may have misestimated the amount of pain that was proportional), but this does not change the fact that the act of inflicting disproportionate pain is objectively wrong and thus intrinsically and objectively sinful.

Torture thus emerges as something that is intrinsically and objectively wrong the same way that taking too much of a person’s food if you are starving and can’t pay and he has plenty is wrong (the sin of theft). The object of an act of torture or theft is wrong, and so these acts are objectively wrong, making them intrinsically evil per the discussion above.

Having said this, I should point out that I am not wedded to this definition. In my mind, it’s a tentative one, and I would be perfectly happy to entertain proposals for different sets of necessary and sufficient conditions if someone thinks they have a more satisfying definition.

Some might be disappointed that the definition I have proposed does not automatically classify certain physical acts as torture but allows them to be or not be torture based on the situation.

Take waterboarding as an example. I would say that waterboarding is torture if it is being used to get a person to confess to a crime (it is not proportionate to that end since it will promote false confessions). I would also say that it is torture if it is being used to get information out of a terrorist that could be gotten through traditional, less painful interrogation means (it is not proportionate to the end since there are better means available). I would not say that it is torture if it is being used in a ticking time bomb scenario and there is no other, less painful way to save lives (it is proportionate since there is not a better solution). And I would not say that it is torture if it is being used to train our own people how to resist waterboarding if it is used on them (this is apparently something we do, and it is proportionate on the understanding that there is no better way to help people learn to resist waterboarding).

I find it hard to think of particular physical acts that automatically count as torture irregardless of the circumstances. Even cutting off parts of a person’s body is not torture if you’re doing it to prevent them from dying of gangrene and there is no anesthetic available. But if the pain involved in that physical act is not automatically torture then I don’t know what would be. Indeed, I don’t know how to establish a maximum amount of pain that can be inflicted, even if it is for purposes of saving someone’s life.

The only amount I can think of is one that would permanently damage the person in some way, and then we’re talking about some kind of physical or mental mutilation rather than torture itself–and even that might not always be immoral since the Catechism acknowledges that mutilations can be legitimate for therapeutic reasons. "Okay, maybe removing your leg on the battlefield left you mentally ‘scarred,’ but at least you’re alive, and you can live with the scars," I could see someone arguing.

It also strikes me that adopting the kind of general moral definition that I have proposed may be a good thing in that it lets us get past a semantic chokepoint in the discussion: Instead of worrying about whether or not something counts as torture, we can start figuring out whether particular acts are or are not moral. If the pain involved in them is disproportionate then they are immoral and therefore torture. If the pain involved in them is not disproportionate then they’re not immoral and not torture.

Comments have been disabled for this post.
Sort: Newest | Oldest

JIMMY AKIN IS A TERRIBLE PERSON!
I had a terribly interesting evening last night when I happened to learn just how awful a person Jimmy Akin really was.
I encountered the following comments concerning Jimmy Akin in Mark Shea’s blog:
At this juncture, it is customary to complain about my unfairness and mischaracterization of the position of people like Jeff and the Coalition for Fog. "We're *not* defending torture!" goes the protest. We are defending, er, aggressive interrogation. Totally different! Maybe, however, in this case what is being defended are acts which *would* be called torture if the circumstances were not desperate. For that is precisely what Jimmy argues for when he says, "I would not say that it [waterboarding] is torture if it is being used in a ticking time bomb scenario and there is no other, less painful way to save lives (it is proportionate since there is not a better solution)."
The logic of the argument is entirely understandable and even emotionally appealing. Some weirdo has kidnapped your kid and buried him alive in a box. He won't talk. Why not use torture to make him talk? You can hardly fault the parent who would beat the living daylights out of the guy. As a parent myself, I am not immune to the persuasiveness of such arguments.
Nonetheless, I agree with Zippy that Jimmy's argument is a bad one, both for Zippy's reasons and reasons of my own. If an act is intrinsically evil, then it does not become proportional and just when circumstances change.

Okay, from this, had I not read Jimmy’s entire post on his website, by the way he’s painted here, that Jimmy is actually for the torture of terrorists, but the other following comments happen to paint an even darker picture of him:
Another problem with Jimmy's argument is that it seems to me to be extremely subjective. How, precisely, is proportionalism to be determined? If it's proportional to torture at all, then how do you measure the proportion? Waterboarding if 100 lives are at stake? Pliers to the testicles for 200? Blowtorch to the eyes for 1000? If a city is endangered, then in what sense can we be "proportional"? How can the suffering of one man *ever* match the suffering of a million? And since those millions have families, why not threaten the family of the suspect? Indeed, why stop with waterboarding when you can gouge eyes, castrate and pull fingernails and not even come close to the suffering your (assumed) terrorist will inflict (assuming he knows something, which you are torturing him to discover). Of course, if it turns out your suspect knows nothing, then what? It turns out you have committed an intrinsically immoral act against an innocent man and you could well go to hell for it.

And yet, here in cyberspace, no small effort, ranging from the Coalition for Fog, to Against the Grain, to (now) Jimmy's blog has been put into figuring out some way to redefine it so that it's not torture, or shout down those who oppose it as "Pharisees" or otherwise figure out a way to overlook the bleedin' obvious in favor of the highly abstract and hypothetical. Virtually *no* effort has gone in to pursuing the question, "How do we treat prisoners humanely while still getting the intelligence we need?".

So, here, it seems that Jimmy Akin is nothing more than a heartless hypocrite who lives to Catholic morals when it suits him, but, under certain desperate circumstances, Jimmy’s the kind of horrible person who would actually abandon his morals, his very Catholic identity – no wait, he’s more sinister than that! – Jimmy would redefine Catholicism itself in order to weave arguments that would actually suit his vengeful purpose in such circumstances!
What’s interesting to note is that my post happen to come up as well:
Of course, Zippy couldn't care less that even if the hundreds of innocent victims of the 9/11 attacks could have been saved by the simple capture and rigid interrogation of terrorist(s) prior to the time of the attacks, the life of that terrorist is far more precious than those innocent people and shouldn't even undergo a smidgen of psychological interrogation tactics since even these are considered "torture".
See, it's so easy when folks can simply reflect such issues in an ivory tower, with an "holier-than-thou" attitude, looking down from an almighty throne on those who should even dare cross what they've declared to be the moral threshold, without even being in the actual trenches.
Yet, there are those of us who suffered greatly from the tragic events of 9/11 and have, in fact, lost people close to us.
To actually witness folks giving such "preferred" treatment to terrorists, of all things (even ordinary criminals aren't treated with such esteem and have to undergo a barrage of even the most rigid psychological tests), even at the cost of innocent lives, is just too repulsive.
Not to wish any harm on such folks, but it seems that the only way they could ever feel the pain of the tragic events of 9/11, is to suffer personal lost themselves. It's sometimes about walking in someone else's shoes until they come to terms with the other perspective.
In point of cool, rational fact much of this outburst has nothing to do with anything Zippy has ever said, or anything any opponent of torture has said. It has nothing to do with the reality of torture opponents. It has to do with pain and fear--pain and fear I readily acknowledge. But the fact remains, torture would not have stopped 9/11, except on "24". Zippy is not the heartless bastard this commenter declares and he certainly does not think a terrorist's life is *more* precious than an innocent man's. He simply does not think a terrorist's life is worthless. And he emphatically does not think Caesar will keep us safe by being granted the power to commit intrinsically immoral acts against those Caesar deems to be enemies. In this, at the end of the day, he has Veritatis Splendor to back him up

From what’s said here, I am made to appear as if I, myself, actually endorse torture – after all, I did know people who died on 9/11, and, therefore, I, myself, must be harboring some vengeful feelings toward such people! Yet, in fact, in much of the things I’ve said in other posts, I have made it clear that I do not endorse the actual torture of these terrorists, but that it *seemed* to me that there are those who would not even have these people go through even the same rigid interrogation tactics common criminals undergo since even this is considered "TORTURE" in their eyes – a point that would've been reached by readers actually interested in the truth had it not just been the *isolated* quote above.
Although, what had been said?
...*torture* would not have stopped 9/11, except on "24".
If there was any misunderstanding on my part, wouldn’t Christian charity have been for them to simply clarify my misunderstanding? Further, perhaps to even clarify Jimmy’s misunderstanding, if there was actually any on his part as well? Or perhaps even actually dialogue with Jimmy should there even be (God forbid!) a misunderstanding on *their* part, too!
Instead, what was done was folks (fellow Catholics-those who actually profess such high Catholic ideals!) actually engaged in vicious back-stabbing rather than confront their assumed opponents and deal with this misunderstanding.
I would've expected such devoted Catholics to have done what Christian charity would have called for in this case!
Was there perhaps some trace of intellectual pride and the "high and mighty ways" on their end that may have played a part?
It is said in the Prayer of St. Francis:
"O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as *to understand*..."
But, I guess that's all thrown out the window should such a noble cause arise!
Interestingly enough, isn't that what's being implied here about Jimmy? That he would actually throw out his Catholic morals for the *noble cause* of saving the lives of innocents from terrorists?
Though, those who actually know the full story, this is not the case at all!
SUMMARY:
Love Thy Enemies except if they are fellow Catholics and appear to oppose you.
Treat terrorists with human dignity because they’re in the image of God, but I guess this doesn’t apply to fellow Catholics.
Condemning innocent men? Well, suspected terrorists may end up being innocent people certainly, but those suspected to be against you, no way! In fact, when duty calls for it, engage in character assassinations by all means!
So, thank you Mark Shea et al, for confirming what some may have suspected all along, that this “Love Thy Enemies” routine might end up being all an act to flaunt that “Holier-than-Thou” attitude that some feel the need to pull over their fellow Catholics in such an underhanded way!
Could there be an ulterior political motive in this as well?
FOLLOW-UP:
I would not have gone ahead and posted the preceding message, but, obviously, Jimmy being the stand-up person that he is, I don’t think he would have retaliated the least on his blog since he actually *lives out* his Catholic beliefs rather than merely *leave it to words*.
I wished that in some cases, I could be the same kind of person, but I am still a “work-in-progress” (so-to-speak), entirely fallible and but human and can only rely on God’s mercy and goodness. In the end, I can only pray he guides me to do the right thing in life and that I can ultimately live out the Catholic Faith in all aspects of life.

Well, again, "forcing" would be the wrong word, IMO.

Thanks, Tim J.
I agree with much of the things you've said.
It's just that there would be those individuals out there who would say that the very fact that this involves the conditioning of the will that this is actually a breaking of the will since it's forcing people to do what they would otherwise not do.

Esau -
I would argue that the aim of both licit punishment and discipline would be to affect the will, or form the will, but not to break the will.

punishment
1 : the act of punishing
2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3 : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment
Also, it goes without saying that it serves to overpower someone's free will like in the case of the incarceration of criminals, etc., in that they may learn not to misuse it and enforce 'correction' on the individual's behaviour.
That's not to say that it's successful.
To say this is actually torture would classify what we do to criminals in the legal system as being such as well.

In fact, it is in the removal of free will - the taking away of the ability to make a free choice - that we destroy the image of God in that person... truly treating them as an object.
The more I think about it, the more I believe that fungible goods have little to do with it.
So, discipline or punishment could turn into torture, as well, with compliance being the good sought.
This would apply just as well to brainwashing and inquisition-type actions ("we're doing this for your own good").
You cannot break someone's will for their own good.

"The infliction of suffering on another, with the object of overpowering his/her free will."
Tim J.,
Wouldn't "punishment" fall under this definition as well?

Yeah, you may be right. I threw in the "fungible goods" part just to show Zippy I have been listening, and because I like to say "fungible".
Also, "intentional" isn't really necessary, either... that's a given.
That leaves something like;
"The infliction of suffering on another, with the object of overpowering his/her free will."

Tim,
I would eliminate "unjust" and "in the pursuit of fungible goods" from your definition. The fungible business is, so far as I can gather, a means of telling what a person's intention actually is in a given case, rather than a part of the intention itself. And including "unjust" turns the definition into a tautology.

"The intentional infliction of unjust suffering on another, with the object of overpowering the free will of the subject in the pursuit of fungible goods."

Actually, the intent to "break the will" of the subject works very well to define torture, because if the captor had in his mind "I will break this subject's will to get what I'm after, no matter what it takes" he will be guilty of the sin of torture the moment he goes beyond inflicting what might otherwise be a just level of pain (like might be applied by a questioner who did not have the intent to torture).
If he did not inflict any serious level of pain (like if the subject just gave up the moment he was grabbed by the collar and pushed against the wall), he would still be guilty of a lesser sin, but not the intrinsic evil of torture. Just as the sin of theft requires grave matter... leaving the bank with one of their ballpoints would not be a mortal sin. Leaving the bank with a bag of cash WOULD be.
Inflicting mild suffering on a subject - even if one had the original intention to torture - would not equal torture, but would still be a sin.

"The monkey wrench in it is that with (e.g.) purely sadistic torture the perp may not even care what goes on with the will of the victim."
Well, that would certainly be an intrinsic evil, but maybe we wouldn't give it the name of "torture", but plain sadism.
There certainly needs to be two different terms to differentiate these two distinct acts. It actually confuses things to referr to both by the same word, and since "sadism" works, I would add sadism to the list of intrinsic evils.

Yes Esau, and I humbly request that you stop beating your wife.
But I love it though since it befits the very topic of torture!

I requested that you dispense with all the clinton-like transgiversation ...
Yes Esau, and I humbly request that you stop beating your wife.

Yes Esau. Your comparison of my "maneuvering" to Clinton was a hoot, and definitely added to the credibiity of your own arguments.
There you go again. Did it even dawn on you that all I wanted from you was a straight answer, which is the very reason why I requested that you dispense with all the clinton-like transgiversation or was that too much to ask of the all-mighty?
(Now, that is ad hominem, if you like!)

I would add to Zippy's (and my own) definition that the interior disposition to torture has as it's object the breaking of the will of the subject - to remove or negate his/her free will by the infliction of suffering.
This is obviously a good thought, because lots of smart people keep coming up with it. The monkey wrench in it is that with (e.g.) purely sadistic torture the perp may not even care what goes on with the will of the victim. I would think that torture taken to the point where the perp doesn't even care if the victim has a will would be even worse than torture with the intention of coercing the will.

Yes Esau. Your comparison of my "maneuvering" to Clinton was a hoot, and definitely added to the credibiity of your own arguments.

Zippy,
Further to my comment above, please take notice of my dialogue with Josiah.
Even Josiah did not respond to my posts to him in the emotional manner as you did, though he very well could have.

C matt -
The problem is that any definition of torture will necessarily involve describing what torture "looks like" as well as the interior disposition that makes it torture.
I am not arguing that a little torture is okay. I am arguing that it is possible to inflict pain in the pursuit of information without treating the person as SOLELY an object or a means to an end, and without taking away their human dignity or free will.
In other words, I think that the "infliction of suffering in the pursuit of fungible goods" is an inadequate definition of torture, because this action can be done without the interior disposition to torture.
I would add to Zippy's (and my own) definition that the interior disposition to torture has as it's object the breaking of the will of the subject - to remove or negate his/her free will by the infliction of suffering.
Certain kinds of suffering (imprisonment) do not approach the threshold of removing the subject's free will. Others (such as waterboarding) are designed to cause panic or complete despair (removing free will) in the pursuit of some fungible commodity.
What characterizes torture (IMO)is the determination by the torturer to retrieve this "fungible commodity" even at the cost of breaking the subject's will. Torture is open-ended, without theoretical limits of either time or the level of pain inflicted. Coercive interrogation in the pursuit of information can be done without the interior disposition to torture, and by the proportional (just) application of pain.
In my view, it is this intention to break the subject's will which demonstrates that the captor is treating the subject SOLELY as an object - as ONLY a means to an end.
This does make torture harder to spot (because it is dependent on interior disposition), but lust can be hard to tell from a mere appreciation for beauty, too. It's all in the heart.

Also, if you were under the impression that I was emotionally engaged by Esau's ad hominem, you are quite mistaken.
Zippy,
Need I mind you that I simply described your manuevering through the various arguments as "Clinton-like" transgiversation. It wasn't even attacking you personally, merely your approach to the arguments at hand. The very fact that you responded the way you did speaks for itself.

You mean to say in a sudden struggle against an attacker, I'll have to engage first in thoughtful reflection on the criteria of double-effect prior to protecting myself and my loved ones?
Yes. Better learn to think fast (or think ahead).
What world do you live in?
Are you some rich kid living in an over-protected mommy's world where you actually have the luxury to give such thought in what you may perceive as a similar situation?
People who are not as fortunate who live in places where muggings and rape are a frequent event do not have the luxury of time to think through whether they can save the life of their attacker while saving themselves; and, mind you, they do think fast -- they know that through all their years living in such neighborhoods, in order to survive such attacks, one of the unavoidable, necessary acts is to kill their assailant.
Of course, in your eyes, they may appear to be immoral slugs, but in God's, certainly, given the situation they live in and the apparent need for this kind of self-defense in the face of such evil in their lives, I believe even God Himself would extend his mercy on these folks.

Zippy,
If I say "what you're doing is the same as what Hitler did" I've compared you to Hitler.
I do happen to think we sometimes know when a person has done something wrong, and not just in an "objective" sense. I don't think this means putting ourselves in God's place and judging the state of peoples' souls. But that's a topic for another day. For now my point is simply that if you say someone is as bad as Hitler, it's not much of a defense to say that you only meant it "objectively speaking."

You mean to say in a sudden struggle against an attacker, I'll have to engage first in thoughtful reflection on the criteria of double-effect prior to protecting myself and my loved ones?
Yes. Better learn to think fast (or think ahead).

I would maintain that torture - instrinsically evil because it objectifies a human being - consists of the unjust infliction of pain.
The just use of pain would take into account the fact that the person is a human being, and would NOT therefore treat the person as SOLELY an object. Pain which is irresistable, or which is designed to negate human will and freedom DOES treat the person as a mere object, and would therefore be torture.
It is possible to aggressively interrogate a person - even with the infliction of proportionate pain (mental, emotional or physical) while remembering and maintaining his/her dignity as a human being
Very close, Tim J. But I think you stray with the last paragraph. If you have the interior disposition to use the person as a means to an end, then no amount of use of "proportionate pain" will change that disposition. That is the part that many people are missing. Just like if I have the interior disposition to use another as an object for my sexual gratification (lust) I can't rely on some lesser proportionate physical act (eg, just look but don't touch) to make it ok.

This doesn't change the fact that homicide rightly so-called is intrinsically evil and cannot be committed for any reason. But that fact doesn't allow us to define all killing as homicide.
Likewise, we can say that torture is always wrong. But in that case not all causing pain is torture.
Right - but the difference between homicide and self-defense is not a proportional difference in the act - its not that homicide is killing a human being by more painful means and self-defense is killing them by less painful means. Likewise, the difference between torture and not-torture cannot be proportional - eg, disporportionate infliction of pain.

The basic problem with Jimmy's definition is that it describes a sin different from torture - the disproportionate infliction of pain is what causes licit punishment to become illicit punishment. What he is describing is the sin of illicit punishment because punishment itself can be licit (i.e., not an intrinsic or categorical evil) but can become illicit when disproportionate. Torture, on the other hand, if Jimmy agrees it is an intrinsic evil, cannot be made licit by proportionality because intrinsic or categorical evils cannot be made licit by proportionality (i.e., adultery is not "disproportionately" engaging in sexual relations with someone not your spouse). Either the definition of torture must not allow for "proportionate" engagement in the act, or Jimmy must admit that torture is not an intrinsic evil. Intrinsic evil and proportionate (or disproportionate) are mutually exclusive concepts.

it is dicing things pretty fine to say that we might possibly cane a prisoner licitly to punish him for withholding information that he has a moral obligation to provide, but that we may not cane a prisoner in order to get information.
In a sense it is a fine distinction, but a critical one. It is the difference between punishment and torture.

In the past you've defended your comparisons of certain people to pro-aborts...
Stop right there, son. I have compared, and continue to compare, the actions and arguments of torture apologists to the actions and arguments of pro-aborts. I know you argue that I really should be putting myself in God's place and judging the state of their souls, but no, Josiah, I won't play.
And yeah, denying that torture is intrinsically evil is every bit as invalid as denying that abortion is intrinsically evil.
From your reaction to having your words called "Clinton-like" I hope you can see the shortcomings of this view.
Why is that? Do you think I've misjudged the objective morality of the actions of the former Sodomite-In-Chief?
Also, if you were under the impression that I was emotionally engaged by Esau's ad hominem, you are quite mistaken.

Zippy,
In the past you've defended your comparisons of certain people to pro-aborts by saying that you were only talking about their actions and not about any interior disposition. You further suggested that if people were upset at the comparison, it might be because *they* were improperly judging pro-aborts.
From your reaction to having your words called "Clinton-like" I hope you can see the shortcomings of this view.

...why did you give a wrong answer?
I didn't give the wrong answer, as far as I can tell. They are obviously different acts. And they aren't different only in their consequences: stopping someone from actively killing others is clearly a different act from threatening someone to get him to cough up information. I am sure people exist who have such badly disordered perceptions that they are incapable of immediately seeing that there is a difference; but I doubt that reasoned argument is what such people need as a corrective.

Zippy,
If "[t]he difference between (1) attempting to stop a person from actually detonating a bomb, and (2) killing a person who won't talk, is indeed extremely, extraodrinarily, blindingly, mind-numbingly obvious," so obvious that "a child just past the age of reason" could see it, why did you give a wrong answer? And why, after spending so much time arguing against consequentialism, did you make your answer turn on the *consequences* of the two courses of action?
There's a difference between the blindingly obvious and the first thing that pops into your head.

<> ... but psychological domination is.

J.R.,
"Massive infliction of pain for the sake of punishing someone" may be evil, but it would not fit my definiton of torture. I am trying to find (as we all are) the heart of what the sin of torture is, and I would suggest that torture in its essence is not merely the infliction of disproportionate pain. The element of dominating another person via pain (or fear or humiliation) is key to what we recognize as torture.
As to your other point, that sadists may delight in torturing victims, I would suggest that this delight stems from the domination that the torture produces. Whether that domination is used for political gain, saving lives, or getting your sadistic jollies is not central to what makes the act "torture".

Kevin,
The problem with that definition is that it excludes massive infliction of pain for the sake of punishing someone or out of some sick pleasure in causeing pain in others (e.g. the murderer who tortures his victim first). In such cases the pain is inflicted but not for the sake of psycological domination.
I'll agree that what you describe may well be intrinsically evil, as well as what has been proposed earlier; sexual humiliation and causing pain to the point of complete despair. All three seem to disregard the respect due to all human beings because of their inherent human dignity.

The essence of torture seems to be this: the use of pain, fear, or humiliation to achieve a psychological domination over your victim. This psycological domination is of a sadistic sort and robs the victim of his freedom and dignity.
Thus, using a tazer on a violent criminal to protect the innocent is not torture. Using a tazer over and over again on a prisoner to get him to confess or to get your own sick pleasure from it is torture, as this act would seek to achieve a psychological dominaton over him and reduce him to a whimpering wretch.
Spanking a child to teach him not to hit his sister is not torture. Spanking a child because he looked at you funny or showed a spark of independence might be a kind of torture, as it seeks to establish a parental reign of terror and to achieve a psychological domination.
This definition would avoid the problems Zippy pointed out of proportionality. It would focus on the sadistic control of another, which is clearly wrong for whatever reason or in whatever circumstances.

Waterboarding from the getgo implies on the spot guessing on whether the "application" has gone far enough.
Interesting thought. Perhaps another thing about licit punishment is that we can envision in our minds ahead of time just what we will do, in its entiriety, to punish the guilty party. If what we are doing is open ended, it isn't punishment. I'll have to think on that one some more.

I finally understand your position and most importantly the reasoning behind it. I'm still unsure whether it is correct and I am trying to sort through some other thoughts, but at least I finally get you.
Now you are in the same boat as me: you understand my position, but aren't entirely sure it is correct. :-)
I came by my approach in Sherlock fashion. I think I have a pretty good idea of what kinds of answers can't be right, so I tried to come up with one that doesn't fall to any of the (IMO fatal) criticisms directed at other approaches. It should be emphasized that there is a difference between knowing what things cannot be the case and knowing what is the case. I don't know that my understanding precisely is the case, but I do know that Jimmy's attempt at a definition (which he himself put forth only as tentative, and again is pretty much exactly what I came up with myself several months ago having spent a -lot- of metacarpal cycles discussing this over the past year or so) cannot be right.
Concerning your position (in your summary post) you are careful to check the morality of our actions (the corporal punishment) by evaluating whether or not we cease the punishment after we get the equivalently useful information. On the surface that seems like a good test, but in reality if we continued the corporal punishment indefinitely, wouldn't that be immoral? It seems more in keeping with human dignity to alter the punishment (incarceration for a period of time). In fact couldn't we consider the punishment to be X for Y time or until Z is satisfied?
Sorry for quoting this whole section of your post, but I've got to break up my answer to address some distinct issues.
First, I've tried to be careful to consistently qualify that the test itself is a heuristic test, not a principle. It isn't that if we fail to keep on punishing the perp it follows that we have definitely done wrong. We might stop punishing the perp for the sake of mercy, for example. But if we would be disposed to stop "punishing" him for no other reason than that we got the information we wanted from elsewhere (say we found and defused the ticking bomb via some other means), and we want to free up our "punishing" resources to get some other useful commodity elsewhere or from some other person, then we weren't really punishing him. Punishment is first and foremost directed at the correction of the person, not the extraction of some useful commodity, even if the person does in fact have a duty to produce that commodity. Discipline likewise is directed at the person: nobody else can stop throwing feces at the guards; the recalcitrant prisoner has to stop (or be stopped from) doing it himself.
Second, punishment isn't intrinsically evil but it can still be evil by being disproportionate, etc. Just because a category of act isn't intrinsically evil it doesn't follow that every actual instance of an act in that category is necessarily licit.
Third, I think you are right that regular repeated corporal punishment in perpetuity for refusing to fulfill a positive duty probably always fails on proportionate grounds in any actual circumstances anyone will ever encounter. His punishment might end prematurely if he recants and fulfills his duty, because he is being punished precisely for failing to fulfill his duty. But perpetual corporal punishment doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would ever pass a prudential test.
Fourth, information and money are not the only fungible commodities out there, though they are commonly sought ones. The thrill a sadistic torturer feels is also a fungible commodity: it has nothing really to do with the victim as the unique person he is Imago Dei. In a sadistic punishment - importantly, even when the person punished actually does deserve what is done to him - it literally isn't possible for us to do that sort of thing to him while maintaining within ourselves a purity of motive about his teleological good, let alone to be choosing a good or at least morally neutral act. The image of a Medieval torturer engaging in his craft as a sad necessity, wherein he genuinely loves each victim as he does to each victim what is necessary, is simply a false image of human nature. It may be that the kid really does deserve to be caned, but we are incapable of caning him without, in the object of our act, choosing to treat him as nothing but a means to satisfy our conscupiscient desires (hatred, desire for vengeance, etc).
Finally, I think it is important not to lose sight of Mark Shea's key point in all this: the sort of discussion we are having is very, very far removed from the practical realities of the wickedness being perpetrated in our names. There is a time and a place for discussing salpingectomy, salpingotomy, and the fact that properly understood there is no "life of the mother" exception to the absolute prohibition of abortion. But that isn't really our mainstream problem when addressing the fact that the CIA has tortured and rendered to torture many captives in the War on Terror, nor when addressing the abomination of Planned Parenthood.

So intending to kill someone as the only feasible means of self-defense is immoral?
Makes a ton of sense to me. The key word is "intending". You can point the gun at his chest and fire away knowing theres not a chance of himsurviving if this is the only way you can see to stop him (no this doesn't imply stopping to call the local pastor or posting a question to Jimmy.) On the other hand you can't decide, "I want him dead" and use a leathal means simply because you want him dead.

"disproportionate"..."waterboarding"...The difference between waterboarding and applying the cane is that the pain in the former is the treat of death re-applied again and again. The latter, while it could be misapplied to cause death, is clearly meant to be limited.
What about the word, "Unjust" here. Punishing a prisoner implies a judicial athority. Waterboarding from the getgo implies on the spot guessing on whether the "application" has gone far enough

Sorry, Zippy, I couldn't get that link to work (the plea bargain thing).
I also think that I am getting close to understanding your position, but as I said in Mark's combox, it is dicing things pretty fine to say that we might possibly cane a prisoner licitly to punish him for withholding information that he has a moral obligation to provide, but that we may not cane a prisoner in order to get information.
I truly see the difference, but many would not, and might even accuse YOU of playing word games.
I also think it might be possible to inflict pain in order to get information without treating the prisoner SOLELY as an object, and while maintaining his/her human dignity. I also believe this can involve taking degrees of inflicted pain into account (proportionality).
To inflict a level of pain that is irresistable, or to bring a person to the point of panic or despair would be contrary to human dignity, and would therefore be torture. Waterboarding, for instance.

Thanks Zippy, that last comment and your summary post was a big A-HA moment for me. I finally understand your position and most importantly the reasoning behind it. I'm still unsure whether it is correct and I am trying to sort through some other thoughts, but at least I finally get you. You are to be commended on your patience with those of us who either disagree or fail to see the matter as you do.
Concerning your position (in your summary post) you are careful to check the morality of our actions (the corporal punishment) by evaluating whether or not we cease the punishment after we get the equivalently useful information. On the surface that seems like a good test, but in reality if we continued the corporal punishment indefinitely, wouldn't that be immoral? It seems more in keeping with human dignity to alter the punishment (incarceration for a period of time). In fact couldn't we consider the punishment to be X for Y time or until Z is satisfied?

In fact, if you follow my argument closely, you will see that I am not even saying that you can't intentionally inflict pain on a helpless prisoner in order to get information, presuming that he has a legitimate duty to disclose the information in question. Even that is possibly licit in my view, if the "get information" objective is incidental to carrying out a licit punishment for failing to do his duty. Have you had the opportunity to read what I wrote about plea-bargaining in the summary post I linked to?

So, Zippy, what you appear to be saying is, no, we can't offer a terror suspect money in exchange for information because that would be treating him as an information vending machine (a meat robot), rather than a human being.
No, I am not saying that, any more than I am saying that you can't offer the paperboy money for a newspaper.

But, Tim, what if the only way to stop the attacker is to kill him?
That's fine. The intent is to stop him even if you know he might or will definitely die. However, if non-lethal means will accomplish the same objective you are obligated to do that. It may seem like hair-splitting and I suppose it is in a way, but our will always factors into morality.

Your intent must be to stop the attacker, not kill him/her.
But, Tim, what if the only way to stop the attacker is to kill him?

"Self-defense, as I said, can be licit under the principle of double-effect, as long as you don't intend the death of the attacker and the other criteria are also met."
That's right, as far as I know. Your intent must be to stop the attacker, not kill him/her.

So intending to kill someone as the only feasible means of self-defense is immoral?
I've tried asking that myself.
Good luck trying to find an answer.

So intending to kill someone as the only feasible means of self-defense is immoral?

We must cultivate virtue so that in a pinch, virtue rather than vice is what we fall back upon.
Okay, this one, I agree with, Zippy.
Especially in the world we so live in today and the horrible habits that have become a natural and acceptable characteristic of folks and what the next generation has been fed on.
However...
By the way, could you answer Tim J's question below -- I'm just curious of what your answer to it might be:
I posted on an even more benign question not long ago.
So, Zippy, what you appear to be saying is, no, we can't offer a terror suspect money in exchange for information because that would be treating him as an information vending machine (a meat robot), rather than a human being.
Wow. Could it not be argued that the object of that action is not to buy information, but to ransom the lives of human beings? The information is incidental, it is not something sought for its own sake. Are the lives of human beings a fungible commodity?

Previous post:

Next post: