Abortion/Excommunication Mess

by Jimmy Akin on February 9, 2007

in Canon Law

There are press reports about an Austrian bishop saying that a business owner who rented shopping mall space to an abortion clinic has excommunicated himself.

HERE’S JOHN ALLEN’S VERSION OF THE STORY.

Allen goes a bit too far when he says:

It’s long been a subject of debate whether more remote forms of cooperation, such as the contractor who builds a clinic, also trigger automatic excommunication.

Not that I’m aware of. Not in serious canonical circles.

The canon that provides automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication for abortion is this:

Can. 1398 A
person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae
excommunication.

As phrased, that would strike only the person who has actually procured the abortion. However, canon 1329 also provides that:

§2. Accomplices who are not named in a law or
precept incur a latae sententiae penalty attached to a delict if without their
assistance the delict would not have been committed
, and the penalty is of such
a nature that it can affect them; otherwise, they can be punished by ferendae
sententiae penalties.

The clause in blue allows not only the procurer of the abortion to be struck with automatic excommunication but also those directly involved in the abortion itself, such as the abortionist, the person who paid the money for the abortion, and possibly a few others (nurses, the person who drove the patient to the clinic). It does not apply to people whose cooperation is more remote and thus whose role might have been substituted for by someone else. At least, in the absence of an authentic interpretation to the contrary, it is doubtful whether the law applies to remote cooperators, which means that the following canon kicks in:

Can. 18 Laws which
establish a penalty, restrict the free exercise of rights, or contain an
exception from the law are subject to strict interpretation.

That means that in cases of doubt you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the person who would be struck by a penalty.

Since the cooperation of a person who rents space to a "sexual health clinic" that performs abortions is only remotely involved (like the people who supply electric power and gas and who stamp the legal forms at city hall and to handle the clinic’s money at the bank, and who provide cleaners, and who provide medical supplies), you can’t–as the law presently stands–say that these people are automatically excommunicated.

The green CLSA commentary on the Code concurs:

A properly strict interpretation means that the canon applies primarily to those directly participating in the abortion, not those removed from such participation [p. 1603, n. 308].

If a bishop with the proper jurisdiction over the shopping mall owner concludes that the owner is gravely at fault for renting space to the clinic (an extremely resonable conclusion) then he could declare an excommunication (ferendae sententiae), but it would not be an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication.

My sense on this is that the Austrian bishop (apparently an auxiliary of Cardinal Shonborn) simply misspoke, which is why Cardinal Schonborn hasn’t backed him up.

In any event, the press reports on this are a mess.

MORE FROM ED PETERS.

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John,
Again-answer my simple canon law question above in a simple sentence and not your rantings
Discussing these issues with you is like discussing something with a teen-aged know-it-all. The answer to all your questions is this:
God established His Church with His authority. You do not get to judge His decisions or ignore those He gave His authority. He will judge them and us. God have mercy on us all.
Your problem is you think the authority of the Church comes from you, if you choose to be obedient. Again, you are like a rebellious teenager. Your example is not leading anyone to the Church Christ died to establish.
Since you ignore questions that others have asked you it is silly for you to claim no one can answer your childish questions.
You are only a danger to yourself because that is the only authority you have over anyone. Get used to it.
To everyone who has to suffer through these comments I apologize.
And now back to our regularly scheduled post...
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Judas would have been forgiven had he repented
The only difference between the heinous act of betrayal committed by Judas and the heinous act of denial committed by St. Peter is that St. Peter came back to the Lord, trusted in Him and His Mercy, and repented of his sin.

Forgiveness? Well, let's see...St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Augustine... Judas would have been forgiven had he repented...Saints are repentent sinners. It gives great hope to a repentent sinner like me to be in such company.

Back to the topic:
How about those Catholic judges whose actions on the bench promote abortion?
Certainly, if not for certain rulings (or concurrence on such rulings), certain abortions would not occur in the first place (or, at least, not legally).
I would be interested to hear from a Canon lawyer if Catholic judges automatically suffer excommunication for similar acts they commit on the bench.

Esau-Say what you want as you fail miserably in as an Apologist as you can not defend 40 years of contradiction and declining morals not to mention statistics across the board
Again-answer my simple canon law question above in a simple sentence and not your rantings Esau! Or can you?
We've covered this ad nauseam in the past in several threads.
I refuse to take part yet again in what is nothing more than your calumnious tirades against the Catholic Church.
What's more, you fail miserably as a "Catholic"; for somebody who claims to be so devoted to the Truths of Catholicism, you attack its very principles by, among other things, taking upon yourself the authority of the Church, its leader, the Pope, whom Christ had vested such authority through St. Peter, and, worse, hurl such awful and utterly blasphemous lies not only against its innocent clergy (and, what's more, a Pope such as Pope John XXIII) but also the Church Christ established by calling it a mere organization of Freemasons!
I assure you that the time will come when you will reap what you have sown here in the fires of the One whom you, in fact, serve!

Jimmy,
John's insults to many people on this, your blog, should no longer be tolerated. He is clearly incapable of even attempting to engage in a respectful, rational discussion with any of the many intelligent, respectful people who comment regularly on your blog.
I respectfully ask you to ban him for the sake of my fellow comboxers.

Joanna
Forgive Cardinal Law for the abuse of thousands of innocent little children and the papal coverup-Are you for real? God is forgiving, but God is also just and those who given the sacrament of Holy Orders have a higher standard than we to live up to and are to be judged as well
Esau-Say what you want as you fail miserably in as an Apologist as you can not defend 40 years of contradiction and declining morals not to mention statistics across the board
One who abhors reverence for the blessed sacrament and weakens those laws that protect and no better than the pharisies in scripture
Again-answer my simple canon law question above in a simple sentence and not your rantings Esau! Or can you?

You made the accusations, John. The burden of proof is on you, not me.
Christ preached forgiveness. Maybe you should try that too. If Cardinal Law truly repented of his since and asked absolution from God, he received it. Who are you to say that he doesn't deserve absolution?
He's been effectively punished for his crimes against the Church. He was taken away from a position of power and insituted as the head of a tourist church in Rome. The Pope obviously thought that punishment was good enough, and I trust in his authority.

PEOPLE, PLEASE IGNORE THE RAD-TRAD RANTS OF DARTH JOHN JTNOVA MARTIN LUTHER VADER I.
Now, going back on topic, if somebody could please answer my question in the previous post, that would certainly be appreciated.

- are the "Catholic" Senators and Representatives who support abortion (or who refuse to vote against it) automatically excommunicated?
I've heard a lot said to the effect that, because they are not directly procuring the abortions, they are not culpable. However, if it were not for their refusal to condemn the practice through legislation, the majority of these abortions would not be committed.
Is this a legitimate interpretation of canon 1329, §2: "Accomplices who are not named in a law or precept incur a latae sententiae penalty attached to a delict if without their assistance the delict would not have been committed..."?

Well, let's turn things up a bit --
How about those Catholic judges whose actions on the bench promote abortion?
Certainly, if not for certain rulings (or concurrence on such rulings), certain abortions would not occur in the first place (or, at least, not legally).
I would be interested to hear from a Canon lawyer if Catholic judges automatically suffer excommunication for similar acts they commit on the bench.

Jamie Beu
The so called "Rad Trad" discussion was made such by those who like you, had a very basic question like yourself. Quoting canon law 844 above where it is clear that John Paul II changed canon law to allow the Body of our Lord to be given to those who are not in communion with the Catholic church such as Protestants. This has never before been allowed in the 1983 year history before JPII and his new catechism and it ties into your question about Pelosi and her excommunication and not being allowed to receive communion
Esau, Tim and Inocencio, as they always do as they can not defend the modernistic changes made to appease these other faiths, always make this into a "rad trad" issue-but if this is rad trad-then maybe one should be proud to be a rad trad if they are protecting our Lord from desecration and being sold on E-bay
So I also ask for those to get back to the topic at hand-what then does it matter if one is excommunicated and not be able to receive communion if per Canon 844 one can receive our Lord if they desire so and are not Catholic??????

I think she receives in her hand.
Andy and Jamie,
There are several lay persons who have and are trying to bring this to the Bishops and Nancy's attention. You have to remember, there are Catholics who feel that if they can justify something in their head, then all is OK.
As long as you FEEL it is ok, then it is ok. Instead of them conforming and informing their conscience, they basically become a little god.

Andy and Jamie,
There are several lay persons who have and are trying to bring this to the Bishops and Nancy's attention. You have to remember, there are Catholics who feel that if they can justify something in their head, then all is OK.
As long as you FEEL it is ok, then it is ok. Instead of them conforming and informing their conscience, they basically become a little god.

I would like to know the answer as well. Where have all the conservatives gone? Is there no longer a conservative voice in American Government?

How does Nancy Pelosi continue to receive communion?

Sorry to try to get us back on topic and away from the RadTrad discussions, but nobody has ventured even a guess at an answer to my question above:
- are the "Catholic" Senators and Representatives who support abortion (or who refuse to vote against it) automatically excommunicated?
I've heard a lot said to the effect that, because they are not directly procuring the abortions, they are not culpable. However, if it were not for their refusal to condemn the practice through legislation, the majority of these abortions would not be committed.
Is this a legitimate interpretation of canon 1329, §2: "Accomplices who are not named in a law or precept incur a latae sententiae penalty attached to a delict if without their assistance the delict would not have been committed..."?

John is harmless and he knows it.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

JoAnna
Sinless? No
Pedophiles-No
That is the difference. To condone and cover up sin, as these Bishops and even JPII has done with Cardinal Law is sin that is mortal in nature, especially if unconfessed and I have yet to see an apology come from Rome for wisking away Cardinal Law and not let him face judge and jury for his crimes or at least supposed crimes
Accusations? I guess that you dont read much of the newspapers do you? Please show me one accusation that I have made that is not public knowledge and has been printed in a so called "Mainstream" and I dont even mean so called "Traditional" websites or newspapers

John,
You make a lot of accusations, but fail to prove any of them.
And even if - IF - some of your accusations were true... I was under the impression that all cardinals, bishops et al are human and thus prone to human sins and failings.
So... are all the members of SSPX sinless or is it just you?

Esau,
Sorry 'bout th' cornfusion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that 'imperial march' is the official John William's title for what is commonly referred to as 'the Darth Vader theme.'
David B.:
The title "Imperial March" is so generic that when I had saw it from your post, I first thought of the "Imperial March" theme from an old classic movie about Rome and mistook that one as the one you were referring to due to the Roman Catholic Triumphalism that's been rampant lately on this and other threads which, no doubt, Dan Hunter and JtNova actually subscribe to no less.

John,
What do you suggest? Doesn't it make you a little nervous to be the "judge" and "jury" of all things Catholic? What if you are wrong? And what are your fruits? Charity, humility, piety?
Please remember you sound like Martin Luther.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

"More like the "Dearth Vader" theme."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that 'imperial march' is the official John William's title for what is commonly referred to as 'the Darth Vader theme.'

JOHN (jtnova):
The below remark of yours is absolutely hilarious!!!!
Are you sure you're not looking in the mirror???
Look at what you said:
You are so quick to denounce everything and offer nothing in return as to how to make things better
If we were to compile all your posts, it would clearly demonstrate that you are the one who are so quick to denounce everything and, in fact, offer nothing in return as to how to make things better!
When Innocencio had politely requested suggestions from folks in one thread some time ago, all you did in return was go into your usual long tirade on the many evils of Vatican II and how the clergy in the Catholic Church today are all but a bunch of Freemasons!

JOHN (jtnova):
Pedophila was rampant before Vatican II, no, Esau, in its desire to get a liberal open minded priesthood, homosexuals were admitted in droves where before they would never have made it past the first interview with the formation director
If that's the case, then why are the majority of pedophile priests are old men who are approaching death or about to croak?
As Chris Matthews joked with Dennis Miller way back when, it's not the young priests you should be worrying about; it's the old ones.
To which Dennis Miller remarked that it was nice to know just which priests we are to look out for!

"imperial march playing in the background"
David B.:
More like the "Dearth Vader" theme.

"imperial march playing in the background"

John,
You make some very laudable points."By thier fruits ye shall know them".
God bless you and your beautiful family.

Yes Esau,
Pedophila was rampant before Vatican II, no, Esau, in its desire to get a liberal open minded priesthood, homosexuals were admitted in droves where before they would never have made it past the first interview with the formation director
With woman and nuns now in many instances now after V2 the formation directors or worse yet homosexual priests, they were admitted in droves
You are so quick to denounce everything and offer nothing in return as to how to make things better
Lets see:
Cardinal Law swept off to safety in Rome
His sucessor O,Malley now being charged with taking $86M away from retired priests which breaks the law to pay for these abuse cases
Cardinal Mahoney allowing desecration after desecration to take place along with openly homosexual groups to use church property
Bishop of SanFrancisco promulgating adoption by openly homosexual couples
Bishop Tod Brown of CA not allowing parishoners to kneel or worship reverent
(4) Dioceses bankrupt as we speak due to pedophila with NYC selling 20 church's to pay for and due to declining attendance
I am getting tired as this is only current news
Pray for a full restoration of our church to tradition and reverence

Inocencio, Cavid B and Anonymouse:
Cavid B.? who is he?

JOHN (jtnova):
Again, you engage in such incredibly illogical, and highly calumnious rants that your hostile anger against the Catholic Church today blinds you from reason!
Look at what you just said:
You only sit back so well and throw names around at those who speak up against the Catholic Reformation of 1962-1965, and when a Bishop today actually does what he is supposed to do, like protect the faith and the body and blood of Christ it actually makes news because it is against what is taking place so wide spread.
Protect the Faith?
Since when is "protecting the faith" consists of usurping the authority of the Pope which was given him by Our Lord Himself through St. Peter unto his successors?
If "protecting the faith" means the arrogance to contradict the commands of Christ as to the Church He had, in fact, established which He instructed we obey (Mt 18:17-18); then, certainly, Martin Luther was indeed a hero to all Catholics (and not only the Protestants) and possessed an authority greater than that of not only the Pope but also Christ for it is He who had made the Church and the authority in her Pope (through St. Peter) so!
One-Holy-Catholic-Apostolic? Show me where as it is a hodgepodge today after Vatican II of little feifdoms run by mostly corrupt homosexual
How charitable and truly Catholic of you to generalize the whole of the Catholic clergy as nothing but a bunch of homosexual miscreants!
in many instances Bishops who cant even get up enough guts to deny the Body and Blood of Christ to so called "Catholic" supporters of baby killing
Again, you intend to accuse the whole Catholic Church of such infamy when, in fact, it is the individual actions of a few who have committed these shameful acts.
That is like condemning all of the Apostles of Our Lord of the shameful act of betrayal that Judas had committed when, in fact, this notorious act of Judas was his and his actions alone.
Besides, what authority do you actually have to command such things of those who are above you?
1 Thes 5:12-13
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them who labour among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you;
13 That you esteem them more abundantly in charity, for their work's sake. Have peace with them.
If there be clergy, those over us, who disobey/contradict Christ, they shall be certainly accountable to God for such outrageous actions.
...like Pelosi, Cuomo (who actually just released a statement saying "God bless Pope John XXIII and one wonders why)
Again, you and your "holier-than-thou" attitude which not only seeks to place himself above the authority that God has given to His Church, but you also dare make yourself the judge of man and, therefore, usurp the place of God; but, even worse than this, in spite of all your personal faults and numerous iniquities, you go so far as to promulgate lies and nasty innuendo about God's servants without just cause whatever.
So shame on you for not being angry and just sitting by while homosexuality runs rampant in society
So, now, here, you blame the Catholic Church because of the council at Vatican II for the homosexuality that actually exists in society????
As far as human history goes, it would seem that homosexuality preceded even Vatican II!
and what is being sold today as the "norm" today on tV and the papers today would not even be thought of to be discussed before Vatican II
Here, you've made the most laughable of assertions! You actually appear to blame the Catholic Church for the state of programming currently found on television today????
Since when did the Catholic Church become the sole owner of Network TV????
Get with it
Yeah, I agree, YOU should get with it!

Accomplices who are not named in a law or precept incur a latae sententiae penalty attached to a delict if without their assistance the delict would not have been committed
So, does this or does this not apply to lawmakers who willfully choose not to limit or deny abortions? I mean, after all (their thinking, not mine), if there's laws against abortions, that'll just push them to back alleys and wire hangers. Passing a law against abortion doesn't necessarily mean an abortion won't be committed...
Seriously, are the "Catholic" Senators and Representatives automatically excommunicated? I've heard a lot said to the effect that, because they are not directly procuring the abortions, they are not culpable.

"the church is already in shambles because of her denial"
Sounds like despair.

John,
Good morning!
Still won't answer my question? And I hope that you can forgive me if I accept the understanding that Sacred Scripture give us about the Church and ignore your faithless ranting and Banter.
"as Christ also loved the church and delivered himself up for it: That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: That he might present it to himself, a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
I would caution you about insulting the Bride of Christ.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

A few?
No-it is now the norm. When you have Bishops all over Europe who refuse to allow an indult, American Bishops who refuse to deny Communion to baby killers, Bishops who refuse those who want to kneel to receive our Lord and during the consecration, pedophilia covered up by those who are supposes to be protecting our youth and the sacred faith. Even today on Spirit daily, which by the way is a mainstream Catholic news organization which compiles articles from all over the world, another produce of these rotten fruits you so defend.
A return to the true teachings as per the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917, Baltimore Catechism and do away with this so called renewal which was condemned by Pope after Pope until modernism and materialism took over the Papacy and has brought nothing but shame to our church
Our lady is holding back the hand of her beloved son from seeking retribution on those who wear the clerical cloth and those that are worshiping as humanists and not God himself. History has shown in the OT what has happened to those who deny God, and the church is already in shambles because of her denial

John,
As I always have to do with you, I repeat my question:
Do you ever tell our Blessed Lord how wrong (at least in your opinion) it was of Him to establish His Church with His authority founded on fallen creatures?
I look forward to your next faithless rant.
Mark 4:40. And he said to them: Why are you fearful? have you not faith yet?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

John,
But your disobedience because of theirs does not justify anything.
You are speaking of a few, who, should be corrected.
Yes we should point out grave errors and abuses especially when it comes to the Holy Eucharist.
But because someone has misinterpreted Vatican II does NOT justify US in bad mouthing and saying the "whole" Vatican II and Bishops and Church is wrong, etc.
We keep correcting with charity and offer our suffering and PRAY that we may have the strength to survive, because our faith and fidelity will be tested.
You mentioned something, that excommunication is sort of like a joke now because no one listens or cares. What about us? How do we show others the importance of this? By our own obedience. By subjecting ourselves to, in some cases, a scandalous Bishop and by correcting in charity and remaining faithful.
Already with it.

Inocencio, Cavid B and Anonymouse:
Angry?
Yes-Should not you be as well for what is taking place in the church? Did not St Thomas make clear to us as scripture states:
"Where there is a proximate danger to the Faith, prelates must be rebuked,even publicly, by their subjects. Thus St. Paul, who was subject to St. Peter, rebuked him publicly. --St. Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians 2:14
You only sit back so well and throw names around at those who speak up against the Catholic Reformation of 1962-1965, and when a Bishop today actually does what he is supposed to do, like protect the faith and the body and blood of Christ it actually makes news because it is against what is taking place so wide spread. One-Holy-Catholic-Apostolic? Show me where as it is a hodgepodge today after Vatican II of little feifdoms run by mostly corrupt homosexual in many instances Bishops who cant even get up enough guts to deny the Body and Blood of Christ to so called "Catholic" supporters of baby killing like Pelosi, Cuomo (who actually just released a statement saying "God bless Pope John XXIII and one wonders why), Kerry and those who made those who make anti Catholic statements publically
So shame on you for not being angry and just sitting by while homosexuality runs rampant in society and what is being sold today as the "norm" today on tV and the papers today would not even be thought of to be discussed before Vatican II
Get with it

I agree with everything you wrote. How does any of it counter the quote from Ed Peters?

In God's name, he is directly, immediately responsible in his own person for all the crimes that take place on his property, by his decision and inspiration, with the cover of his name, and for his profit. HE IS MAKING MONEY OUT OF THE BABY-KILLING!!!!! And he is doing so in public and with a swagger. What kind of reasoning denies that this is direct, immediate, personal, public, impenitent, rebellious responsibility?

"Want any more? Lugner obviously falls into the category or excommunicates latae sententiae."
Ed Peters: "...canon law imposes excommunication only for a very narrow range of actions; renting space to an abortion clinic isn't among them."
Please explain what the canon lawyer got wrong, why, and how this is "obviously".

The last anonymous comment was mine.

I plead guilty to having just given a cursery (Time for Mass soon) look at the issue, but can't resist sharing a thought. Isn't it possible that guilt of the Mall owner (Don't forget the signpainter and the guy/gal who took their ads etc.)is there, but falls into a catagory somewhat less than automatic excommunication. It seems to me that much of this argument is really about incurring sin - most of which may not trigger excommunication.

Jimmy and Ed explained how the man did not incur latae sententiae excommunication (i.e., he wasn't *automatically* excommunicated). Please explain how they are wrong, and how the man did incur latae sententiae excommunication, given Can. 18.

That is nonsense. The abortion clinic is part of the services offered by this man's mall, which he built and which carries his name. Without his decision, there would be no abortion mill and no easy abortions in a shopping mall. He has deliberately decided that abortions would be on offer easily in a place that carries his name. He is excommunicated. Edward Peters and you are both wrong, I'm afraid.

John,
Do you ever tell our Blessed Lord how wrong (at least in your opinion) it was of Him to establish His Church with His authority founded on fallen creatures?
It seems as though you think you could do better. How would you have done it?
Please pour forth all the wisdom, humility and charity you obviously receive from attending the Tridentine Rite.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

John,
Borrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggggg.
BTW, I predict John will accuse me of supporting the evil, liberal, communist-sympathizer pope by virtue of my above one-word commentary. *yawn*

Hey John,
Do you remember the ending of the prodigal son? Do you remember how ANGRY and upset the faithful son was? I mean, really, how DARE the father even let him back into his house!!!
When I read your post, I was reminded of the ANGRY faithful son. I think it is fitting that we don't know what happened to him. What do you think? How dare they minister to people...people not CATHOLIC....I mean...after all...they are supposed to help them get to heaven?? Right??
:0)

Tim
You are so good at calling names-yet can never refute a clear contradiction in canon law that is being promulgated
I guess if I had to defend what is being sold off today as Catholic I would act as you would as well!!

There is, apparently, no post that John can't turn into a Rad-Trad screed.
Yawn.

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