Hard Sayings Of The Old Testament

by Jimmy Akin

in Bible

A reader writes:

I have a very important question about God and right now my faith is at stake.  I doubt you will be able to provide a satisfying answer but please try your best.

In the Exodus and several other instances God ordered the Israelites to perform what I think we can all agree is genocide.  Samuel told Solomon to go forth and kill and kill every man, woman, child and beast.  Making no distinction between age, sex or whether or not they were innocent. 

These were real people living real lives.  They were not wicked evil doers in some cases, they were just in a land that was supposedly promised.  The people God ordered executed had been living there for generations and the Israelites came and murdered them for their land. 

I now know two men who will be dead soon from cancer.  A girl that was in my kindergarten class was hit and killed by a bus in first grade.  I have experienced death first hand and will soon do so again.  Nobody deserves to die and what God did was a despicable, disgusting and unjustifiable crime. 

God said every man, woman, and child.  Put yourself in the shoes of the murdered.   Maybe you have a son/daughter, perhaps a nephew or a co-worker has a child.  Imagine any child that you regularly come in contact with and then imagine some terrorist coming in and killing him/her.  "They say, oh our God ordered it.  You see, even though you own this land it really belongs to us because our God told us it was ours so we have to kill you."  You don’t believe in their God but that doesn’t matter to them.  You are just in their way and you happened to worship a different God, therefore you deserve to die.

How could a God that supposedly loves us perform genocide on us at the same time?

I am sorry to hear that your faith is currently being challenged, and will certainly pray for you. I encourage my readers to do likewise.

It is understandable that, if anything were to challenge your faith, this kind of thing would. Not only are the passages in the Old Testament difficult to understand, but the reality of suffering and death in our lives is the hardest thing for many people to endure. I have had to endure it myself, and I sympathize entirely with your situation.

Let me do what I can to see about answering your questions. I hope you’ll bear with me as I lay some principles that will become relevant later in the discussion. I want to give you as thorough an answer as I can.

First, regarding the commands to exterminate particular populations, these are, indeed, horriffic from a modern-day point of view. Such commands are incompatible with the Christian age, and anyone today who would claim to have received such commands–such as the terrorists you mention–is wrong. God does not work that way today.

The question is whether he ever worked that way, and the answer to this question must be either yes or no. We will look at both possibilities.

Suppose that the answer to the question is yes: God did at one time
command the extermination of whole groups of people. How could we
possibly make sense of this?

It would seem that the point of departure for the discussion would be this: All life is a gift from God.

Because all life is a gift from God, it is up to God to determine
how much of that gift we receive. Whether he gives us a day or a
century, it is his gift to give, and because it is a gift, it is not
something we are owed. We therefore cannot claim that God is being
unfair if he gives us one amount of this gift rather than another.

In fact, he gives all of us an infinite amount of this gift because,
once we are created, we will endure forever. After the resurrection, we
will all–every one of us–have an infinite amount of physical life
ahead of us. What we are discussing, therefore, is whether some of us
receive an infinite amount of physical life plus a varying amount of
finite physical life as well.

In some cases, such as a person who dies one day after conception,
the person receives an infinite amount of physical life plus one day.
In other cases, as with a person who lives for a century, the
individual receives an infinite amount of physical life plus a hundred
years.

From a mathematical point of view, these two gifts are
indistinguishable. Infinity + 1 and infinity + 36,524 (the number of
days in a century) are the same. In both cases, a person is given an
unlimited (infinite) amount of life.

Further, we are also given non-physical life even in the space
between death and resurrection, and that is a gift as well, even if we
are not in our bodies at the time.

The question, it seems, is thus not how much life we receive,
because (a) it is all a gift from God that we do not have a claim to
and (b) it is always an unlimited gift, even if there is a temporary
period in which we don’t have the use of our bodies.

Instead, it seems that the question is whether we suffer unjustly in this time.

Here is where the problem of evil comes in, because it is clear that
God does allow suffering to exist in the world, including for the
innocent. Why he does so is something that we have some theories about
(e.g., that he allows it in part in order to allow a certain kind of
free will to exist in the world), but much of it remains a mystery.

But the fact that God allows unjust suffering does not strike me as meaning that God himself is unjust. It would
mean that he is unjust if he was inflicting it for its own sake. That
would be cruel on his part and thus unjust. But it seems to me that God
can avoid the charge that he himself is unjust if two things occur.

The first is if he is allowing the unjust suffering for a good
cause. We have already mentioned one reason he is thought to allow
this–so that he can allow us to have a certain kind of free will–but
this explanation may not explain everything–partly because we can’t
always be sure of what the good reason is that God is allowing
suffering and partly because we ourselves may not be the beneficiary of
that good reason.

Suppose, for example, that God allowed this to happen: He allows me
to be conceived in my mother and then, one day after conception, he
allows me to die. I never have the ability to exercise free will in
this life, and so I am not the beneficiary of the reason (or at least
the best-known reason) for which God is thought to allow suffering.

That much actually happens in the real world. Some people do die a day after conception. But what happens next?

If it were the case that God allowed me to simply be damned at this
point and suffer in eternity as well as in this life then it would
indeed be possible to charge God with injustice. I was an innocent, I
never got to exercise free will and thus could not choose for or
against God, and to automatically be sentenced to eternal suffering
when I myself was innocent would be to condemn an innocent person to
hell. (I know Calvinists have ways of trying to argue around this, but
I don’t think that they are successful). God would be unjust. Nobody
should inherit an eternal and thus infinite amount of suffering if he
didn’t choose this.

The Church shares this intuition and concludes, therefore, that this is something God does not do. Nobody will suffer in eternity unless they themselves have chosen it.

What are the alternatives, then?

It would seem that there are two:

1) God miraculously allows such a dying infant to choose whether to
embrace God’s offer of salvation or to reject it. In this case the
child would be in the same state as anybody else. If they end up
suffering in eternity, it is because they chose it themselves and thus
are not innocent. If they end up in eternal beatitude, it is because
they chose it. In neither case would God be unjust toward them, for he
enabled them to freely choose what destiny to embrace.

2) God does not miraculously allow the dying infant to exercise free
will and instead automatically grants the child a positive destiny in
the afterlife. This could be either a positive natural destiny (one
which does not include the full glory of heaven but which is
nonetheless positive, as the speculative state of limbo is commonly
understood) or it could be a positive supernatural destiny (one that
does include the full glory of heaven, as in recent speculations about
the fate of children dying without baptism). Once again, either way you
go, God is not unjust toward the dying infant because his destiny is
positive.

It seems, then, that God is not ultimately unjust as long as he
makes sure that the innocent do not get a raw deal from the eternal
perspective. As long as the innocent person ends up with a positive
eternal destiny then God has not been unjust to that person. Further,
since all eternal destinies are infinite in duration, a positive
eternal destiny means an infinitely positive one. Over the course of
eternity, those with such destinies will receive an infinite amount of
natural and/or supernatural happiness.

This means, as St. Paul says, that "the sufferings of this present
time are not worth comparing with the glory that is  to be revealed to
us" (Romans 8:18).

All of our sufferings in the present are finite and so cannot compare to the infinite beatitude that awaits us.

With these principles in mind, we are able to return to the
situation of the populations that God commanded the Israelites to wipe
out. What could one make of their situation?

First, in any population of human beings, some of them will not be
innocents. Some will be people who genuinely do deserve death (mass
murderers, to take an obvious example). Therefore, in the original
population of Canaan (i.e., the holy land), some of the Canaanites were not innocents.

I am sure that the reader recognizes this, as his question focuses on the suffering of the innocent
Canaanites, and we will discuss these in a moment, but it is proper to
note that some Canaanites had committed sins that were worthy of death.
Probably more than we realize, given the brutal nature of their
cultures.

Further, the Canaanites did have a relationship with God. It
isn’t the case that El (the Hebrew equivalent of "God") was a foreign
deity that they had never heard of. There are passages in Scripture
that indicate that the Canaanites were already familiar with El and
worshipped him. This is the case, for example, with Melchizedek, the
king of Jerusalem who was a priest of El, or Balaam at the time of the
Exodus, who was a prophet of El.

Archaeology confirms this. We have dug up religious texts written by
the Canaanites, and they confirm that the Canaanites did indeed worship
El. The problem is that they didn’t recognize him as the one true God.
They recognized him as the high god, the chief god of their pantheon,
but they also worshipped other gods and goddesses, such as Ba’al and
Yam and Ashera and Anat. Since El was the original, true God, this
suggests that they had departed from the true faith at some point and
become idolaters.

This may shed light on what God told Abraham in Genesis 15:16, which
was that he would not give Abraham and his descendants the promised
land immediately, because "the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet
complete."

In other words, the Canaanite culture had not yet become so
thoroughly corrupt (through idolatry or other sins) that God felt a
clean start was necessary. He knew that this time would come–since
from his perspective outside of time he could see that the
Canaanites would become that corrupt–but he was unwilling to have
their culture be destroyed before it reached a certain level of
corruption.

That level of corruption, incidentally, is one the Israelites
themselves brushed up against. Not only did God repeatedly discipline
them in order to wean them away from idolatry (an effort that was
eventually successful, following the Babylonian Exile), but even at the
time of the Exodus itself their corruption reached a point that
Scripture says God was willing to let them all die and start over with
Moses.

How literally this language is to be understood is open to question, but the point that it makes is that the Israelites were not
better or morally superior to the Canaanites. What was different about
their situation was that God was determined to fulfill his promise to
bless the world through Abraham by creating a body of people who would
be vessels capable of conveying his truth to the world and so bringing
his light to all mankind.

God therefore allowed calamities to fall upon those who were
unwilling to cooperate with his grace and become vessels of light and
truth. This happened with the Canaanites. It happened with the Jewish
people in all their trials (including most notably the Babylonian
Exile). And it has happened to Christians as well. The reason that the
Christian community is fragmented and has suffered many setbacks is
that many of us have not been willing to cooperate with God’s grace and
have turned our back on God’s truth.

And yet, through the drama of the last almost forty centuries
(taking us back to the time of Abraham), God has progressively advanced
his program to the point that now fully half of mankind
(counting Jews, Christians, and Muslims) worships the Creator of the
World and the God of Abraham, even if they do not all understand him
perfectly. By the standards of the Old Testament, when the world was
swallowed in pagan darkness, we are living in an age in which the
ancient prophecy has been fulfilled and "the knowledge of the Lord
covers the earth like the waters covers the seas."

This has been with many setbacks and failures, and with the guilty
among Canaanites, Jews, Christians, and others suffering the
consequences of their actions, but through the sweep of history God has
still accomplished his promises of old.

And this sheds light, even if it does not address in particular the
question of the innocent who have suffered, on the overall purpose that
God is pursuing.

Now let us address the question of the innocent.

It is quite true that not all people in the Canaanite culture were
guilty, just as it is true that not all Jews at the time of the
Babylonian Exile were guilty and that not all Christians who have
suffered are guilty. So what of them?

Let’s look back at God’s plan of the ages for a moment. If we begin
with the premise that God wished to create for himself a distinct
people that could carry the knowledge of him to the world then it is
logical for him to give this people a homeland in which he could purify
them from the corrupting influences of the cultures around them. This
is what the Old Testament says he was doing with Israel, and it is what
history suggests has been accomplished, as illustrated by the vast
numbers of humans who now honor the Creator and the God of Abraham.

But if we put ourselves back in time and culture by thirty two or
more centuries, taking us to the time of the Exodus, what would have
been involved in giving the people of God a homeland in which he could
purify them?

It would seem–since there were already humans everywhere
(habitable) on earth–that he would need to remove whoever was already
living in the homeland that he gave them. Since these people would not
want to move, war would result.

War at this time also had a different character than it does now. In
the ancient world, when people were organized in a tribal fashion,
people’s primary loyalty was to their tribe. It was the tribes and the
protection that they gave to their members that allowed society to
function. Consequently, when people from one tribe went after those of
another, it often meant total war between the two tribes. If a person
in one tribe killed a person of another tribe, the tribe of the killer
had to be taken on in a general way. It was usually not possible to
extract just the guilty party for judgment.

This tribal reality shaped the mentality of the people of the day
such that they thought in terms of total tribe-on-tribe conflict. They
did not have the experience that we do of relying on a strong, central
government to carefully investigate matters and punish only those who
were personally guilty. For them, since the whole tribe could be
counted on to come to the defense of the guilty, the whole tribe was
complicit in the offenses of the guilty and it was legitimate to make
war on them all.

This is one of the reasons that we today have so much trouble in
parts of the world where society is still organized along tribal lines.

And it is one of the reasons why God had so much trouble dealing with the whole of the world thirty or more centuries ago.

In other words: In working with the early Israelites, God was dealing with a blunt instrument.
He wasn’t working with a people who had already been broken of their
tribal mentality and who were used to distinguishing those who were
personally guilty from those who were fellow-members of the guilty
party’s tribe.

This may shed light on why God allowed a total tribe-on-tribe
warfare situation to result, because this was what the people of the
day understood. The development and purification of their ideas about
collective versus individual guilt and innocence had not yet taken
place.

The fact that God needed to shield the Israelites from idolatry adds
a further consideration here. If God allowed remnants of the Canaanite
culture to survive then this would tempt the Israelites–even more than
they were already tempted–to embrace polytheism and ruin their ability
to convey the truth of God to the world.

All of this deals with what God could have done if he had a way of making sure that the innocent were ultimately taken care of. It sketches a possible
reason for why God commanded what he did in the Old Testament, but this
theory is no good if it still results in the innocent–or even one innocent person–receiving a raw deal. If even one person gets the short end of the stick with God then God is acting unjustly.

So what about it? Given his commands in the Exodus, could God make
sure that all of the innocent Canaanites who suffered would come out on
the plus side?

Yes.

As we noted, all life is a gift from God, and it is his choice how
much of it we get. Further, he gives us all an infinite amount of life,
and no one will suffer in eternity without choosing this.

Suppose that there was a Canaanite child who was four years
old–young enough to still be an innocent, but old enough to experience
the horror of watching her civilization killed around her before being
killed herself.

From a purely human perspective, that is HORRENDOUS. My heart is SICKENED at the thought of what such a child would go through.

But is God–who is infinitely powerful–INCAPABLE of making it up to this child?

No, he is not incapable of making up to her the sufferings that she experienced on earth, however horrible they were. If he gives her an infinite amount of happiness (natural or supernatural) then that more than makes up for the finite
amount of unhappiness that he allowed her to suffer in this life. And
if he assigns her a positive destiny in the afterlife, an infinite
amount of happiness will be hers.

I know that if I myself were in her situation–if I
experienced a horrible, devastating, but still finite amount of
suffering in this life–and then God gave me an infinite amount
of happiness in the next that I would count myself fortunate. I would
say with St. Paul that–no matter how horrible they were–"the
sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory
that [has been] revealed to [me]."

As long as God makes sure that I receive more happiness than
unhappiness as an innocent then I cannot claim he was being unjust with
me, and as long as God compensates the innocent for the sufferings that
have come to them in this life then I do not see the grounds for him
being fundamentally unjust.

It thus seems to me that if we make the
assumption that God did give the commands to wipe out the Canaanites
that this would not prevent him from making it up to the innocent
Canaanites who suffered and thus he would not be unjust toward them.

But suppose that he didn’t do this. We mentioned earlier the question
of whether God ever gave this kind of command, and we said that the
answer to this question is either yes or no. To this point, we’ve been
considering what if the answer was yes. But what if it was no?

In this case the commands found in the Pentateuch concerning the
Canaanites would not be meant to be taken in a literal sense. We know
that the early history in Scripture contains symbolic elements as well
as literal ones, and these commands would then turn out to be symbolic.

Presumably, they would symbolize things like the need to be totally
separate from pagan culture, of how radically incompatible the pagan
lifestyle is with faith in God. On this theory the books of the
Pentateuch would have reached their final form some time after the
events they describe, and these stories about wiping out the Canaanites
(which the Israelites did not actually fulfill; there were still
Canaanites living later) were included to teach the later readers how
they must reject paganism, and that the original audience was meant to
understand the nature of these stories as cautionary tales from which
they were to draw a moral lesson (i.e., don’t be pagan; stick with God).

If this is the case then God never did command the extermination of the
Canaanites and we, because we are not familiar with the way literature
was written at this time, tend to take as literal something that was
never meant to be literal. (It’s certainly not the first time that’s
happened!) It is just that because we live in such a different age and
because our literature works so differently that we don’t easily
recognize which parts are literal and which are not.

It thus seems to me that, either way one goes (assuming that the
commands were literal or that they weren’t), a rational account can be
offered that shows God was not acting unjustly.

Now let me go a step further and address the question of the reader’s potential loss of faith concerning this matter:

Whether or not one buys the above account, this is not going to change
the fact that suffering–including innocent suffering–exists in this
life. It just does, and us wanting it to be otherwise will not change
this fact. The question is how we interpret the existence of suffering.

It seems that we can interpret it in one of two ways: Either the
sufferings of the innocent are meaningless and can never be redeemed or
they are part of larger plan in which they do make sense and they can
be redeemed. It is belief in God that allows the latter possibility to
happen.

I, personally, would not like to believe that the innocent who suffer
are just out of luck, that their suffering was meaningless and that
nothing will ever happen to make it up to them. I’d rather believe that
there is a meaning and purpose to what happens to us–even if I don’t
fully understand it in this life–and that we live in a world in which
those who have suffered innocently will ultimately be comforted and
have their sufferings all made up to them.

So that’s what I do believe–that we’re not living in a
meaningless world in which people suffer to no purpose and they will
never be compensated. Instead, even if we can’t understand it all from
our tiny perspective, we’re living in a world that is guided by a
loving God who will vindicate the innocent who have suffered, who will
wipe away their tears and give them happiness, who will make sense of all the pain and anguish
that they have had to bear, and who will ultimately bring good out of
their sufferings–just like he did the sufferings of his Son on the
Cross.

When faced with the reality of innocent suffering, one can either suffer a loss of faith and suppose that the world is meaningless and cruel or one can make a leap of faith and believe in a world were suffering can have meaning and where the innocent will be compensated.

I choose to leap.

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Ex.22:20 "Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed."
Lev.24:16 "He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him."
lev 20:27 "A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them."

Where was I rude?

I didn't say you were. I just wanted to call your attention to the rules. You called yourself a "drive-by poster," a type of behavior that can closely align with rudeness. It was just a caution.

I can't prove there is not a God, but you can't prove there is a God (don't tell me because of the Bible).

Nobody here would say that. You've got way too many assumptions about the people you're talking to, possibly because of past experience with different people.
I think I can show it's rational to believe in God, although I wouldn't say I can "prove there is a God" in the sense you mean. So I'd say you're defining the issue wrongly to start with.

Religion is my problem, not spirituality.

Whatever that means.

Look at all the wars and conflicts that religion has caused and continues to cause; Jews/Arabs, Sunnis and Shites, Catholic/Protestant...how about the Inquisition? How many people were murdered in the name of religion?

Yes, I see that religious people kill others in the name of religion. I also see that anti-religious people kill others in the name of irreligion.

Religion is all hearsay! It's on you to prove it, not me to disprove it.

If I make inflammatory remarks, it's on me to prove them. If you make inflammatory remarks, it's on you to prove them. Like your imaginary history of "where religion comes from," for example.

If it works for you, great, but don't tell me or my kids that I'm going to hell because of YOUR beliefs.

As others have noted, there is no one here who will tell you that. Where you or I or your kids or mine go when we die is for God to judge, not us.

The Bible does.

Which text(s) are you thinking of?

Nobody here said that me or my kids are going to hell (I have had that said to me elsewhere).
The Bible does.

Now: "Who here said that you or your kids are going to hell?"

"Bill, do you feel that I'm going to hell?"
I don't allow my feelings to do my thinking for me. Nor do I make judgments I am not competent to make. I do not have the ability to read the souls of others or to predict the future. Judging the state of another's soul is the one thing that Jesus told us not to judge.

Interact. Answer my question. That would be the polite thing to do.

Bill, do you feel that I'm going to hell? If I continue to not belive?

Who here said that you or your kids are going to hell? You seem to do an awful lot of pre-judging of people you don't know.

Where was I rude? I see I'm called the 'drive by atheist'
At no point did I say I'm an Atheist. I can't prove there is not a God, but you can't prove there is a God (don't tell me because of the Bible).
Religion is my problem, not spirituality. Look at all the wars and conflicts that religion has caused and continues to cause; Jews/Arabs, Sunnis and Shites, Catholic/Protestant...how about the Inquisition? How many people were murdered in the name of religion?
It constitutes rudeness to make inflammatory assertions that one is not prepared to back up by anything more than hearsay.....Religion is all hearsay! It's on you to prove it, not me to disprove it.
If it works for you, great, but don't tell me or my kids that I'm going to hell because of YOUR beliefs.

Drive-by Atheist Tom:
Please note that while your opinions and arguments are welcome here, posters are expected to follow DA RULZ. Inter alia, please be aware of the following:
I don't mind disagreement. I do mind rudeness. … Rudeness towards others on the blog is also out of bounds.
Conversation involves an ability to talk about more than one thing, not an obsessive harping on one subject. Say your piece and move on.
It constitutes rudeness to make inflammatory assertions that one is not prepared to back up by anything more than hearsay.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Drive-by Atheist Tom, :-)
Early man had no explanation of things like earthquakes, rain from clouds, floods, ect. So man assumed that God (or many Gods in this case) must be behind all unexplainable events.
As opposed to some scientists believing science can explain all things, even that which no man has witnessed.
Now we know what causes these things and God has nothing to do with them.
From a scientific standpoint, yes, we know what cause earthquakes, etc. But believing that God effects nature is not disprovable by science. It is Theology.
Now the argument is over evolution vs. creationism. Because it is difficult to understand, religion says, 'we can't understand it, so it must be God.'
No, the Catholic Church says: "There is a debate. Either way, Christians must believe God created man in a special way, giving him a soul, an intellect and Free Will."
Do really think the earth was created in 6 days and all the evidence of natural selection is bogus?
A Catholic is not bound to the interpretation that the Creation of the Earth took place over six 24-hour days.
If God created the earth, who created God?
God is the Uncaused Cause. It is only reasonable. Life does not rise from lifelessness. Anything in motion now was put in motion by something outside of itself. The original Cause must be uncaused, or we must seek backwards forever. This is impossible since, as Science tells us, the universe did not always exist.
Lastly, do you think if you were born in Iraq or Pakastan, you would be a Christian? Your religion is based on birth place and what you are told as a child. A lot like a fairy tale.
Where were you born, that you are bound to be an atheist? I take responsibility for my beliefs. I am an adult, and the base of my belief in God is not controlled by my location or 'what I was told.' I hope it is the same for you. I have been strengthened, not weakened, in my Faith through studying it. Any questions that have arisen have been answered to my satisfaction.

I will continue to pray for you, Tom.

"...religion says, 'we can't understand it, so it must be God'."
I don't know of any religion that says that. Would you care to name one and show us the evidence?

"Now we know what causes these things and God has nothing to do with them."
This news would have come as a surpise to Einstein.

"So man assumed that God (or many Gods in this case)must be behind all unexplainable events."
Evidence, please?
"Do you really think the earth was created in 6 days...?"
No. As a Catholic, I am permitted to believe that some of the Old Testament was written symbolically. But you didn't know that, you just assumed, and did what people do when they assume.
"If God created the earth, who created God?"
God is, by His Nature, self-existent. His Name, revealed to Moses over 3,000 years ago is Yahweh, or I-Am-Who-Am. The Name Yahweh is an archaic Hebrew version of the verb "to be".

"I'm a drive-by poster."
Well, atleast he got something right. I can understand why he doesn't want to interact with us; I wouldn't want to try to rationally explain his emotinally-based positions, as emotions are, by definition, irrational.

I'm a drive-by poster.
Do you know the origins of religion? Early man had no explanation of things like earthquakes, rain from clouds, floods, ect. So man assumed that God (or many Gods in this case) must be behind all unexplainable events. Now we know what causes these things and God has nothing to do with them. Now the argument is over evolution vs. creationism. Because it is difficult to understand, religion says, 'we can't understand it, so it must be God.' Do really think the earth was created in 6 days and all the evidence of natural selection is bogus?
If God created the earth, who created God?
Lastly, do you think if you were born in Iraq or Pakastan, you would be a Christian? Your religion is based on birth place and what you are told as a child. A lot like a fairy tale.

Tom,
The child murderer can go to heaven if he repents, I might be an outstanding person, but will end up in hell simple because I don't believe. Sounds like something man made up to scare me into believing.
The murderer is saved not by his acts, but by the Sacrifice of Jesus. If you don't believe in God, you are refusing His Grace. People who reject God won't be happy with Him in Paradise. God doesn't damn people: people damn themselves.
Furthermore, the Bible doesn't approve the sins mentioned in it. It tells about the crimes of man because it concerns in large part the FALL of man and man's redemption by Jesus Christ.

Don't you want to interact and respond to my responses to your posts, Tom? Or are you just a drive-by poster?

Just read the section about Lot and his daughters. His wife is turned into a pillar of salt?
The 2 daughters get Lot drunk and have sex with him? Talk about screwed up DNA.
This is fiction people! You can't tell me you really believe this.

Tom, I can't make hide nor hair out of your post, but I'll pray for you.

When you claim something (God exists) It is on you to give FACTS to back up it, not me to disprove it. "I saw a UFO the other day" can you prove I'm wrong?
No answer for the 'Shalt not lie with another man' line, that so many claim is God's feelings on homosexuality. I thought Christ was about all Gods children. Did God make them gay? If so, why? Did God create hurricane Katrina because He is angry about abortion and homosexuality?
My dates are wrong, true, but we know the earth is much older than all religions. In fact most scientists believe the earth has 'started over' as many as 8 times.
One last question, why does God place so much on whether I believe in him or not? The child murderer can go to heaven if he repents, I might be an outstanding person, but will end up in hell simple because I don't believe. Sounds like something man made up to scare me into believing.

"This entire thread proves that if a God exists, he or she had nothing to do with the Old Testament." And the proof is what?
"The book was written by men, not God." Actually, the Old Testament consists of many books. We know they were written by men. No one ever claimed anything different. We believe that God inspired those men.
"...the anti-gay thing from one line..." Huh?
"We know for a fact that dinosaurs roamed the earth 10 million years ago." This will come as a surprise to all the paleontologists in the world, as they claim that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. Something about an asteroid.
"The book is 6,000 years old..." That would place it more than 2,000 years before Abraham.

This entire thread proves that if a God exists, he or she had nothing to do with the Old Testament. The book was written by men, not God. Slavery, wife stoning, murder in the first 8 pages, a man builds an arc and takes all the animals with him! Did he take all 30,000 species of bettles on the earth? God must love bettles. And what's with the anti-gay thing from one line in the book? We know for a fact that dinosours roamed the earth 10 million years ago. This book is 6,000 years old, do you really believe it has the answer to the creation of the earth?

A post by Dave Armstrong on the issue and my comments at http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/02/reflections-on-catholic-viewpoint-on.html

Psalm 27:1
1 ¶ (26-1) <> The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the protector of my life: of whom shall I be afraid?
To expound even further, the very fact that Our Lord endured times of tribulation personally while He was amongst us here on earth speaks to the fact such that He, Himself, knows what it's like to be in the midst of such dark and troubled times and, therefore, promises to be ever with us all times (especially during such times of adversity), until the end.
So, just as we see the glory of Easter Sunday follow the tragedy of Good Friday, so our Lord will bring about the best from times that appear the worst!
Although we, ourselves, never perceive this initially because of the seeming overwhelming darkness of such tribulation, we must, nevertheless, hope in the Lord still, as the Psalmist says:
Psalm 42:11
11 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why dost thou disquiet me? Hope thou in God, for I will still give praise to him: the salvation of my countenance, and my God.

Mary:
You refuse to accept the truth inherent in the quote, which purpose is not to incite despair of any sort, but, in fact, to promote hope for those in such troubled times.
As I've tried to express repeatedly in my subsequent posts (which you have purposely ignored for some reason):
If we trust God, we shouldn't have anything to fear since He is never one finger-breadth of space nor one minute of time far away from us whom He loves.
The very fact that an angel appeared to Jesus to comfort him in the Agony of the Garden proves that God is never far away from those whom he loves.
People who have Faith in God have nothing to fear in the world because God will never be far from those who believe in Him because of the fact that God loves them and will always be with them but, above all, would never abandon them -- especially in times of adversity. In fact, it is during times of tribulation that He is ever close to us.
If you took into careful consideration the entire quote (as reproduced again below for your convenience) from More's book (better yet, if you read the book), you would actually come to see, then, that the Christ that appears in "Footprints" is the Christ that More speaks of here; that Christ loves and, indeed, cares for us so much that He would never leave us -- especially in times of tribulation for it is then when He is not only near us, but that He is, in fact, actually carrying us through such times of hardships and pain.
Now, I just don't see how a beautiful thought as that which is inherent in this quote from More's book would be of such scandalous nature as you claim and that, furthermore, it would incite despair when, clearly, this is not at all the case.
Dialogue of Comfort Against Tribulation
by Sir/Saint Thomas More
For God is, and must be, your comfort, and not I. And he is a sure comforter, who (as he said unto his disciples) never leaveth his servants comfortless orphans, not even when he departed from his disciples by death. But he both sent them a comforter, as he had promised, the Holy Spirit of his Father and himself, and he also made them sure that to the world's end he would ever dwell with them himself. And therefore, if you be part of his flock and believe his promise, how can you be comfortless in any tribulation, when Christ and his Holy Spirit, and with them their inseparable Father, if you put full trust and confidence in them, are never either one finger-breadth of space nor one minute of time from you?
Now, about the so-called assessment that you seem to claim I've made; these comments, again, were primarily in reference to some posts you've made on other threads in the past.
I was hoping the 'contractual language' and such would have made that evident. But, as these posts of yours I was referring to here were so long ago, I can't really blame you.
Let me just end by saying that you've got to examine the entire work before jumping into conclusions about it. You'll find it a very rewarding experience if you read the book.
Also, you've got to take into consideration all I've said in my posts and not limit your examination to select points which do not reflect the entire message of my posts at all.
At any rate, God bless and I hope you do read the book.

Aleii,
A dialogue is more than just asking questions. I would still hope that you would be kind enough to answer my one question.
Is it rational in your mind that God the Father sent His only begotten Son to redeem fallen humanity, many of who would reject Him, by his passion, death, resurrection and ascension?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Some Day: The search for answers will continue to be a lifelong one. I appreciate any tidbit of information I can gather along the way. Thanks for taking the time to research and dialogue with me.

Aleii,
Saying that maybe we should not read a part of the Bible in a literalistic way is understandable and different from saying "there is a big problem here, and it seems to point to the (literal) Bible being wrong."
I would still caution anyone from thinking we can somehow judge God on the parts of the Bible we do not understand.
"I don’t blame you for not knowing the reason why God chose actions that make me physically sick,..."
And I don't blame you for not being able to know the reasons for the tragedies I have suffered in my life.
"but I don’t see the point of going in circles with you when you won’t debate my points."
Will you at least answer my one question?
Is it rational in your mind that God the Father sent His only begotten Son to redeem fallen humanity, many of who would reject Him, by his passion, death, resurrection and ascension?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Well so far one of the easiest answers I found out is this:
Sometimes a civilization reaches a point in sin, that they will never ever leave it, even if they haven't gotten to their ultimate point of evil.
God in the omnipresent saw this in the Great Flood.
Any person left alive would have continued into a terrible abyss of sin, and good could not reign with one of those.
And according to Blessed Anne Catherine, when the Ark was going to be closed, a distant relative of Noah was allowed on to it. Probably a legal relation.
And in doing so that boy who should have drowned, was the father of the people who made the Tower of Babylon.
Iniquity penetrates a whole place and the people in it and their offspring.
But even in the Great Flood, many converted as they died. And that is the greatest gift we can recieve.
This world needs that grace, a chastisement to save this damned world of ours.
And it will come.
And I cleared up on the Original Sin/Hell issue.
Original Sin was a mortal sin by Adam( he repented), but not his decendants, but enough for us not to get into Heaven, but it still takes a personal sin to go to Hell.
The interpretions you say.
The Church and Her sons and daughters have many times explained certain parts of the Bible exactly. She also has taught us that certain BOOKS are metaphorical, and some historical.
They do mix in a bit though. Genesis is historical, yet like anything, it can have a metaphor. Like a said before:
When it said He created man, it is literal.
He did not create monkey who became man.
But the 7 days could be 7 months, 7 years, 7 centuries or even 7 million years (I doubt the last one though.)
Yet it remains historical.
Now the Apocalypse is HIGHLY METAPHORICAL.
Yet it is the historical or more accurately the prophetic account of something that will have place within Time. Yet it is not considered historical. Exodus is not a huge metaphor.
And believe it or not, the best answer is that God knows best, and we may not understand it.
But man does not guide himself by reason.
It is by love, love of God or love of himself because he cannot love another being for itself execpt for those two. And then the reasoning comes, he will attempt to explain on basis of that love.
So I say to you: Love and do what you want.

Now, as for your snotty remark:
I thought you had a background in law
*snort*
Perhaps you should consider that if your guesses about my background are so far off, perhaps your judgment in other matters might need to be revisited
My previous comment was referring to some past posts you've made in other threads -- not an actual assessment or even 'guess' on your background.
And what about "referring to some past posts" means that you are not assessing or guessing about my background?
And sorry, you went on to say,
I'm sure you would have seen contractual language that far exceeds the length and conditions inherent in this
In the context of your claims about my alleged inability to fathom your posts, that is past a mere guess or asssessment; that's an assertion.
Now, on the other hand, if you have anything against what I've said in the past, please, kindly disclose them
I've already told you what I have against what you've said in this thread: your posts are factually wrong and furthermore scandalous, being an incitement to despair.
unless your intention here is simply to be snobbish and insulting.
My intention here is to try to mitigate the chances that your posts will be a near occasion of sin.

Again, this can be roughly interpreted to mean:
If we put full trust in God, we shouldn't have anything to fear since He is never one finger-breadth of space nor one minute of time far away from us whom He loves.
I don't know if that makes it any clearer for you -- but there it is.
I don't know how I can make it any clearer for you: your problem is not clarity. Indeed, the clearer you make the point, the worse your problem is. Your problem is that you are wrong. You have stated that passage means that
Yet, if somebody truly trusts in God, his/her fear in such times would be negligible, if not, non-existent.
But Jesus's fear was certainly neither non-existent, nor negligible. You have yet to address this point, because your statement can only mean that Jesus did not truly trust in God.
And if you have not misinterpreted St. Thomas More's passage -- I think you have, but if you have not -- well, then, More was wrong.

Aleii wrote: But then, this leads to the question of how do you determine which parts of the Bible are not to be taken literal and which parts are?
Okay, well, there are two senses of the term ‘literal’ that have to be distinguished.
One of the senses that is recognized by the Church is the literal sense of the text is what the text intends to convey. So, whatever the text is trying to convey, that’s the literal sense.
There is a second sense, though, which is not what the text is trying to convey necessarily, but what is suggested by the words themselves.
The Catholic Church recognizes Scripture is to be interpreted literally in the first sense (i.e., we have to pay attention carefully to what Scripture is trying to convey).
In fact, if you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in the section where it talks about the interpretation of Scripture, it says that the literal sense of the text is the foundational sense for all other senses in which the text could be taken.
You have to identify that one first before you can start applying, say, the moral sense of the text or, you know, one of the other senses.
So, the Church most definitely takes Scripture literally in that sense, but in some passages the words (if you just read the words on their own) they do seem to point a certain way. They don’t seem to be symbolic. They seem to be referring to concrete historic realities and in those passages, we have to take the nature of the text seriously. If the text is trying to communicate this really happened, then because it’s inspired by God, and God doesn’t make mistakes, we have to take it seriously if that’s what the text is communicating.
If the text really means this actually happened and we can establish that that’s what it means, then we have to say, “Well, okay, then that really happened.”
I would suggest that you read Jimmy Akin's article at Catholic.com entitled “History as the Ancients Wrote It” and those contain some guidelines.
Please note: I recommend Jimmy Akin's materials on my own accord and he does NOT in any way, shape or form provide any monetary compensation (or otherwise) for any such endorsement of his materials to me. I say this in the case where there may be those of the personality cult mindset who might go so far as to think this outrageous thought.

Esau wrote: “Yet, take notice of another possibility that Jimmy introduces:”
Right, and this is about the only thing that makes an iota of sense out of these scriptures to me, if they are not literal. But then, this leads to the question of how do you determine which parts of the Bible are not to be taken literal and which parts are?

Aleii:
About:
...and not just dismissively say “God does what He wants”
I can certainly understand where you're coming from. This is not an uncommon dilemma. It is one that many face concerning the faith.
There's often a parallel that's drawn between such crisis of faith to that of the story of Job.
But, you should also take into consideration that God is, in fact, God: Creator of all things.
Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding.
Also, remember, that it was we, as a human race, in its first members, Adam and Eve, who rebelled against God and, therefore, deserve just punishment.
Yet, we see that God is truly a just and, in fact, merciful God even in spite of this since He had sent His Only Son, Jesus, to redeem us.
The following is an extract from Crossing the Threshold of Hope by His Holiness, Pope John Paul II:
God is always on the side of the suffering. His omnipotence is manifested precisely in the fact that He freely accepted suffering. He could have chosen not to do so. He could have chosen to demonstrate His omnipotence even at the moment of the Crucifixion. In fact, it was proposed to Him: "Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross that we may see and believe" (Mk 15:32). But He did not accept that challenge. The fact that He stayed on the Cross until the end, the fact that on the Cross He could say, as do all who suffer: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mk 15:34), has remained in human history the strongest argument. If the agony on the Cross had not happened, the truth that God is Love would have been unfounded. Yes! God is Love and precisely for this He gave His Son, to reveal Himself completely as Love. Christ is the One who "loved to the end" (Jn 13:1). "To the end" means to the last breath. "To the end" means accepting all the consequences of man's sin, taking it upon Himself. This happened exactly as prophet Isaiah affirmed: "It was our infirmities that he bore, /We had all gone astray like sheep, / each following his own way; / But the Lord laid upon him / the guilt of us all" (Is 53:4-6).
So, if you have any doubt regarding the nature of God in these respects, just remember to reflect on the cross.
As far as this particular Old Testament story goes, as I've said previously:
...but killiing the innocent is a different matter.
I agree; which is why when I had initially read this article, at the beginning, I found this quite disconcerting.
Yet, take notice of another possibility that Jimmy introduces:
In this case the commands found in the Pentateuch concerning the Canaanites would not be meant to be taken in a literal sense. We know that the early history in Scripture contains symbolic elements as well as literal ones, and these commands would then turn out to be symbolic.
Presumably, they would symbolize things like the need to be totally separate from pagan culture, of how radically incompatible the pagan lifestyle is with faith in God. On this theory the books of the Pentateuch would have reached their final form some time after the events they describe, and these stories about wiping out the Canaanites (which the Israelites did not actually fulfill; there were still Canaanites living later) were included to teach the later readers how they must reject paganism, and that the original audience was meant to understand the nature of these stories as cautionary tales from which they were to draw a moral lesson (i.e., don't be pagan; stick with God).
This makes sense. Scripture was not written by people in our culture, and so, as a result, it frequently contains figure of speech and symbols and things like that which are not familiar to us -- literal conventions that we don’t use in our writing; and so we might misunderstand what exactly the text originally intended to say to its readers.
For example, if people had read some of the things we've incorporated into our literature, into our language, idioms such as "flogging a dead horse"; wouldn't a person unfamiliar with this expression actually think: "Why the heck would anybody want to flog a dead horse?"
Or, better yet, how about people who "close the stable door after the horse has bolted"?
Posted by: Esau | Feb 1, 2007 4:25:04 PM

Inocencio, I reworded my post, asking that people give me a rational explanation and not just dismissively say “God does what He wants” and “If you don’t understand, you’re wrong”, yet that’s how you responded. Obviously humans can err, and if I didn’t believe that I wouldn’t be posting here asking for explanations.
It seems like you are not taking that quote you posted in the context of my entire post to see I am arguing that it is possibly incorrect to take this story literally. (You state that “if [I] think the Bible is wrong” is not what I am saying, I am saying taking this story literally is possibly wrong.) If you feel the need to state that I need to admit I might be wrong when I say the Bible might not be literal here (do you not understand that I am debating this?), you need to be saying the same thing to Akin, an apologist, as he writes about the possibility of it not being literal as well. I don’t blame you for not knowing the reason why God chose actions that make me physically sick, but I don’t see the point of going in circles with you when you won’t debate my points.
Some Day, how do you determine which parts of the Bible are to be taken literal, and which parts aren’t? Akin doesn’t seem to be so sure that this is to be taken literal, so why are you so sure that it is? I’ll be interested in hearing the results of your research, however to say I can rid myself of the questions and uneasiness about this faith would not be the truth – it is not a light switch I can turn off. I’ve spent the last 12 years unsuccessfully trying to do just that.

CORRIGENDUM:
Again, this can be roughly interpreted to mean:
If we put full trust in God, we shouldn't have anything to fear since He is never one finger-breadth of space nor one minute of time far away from us whom He loves.
I don't know if that makes it any clearer for you -- but there it is.

Mary:
You didn't go as far as taking into consideration the second part of the quote which goes:
...how can you be comfortless in any tribulation, when Christ and his Holy Spirit, and with them their inseparable Father, if you put full trust and confidence in them, are never either one finger-breadth of space nor one minute of time from you?
Again, this can be roughly interpreted to mean:
If you put full trust in God, He is never one finger-breadth of space nor one minute of time far away from you.
In fact, if you go over what he says at the beginning, he mentions just how much God loves us; that He ever keeps watch on those whom He loves and would never leave His loved ones without care or comfort -- especially in the worse times; and that is why he is saying we should not have anything to fear:
For God is, and must be, your comfort, and not I. And he is a sure comforter, who (as he said unto his disciples) never leaveth his servants comfortless orphans, not even when he departed from his disciples by death. But he both sent them a comforter, as he had promised, the Holy Spirit of his Father and himself, and he also made them sure that to the world's end he would ever dwell with them himself.
Again, Mary, doesn't the fact that an Angel actually appeared to Jesus in order to comfort Him during the Agony in the Garden prove the efficacy of this quote?
Now, as for your snotty remark:
I thought you had a background in law
*snort*
Perhaps you should consider that if your guesses about my background are so far off, perhaps your judgment in other matters might need to be revisited
My previous comment was referring to some past posts you've made in other threads -- not an actual assessment or even 'guess' on your background.
Now, on the other hand, if you have anything against what I've said in the past, please, kindly disclose them unless your intention here is simply to be snobbish and insulting.

Again, you refuse to take note of the ENTIRE quote:
Again, you repeat the quote, which still does not invalidate my point, which you are ignoring.
Actually, I'm surprised that you seem to be experiencing such difficulty in digesting long quotes as the one here.
I have read and digested your long quotes, Esau. My problem with your posts is not that I do not understand them, but that -- well, the first one could be misinterpreted. As for this one,
Yet, if somebody truly trusts in God, his/her fear in such times would be negligible, if not, non-existent.
is wrong -- Jesus's fear was obviously not negligible -- and furthermore, it is scandalous, because it is an incitement to despair.
I thought you had a background in law
*snort*
Perhaps you should consider that if your guesses about my background are so far off, perhaps your judgment in other matters might need to be revisited

Aleii,
"I am not saying I am better or wiser than God, I am saying there is a big problem here, and it seems to point to the (literal) Bible being wrong."
I would suggest that if you think the Bible is wrong then you should in humility consider that it is you who are in error. There are many things in life we will not be able to understand completely.
"I have already pointed to the fact that God is perfect, and thus this story makes no sense because it involved more pain than was necessary and more death than was necessary – its uncharacteristic of God."
We are made in the image and likeness of God. We cannot make God into an image we like. You are trying to fit God into your limited definition of logic, justice, and mercy.
Do you really think with our fininte minds we can understand an infinite God or His ways? Since we know God is perfect and good we must always accept His ways as just especially when we can not understand how.
To pretend that we can decide that God is acting uncharacteristically, doesn't that strike you as foolish.
Is it logical in your mind that God the Father sent His only begotten Son to redeem fallen humanity, many of who would reject Him, by his passion, death, resurrection and ascension?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Its not unneccesary for one thing. Merit is not everything, but it could be that that suffering bought them Heaven.
I will research tonight.
Second, I said this part is literal, but not the whole Bible. The 7 days of Creation could be 7000 years or 7 years, but 7 has to do with it.
But when it said He created man, it is literal.
He did not create monkey who became man.
The Apocalypse is a highly metaphorical book.
So high that the Church has not pronounced definite explanations for it completely. Perhaps in the future the Holy Spirit will show us, assuming that He hasn't to someone.
I'll look into it, but rid yourself of that doubting Thomas attitude. Trust that it is just and as it said in the Bible.
God Bless

Some Day said, (regarding original sin quote) “I did not say it is enough for Hell, I said you can’t get into Heaven”.
Not that I’m involving myself in that debate, but scroll up to your previous post before that; you said exactly: “1.Original sin is enough to go to Hell.”
I replied to your post point by point but you are still not providing me with logical answers to mine, you merely keep falling back on “God can do whatever He wants”. You are saying the Bible is literal and inerrant, yet can not answer any of my questions why God chooses option 2 instead of option 1 or 3 that spares pain and suffering and death. You can not tell me any good that came out of children suffering before they died even though I can clearly show you how different, less torturous, options were available to God, and God deliberately picked the one that included seemingly needless anguish. This, right here, is the crux of my issue. That is what I need answered.
I don’t know why you seem so taken aback, by my supposition that the Bible is not to be taken literally, as Akin talked about the potential for the Bible to not be literal in those passages as well. I agree that a supposedly historical text is not supposed to be riddling. I have written a lot about why it is, though.
in•jus•tice
1. the quality or fact of being unjust; inequity.
2. violation of the rights of others; unjust or unfair action or treatment.
3. an unjust or unfair act; wrong.
As to your statement that God can not commit an injustice, I agree, God is supposed to be perfect. No one, however, has shown me how choosing suffering is not unfair, wrong, or a violation of another, therefore I continue to be left to question the Bible as literal.
Yes, I do have a problem with pointless, needless, unasked for, intentional suffering (pain) to another, especially a child. It makes no sense, and since it was deliberate seems all out wrong and evil. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone, anyone who isn’t abhorred by unnecessary pain to a child before their murder. I never said it would be better if God didn’t allow us to sin. I’m not talking about man’s actions, I’m talking about God’s supposed actions that contradict His teachings.
Thanks for trying but this issue has not been cleared up for me in the least.

You also say that original sin is sufficient for hell. I do not agree (at least with the formulation)...
I did not say it is enough for Hell. I said you can't get into Heaven.
You cannot challange the Bible in its events.
That book has a historical nature and not a metaphoric nature as the Apoc., ergo the events are not to be doubted, God said so, they obeyed.
God is INCAPABLE of sin.
Well isn't He omnipotent?
That is a reason why He can't sin.
Sin is the offense of God.
You can't offend yourself in funcion of yourself.
It is offensive because it is contrary to God.
SO GOD CAN'T COMMIT AN INJUSTICE BECAUSE INJUSTICE IS A SIN AND HE CAN'T SIN!
Is that a good enough ergo to help you see.
It is a dangerous path to challange these things.
If you don't understand it does not mean its wrong, and hopefully you aren't being so either.
Oh and when a book is mainly historical, it rarely holds riddling things.
I think you have a problem with the pain.
This world repugnates pain and suffering more than anything.
The Cross. They hate it, they fear it.
"Oh wouldn't it be better if God didn't let us sin or not punish us."
No, it is better the way God wants it.
Just pray:
"Lord, I believe, yet help my incredibleness."
"Lord increase our faith."
Trust in Our Lady. She will help you in this probation.
Auxilium Cristianorum!
Ora Pro Nobis!

Inocencio, it sounds like you have a good heart and are trying to be charitable in your post; I am not saying I am better or wiser than God, I am saying there is a big problem here, and it seems to point to the (literal) Bible being wrong. I have already pointed to the fact that God is perfect, and thus this story makes no sense because it involved more pain than was necessary and more death than was necessary – its uncharacteristic of God. I am looking for any rational, logical answer to my questions that would say otherwise, to help me understand better. These portions of scripture bother me immensely, and to me defy logic and reason if they are literal. People who dismissively say “God can do whatever He wants” and “If you don’t understand, you’re wrong” really don’t help reconcile these problems, and only more serve to make me question them, because if no one can give a logical explanation, that gives credence to the idea that no reasonable explanation exists, which gives credence to the idea that the Bible is not literal here.
Now, another argument which Akin touched on is that it may be the case that some of the Bible is to be thought more of as stories, and not literal truth. However, Akin seems to be more debating the scriptures from an inerrant Bible standpoint which I am arguing against, as the story seems to make no sense if it is to be taken literally, even with Akin’s compensation theories. The only way I could see this story making any iota of sense is if it is not literal, and even then it would still be strange to extract a lesson from.
Vlastimil: thanks for the website. It looks pretty extensive and will take some time to read through thoroughly ;)

1- Under debate
2- ok
3- That is a rather dismissive argument. Akin proposes the compensation reasoning as to why it was OK for God to order horrendous actions on children. This may or may not be the correct answer to the problems that the scripture poses. There may be an entirely different reason out there. I gave an explanation as to why the compensation theory doesn’t hold weight with me. Please respond to that instead of saying that if I don’t understand it that means that I’m incorrect. Akin seems to be saying that these children were “wronged” due to God’s commands, and God compensates them a billion-fold. I’m saying it doesn’t make sense how these children can be wronged by God in the first place if God is supposed to be perfect.
4- The fifth commandment is thou shalt not kill (with exceptions such as self defense). God had a choice, and knows the future. He could 1) wipe them out himself. Or 2) tell humans to wipe them out, which caused great suffering as adults, children, infants were brutally murdered. Or 3) other. Give me a reason how a child suffering before getting murdered by a human is acceptable when there are other options? For example, these children could be taken in and taught Gods’ ways, instead of being murdered. Or God could have poisoned the water or air to cause a quick painless death, etc.
5- The issue is that God seemingly employed a much worse choice than what He could have here. He didn’t have to intervene at all, but God decided to intervene, and God’s choice caused massive suffering, when he could have easily chosen a different way.
6- The issue of what happens to children before the age of reason who die is still up for debate.
7- If you use this argument, you can say that God could have either prevented them from being born, done more to keep Satan out of their lives, ensured that that specific community never formed, etc, instead of commanding mass murder. There are many pain-free options that could have been employed.
8- see 7
9- God knows what is in my heart. I have to ask these questions because they seem horrendously uncharacteristic of God, and seem to be the opposite of what is taught. Dismissive arguments or scare tactics don’t help me feel any better about this nor do they help my diminishing faith in Christianity.
10- see 7

Aleii,
I discuss the problem also with Dave Armstrong at
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/04/open-forum.html
You can take a look.
Currently, I study extensive texts on the topic by Glenn Miller (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hway.html ), too.

Some Day,
I do not take my arguments as really showing from true (or probable) premises that God is unjust. I merely use them as a presentation of a problem.
Thanks for that point 6.
You also say that original sin is sufficient for hell. I do not agree (at least with the formulation). See http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/ORIGSIN.TXT by Wm. Most, SJ. (Note: Mr. Most IS orthodox. See http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/start.cfm .)

On the other hand:
Melchi-Zedek means: King (Melchi) of Righteousness.

SomeDay-
Remember:
Jeru, City
Salem, Peace.
Thus, Jeru-salem means: City of Peace

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