Allah = God?

by Jimmy Akin

in Islam

A reader writes:

The thought comes from one of your commenters, and I
think it’s worthy of a blog entry (because I’m trying
to work it out myself).
Is the Christian God the same god as the Muslim Allah?
I think most orthodox Catholics will answer yes, but
that generates the question, what does that mean?

The immediately obvious discrepancy is that Muslims
deny the Trinity. But other characteristics fail as
well. Muslims would shudder at the description of God
as "Father."

So if suffient characteristics of their description of
God diverges suffiently from our description of God,
do we have different gods?

I wrote a philosophical paper on this question a few years ago that I meant to submit as a journal article, but I’m afraid that I haven’t gotten around to it. At this point, I’m not even sure what hard drive it’s on, so I’ll have to do some digging around.

In the meantime, lemme see how well I can come up with a quick encapsulation of the overall argument.

For purposes of simplicity, let us consider the question of prayer, with the understanding that what is said about this topic can be applied in a general way to other forms of relating to the divine, such as offering praise, adoration, etc.

Prayer can be defined in various ways (lifting the heart and mind to God, petitioning God for some good, etc.), but let’s use an understanding of prayer that anyone can understand: Prayer is talking to God.

So the question becomes: When Muslims talk to Allah, are they talking to God?

We need not be detained by the fact that the word "Allah" is not the normal English word for God. It is the normal Arabic word for God, and it is used by Arabic-speaking Christians as a designator for the true God all the time.

We also need not be detained by alleged origins of the term in pre- and proto-Muslim history. Where a term comes from does not determine its meaning. How it is used determines its meaning (otherwise the word "nice" would mean "ignorant" since it comes from the Latin word nescius) and so, regardless of where the word came from, how Muslims use this word today is key to determining whether they pray to the same God we do.

How important it is to recognize present use is illustrated by the fact that Arabic-speaking Christians also use "Allah" as a descriptor of the true God. When they so use it, they have in mind a Trinitarian Being, the Second Person of whom became incarnate as Jesus Christ. That’s what Arabic-speaking Christians mean by "Allah."

Arabic-speaking Muslims (and other Muslims) obviously mean something different, and the question is whether their usage of the term is different enough that it would prevent prayers they address to Allah from being prayers addressed to God.

What characteristics does a Muslim typically envision Allah as having? I would advance the following list as some of the most important characteristics:

1) Is an uncreated being
2) Is the creator of the universe
3) Appeared to Abraham
4) Is just
5) Is merciful
6) Will raise the dead
7) Is not a Trinity
8) Is not incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth

Characteristics 1-6 are ones that Christians agree with Muslims about. It is characteristics 7 and 8 that are the key points of disagreement. Are they sufficient to keep God from receiving Muslim prayers directed to him?

Before answering that question, take note of this fact: A non-Christian Jewish person would say exactly the same list of characteristics applies to the God to whom they direct their prayers.

Christian tradition and the Bible itself acknowledge that Jewish individuals do worship and pray to God, even if they do not understand that he is a Trinity or that he is incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth. If you’re going to say that belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation are essential for worshipping or talking to God then you’re going to have a huge problem with Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.

And yet the person’s understanding of God is different than the one that the Church proclaims.

I think that light on this question can be shed by recognizing that it is quite possible for us to talk to someone even if there are things that we don’t know about them or even if we have false beliefs about them.

To illustrate this point, let’s take the case of someone with a secret identity: Bruce Wayne.

Suppose that I am a paperboy who delivers copies of The Daily Planet in the neighborhood where stately Wayne Manor is located, so one of my customers is millionnaire playboy Bruce Wayne, who always comes out to get his paper promptly, being as interested in local and world affairs as he is. One day as I’m pitching The Daily Planet in the neighborhood, I see him out on his lawn, and I say, "Howdy, Bruce!" He waves back and says, "Hi, Jimmy!"

I had this (brief) conversation with him even though I–as a normal Gothamite (transplanted from Texas)–am totally unaware of the fact that he is secretly Batman. There thus can be things about a person that I do not know and do not believe about him, yet it doesn’t stop me from having a conversation with him.

This is analogous to the situation of the Jewish people in the Old Testament, who prayed to God even though the doctrine of the Trinity had not yet been revealed.

But it’s not analogous to the situation of someone after the revelation of the Trinity who has considered and rejected the doctrine, so let’s go back to the thought experiment.

Suppose that one day as I am pitching copies of The Daily Planet and I notice an article on page one by Lois Lane that is headlined BATMAN IS REALLY BRUCE WAYNE!

Now, I’ve read all of Lois’s previous attempts to prove that Superman is really Clark Kent, and every single time she’s run a story like that, it’s been disproved. So I long ago concluded that Lois Lane is an unreliable source on the subject of superhero identities.

When I see her latest such story, I just laugh and shrug it off, and when I pitch the paper to Mr. Wayne, I call out "Hey, there’s a story on page one that you should really get a kick out of! Haw-Haw!" and Bruce smiles and says, "I know. I already read it on the Internet and had a good laugh. By the way, the Internet is driving dead-tree newspapers out of business, so you should start looking for a new job. May I suggest apologetics?"

Bruce and I were able to have this conversation even though I had already entertained and rejected the claim that he is Batman.

So if I can talk to someone about whom I have false beliefs, what would prevent a person from talking to God even though he has false beliefs about God?

Let me go back to the thought experiment one more time to unearth an insight that should be of help.

The next day I’m tossing papers and I see Mr. Wayne on the lawn and there is a TV reporter there interviewing him. I toss him his paper and shout, "Hey, Mr. Wayne! Thanks for that tip about apologetics! I put in my application with a group in California!" and he calls back, "Good for you, son!"

Unbeknownst to me, the person I talked to this time was not actually Bruce Wayne. In reality, it was Chameleon Boy from the Legion of Super-Heroes, who used his shape-shifting power to impersonate Bruce Wayne so that he coud be interviewed by a reporter while the real Bruce Wayne was being interviewed on TV with Commissioner Gordon at the same time across town, setting up "proof" that Batman and Bruce Wayne are two different people and thus once again denying Lois Lane the prize of outing a superhero.

In this case I believed that I was talking to Bruce Wayne, but in fact I was not. I was actually talking with Chameleon Boy.

In this case I had a massive number of false beliefs about the person I was talking to. I believed that he was (a) a human being, who was (b) a resident of Gotham and (c) a native of the 20th century and (d) from the planet Earth, and (e) a millionnaire and (f) a middle-aged man and (g) someone who possesses no superpowers.

In reality, I was talking to (a) an alien being, who will be (b) a resident of Metropolis and is (c) a native of the 30th century and (d) from the planet Durla, and (e) has no special wealth and (f) is a teenager and (g) possesses the power to change shape.

How could I get so much wrong about the person I was talking to and yet be talking to him? What was it that allowed my words to be addressed to him even though almost every belief I had about him was wrong?

It would seem that there is some set of minimal core criteria that allow me to talk to a person even though almost everything I believe about him is wrong. What might this be?

In the case of an ordinary conversation, I would suggest that the fundamental criterion of who we are talking to is something we aren’t always fully conscious of.

Suppose that on the third day I had a partner with me in the car, helping me roll papers, and after I finished speaking to Chameleon Boy, he turned to me and said, "Who were you just talking to?" I reply: "Bruce Wayne," and my partner says, "Who’s that?" Annoyed, I point and say, "That guy over there."

"That guy over there" is the real descriptor of who I was talking to. I believed that this person was Bruce Wayne (which was false) and that he was not Batman (which was true), but in reality I was talking to a particular person "over there." As long as there was someone "over there" (i.e., as long as I wasn’t hallucinating) then that is the person I was talking to, even if I was mistaken about the person’s identity and everything else about him.

Notice thus that we have to different kinds of characteristics that apply to the person I was talking to. The primary criterion is that he was "that guy over there," while everything else about him (the idea that he was Bruce Wayne, that he was not Batman, that he was a human, that he was a millionnaire playboy) were secondary criteria.

This is the way conversations work when we are talking to someone in person: The person we are talking to is the one who satisfies the primary criterion we have in mind–usually "that person over there"–even if none of the secondary criteria we have in mind apply to that person.

Upon discovering that none of the secondary criteria apply, we may say "Oh! I wasn’t talking to you!" but we refer in this case to who we intended to talk to, not who we were talking to. If I discover that the person I have been talking to is not who I thought he was, that doesn’t change the fact that I was talking to him.

So we’ve got a handle on how conversations work in person, but what about conversations with people who aren’t physically present and can’t think of as "that person over there"?

In this case, it seems to me, we have to decide which criteria we are going to treat as primary and which as secondary.

Suppose that I am a person who is unsure whether Christianity is true. I believe that God exists and that he created the world, but I am not sure whether he is a Trinity or whether he incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth. So I pray, "God, please guide me so that I realize the truth about you and whether I should become a Christian."

In this case, the primary criterion of who I am addressing would presumably be "Creator of the Universe" or something like that, and thus the Creator of the Universe would understand that I was addressing him, even though I am uncertain about other things concerning him.

Suppose, though, that I was a person who really hated Christians and was unwilling to address their God, even if he exists. In this case the criteria I am applying to the person I am addressing might be something like "the Creator of the Universe as long as he isn’t the Christian God."

In this case my prayer would be addressed to no one because, in fact, the Creator of the Universe is in fact the Christian God. Up in heaven, God would say, "Sorry, but if you’re really determined not to talk to the Christian God then you’re not talking to me. You’re talking to the void."

Now suppose that I believe that the Creator of the Universe isn’t the Christian God, but I’m willing to talk to him if he is. In this case my primary criterion is "Creator of the Universe" but "is not the Christian God" is a secondary criterion. As long as this is the case, I’m still going to be talking to God. Up in heaven, God will say, "Okay, you’re wrong about me not being the Christian God, but you’re still willing to talk to me even if I am, and so your prayers are addressed to a real Being."

If we’re going to ask about the prayers of Muslims in particular and whether they are addressed to God, I would say that it depends on the Muslim in question. Some Muslims may be so anti-Christian that they would be unwilling to talk to God–to Allah–if it turned out that he was the God of the Christians. Those Muslims would not be talking to God because there is no being that corresponds to the description "the true God who is not the God of the Christians." They would be talking to the void.

But the vast majority of Muslims don’t seem to be in that condition. They may not believe that God is a Trinity or that he incarnated in Jesus of Nazareth, but they are still directing their prayers to something like "Creator of the Universe" or "God who appared to Abraham" or "the one true God" or something like that.

This is what enables the Catechism to state that Muslims "acknowledge the Creator" and that "together with us
they adore the one, merciful God" (CCC 841).

Whew!

Okay, that ended up being longer than I meant it to, but I hope it sketches some of the philosophical basis for how a person can genuinely talk to someone (including God) about whom one has false beliefs.

That’s something we need to happen because, no matter who we are, at some point in our lives all of us have entertained false beliefs about God–even from misunderstanding perfectly orthodox catechesis in childhood–and we still need God to answer our prayers in those times and to guide us toward a correct understanding of him.

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Something relevant to this post:
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia: A Catholic weekly newspaper in Malaysia has been told to drop the use of the word "Allah" in its Malay language section if it wants to renew its publishing permit, a senior government official said Friday.
The Herald, the organ of Malaysia's Catholic Church, has translated the word God as "Allah" but it is erroneous because Allah refers to the Muslim God, said Che Din Yusoff, a senior official at the Internal Security Ministry's publications control unit.
"Christians cannot use the word Allah. It is only applicable to Muslims. Allah is only for the Muslim god. This is a design to confuse the Muslim people," Che Din told The Associated Press.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/12/21/asia/AS-REL-Malaysia-Catholic-God.php

Do language historians know what word Arabic Christians used for God prior to the 7th century?
I'm wondering what the Arabic word for "Chameleon Boy" is. :-)

My wife's best friend married an ex Jesuit who always signed his letters "Yours in Christ" and was always spewing nice Catholic and religious words, well after 1 child and 4 years of marriage they are now divorcing and tales of abuse, verbal and physical, hatred for the church, his wife and threats of taking the child away back to Ireland all from someone who used such wonderful words
Yep, that proves it; he was a secularist too.

NBC: Pope's Turkey trip a surprise success
By Keith Miller
Senior foreign correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 1:14 p.m. PT Nov 30, 2006
ISTANBUL, Turkey — The newspaper headlines here have been astonishing. "So Far So Good," read one banner headline; "Alliance of Faiths," read another. And splashed across the front page of most papers Thursday was a picture of a smiling Pope Benedict XVI waving a Turkish flag.
With gentle gestures and well-timed words, Benedict managed to charm the Turkish people and transformed his image from a crusty old anti-Turkish Islamaphobe to a politically savvy statesman in a matter of days. (He is set to return to Rome at midday Friday.)
Dire warnings
This is not how things were expected to turn out for Benedict's visit to Turkey. Rather, there were dire warnings of mass demonstrations and fears that there might even be an assassination attempt because tensions were still so raw among many Turkish people over past perceived transgressions by the pope.
In particular, before being elected as pope the then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger spoke out against Turkey’s bid to join the European Union. And in September of this year, Benedict inspired the ire of Muslims the world over when he quoted a 14th century Byzantine emperor who said Islam was violent and irrational during a speech at Regensburg University in Germany.
The mood the day before the pope arrived was ugly. Twenty-five thousand protesters gathered in Istanbul to demanding that he never set foot in their country. Most of the people at the demonstration were members of a conservative Islamic organization.
The papal tour had even seemed to fail to gain much support from the government, with so many ministers saying they had to be out of the country on business that one wondered who was going to run things during the visit.
Sea change
It all turned out much sunnier. After a building-bridges-inspired reshuffling of schedules, there to greet Benedict when he arrived in Ankara on Tuesday was Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, who had originally said that he would miss the pope’s visit because of a previous engagement at the NATO meeting in Latvia.
And upon meeting Erdogan, Benedict immediately scored a home run by announcing that the Vatican was not opposed to Turkey's entrance into the European Union and that he considered Islam a religion of peace.
With those words, Benedict instantly gained points on two hot-button issues and seemed to turn down the temperature a bit. At outdoor coffee shops the mood was relaxed, with most saying they were happy the pope was visiting, though others were still demanding an apology for the pope's remarks linking Islam to violence.
On the same day, Benedict sat as still as a member of the choir as he listened to a lecture by Ali Bardakoglu, Turkey’s president of religious affairs, who, in a direct allusion to the pope's remarks at a German university last September, said that references to Islam being spread by the sword encourage Islamophibia.
When the pope did speak he concentrated on what united Christian and Islam, not what divided it. Nothing he said amounted to an apology, but by both listening to the the implied criticism without contradicting it and by his unity-inspiring words, he seemed to calm a good deal of Turkish anger over his earlier speech.
“He was still Cardinal Ratzinger before he came to Turkey, but now he has become Pope Benedict,” said Cemal Usak, secretary general of the Istanbul-based Intercultural Dialogue Platform.
Blue Mosque
But the most dramatic gesture of respect and reconciliation came when Benedict bowed his head in prayer with Mustafa Cagrici, the head cleric of Istanbul, inside Turkey’s most famous mosque — the Blue Mosque — on Thursday.
With his visit, Benedict became only the second pope in the Roman Catholic Church’s 2,000-year history to step inside a Muslim place of worship. The other was Benedict’s predecessor, Pope John Paul II, who visited a mosque in Syria in 2001.
The event was carried live on Turkish television. And there was the leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics deep in prayer inside the mosque. "This visit will help us find together the way of peace for the good of all humanity," said the pope during the visit. Another home run.
Not world peace yet, but….
To be clear, no sweeping reconciliations have been achieved on this papal tour. For instance, the pope did not achieve an end to the divisions between Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics. (A major goal of his papacy — and this trip to Turkey — is to gain unity between the two ancient branches of Christianity which split in the so-called Great Schism nearly 1,000 years ago. In the Schism, two major branches of Christianity — the Catholic Church, based in Rome, and the Orthodox Church, based in Constantinope [now Istanbul, Turkey] — emerged. [The protestant branch of the church came in the 16th century after the reforms inspired by German cleric Martin Luther.])
But Benedict did have a symbolic display of unity with Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians. The pope called for greater freedom for religious minorities and lamented the long-standing rift between Christians, saying, “the divisions which exist among Christians are a scandal to the world."
The hurdles to achieve inter-faith trust are formidable, but as this trip winds up, both the pope and the Turkish people can be considered winners.
The losers were easy to spot: al-Qaida in Iraq and the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt, both of which protested the Pope's visit — al-Qaida calling it a "crusader campaign" against Islam — and expressed hope that the Turkish people would extensively protest the pope's visit.
Let's go to the scoreboard: Turkey has a population of 70 million people, 99 percent of whom are Muslim, yet they hosted the leader of the Catholic faith with dignity, respect and, on occasion, charm.
It was not an easy visit for both sides, but the world got a valuable lesson in tolerance.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15971974/

Jimmy, you perform a valuable service: You give anti-Catholic bigots a chance to ride their hobby horses in front of Catholics who recognize their bigotry for what it is.

Jeb Prostitute:
Why not read the post above that said:
"I lived in Saudi Arabia for about 3 years and every Friday, their holy day, they would preach against Americans, christians etc. So it is understood, that all they have to receive is the word from their leader, and presto, they can kill us (christians, americans, etc). The reason I know this is that their "homily" is brodcasted on a loudspeaker and there is a mosque practically on every corner.
That said, the Pope is very wise to find common grounds for discussion with them."
Posted by: AnonnyMouse | Dec 7, 2006 10:05:15 AM

When the Pope was in Turkey, did he tell a single Muhamadan the he should believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation?
Wouldn't the "Vicar of Christ" tell Moslems that they are lost without Jesus?
Or does the Pope believe that all "good Moslems" are "anonymous Christians" shades of his buddy Rahner?
Oh, yeah, after the event at Regensburg, as well as the continued persecution of Christians in that area already, why not provoke the Muslims even more by uttering all these things!

When the Pope was in Turkey, did he tell a single Muhamadan the he should believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation?
Wouldn't the "Vicar of Christ" tell Moslems that they are lost without Jesus?
Or does the Pope believe that all "good Moslems" are "anonymous Christians" shades of his buddy Rahner?

SDG: Yes, this is originally so, but later (basically after Jehu was commanded to depose Ahab) the term Baal was (and is) exclusively used to refer to idolatrous practices. This is further emphasized by the pratice of eliminating the word "baal" from compound personal names and replacing it with the word bosheth (which means "shame"). For example, Isboseth (2 Samuel 2:10).

...by worshipping in a Mosque they just lead more sheet astray
John,
Did you get anything I mentioned at the beggining?
Just like the Christian Martyrs who may have prayed in the pagan temples at the time of Rome or in mosques at the time of the crusades, though they may have been their PHYSICALLY, they were actually praying to the Father of our Saviour, Jesus Christ, or even to Christ himself!
You mean to tell me that the physical place a person is in dictates to whom they send their prayers?
You do know that in spite of any place on earth being dedicated to whomever else it may be, God, OUR God, is ever present regardless!
What is God? Some limited being who cannot even step foot (so-to-speak) in places that have been rendered unto other gods?
If so, then, what kind of God is that?
Also, that would mean that all the prayers of the Christians who ever prayed in these places to our Lord at the time of persecution prayed in vain. Even more, their very faith was in vain if our God was only limited to those places consecrated to him! What a pathetic god! And to think God was the one who created everything -- without whom all things existing would not have their very being!

Thanks, Ryan C.!
Although, no doubt, John (jtNova) will perhaps ignore this once again and go on with his tirade, regardless.

Baptism of implicit desire implied in St. Justin Martyr (151 AD):
"We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151])."

Also, Kasia, I am also glad that you remain ever cautious regarding statements made by folks that may hint a certain aroma of relativism. That is certainly a concern especially in our age.
God be with you, Kasia!

KASIA:
Esau,
Thanks for the clarification - I see your point now. I saw "dictates of their own conscience" and my relativism alarm started going crazy. ;-) And I'll be the first (well, OK, the second, since you are technically the first on this thread) to acknowledge that Christians have done horrific things in the name of their faith, and it isn't all just buried in the Crusades and the Inquisition. I was just trying to follow the train of thought - philosophy has never been my best subject. :-)
Bill, the improvement in your golf game could also due to your getting more practice! I, for one, will assume it's that. :-)
No problem, Kasia!
God bless you!
I am very glad to see that I have a sister in Christ who so enjoys the Chronicles of Narnia as I did when as a youth!

Sorry. That last post was me.

Mr. SDG,I stand corrected. Thanks for correcting.

Though, about the Baptism of Desire part, how about those persons who have not heard of Christianity who led upright lives?

That is why there is such a thing as baptism of IMPLICIT desire. (BTW, "leading upright lives" isn't enough.)
P.S. John, my earlier link on this subject was not addressed to the general topic of Allah = God, but to a specific question raised by Sunny in Cali, regarding the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

From Dr. C in 2005:
"If we as Catholics believe we have an obligation of obey the pope, then we face a dilemma. If we obey these popes we must give up our Catholic Faith."
Kooky is a good place to start.

Actually the Popes said that 'Christ died for all men, but not all of those Christ died for will be saved'.
Though, why do people make a big fuss over the issue of why did the Pope face Mecca when praying? Is he not allowed to face the direction which contains Mecca?
It's not as if he's praying to any pagan god or to Allah; THAT would be the correct time when people should complain, if he ever did that. After all, how could we know if he DID pray to false idols? Can we read his heart? Is there evidence that he did, aside from pure speculation?
I agree though that we should do something about an increase in Islam. Sooner or later if that continues (God forbid) we might again be living in a society where we Christians are the minority and Islam is the number one religion, very much like in Medieval Europe.
Though, about the Baptism of Desire part, how about those persons who have not heard of Christianity who led upright lives?

Good link, SDG. I particularly like: "For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church."

SDG
AS far as Baptism of Desire, that applies to all faiths, and only if the desire it up to an including on their deathbed. But if we continue to have Popes who go on saying that people of all faiths can get to heaven WITHOUT adding what you stated, as per scripture (baptism) then the Popes are misleading, and by worshipping in a Mosque they just lead more sheet astray
Statistics are clear that their is a huge influx of converts to Islam, not the other way around, and this must be dealt with

Baal and Baal-zebub are two different entities. Baal ("lord") is the proper name of a Canaanite deity, the lord of the storm, day-to-day king of the gods, and husband/brother of Anat. Yet the Hebrews occasionally borrowed this name to refer to Yahweh, along with (much more frequently) the name of "El," who in Canaanite mythology was the high and remote king of the gods.

SDG: I guess I failed to type the entire name, but so do many Bible translations. By Baal, I meant Baal-zebub. Nevertheless, this distinction actually makes my point rather than debunking it. Baal-zebub worship was the reason Jehu slew Jezebel, the reason why Ahab was removed from the throne. Elijah surely didn't believe that Baal-zebub and Yehweh were the same entity; if he had, he wouldn't have slain 450 of Baal-zebub's prophets. The point is, Baal-zebub (literally, "lord of the flies" ... which, properly speaking, applies to Yahweh, since He is Lord of all, including the flies) is a proper name referring to a demon whom the people worshipped as a god.
In the context of Surra 53 and the crescent symbol (among other reasons), we can deduce that Mohammed meant the word "Allah" to be a proper name, referring to the moon-god and not the more general term for God.

Didn't the Hebrews borrow the name El from previous Canaanite usage? IIRC, El was the father of the gods, the husband of Asherah, the high god who was removed from day-to-day affairs, while Baal was the "local" high god and the husband or sister of Anat.
For that matter, the Hebrew scriptures sometimes call God Baal too!

Here's the problem, though ... according to pre-Mohammedan mythology Allah (the moon-god) and his consort, the sun-goddess had three daughters Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat. Now, as can be seen in the Koran, Mohammed himself at least at one point thought that Allah was one in the same with the moon-god of Mecca.
Take note of Sura 53:18-20: "Verily, he saw one of his Lord's greatest signs. Have you thought on Al-Lat and Al-Uzza. And Manat, the third, the other?"
Now, add to that the moon symbol for Islam, and I think you can see clearly that the Mohammedans never did make a clean break from their pagan origins. Would a Baal worshipper who tried to equate Baal with the God of Abraham be believed? Or a worshipper of Moloch?

Even if Allah was originally a moon-deity, that is totally irrelevant. The fact is that in Arabic, "Allah" means God, just like the Greek "Theos", which was originally used of Zeus, Apollo, etc., and the Latin "Deus", which was originally used of Jupiter, Mars, etc. With the exception of the Jewish people, every culture that has come to Christianity has been pagan. It is natural that terms used about the previous cult came to be applied to Christianity.
My point in the above is that the name 'Allah' is not relevant to the question at hand. My take is that the Muslim Allah is their mistaken conception of the true God, to Whom their prayers are certainly directed. The main issue with Islam is that it purports to be the true Abrahamic faith and part of Mohammed's mission was to 'correct' the mistakes of Judaism and Christianity. Because we know that Our Blessed Lord is the fulness of revelation, the revelations to the Prophet were not genuine.
Since Islam is a false religion, as there can only be one true religion, it is not salvific. That a false religion makes certain true affirmations is not problematic from a Catholic standpoint, even in pre-V2 theology. God's existence can be known from human reason, and certain of His properties can be deduced therefrom.
Nonetheless, Islam cannot save your soul. It is possible for individual Muslims to be saved despite Islam, however. But this is not something that can be relied upon, so me must evangelize, pray, fast, and give alms for the conversion of hearts.

I am Catholic, and American. Because of my work--I was in Souteast Turkey by Syria (Adana, Iskenduren) and even into Syria briefly.
I went to a "Mass" as it was the only one for hours (the closest Catholic Church was in Iskenduren many hours away from where I was and I think there was one in Antioch) that was "Greek" Orthodox (the Divine liturgy but not Greek besides the Kyrie Elieson), while I am not fluent in Arabic, and for this point I was in Turkey as a nation state--the Liturgy was in Arabic, the word Allah was used for God. So Allah is God insofar as Christians have an Arabic term for God. That does not mean that Islam may not be diabolical in origins (but individual Muslims may be well intentioned and have part of the truth) nor that Islam does not have a different view of God (even if the same name in the Arabic language of God) specifically as it relates to analogia entis (the analogy of being which Rahner and von Balthasar elucidate), the Trinity, the Incarnation, and other concepts but Trinity and Incarnation being the most important. (but either do some Protestants, although certainly most Protestants are Trinitarian and believe in the incarnation--but some do not, and either do Jews and both in English use the term God so the question in linguistics is does God=God)
By the way, wanted to meet my Sunday obligation, and told by a Catholic priest in Kazhakistan (somehow associated with Opus Dei) that an Orthodox service (and even sacraments) were legitimate if no Catholic church or priest or mass was around. In some parts of the world, believe it or not, there are not many Catholic Masses.
So Allah does = God But that does not mean that Islam has the same understanding or even that it is "good" on an absolute or inherent basis.

Addendum to my prior statement: Let's start with Jimmy's initial statement that "We also need not be detained by alleged origins of the term in pre- and proto-Muslim history. Where a term comes from does not determine its meaning. How it is used determines its meaning (otherwise the word "nice" would mean 'ignorant'..."
That's true as far as it goes, but I don't believe it applies here, not when it comes to personal names.
To test that assertion, we'll use Jimmy's Batman analogy. Before I begin, let's say that the assertions about the name Allah being originally the name of an Arabic pagan moon-god. St. Paul says that we cannot eat at the table of devils (in the form of pagan gods). This would seem to me to mean that the word "Allah" at least initially referred to a demon whom the people of one particular region worshipped.
Now back to the Batman analogy: let's say that you've got a bunch of thugs running around claiming to be henchmen of the Joker. Let's go so far as to say that some of them actually do perform sort of good deeds (helping old ladies cross streets and stuff ... albeit whether they wanted to get to the other side or not) but others go 'round knocking down lightposts and stuff. Now both groups (good and bad henchman-types) claim that they serve a man named the Joker. They all say that the Joker fights crime dressed in dark-colored spandex, a cape, and mask with pointed ears. The two groups disagree about the existance of the Ace the Bathound and while they believe that the Joker has a a younger masked sidekick named Superman, none of them believe that Superman actually does anything.
Commissioner Gordon has the latter group of these nincompoops (the evil lightpost-tippers) rounded up and, after further questioning them, shows them an artist's rendering of the Batman.
At this point, these dorks say, "Yeah, dat's da boss. Dat's da Joker. You got a problem wid'dat? He told us to tell you dat Superman is just a regular mook like you an' me. Well, uh, more like me; me an' Supes' is tight like 'dat. You just a punk."
At which point, Jim Gordon, shakes his head in pity and sends them back to their cells to await booking.
Do these lightpost-tipping men serve the Batman? What about the others, the old lady helpers? They all claim to serve the Joker, after all, and not Batman.
My apologies for the long-ish analogy. I hope it didn't take too much of anyone's time.
Mr. Akin, if you're reading this, I'm not ridiculing your analogy. I rather liked it in fact. I just don't think you can so easily discount the origin of the name Allah.

No one here denies that Baptism is required for salvation.
So why argue that muslims can be saved when they in no way shape or form recieve Baptism

Because there is such a thing as baptism of implicit desire.

One question:
No one here denies that Baptism is required for salvation.
So why argue that muslims can be saved when they in no way shape or form recieve Baptism.
Muslims don't seem to love Allah the way we love God. It is more fear than love. But that is just my opinion.
Blessings

Esau,
Thanks for the clarification - I see your point now. I saw "dictates of their own conscience" and my relativism alarm started going crazy. ;-) And I'll be the first (well, OK, the second, since you are technically the first on this thread) to acknowledge that Christians have done horrific things in the name of their faith, and it isn't all just buried in the Crusades and the Inquisition. I was just trying to follow the train of thought - philosophy has never been my best subject. :-)
Bill, the improvement in your golf game could also due to your getting more practice! I, for one, will assume it's that. :-)

If I sincerely believe that flying a plane full of civilians into the World Trade Center is God's will, I don't know that that makes it less of a fundamentally immoral act.
It depends on to what extent your sincerity springs from an invincible ignorance.

*Sigh* Look ... I know that Jimmy said that we should leave out the history of pre-Mohammedanism, but in the case of the word "Allah," it does matter. Given that Allah, according to most sources with which I've come into contact, was initially one of about 600 pagan Arabic gods (the moon god, to be exact ... which is signicant given the symbol the Mohammedans use), to say that "the word Allah certainly equals God" is not necessarilly so. How that plays into the rest of this, I don't know. I do know that St. Paul seems to equate the worship of pagan deities with the worship of demons, which would mean that the Allah of pre-Mohammedan times is of demonic origin. Is Allah still that same individual? And just who was it that appeared to Mohammed under the guise of Gabriel? Certainly no good angel would do this.
I guess what I'm saying is that, while I can't say what entity the Mohammedans currently offer tribute, the originators of the Mohammedan religion were not "of God" at the very least and quite possibly directly from the Hellish Lowerarchy.

"But I don't understand what is kooky about Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy?"
Well, I may have spoken without actually bothering to go back and verify what I thought I remembered.
I will try to find some of his writing on the web. I confess being mostly ignorant of him.
My apologies.
I do remember distinctly seeing huge portions of his writing cut and pasted into the combox of posts on very tenuously related topics.
His writing was also used - again cut and pasted in massive chunks - in defense of what I considered to be some pretty kooky opinions held by previous combox visitors.

Ex Nilhio:
"The word Allah certainly equals God. The question is whether the Islamic understanding/belief in/of God is the same understanding/belief as Catholicism."
Does the second affirmation cancel out the first? Those outside the Church (Christian or not) can approach a rightr understandning of God - and even the beginnings of a saving relaltionship with Him. All this is because of the breath of His Grace and the gift of the Natural Law.
I contend and my prior post((supports longish as it is) that Islam's understanding of itself does not participate in the knowledge or saving grace. Period. Individual Muslim may, in spite of their religion, becuase the Natural Law and the Love of God always trumps. But Islam is a deliberate denial that God does or even has a desire to true knowledge of himself or to enter into a relationship with manking on the basis of the personal. A religion that fervently denies Being and Personhood is a conduit of nothing but rebellion. Therefore Allah does not = God.
Always amazed how far we get away from the oriignal intent of the post.

Of course I meant Dr C
God bless his soul whether you agreed with him in totality or not

Kudos Paul
Dr K Cooky?
He is probably one of the most well respected Apologists of this era, a man of integrity who recently passed but I had the pleasure of meeting, a devout man deeply distraught of seeing what has happened to our Church

The word Allah certainly equals God. The question is whether the Islamic understanding/belief in/of God is the same understanding/belief as Catholicism. (Underelying it is that the Catholic belief of God is correct)

Paul, thanks for the info on Dr. C. I had skipped over his post because of its length (probably the reason for whatever the number in Da Rulz), but I'll eventually go back and read it.

Tim J, like your art by the way especially the Mary
But I don't understand what is kooky about Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy? He is an educated man, a medical doctor, convert to Catholicism, friend of Mother Teresa, Thorassic surgeon, prolific writer, friend of Fr. Dr. Malachi Martin, yes--too ultra traditional for my tastes but has many good points.
The points cited above are scripture, early Church Fathers and Elders, Saints, and Pope St. Pius X on the salvation of non Catholics as well as truth within other religions not by post V2 writers but by St. Pius X and Church Fathers.
They are logical, accurate, and you can disagree but no a priori dismiss as kooky. Calling him kooky without reason or to dismiss without discussion is unfair.

I also think JPII was a wonderful and holy man-but he compromised the faith by his actions
Are you aware at Assisi the rabbis refused to sleep in rooms with crucifixes and had them all covered up, while we removed the blessed sacrament and all other articles and allowed hindu and buddhist symbols of worship to be placed on our sacred altar? There are other countless examples of this and a true and worthy Vicar of Christ, the leader of 1B Catholics at least in Baptism (how many practice??) would never ever do
Today our Pope prayed towards Mecca-what will tomorrow bring? Did any Imans reciprocate and pray to Jesus in a church?

God Bless JP II!
May his example of great humility continue to teach us even unto today!

Kasia,
If I sincerely believe that flying a plane full of civilians into the World Trade Center is God's will, I don't know that that makes it less of a fundamentally immoral act.
Also, Kasia, the dictates of conscience is one thing; the lack of one is another.
Muslims aren't the only folks that have committed heinous actions as individuals in the name of their religion and believed what they were doing was right.
Christians (be they Protestant or Catholic) as individuals have committed several terrible ones as well, although they believed what they were doing was right.
What I loved about Pope John Paul II is that he didn't play the blind fool to the mistakes the Church had made in its past in terms of the actions taken by certain individuals in it throughout its illustrious, yet tainted history.
Though, as far as faith and morals are concerned, the very fact that in spite of the presence of such corrupt individuals and the terrible actions by these Judas Iscariots, it shows all the more the power of Christ present in His Church, keeping the power of the Evil One from prevailing over her!

Well, it coulda been me, Kasia. I've wondered if the improvement in my golf scores since I turned 50 is merely due to thinking I made a 4 on a hole, when I really made a 6. (And, if it is, don't tell me; ignorance sometimes really is bliss).

This Coomaraswamy feller has been cut and pasted ad nauseum in Jimmy's combox before.
Pretty kooky stuff.

Hi Kasia:
Thus the "if any man do a cruelty in my name, it is Tash he serves" bit...Make any sense, what I'm trying to say?
I believe we may be talking pass each other. When I said:
"those pious and devoted persons out there in other religions who strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience,"
That is actually what I meant.
Let me put it another way:
Unbeknownst to persons of other religions, when they commit an action in accordance to the Law (that is, the Law of God as revealed to us in Scripture), they, in the righteousness of their action, give glory to God, the Father of Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
As St. Paul says in Romans 2:14-15:
14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these, having not the law, are a law to themselves.
15 Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them:

Bill912,
Mea culpa - it must have been *my* memory that was playing tricks on me, since you checked the DVD and confirmed. I stand corrected on how Peter killed the wolf in the film. :-)
Kasia

John,
Ask santa for a new hobby horse, Please!

Just a question though. If i was a 'secularist' in the sense Mr. John puts it,
Am I automatically not allowed to invoke Our Lord, Our Lady and the Saints? Do I have to refer to them in disrespectful language since i was a 'secularist'?
Am I automatically damned to Hell since I was born a Post-VII Catholic and the Gates of Hell already prevailed on the Church at that point (despite the Lord not promising it to) leading to so-called abominations?
When I pray in my bedroom, Am I praying to my bed?
Does my bed receive the Prayers adressed to Our Lord?
But, at least, I've seen Anti-Catholic Fundamentalists call Catholics Mary-Worshipers, Pagans and such. And right just on our own backyard, We have Ultra-Traditionalists calling us Liberals, Secularists etc.
I did not realize we're being attacked from both sides, one from the outside, and the other from the inside.
If there's anything that shows me Satan is trying to destroy the church, it's gotta be the internal feud that goes on between 'Ultra-Tradtionalists', 'Ultra-Liberals', and the 'Middle Ground Catholics' about many things, especially the Church Post-VII.
If this continues on, Since we're busy fighting and picking on each other, satan may not need to infiltrate the Church, he might even outright destroy it since no one's left to guard it and we are all busy arguing against each other.
Thankfully, Christ promised that The Gates of Hell shall never prevail against His Church.
Vivatis in Christo, (I forgot I'm a secularist, i'm never supposed to use such words, much less in Latin)
patrick

Uh, speaking of violations of Da Rulz...
Not. The. Worst. Rule. Three. Violation. Evah. But. In. There. Trying.

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