"Thank God for somebody who reflects the right spirit..."
AMEN!
If one is starting by asking "How many times do I HAVE to attend mass at Christmas?" they are looking at the whole thing backward.

I'd just like to point out that in the U.S. we should be grateful that we have the OPPORTUNITY to attend Mass and not have restrictions as in some countries or in remote areas where they are lucky to see a priest at all. My ex-husband never forbid me to attend Mass; however, he made things at home VERY difficult for me whenever I did. Please, please, be grateful that you CAN attend Mass and don't quibble about if you HAVE to attend. Thank you for letting me put my two cents in! :-)
Thank God for somebody who reflects the right spirit in which we should all be so grateful to have the opportunity to attend Mass at all and receive the benefits of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as intended by Our Lord and Saviour!
I can recall the many stories of oppressed Catholics be they those Catholics that lived in the Middle East or those in the former Soviet states where even an attempt to attend the Mass meant a life or death situation. Yet, they proceeded in their lives to attend Mass in spite of these hardships and risk to life!

I'd just like to point out that in the U.S. we should be grateful that we have the OPPORTUNITY to attend Mass and not have restrictions as in some countries or in remote areas where they are lucky to see a priest at all. My ex-husband never forbid me to attend Mass; however, he made things at home VERY difficult for me whenever I did. Please, please, be grateful that you CAN attend Mass and don't quibble about if you HAVE to attend. Thank you for letting me put my two cents in! :-)

A priest may not offer a single Mass, having collected multiple stipends for it, and claim that he has fulfilled his obligation to the donors.
Actually, the guilt is based on conscience there.
One Mass has an infinite value. Ergo an infinite amount intentions maybe placed on it.
But unfourtunately, what priest thinks about that,
so it is more probabable he is doing it out of bad spririt.

David,
Jared was talking to the person who posted right before you. They didn't type anything, and they posted anonymously. Since there was no reason for you to have put your post in italics, Jared came to the commonsense conclusion (possibly based on experience) that the anonymous poster opened an italics tag, which makes everything after that show up in italics until someone (in this case Jared) closed the tag off. It's one of those pointless juvenile things to do.

Jared,
I'm not "anonymous" and I have no idea why my comments were italicized.

Stop with the italics already, anonymous.

Bill and Mary Kay,
I think it's a fair point that Saturday Masses make available the Mass for people who work in occupations like medicine, criminal justice, and fire fighting. But to be honest, as with fasting ruling out many people receiving communion as much, I'm not sure it wouldn't be worth the sacrifice. It's not that I don't want you two to go to Mass every Sunday; it's that I'm not sure the solution doesn't, in some ways, create more of a problem.

The packed Saturday masses, when I was in my youth, was what I and many other teenagers of my day used as a meeting place to tell our parents we were going to church, we stood in the back and chattered on and on, as I am sure many of the Saturday masses are still today. Then after mass the group went off and some did things like drink beer and others like me played basketball
It was only until some many years later in my late 30's did I realize the errors in my way when I learned about the faith and that I needed to participate and revere our Lord
Been reading a book written in the 1950's and it references saint after saint who stated how the devil hates so much the sacrifice of the mass and reverence towards the mass and Our Lord. And then of course no sooner did the mass get changed to the New Mass which basically accomplished all the devil had wanted as the latest statistics clearly indicate that the group of Catholics today, those that actually attend mass, some 25% actually believe in transubstantiation, as compared to 75% some 50 years ago

David, I would second what Bill says about those can't always get to Sunday Mass (I used to work in a hospital). But I have to admit that doesn't explain the packed Saturday Masses.

No, David, you don't come across as a Pharisee. You make a lot of sense, but there are good reasons for the Saturday Vigil Mass. There are those of us (like me) who work alternating shifts with rotating days off. When I am working weekends(which is most of the time), I work from 7AM to 3PM one week, and from 3PM to 11PM the next. If there were no Vigil Mass, there would be many times, when I am working the day shift, that I could not attend Sunday Mass due to my duties.

This whole conversation makes me think the Church needs to rethink both vigil masses and masses after noon. The whole scenario just makes everything ridiculously complicated.
True vigil masses like Christmas Eve and the Easter vigil are fine, but the whole Saturday evening thing is essentially a way to keep Sunday and Saturday night as, not the Lord's Day, but Golf/Football/Shopping day. It also serves as an excuse for many pastors to not have a Saturday morning mass or to hear confessions. Connected to this is the need for a eucharistic fast to be re-instituted. Yes, I know, please don't tell me there is a one hour fast right now. What that essentially means is that one can be eating and drinking right up to the time one leaves for Mass since the rule is universally understood as one hour before taking communion. If any sort of fasting rule is ever reinstituted, the evening/night mass will fall, since many people eat supper before them. True vigil masses could then have a day of fasting beforehand and make for a real feast.
But I'm sure I'm in the minority on this one and will be called a Pharisee or somesuch.

JTJ: As to #1, you are correct. As to #2, disobedience to Church discipline, absent a reasonable excuse, is certainly a sin, and could be a mortal sin if it fit the criteria for same.

Can. 1246 §1. Sunday, on which by apostolic tradition the paschal mystery is celebrated, must be observed in the universal Church as the primordial holy day of obligation. The following days must also be observed: the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension, the Body and Blood of Christ, Holy Mary the Mother of God, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, Saint Joseph, Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles, and All Saints.
§2. With the prior approval of the Apostolic See, however, the conference of bishops can suppress some of the holy days of obligation or transfer them to a Sunday.
Can. 1247 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in the Mass.
Moreover, they are to abstain from those works and aVairs which hinder the worship to be rendered to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s day, or the suitable relaxation of mind and body.
Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
§2. If participation in the eucharistic celebration becomes impossible because of the absence of a sacred minister or for another grave cause, it is strongly recommended that the faithful take part in a liturgy of the word if such a liturgy is celebrated in a parish church or other sacred place according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop or that they devote themselves to prayer for a suitable time alone, as a family, or, as the occasion permits, in groups of families.

In understanding this, note that 1247 states that the faithful must participate in the mass on holy days of obligation and Sundays. So if a feast day follows a Sunday, we would be obligated to participate in two masses. 1246§2 notes that the bishop has authority to suppress this obligation. This authority does not rest with the faithful. Similarly the laity do not have the authority to transfer the obligation from one mass to another mass they are already obligated. 1248 notes what participation in a mass is. It is not the power to transfer obligations.
This is different from a Saturday wedding. No one is obligated to attend a wedding mass. Even if the groom and bride skip out, the mass is still valid; this would assume that it was still offered, which is admittedly doubtful in such an instance.

At least there is a certain consistency here.
A priest may not offer a single Mass, having collected multiple stipends for it, and claim that he has fulfilled his obligation to the donors.
Similarly, the faithful may not attend a single Mass and claim that it fulfills both the Sunday and Christmas obligations.
This does highlight the spiritual value of each time we attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I'm a recent lurker, never posted here - and also a convert, so I may well not know what I am talking about, but Richard Mueller said:
"NOT the same as a church rule and an unclear badly written one at that is NOT dogma, is NOT necessary for salvation"
Please, I am just asking for information. Could someone clarify for me?
1) I thought Sunday Mass WAS a church rule;
2) I thought obedience to church rules of discipline - not just belief in dogmas - WAS necessary for salvation (assuming I understand this, of course; I am not talking about 'invincible ignorance.')
Isn't this so? If it is not, I guess I am just confused.
Christmas blessings to all from New Zealand!
jj

John, did you get the same old hobby horse, possibly wrapped in different paper, for Christmas?

Sparki
Wonderful post-as a recent convert you may want to try and find a traditional latin mass as there one is willing to go on every holy day, willing to stay past the 40 minute express mass, willing to kneel to receive our Lord on ones tongue, willing to hold a missal and follow along in English and Latin as our forefathers did for centuries, and willing to revere our Lord and look forward to the next mass. So much of that is missing today as you pointed out and the reason why so many Catholics have either stopped attending mass, started going to the traditional masses, or even started attending Evangelical Protestant church's where the fear of hell is real and not everyone is going to heaven
Unfortunatly in its attempt to be ecumenical and not offend anyone, the mass today is meant to be inclusive and the sermons light and feel good, hence the recent papal visit to Turkey where there was no mention of the persecuted Catholics and Christians, just more feel good rhetoric

That is a positivism argument Patrick.
One's obligation to attend mass on holy days is abundantly clear and precise. Holy days are defined. The fact that this obligation is often dispensed can create confusion.

For a couple of expert opinions that say a two-fer IS allowed (or was), try reading this discussion. It's two (web)pages, and there is also some good discussion about being charitable towards those who are looking to do the minimum.

Laws should be clear and precise. Vagueness in a requirment should be construed in favor of the person burdened, at least in our civilized* legal system.
* I know this word will start soemthing.

Sparki - sometimes we ask what our obligations are not so that we can get out of them, but to make sure we fulfill them. If I ask 'how much sugar do I have to have for these cookies?' I mean that I want to get it right so I can have good cookies. I think that's what a lot of people mean, but it does sound odd.

Ummmmm...maybe it's because I'm a convert, but I find it really, really, REALLY odd that people actually try to get out of going to Mass. I'd go every single day if I could (the whole working two jobs things prevents me from going more than 3-4 times a week). We don't HAVE to go to Mass; we GET to go to Mass. And the more often we go and receive our Eucharistic Lord, the better!

Jimmy
You may want to take a look at the 1917 Code of Canon Law here in Latin, which I think would make it more clear than the loophole driven version promulated by first John XXIII and then finished by JPII
I know some Latin, but much of this is clear, and I am sure you can translate
TITULUS XIII: De diebus festis
Can 1247 §1. Dies festi sub praecepto in universa Ecclesia sunt tantum: Omnes et singuli dies dominici, festa Nativitatis, Circumcisionis, Epiphaniae, Ascensionis et sanctissimi Corporis Christi, Immaculatae Conceptionis et Assumptionis Almae Genitricis Dei Mariae, sancti Ioseph eius sponsi, Beatorum Petri et Pauli Apostolorum, Omnium denique Sanctorum.
§2. Ecclesiastico praecepto dies festi Patronorum non subiacent; locorum autem Ordinarii possunt sollemnitatem exteriorem transferre ad dominicam proxime sequentem.
§3. Sicubi aliquod festum ex enumeratis legitime sit abolitum vel translatum, nihil inconsulta Sede Apostolica innovetur.
Can 1248. Festis de praecepto diebus Missa audienda est; et abstinendum ab operibus servilibus, actibus forensibus, itemque, nisi aliud ferant legitimae consuetudines aut peculiaria indulta, publico mercatu, nundinis, aliisque publicis emptionibus et venditionibus.
Can 1249. Legi de audiendo Sacro satisfacit qui Missae adest quocunque catholico ritu celebretur, sub dio aut in quacunque ecclesia vel oratorio publico aut semi-publico et in privatis coemeteriorum aediculis de quibus in can. 1190, non vero in aliis oratoriis privatis, nisi hoc privilegium a Sede Apostolica concessum fuerit.

jch, what a wonderful Christmas for you. And LOL at the "Holy Spirit gut punch."

This is past the fact, but our young adult children were having this very discussion on the Friday before Christmas. At first I thought that going to Mass on Sunday evening would fulfill both obligations, then a Holy Spirit gut punch woke me up.
After listening to a very interesting and lively discussion of said children, I found a spot for me to slide into the conversation without taking it over or playing the "Mom" card, which of course happened anyway. I simply explained to them that one Mass is required for the Fourth Sunday of Advent, and another one for Christmas. This has been a year of reconversions for these young adult children and a deeper understanding of the faith by my spouse, with the result that we had been praying together as a family each evening, but during Advent we lit the Advent candles. They had the picture of the one candle waiting to be lit. The young adult lady went with her parents to the Sunday vigil, then spent Christmas with close friends in another state who attended the Christmas Mass. The recently recoverted young men attended the Spanish Liturgy on both evenings. All of the added graces to the family translated into mom outdoing herself in the kitchen and dad helping with the dishes. An entire family has been quietly transformed since last Christmas. This will not make headlines, but my heart calls it a Christmas Miracle.

Kasia,
If there are no Catholic Churches with in a reasonable distance (up to you and your Spiritual Director) then you are released from your obligation to attend Mass or another Liturgy, ie Eastern.
So if you are in the South or in Russia and there are no Catholic Churches around, you are not bound to attend any church, your Sunday Obligation is loosened.

Question - I was talking to someone who made it to Sunday Mass yesterday morning but stayed up late watching the midnight Mass from the Vatican and thus overslept and didn't make it to church this morning. (No, this isn't me.) I would assume that watching a Mass on TV could only conceivably count towards fulfilling your obligation if there were no Masses nearby for you to attend. Am I right?

Why do so many people make their best efforts to avoid going to Mass?
And why do we (including the Church!) use terms like "obligation" when referring to the honor and privilege and celebration of Mass, as if it is this terrible, awful burden that we must endure?
But the fact is, regardless of whatever terms the Church uses, you are not "obligated" to do anything with respect to God. Do whatever the hell you feel like doing. You don't "have" to go to Mass both Sunday and Monday. Sit at home watching TV and drinking beer and eggnog if you want. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.
Now, of course, if you don't want to spend an hour or two with Jesus, if you don't want to receive Jesus' gift of His Body on the day of giving, you just may end up finding out that, in the end, He won't oblige you to spend eternity with Him either.
If you love someone, of course you want to spend time with him or her, and you don't consider it an "obligation."

Why do so many people make their best efforts to avoid going to Mass?

I agree, Mary Kay. I know that for a Latin-rite Catholic, the general intention is that you assist at Masses for the liturgical day of the Latin-rite calendar, though the law is written as it is in order to not be overly burdensome. Unfortunately, there are always those who interpret Church laws and guidelines for their own perceived benefit - or at least in a manner that requires the least effort!

SDG and Fr. Martin, I see what you and Jimmy are saying. In fact, I've done that - gone to a Byzantine liturgy to satisfy the Sunday obligation. But it was in Ordinary time - and for me, a non-normal circumstance.
Two Christmas Masses (vigil and day) may be okay from a technical, legalistic standpoint this weekend. But there's something wrong with a Latin-rite Catholic skipping the Fourth Sunday of Advent.

Last week, in our church bulletin, Father said straight out "we do not offer a 2-for-1 special". It then proceeded to list the Mass times which would count for the Sunday obligation and the Mass times which would count for the Christmas obligation and basically told the people choose one from column A and one from column B and then they would be set.
Of course, I play flute in two different choirs in my church, so I played at the Saturday Mass last night and our 9:30 Mass this morning. Then our Saturday choir is providing the music for the 8PM vigil tonight and our 9:30 choir is providing the music for Midnight Mass, so I'll be at church two more times tonight. We were teasing our pianist that we were going to set up a cot for her in the music room so she could catch some rest today between the Sunday morning Masses and the Christmas vigil Masses (our first one is a childrens' Mass at 5:30PM and our last morning Mass ended at noon)

All too complicated.
Fr. John, NOT the same as a church rule and an unclear badly written one at that is NOT dogma, is NOT necessary for salvation
it is a rule of an overly bureacratic institution albeit with a Divine purpose
It is not in the Bible, not in the Universal Catechism, is not part of the Deposit of the Faith
--it is a confusing and badly written rule
It is NOT the same as an airplane pilot or some specific technical profession being loosey goosey

Josh, yes, thanks.
That's why I'm thinking that a Mass after 4pm today would be for Christmas and not Advent.

Mary Kay,
Because Christmas Day falls on a Monday this year, Second Vespers of the Fourth Sunday of Advent conflicts with First Vespers of Christmas, which takes precedence. Advent ends with the First Vespers of Christmas.
Though I generally prefer the overall layout of the old Calendar, this seems to be a better solution than that of the old Calendar, in which the Fourth Sunday of Advent is not celebrated at all, being outranked by the Vigil of the Nativity.
Merry Christmas to all!

Things like these are easily resolved.
Go to mass everyday. I know that is not as easy as it sounds.
In other countries, they distribute Holy Communion without the Mass at certain times of the day so people who are busy can at least recieve the Eucharist. But in a non-Catholic country it is kind of harder, as turnouts to such oppertunities are low.

You won't get the "two-fer" for Christmas ... but you will get it for the Feast of Mary, Mother of God on Jan. 1st.
"Although this Solemnity is designated as a holy day of obligation, the faithful are dispensed from the obligation this year because the Solemnity falls on a Monday. However, the faithful should be encouraged to participate in the celebration of the Mass and the parish schedule of Masses for the Solemnity should encourage their participation"

Fr. Martin, this is an area of interest to me, so I wish I had more time. For now though, doesn't Advent end before EP1 of Christmas?
I'll be back after all the hubbub of the next 24 hours.

It's not correct that some people will satisfy their Sunday obligation. Anyone attending 4 pm or later is attending a Christmas Mass. If that's their first Mass of the weekend, then they missed the Fourth Sunday of Advent.

What Fr. Martin said.
There is no specific obligation to attend "the Fourth Sunday of Advent" in that sense, since as Jimmy already pointed out out you can even attend a Mass in another rite where they wouldn't be celebrating "the Fourth Sunday of Advent" at all.
Rather, one must fulfill one's Sunday obligation, and one must fulfill one's Christmas obligation -- and, although theoretically the letter of the law might not make it clear, the "constant and common opinion of learned men" seems to indicate that the Christmas Eve Mass can suffice for one or the other of these obligations, but not both.
That may be slightly paradoxical, but it seems to be the way it is.

Mary Kay:
No, I disagree. Jimmy had it right: if you attend Mass on Sunday -- at any time (including the liturgical time "extension" onto Saturday evening, that fulfills the Sunday obligation. That includes a Mass for Christmas.
However, if you attend a Mass for the Vigil of Christmas to fulfill your Sunday obligation, then to fulfill your Christmas obligation, attend at midnight or after, on Christmas Day.
The "straightforward" norm that people want is already there: the mandate to keep holy the Lord's Day, and holy days of obligation. So however you do it, you participate in Mass on each day -- "day" understood liturgically as well as chronologically -- which indeed does produce two 32-hour days that overlap.
The rationale for this is that canon 18, cited by Andy, about interpreting strict regulations strictly. I.e., they are to be interpreted in the people's favor. So, in this case, the faithful are given the widest latitude.

italics off.

At Christmas Eve Mass tonight, there will be some people who are satisfying their Sunday obligation, but not their Christmas obligation -- while other people will be satisfying their Christmas obligation, but not their Sunday obligation. They're sitting side by side at the same Mass, but satisfying different obligations while leaving different obligations unsatisfied. Doesn't that seem at least odd, even if it's correct?
SDG, that's the nub of it. (I missed it in your first post.) It's not correct that some people will satisfy their Sunday obligation. Anyone attending 4 pm or later is attending a Christmas Mass. If that's their first Mass of the weekend, then they missed the Fourth Sunday of Advent.
The liturgical calendar is very clear. A Mass is one liturgical season or the other. This is one of those and/or not both.

Merry Christmas everyone!
Our Bishop (Dio. of Wichita) made it pretty clear as well that one must attend both the normative Sunday Mass as well as a Christms Eve or Christmas Day Mass to fulfill the necessary obligation.
Also, in my parish (St. Mary's Cathedral), our "Midnight Mass" is at 10:30 pm this year, as KSN (channel 3 Wichita) is brodcasting it live, followed right after by a Mass from the Vatican.
And nary a peep from anyone who might have feelings against the idea.
I'm serving at the 5 pm Vigil tonight, and will probably watch the 10:30, or parts of it, because our choir and music is just awesome.

SDG, actually this is something that is very clearly cut and dried. You're using the word "anticipation" to mean two very different things. A Vigil Mass is said to "anticipate" the day, which is the meaning you seem to be saying. But the anticipation I referred to is the focus of the Advent Masses themselves.

You bolster your case by citing from the General Norms for the Liturgical Year. My comments were made with respect to canon law, which does seem ambiguous.
Look at it this way. At Christmas Eve Mass tonight, there will be some people who are satisfying their Sunday obligation, but not their Christmas obligation -- while other people will be satisfying their Christmas obligation, but not their Sunday obligation. They're sitting side by side at the same Mass, but satisfying different obligations while leaving different obligations unsatisfied. Doesn't that seem at least odd, even if it's correct?
For all of these people, there is an obligation to attend Mass at some other point at any time from Saturday evening to Monday night. That's, like, a 50-plus hour window. I'm not objecting to whatever the Church wants us to do, I just think it's odd.

I know the Bishops have some leeway with this, but how much?
Lots. In fact, lots and lots.
Note that holy days are matters of discipline and not dogma, so the question is what is good for the people -- and it's a prudential judgment.

Mary,
Glad this helped, though if you are still sick--if you *might* give the flu to someone, particularly an old person with a weak immune system--then DO NOT GO TO MASS.

Thank you Jimmy for making it all so clear! After having a tantrum for a moment, because I had been planning on only going to Sundays 3:30pm Mass, and this was going to make things more difficult. (I've been in bed for two days w/ the flu and have alot of catching up to do.) I do have so much to be thankful for. For a merciful Father who shows me my tantrums, usually very quickly. And praise God for this sudden unexpected good health, that I am able to go and worship Him and celebrate with my family. And thank you Father John for being so direct, fufilling the role given to you even though some may not like it. "And the word was made flesh, and dwelt amongst us."

You are eager to use Canon 19 to make your own sense out of 1248, but what about 18, which states Canon 1248 states:
"Laws which establish a penalty or restrict the free exercise of rights or which contain an exception to the law are subject to a strict interpretation."
Strict interpretation sounds pretty clear to me.

So much easier if you just attend daily Mass whenever you can. Then you don't have to keep the rules straight. :)