The Nature of the Second Coming

by Jimmy Akin on March 2, 2007

in Theology

A reader writes:

I am a Protestant who has recently been awakening to a newfound appreciation for the Catholic Church and her teaching.

For four or five years now my views have been solidly of the "full preterist" persuasion (heretical – yes, I know).  Lately I’ve distanced myself somewhat from these views. Here’s where I am now: I still cannot read the Biblical passages which explicitly refer to the return of the Lord as referring to a yet future event.  The Olivet Discourse, and much (though I would not say all) of the Apocalypse seem to me to be about events that were quickly closing in on the Apostolic church.  That said, I believe that we are definitely living "between the times" in that the kingdom of God is a present but mysterious reality which has yet to reach its fullness, and I believe that Christ is the bringer of this fullness.  I also believe that everyone (past/present/future) has been and/or will be judged according to there deeds, and that Christ is the bringer of this judgment.

So, now to the question(s).  What does it mean to confess with the Catholic Church that Christ will return?  Must it mean that I picture Him coming bodily on a cloud and doing certain things (I think a lot of Protestants have Him throwing fireballs at people)?  Or rather, in confessing this could I be confessing Him to be the future bringer of the fullness of the kingdom and judgment, but maintain an element of mystery as to how this will actually look (perhaps it will be bodily and on a cloud but like I said, I read no Biblical passages which make me think it MUST be this way).  What is the dogma of the Church on the meaning of "He will come again?"  I ask this question humbly and honestly because if my faith were to continue along the path it seems now to be on I would not want to be dishonest or less than genuine in anything that I confess (I mean, if you have to qualify the hell out of something can you really say you believe it?)

I want to thank the reader for his openness to Catholic thought and for his honesty and conscientiousness about wanting to make a sincere profession of faith and not deprive doctrines of their meaning via reinterpretation.

For those who may not be aware, "full preterism"–sometimes also referred to as "pantelism" (by its critics)–is, so I understand, the position that all biblical prophecy has already been fulfilled, including the Second Coming and the resurrection of the dead. Obviously, these would have had to have been fulfilled in ways that differ markedly from the way Christians have historically understood them. This position, being contrary to the Creed’s confession of both a future Second Coming and a future resurrection, is materially heretical. Consequently, I’m glad to hear that the reader has begun distancing himself from it.

Regarding passages like the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24-25) that deal with the Second Coming, I would urge the reader to consider this possibility: If you look at the passage in question, much of the material does indeed refer to events that occurred in the early Church and, to my mind, in the first century. This includes some of the passages speaking of a coming of Christ, but not to all of them. There is a distinction to be made between the various ways that Christ "comes" to his people (in blessing or in judgment; just as Scripture speaks of God "coming" to his people in these ways) and the final, definitive Second Coming.

The Olivet Discourse begins with Jesus predicting the destruction of the Temple and then the disciples ask him two things: (1) When will this happen? (2) What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

What follows is a discourse in which Matthew organizes the prophetic teachings of Christ, including drawing together material that is found at various places in Luke. It seems to me that, in reflecting on this material, there is a marked difference between the material in chapter 24 and that in chapter 25.

The chapter 24 material is much more concrete and specific, whereas the material in chapter 25 is expressly parabolic, involving the parable of the ten virgins, the parable of the talents, and the parable of the sheep and the goats.

I would hypothesize that the material in chapter 24 answers the disciples first question–"When will these things (the destruction of the temple) be?"–and the material in chapter 25 deals with the Second Coming, which is by its nature an event that cannot be described in the kind of concrete terms that we find in chapter 24. It’s too far outside the realm of human experience, making it more suited to parabolic treatment.

Whether the reader finds this interpretation convincing is not essential, though. The Church does not mandate a particular interpretation of these texts. What it does insist on is that there is a future Second Coming that will involve a radical rupture in the present world order and usher in a new and eternal state.

A significant text which seems to bear on this future coming (as opposed to other, non-definitive "comings," such as a coming in judgment on Jerusalem in A.D. 70) is found in Acts 1:

6: So when they had come together,  they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to  Israel?"
7: He said to them, "It is not for you to know  times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority. 
8:
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and
you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Sama’ria
and to the end of the earth."
9: And  when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up,  and a cloud took him out of their sight.
10: And while they  were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them  in white robes,
11:
and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This
Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way
as you saw him go into heaven."

      

This seems to indicate that Christ’s future, definitive coming will in one respect be an inverse of the Ascension. That is, just as Christ manifestly and bodily ascended into heaven, at his final and definitive coming he will manifestly and bodily descend from heaven. It is this manifest bodily descent that seems to mark the Second Coming in distinction from all other conceivable comings of Christ (e.g., coming in a vision, visiting blessing or judgment on a people without bodily descending from heaven, coming in the Eucharist in bodily but not manifest manner).

The fact that Christ will be reunited with us in a manifest and bodily fashion at the Second Coming does not mean that the event must be understood reductionistically, as it is sometimes understood in Fundamentalist circles, as if Jesus will return to the earth like an astronaut returning from space (but without the space capsule). The event will represent such a massive rupture with the present world order such that the laws of space and time as we presently understand them are likely to no longer apply.

For example, Scripture speaks of the day of judgment in ways that strongly suggest that the current rules of space and time will not apply. It is hard to imagine, for example, that Jesus will actually judge billions of people in a 24 hour period, reviewing their smallest deeds and making them publicly known to everyone ("what you have whispered in the ear will be shouted from the housetops"), literally dividing billions of people onto his right and left, etc. If we really do have a whole-life review and experience not only our own review and judgment but have awareness of the content of others’ reviews and judgments then this strongly suggests we will occupy a mode of existence that is so vastly different from our current experience that it can scarcely be conceived at present, and certainly the language used to describe it in Scripture must be handled with a significant degree of caution about the mystery that is being described.

Ultimately, the precise mechanics of the Second Coming, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment, and the eternal order on the new heaven and the new earth must be left up to God. While we have indications of what aspects of these will be like, and while we know they will be bodily and future events, their precise constitution is something that we likely cannot even conceive at present, and the Church does not attempt to settle these matters in detail.

So I would say that much of what the reader is presently thinking is in line with Catholic thought. He acknowledges that there is a future and definitive aspect to these realities. What I would recommend that he contemplate (as he may already be doing) is that these realities will have a bodily dimension, even if it is a mode of bodily existence that presently exceeds our ability to imagine.

Hope this helps!

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I am a former Full Preterist and have recently published an article to my blog on why I can no longer accept that position. This may be something you may want to check out.
http://www.shadowsofthecross.com/

So, now to the question(s). What does it mean to confess with the Catholic Church that Christ will return? Must it mean that I picture Him coming bodily on a cloud and doing certain things (I think a lot of Protestants have Him throwing fireballs at people)?
This CRACKS me up!
It reminds me so much of the STREETFIGHTER II video game that was popular back in the days!
I can just imagine it:
Sagat vs. Jesus!

Check this link out.
Now tell me, does this not look splendorous, without being tradox and following the new Mass?
http://www.arautos.org.br/defaultb.asp?area=8

He just is making enemies with now rational purpose.
Why argue things HE does not even know about?!

So stop making enemies for free.
You mean we can charge John per calumny?
Can we do that with some of the other folks and trolls who periodically surface?

Hey John,
You are allowed to question the tendencial errors of the liturgy as they are de facto.
But NEVER the validity of the Mass.
Remember Our Lord gave the sacramental words in Aramaic, so they have come a long way, and Latin was not the original. And the other Rites are not in Latin either.
So stop making enemies for free.

John,
You should audition for Jay Leno as you seem to be a comic
Thanks for the tip! I didn't know he had auditions.
It is very simple-Pope Paul VI did not call the new mass the "Novus Ordo" or "New Order" for nothing!
You mean he called the new order a new order for some reason other than it is a new order? Fascinating!
It is right out of the Masonic battle cry of Novus Ordo Seclorum or as JPII was so good at saying "New World Order"
Oh, I love a good conspiracy theory, and with masonic overtones to boot. You must be salivating over the impending publication of Dan Brown's new book, which I understand will lay bare all of the masonic secrets!
Maybe if you take a look at the Vatican archives and if you dont know Italian, have someone translate for you!!!
OK. Are there some secret codes I need to be on the lookout for?

I stand corrected-he wrote this one in Latin
Unfortunatly the church no longer teaches the seminarians Latin and they are ignorant to be able to even read anything before Vatican II
Evey question why? Maybe they dont want them to know they have been living a lie and spoon fed all of this garbage

"It is very simple-Pope Paul VI did not call the new mass the "Novus Ordo" or "New Order" for nothing! It is right out of the Masonic battle cry of Novus Ordo Seclorum or as JPII was so good at saying "New World Order""
Ay-ai-ai-ai-ai!

Esquire
You should audition for Jay Leno as you seem to be a comic
It is very simple-Pope Paul VI did not call the new mass the "Novus Ordo" or "New Order" for nothing! It is right out of the Masonic battle cry of Novus Ordo Seclorum or as JPII was so good at saying "New World Order"
Maybe if you take a look at the Vatican archives and if you dont know Italian, have someone translate for you!!!
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/speeches...

"And we know that a mass is not a mass without a true sacrifice and that makes the New Mass questionable at best"
John,
wWhen you speak calumny against my GOD'S sacrifice, I MUST PROTEST!!!
As your brother in Christ, I must warn you that denying the reality Our LORD'S sacrifice in the Novus Ordo is heresy!

Esquire -- damn you're good!
Keep up the excellent work!
I LOVE that point-by-point refutation style of yours!

The Council of Trent clearly defined what constitutes the sacrament of transubstantion (even care to read such)...
Yes, many times.
...and if anything, the New Mass and new words of consecration (invalid form)...
Care to elaborate?
...not to mention probably 50% (my guess here) of the priests themselves who dont believe in transubstantion...
Care to substantiate?
...(making the intention invalid) and who knows how many times grape juice or whatever has been substituted making the matter invalid.
You are correct that grape juice is invalid matter. And while I have no doubt this has been attempted by some, I have yet to run into it.
And we know that a mass is not a mass without a true sacrifice and that makes the New Mass questionable at best
OK, you missed a step there.
And in any event, questionable by whom? Devotees of human tradition? So-called "traditionalists" who place more stock in the look and feel of things than in obedience to the Church and the Magisterium?
It was never the Council fathers in their reform of the liturgy to keep the sacrifice of the Mass intact,...
This clause is grammatically challenged. Did you mean to say that the Council fathers never meant to keep the sacrifice of the Mass intact? If so, can you provide a citation, or better yet a link, to your source for that one?
... it is clear in the original Novus Ordo instructions of 1969, the new mass was supposed to "re-enact" the last supper and be a "memorial" only.
Let's take this in baby steps. Tell me why you think your understanding is "clear." Citations and links, again, would be helpful.
The Ottavani intervention is clear on this fact.
Again, explaining why you think your interpretation is "clear" would greatly aid the analysis.
The New Mass is as close to a protestant service as one can get without being Protestant
Actually, I can get one step closer. Traditional-looking worship services performed by excommunicated Catholics who have substituted their judgment on what is "Catholic" for that of the Holy Father and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

not to mention probably 50% (my guess here) of the priests themselves who dont believe in transubstantion (making the intention invalid)
Even though I don't believe John's statement here to actually be true, there is such a thing called: Ex Opere Operato
That is, the grace of a sacrament is always conferred by the sacrament itself.
Hence, ex opere operato literally means “from the work performed.”

John,
I'll try to keep it simple for you, since you seem to have completely missed the point of my post (no doubt due to a lack of clarity on my part).
Traditions performed apart from the Church are "human traditions," no matter how much they look like "divine traditions."
You seem to be more infatuated with the traditions of men than the Tradition of the Church. In fact, your utter contempt for the heirarchy of the last 40 years is the very root of Modernism condemned by St. Pope Pius X.
Ironic, isn't it?

Esquire
You make no sense, with all due respect
The Council of Trent clearly defined what constitutes the sacrament of transubstantion (even care to read such) and if anything, the New Mass and new words of consecration (invalid form), not to mention probably 50% (my guess here) of the priests themselves who dont believe in transubstantion (making the intention invalid) and who knows how many times grape juice or whatever has been substituted making the matter invalid. And we know that a mass is not a mass without a true sacrifice and that makes the New Mass questionable at best
It was never the Council fathers in their reform of the liturgy to keep the sacrifice of the Mass intact, it is clear in the original Novus Ordo instructions of 1969, the new mass was supposed to "re-enact" the last supper and be a "memorial" only. The Ottavani intervention is clear on this fact.
The New Mass is as close to a protestant service as one can get without being Protestant

To elaborate briefly, what makes a tradition a divine one instead of a human one is its connection to the Church. The very same action performed in the Church is essentially different than the same action performed outside the Church.
I, for example, could stand at an altar in a nominally Catholic Church, with bread, wine and all the liturgical accompaniments, and recite precisely the pre-Vatican II words of consecration, all to no effect. 0r at least no good effect, because I am not acting with the Church or in. My actions would be very "traditional," but separated from the Church, and thus from Tradition, they would only be traditional in the human sense, not the divine sense.
SSPX and other traditional-ist organizations are "traditional" in much the same sense, but separated from the Church their "traditions" have lost their divine characteristic. This is why some have chosen to refer to them as something other than simply "traditional" -- such as "radical traditionals" or "traditionalists."

John,
It is very very clear what St Paul has warned us to do to be saved, but the great apostasy and falling away seems to be underway and one can only wait for the great chastisment.
Of course, St. Paul also recommends that while one is waiting for the great chastisement, he should stay faithful to the Church and remain united to the Apostles and the Vicar of Christ.
You, John, seem to be more infatuated with the traditions of men than the Tradition of the Church. In fact, your utter contempt for the heirarchy of the last 40 years is the very root of Modernism condemned by St. Pope Pius X.
Ironic, isn't it?

JR Posted:
"linked]John wrote "In February 2, 1986, he was marked with cow dung, the "Tilac," the sign of the adorers of the pagan goddess Shiva, by a Hindu priestess at Bombay."
It was pointed out to John months ago that Shiva is a male god not a goddess, that the tilac while Hindu in origin lacks distinct religious meaning anymore and is done by people of any religion, and that the woman who marked the Pope with it was an Indian Catholic. "
THE QUESTION IS-WHAT DIFFERENCE IF IT IS A MALE OR FEMALE GOD? Why get anything on your forehead?Would any Pope participate in such scandal before V2?
Esau-You once again fail as an Apologist. I placed scripture in front of you from St Paul warning us to hold fast to Tradition as one can not trust man, and you act like a child again. You are basically just a cut and paste job

I was looking over what has been written above and just want to point out this one thing. I need to go to bed so I don't have time to respond to more but I could.
[linked]John wrote "In February 2, 1986, he was marked with cow dung, the "Tilac," the sign of the adorers of the pagan goddess Shiva, by a Hindu priestess at Bombay."
It was pointed out to John months ago that Shiva is a male god not a goddess, that the tilac while Hindu in origin lacks distinct religious meaning anymore and is done by people of any religion, and that the woman who marked the Pope with it was an Indian Catholic. The fact that he has repeated this refuted calumny against a deceased Pope suggests carelessness if not worse things about John.

THE END OF THE WORLD IS HERE -- REALIST AND JOHN JTNOVA HAS JOINED FORCES!!!!
BOTH THE RAD TRAD & THE CROSSAN DISCIPLE!!!
AHHHHH!!!!
REPENT YE SINNERS -- THE END DRAWS NEAR!!!

John,
Matthew 23:32-33
/ /32/ Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors. /33/ You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell? /
I assume you meant Matthew 24:42- see http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb188.html for an "op-ed".

"...whom the Lord Jesus shall kill...with the brightness of his coming." (2 Thess. II,8) DR Bible
From the above, when Our Lord returns, he shall slay the Antichrist. In the DR bible footnote 3 confirms that the Antichrist will be a particular man and it is of Faith that when Christ returns it shall be at the end of time. Therefore, if the Antichrist is to be slain and is a man, he must be in power for Christ to slay him. For that to take place and prophesy fulfilled, the only things that can take place after the antichrist is slain is the end of the world, judgement, Heaven and Hell.
St Paul in Thessalonians makes it very clear in 2Thessalonains where he says "and then that wicked one shall be revealed..whose coming is according to the working of satan, in all power and signs of lying wonders, and in all seductions....because they receive not the love of truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying....Therefore bretheren, stand fast and hold the TRADITIONS which you have learned, whether by WORD or by EPISTLE".
It is very very clear what St Paul has warned us to do to be saved, but the great apostasy and falling away seems to be underway and one can only wait for the great chastisment.
Christ himself warned us that no one knows the day and hour, not even the angels of heaven but the Father only (Matthew 23:33).

Concerning the Anti-Christ:
1John 2:18   Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
1John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
2John 7   For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
It is clear it was the "last hour" in the 1st century (see also Heb 1:2, Acts 2:16-17) and it is equally as clear that the "antichrists" were in the 1st century (1st century non-believing Jews - 1 John 2:19).
The end referred to throughout the entire NT is the end of the Old Covenant world of Israel. It has nothing to do with the physical material world.
Is it not clear from passages such as Isaiah 51:16:
“I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’”
that when God called Israel out of Egypt he was creating Israel's "Heaven and Earth" (their "world" - Old Covenant world)? This is the "world" that was coming (Heb 8:13, 1 Cor 7:31) to an end in the 1st century. This was a world ruled by "the sin" and "the death" due to the Law . Christ was born into this "world", "according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3, Gal 4:4), and it was this "world" that Christ died to. He was resurrected "according to the Spirit" (Romans 1:4) to usher in a "new heaven and earth" (the New Covenant), one where righteousness dwelled (2 Peter 3:13). That is why Paul could say "even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. (2 Cor 5:16). To look and long for Christ to return in his physical fleshly body, is to seek Christ "according to the flesh", which would be a return to a world of the sin and the death. Personally, I prefer Christ "according the spirit", which is life and righteousness.

Jimmy, I am a non-Catholic "partial preterist" (using common vernacular though I personally reject that label), and I am curious as to what grounds you would claim hyperpreterism to be heretical as a Catholic? I agree with you, and I know how I would answer that question if I were you, but I am dialoging with a Catholic on this issue who argues that hyperpreterism is not heretical in Catholicism, and I must not be communicating myself clearly because he has not gotten the point, and is an intelligent thinker. I am hoping perhaps you can communicate your thoughts that might be helpful for me to point out in dialog. Although honestly it seems quite exasperatingly self-evident on several levels.

Sorry, that last Fr. Iannuzzi/Faustina comment was mine!

A. Williams:
Thanks for understanding where I was coming from!
It's just all those poor parishes that have been closing down these days and, not to mention, the dilemma of their faithful parishoners who had been attending those parishes for many, many years -- these good and devoted Catholic folks certainly don't deserve any of this!
I know of old folks who may never be able to attend Mass perhaps ever again since their local parish had closed down and the next church to them is just too far away from where they live. Being that they have no other family but themselves (in some cases, their kids are either living too far away from them -- even in another state), they're, thus, unable to get there as they cannot drive themselves since, for one, they have no such means of personal transportation and also being that they're confined to their walkers and wheelchairs, they wouldn't even be able to drive anyway due to their bodily afflictions.
John neglects the fact that the monies that go into the collection basket actually have a certain portion distributed to such ailing parishes in order to help them stay alive.

Esquire,
It seemed that in what I quoted, Jimmy was suggesting the experience of general judgement is tangibly inconceivable. I was pointing out that we do have access to a type of that experience in the internet age, but that this type is devoid of Christ's mercy.

Tim,
In a further analysis of the 'loosening of the conscience' that we now date pimarily to the 60's, we really need to take a broader look at all the event's of the '60's and 70's, to really understand how such a 'flood' of 'liberal inculturation' could possible take place. Was it really a result of Vatican II, or were there many other 'sparks' that set this 'fire of liberalism', and 'loose' moral living, off.
Really, living in the heart of 'the '60's'(in San Francisco), and having my best friends living 1 block from the famed streets HAIGHT and ASHBURY (those friends being the Sisters of Perpetual Adoration, who I have known since an infant), I can only say what most others of this generation already know...that the liberalism was in NO WAY confined to the Catholic Church, but swept over the Church like a wave, as it did ALL INSTITUTIONS, wherein the Church was in a postion of analysing the novel event, and was incapable of responding rapidly to so many extreme societal changes.
And I can remember well the days before the late sixties, and my family also, and we were all largely affected by the previous Amewrican wars, and especially WWII. People were really very obedient to authority, and the Church too, in those days, and I think it was a result of the obedience demanded by the military, which was necessary to win in the wars we were involved in. But as we all know, Vientnam changed everything! Before Vietnam, The haircuts were very often the popular 'crew cut'. But during and after the war, the protest movement's and 'hippi' movements made a very powerful statement AGAINST authority. First it was only political, but the spiritual and moral authority found in the Church became a 'by product'.
Furthermore 'crew cuts' didn't go well with wide flange 'Bell bottoms'! And the music of the Greatful Dead, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors and Led Zepplin also didn't help in supporting the short cropped, 'square' hair styles of the late 50's early 60's, so popular to the militaristically 'obedient' generation that'kicked Hilter's a--' so-to-say. So, people, like my father, could never get rid of this 'victoious' and 'winning', attitude, and considered EVERYTHING socially modern to be completely crazy. Likewize, my'Hippi' friends thought people like my parents to be completely 'square' and brain washed, and referred even to their parents, not as my mother and father..but in language such as "my ole lady" and "my old man". Such was the culturale divide that pitted ALL AUTHORITY, even mother and father, against the younger,'hip' generation.
So with the entire young generation wearing bell bottoms(countless with red,white and blue, 'peace','smiley', or marijuana leaf patches).. sporting shoulder length hair and large'afros'... and listening to an ever more psycodelic 'acid' rock music...anything that didn't fit in to this new culture of free lovin' and groovin', was OUT!
And nothing was more 'square' or 'un-Hip' as the CATHOLIC CHURCH, with their 'crew cut' cropped priests! And In 1966, ALL the women wore their jackelin Kennedy type bonnet hats to Mass..many with white gloves also. In 1972, NO ONE wore ANY hat to mass (except maybe for the senior citizens). And this, 'get rid of the hats' cultural fad, affected even the religious orders, and so the 'religious hats'(ie. nuns habits), for the most part, either came off or were adapted very greatly to a much looser, more modern, style.
And the strangest thing of all, is that the wild revolution of the 'hippies', really only lasted a few years! After the 'Summer of Love' the hippies began to grow tired of all the drugs, parties, non-stop rock and roll, lack of stable living quarters, lack of organization and jobs,...and really, for the most part, corrected themselves. Moreover, when the hippies started to make money, many cut off their ponytails and joined the Republican party! They did a turn around...they largely learned by their own bad experience!
The problem is that the Church followed behind society in all of these cultural changes. It didn't dive into them so deeply, as did the hippies, as to learn quickly how 'errant', dangerous and unhealthy, such 'loose living' really was. And so the Church, at least in San Francisco, maintained a smoldering liberalism almost up to this present day...however, decreasing in intensity, by degrees, every year. So the Church is really very slow to react, and now the Chruch is only starting to adequately address and correct the 'errors' of those days.
However, not EVERYTHING was wrong with the looser, anti militaristic (Peace) out-looks of modern culture, and also some of the modern infuences and adaptations that affected the Catholic Church. What was needed is to separate the good infuences from the bad.
And now Pope Benedict XVI is trying to 'pick out the weeds', and 'keep the wheat', so to say, of all these modern issues an cultural changes.
And really, the job is a rather 'monumental' one, after all these 40 years of habitual moral, ethical and liturgical abuses. But, fortunately this reform IS being done! It might take some time, but the world and Church, once it is completed, might even come out the stronger for it? Who knows?
May God give strength to Pope Benedict XVI to continue 'full steam ahead' the 'reform' and correction of all of these, both cultural and religious, excesses and errors!

Caine,
Well said. Well said. (Although I'm a bit puzzled at how what you said contests Jimmy's comment.)

If we really do have a whole-life review and experience not only our own review and judgment but have awareness of the content of others' reviews and judgments then this strongly suggests we will occupy a mode of existence that is so vastly different from our current experience that it can scarcely be conceived at present,
I'd like to contest this comment of Jimmy's just a bit. We know based on Matthew 25 that all of us can expect to be surprise by where we did or did not follow Christ in our lives - not by some mystical revelation with magical smoke and lights, but by a simple viewing of our lives aligned to the perspective of Christ. This is, after-all, the goal of all Christians. In the moment of particular judgment Jesus will realize that goal for each individual (whether we're ready or not!)
On to my point about general judgment. I think we DO have an insight into this mystery - more so today that at any time in history. On the grand scale, think of people like Hitler and Stalin. Their atrocities are laid out in volume after volume of published works. Their stories are taught with a focus on the evil they have done. We don't read about the beginnings of who they were in the eyes of those who loved them as infants, or the totality of their lives from the perspective of God. No, they get (and deservedly so) the full treatment of the accuser in the court of public opinion.
But today, there is also the potential for everyone to be exposed to this treatment. Think of the American Idol contestant who recently had her "girls gone wild" moments obsessed over in all forms of media. Or those men caught by that NBC sex predator show. For that matter, what about all the priests that have been exposed by the abuse scandal?
These are individual people whose sins are shown to millions of strangers in an instant - and millions immediately judge them based on these mass-media expositions. To me, it is a foretaste of what's to come for all of us at the end but with a purpose and direction that is much more dangerous for us all. The final judgment will be conducted in the court of Truth, by He who is both Truth and Mercy, and who is the source of our SALVATION! In the E-world we live in, the court is conducted by the prince of this world, whose accusations rally the guilty to judge the guilty and then perpetually turn upon each other in public bonfires often fueled by dishonesty. His goal is not our salvation, but that we look in the mirror; see our disfigurement, despair and die.
This is why we should think twice before piling on people whose horrible sins are publicly exposed. The devil will be more than happy to put each of us through that kind of public scrutiny.

Tim J.,
Thanks.
I think the salient point about the whole Primacy of Conscience crisis is that it started in the late Sixties.
I think you're right for the latest iteration. Of course we have to follow our conscience, but the beauty of the Church is that by following its lead on matters of faith and morals, I can have a clean conscience. (In fact, I would argue that it's the only way that I can have a clean conscience.)
It is one of God's greatest gifts to us, and we reject His gifts at our peril.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1969ottoviani.h...
Right from the Ottavani intervention, which of course the Pope and the Protestant/liberal wing of the church ignord even though so many voted either against or yes with reservations
Cardinal Ottaviani was head of the Holy Office during the reign of Pope Pius XII. He, Cardinal Bacci, and a group of Roman theologians opposed many of the changes brought about by the Second Vatican Council, especially in the case of the later changes to Catholic liturgy. This opposition was not effective - Catholic liturgical practice changed throughout the world.
The Critical Study of the New Order of Mass:
5 June 1969
A Group of Roman Theologians
In October 1967, the Synod of Bishops which met in Rome was asked to pass judgment on an experimental celebration of what was then called a "standard" or "normative" Mass. This Mass, composed by the Committee for Implementing the Constitutions on the Sacred Liturgy (Consilium), aroused very serious misgivings among the bishops present. With 187 members voting, the results revealed considerable opposition (43 Negative), many substantial reservations (62 Affirmative with reservations) and four abstentions. The international press spoke of the Synod's "rejection" of the proposed Mass, while the progressive wing of the religious press passed over the event in silence. A well-known periodical, aimed at bishops and expressing their teaching, summed up the new rite in these terms:
"They wanted to make a clean slate of the whole theology of the Mass. It ended up in substance quite close to the Protestant theology which destroyed the sacrifice of the Mass."

And I say again
What exactly then needed updating, and why then was the liturgy changed?
And this misinterpretation line is plain old nonsense because if the church of Vatican II really cared and took the liturgy serious, it would issue a so called "clarification"(why was there also a need to change the wording-both FORM and MATTER?? of all of the sacraments as well????)
If you go back to the council of Trent, the council is very clear as to what the mass is supposed to represent, the sacrifice of the mass in its unbloody form with a spotless victim, our Lord
The instructions for the Novus Ordo missae issued in 1969 states and I am going from memory (sorry Esau I dont have cut and pastes all over like you!) that the mass is a "recreation of the Lords Supper" and makes no mention of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The liturgy and its intention was made clear infallibly in the Council of Trent, and was totally disregarded by this council of V2
Paul VI made it clear he wanted the mass to resemble the Protestant service, and he did just that

Esquire, your last post was spot-on.
I think the salient point about the whole Primacy of Conscience crisis is that it started in the late Sixties.
It's not so much that Rahner overstepped or even that Church teaching was unclear, but that SO MANY Catholics were primed and frothing for any loophole they could exploit to advance the modernist agenda. That's what the Church missed. So many Catholics had already left the Church in their hearts, and were only looking for a way to justify their behavior and convince themselves (no matter what kind of doctrinal fantasyland they had to construct in their heads) they could somehow remain a "Catholic" while doing whatever they pleased.

I'll defend the 'Bold' emphasis in Esau's case. Everyone has a particular style in expressing opinions...and everyone knows that debates aren't ALWAYS pure logic and reason. Emotion and emphasis has always been a part of rhetoric, and even the rhetoric we find in the scripture.
How often did Jesus use words such as : "Amen, Amen I say to unto you!" ..which is a very emphatic means of expressing his teachings. And again How many times did He use the word Hypocrite? ..For example:
"You hypocrites, you know how to discern the face of the heaven and of the earth: but how is it that you do not discern this time?"
"But Jesus knowing their wickedness, said: Why do you tempt me, ye hypocrites?"
"But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter."
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: because you devour the houses of widows, praying long prayers. For this you shall receive the greater judgment."
" Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves."
And there are 11 other similar quotes of Jesus.
And how emphatic was St. John the Baptist in his preaching by the Jordan.. "And in those days cometh John the Baptist preaching in the desert of Judea. 'A voice of one crying in the desert, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight his paths.'" The word "crying" here, obviously signifies 'emphasis' and even 'BOLD'. (however, we must admit that not all evangelists of or apologists adopt this style of Jesus and John. ie we all have our own rhetorical approaches in accordance with what the Holy Spirit provides us.)
So, if it's good enough for Jesus and St.John to be highly emphatic, at times, it certainly has a place, when needed, in Catholic apologetics. But then again thats only IMHO.

Esau, I agree with what you say, but am also going to make some chamomile tea for you and suggest that you consider fasting from caps and bold this Lent. Now where did I put the chamomile tea?

JOHN:
You are the most DISHONEST person I've met on the blog.
At the very least, when you confront REALIST with what he wrote in his posts, he hardly denies it and, in fact, doesn't resort to the ludicrous transgiversation that you often fall back on in your replies.
LOOK AT WHAT YOU WROTE PREVIOUSLY:
The New Mass DELETED upwards of 30 prayers, shortened the mass, introduced novelties never seen before such as hand holding during the Our Father which I may add even the Most ardent supporter of the new mass HATES, did away with kneelers and the Eucharistic MINISTERS (Protestant word I must point out)and so on. And what prayers that were decided to be kept they changed those to, even the Apostles Creed as well as the Words of Consecration, which the ICEL still cant get correct over 40 years later!!
Posted by: John | Feb 28, 2007 2:18:08 PM"

As I've said in my previous post, all these abuses that have been occuring these days, couldn't it possibly be due to the fact that people such as yourselves didn't actually READ the Vatican II documents or even made any effort to FIND OUT WHAT VATICAN II ACTUALLY SAID/TAUGHT, but INSTEAD, FORMED THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS and DID AS THEY WANTED!
Further, how can you still insist on DENYING the Authority of the Council and that of the Pope?
It still boggles the mind that you and your RAD TRAD groupees seem to still actually claim to be Traditionalists when you and your cohorts don't even adhere to this essential and fundamental part of Traditional Church Teaching!
As Cardinal Ratzinger said:
Whoever denies Vatican II denies the authority that upholds all other councils, namely the Pope and the council of bishops.
As for folks being surprised that you actually SUPPORTED REALIST --
To me, that's HARDLY A SURPRISE!
RAD TRADS and Others like you would actually SUPPORT THE DEVIL HIMSELF if it came right down to it JUST TO SPITE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH and WATCH HER FALL!
And to think that in other threads you were saying how disgusted you were that so many Catholic churches were closing down -- only to write a post on this thread which actually promotes the closing down of Catholic churches by YOUR telling folks not to financially support their Catholic parishes!
DO YOU EVEN KNOW HOW MANY CATHOLIC PARISHES ARE IN DESPARATE NEED OF OUR FINANCIAL SUPPORT IN ORDER TO STAY ALIVE???
YOU DAMN HYPOCRITE!
IN ALL ACTUALITY, YOU ONLY PRETENDED IN OTHER THREADS TO CARE ABOUT HOW SEVERAL CATHOLIC CHURCHES WERE CLOSING DOWN.
BUT, REALLY, YOU COULD CARE LESS!

John,
You're kind of missing the point. There is one person on this earth at any given time who sits in the Chair of Peter. One. We are assured that his teaching is reliable, and that if we follow him (not just on infallible matters, but on what he teaches about faith and morals) we are on sure footing. The Holy Spirit is kind of funny that way.
His teaching is what we test our own newfangled or oldfangled opinions against. If I think Trent said X and he says it meant Y, I go with him. If he says the Church teaches Z and I thought it always taught Q, I go with Z. And if he says the Cubs are going to win the world series, I know that it was really the Holy Spirit at work in Y and Z, because the man is obviously not bright enough on his own to rule the Church. (But then again, no one is.)
If I found my opinions about what the Church teaches to be so at odds with what the Pope says the Church teaches, and I was at all serious about my Catholic faith, I would be far more terrified about the state of my own soul than I would be about the souls of others.

"Vatican II sought to restate and update Catholic moral teaching"
This thread is not about V2-But what exactly needed "updating" and if the council was indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit-could its teachings be so misinterpreted and abused to promulgate such error and abuse, such as the liturgy and ecumenism -which though meant for Christian unity somehow by the Pope himself (JPII) was used to participate in vodoo, pygmy, Buddhist, Hindu, Moslem, Jewish and of course Protestant worship
One is not to follow someone to hell-the first commandment is very clear regarding the worship of false idols, and when the Vicar of Christ himself participates in such, one must scratch ones head

John and Esau,
Since much of your back and forth debating revolves around Vatican II issues, I thought you might like to read something on this topic, posted on Zenit, March 3rd 2007.
Bishop Fisher on Conscience and Authority
"Struggling to Recover a Catholic Sense"
2.3 Conscience versus the magisterium after Vatican II
Around the time of Vatican II, Karl Rahner wrote that conscience is the proximate source of moral obligation, and so must be followed even if mistaken; but that we must form our conscience rightly and avoid confusing it with subjective inclination or personal preference. A Catholic must be prepared to accept moral instruction from the Church and never appeal to conscience to make an exception for himself. If we realized that we may very well have to sacrifice everything or lose our soul, then we would not look for exceptions to be made for us from God's law and our confessors would not use evasions like "follow your conscience" when some hard if sensitive teaching were needed. If in our sinful world God's law seems unrealistic, the trouble is not with God's law but with the world!
The early Rahner wrote on the verge of a new age in which Christian ethics faced challenges from many quarters, not least from within the Church. Vatican II sought to restate and update Catholic moral teaching. Though aware of the growing individualism and relativism, the Council seemed optimistic to the point of naïveté about how their words would be received. Many people took up the Council's views on the dignity and liberty of conscience with greater enthusiasm than they did its teaching on the duty to inform conscience and exercise that liberty in accord with moral absolutes known to right reason and proclaimed by the magisterium.
The "crisis of '68" was a crisis at least in part over the meaning of conscience, its implications for decision-making and its relationship to the magisterium. In the 1970s a number of theologians proceeded to deny that the Scriptures, the Tradition and the hierarchy have any "strong" magisterium in moral matters. The "situationists" echoed the contemporary exaltation of human freedom and rejection of appeals to nature, reason, authority or any static, universal or objectivist standards; what mattered, in the end, was whether the person's "heart was in the right place." The "proportionalists" asserted that the role of conscience was to identify and balance upsides and downsides of options and that the Church could propose some "rules of thumb" for this balancing act, but no moral absolutes. Some argued that it was impossible for the Church to teach infallibly in morals; others said that while it could in principle, it never had done so; and both agreed that the ordinary teaching of the Church is "susceptible to error and therefore fallible."
We are all well aware of how thoroughly the 1970s-'80s style of moral thinking filtered down through many of our societies, even if it was rarely dressed up in the highfalutin language of "ontic evils" and "authenticity." In a slightly more sophisticated form it was taught to a generation of priests and lay theology students. It will take some time to recover a more Catholic sense of the role and content of conscience and the magisterium.
For more on this go to www.ZENIT.org/

Esau said:
"You say the MOST DESPICABLE things about VATICAN II, ACCUSING it of so many horrible things; yet, HAVE YOU EVEN READ ALL ITS 16 DOCUMENTS????
To demonstrate, in another thread, YOU actually stated that HAND-HOLDING during the OUR FATHER as well as the ERADICATION OF KNEELERS from Catholic churches were all part of VATICAN II POLICY -- Yet, TELL ME WHERE IS THAT IN ALL OF THE DOCUMENTS OF VATICAN II EXACTLY???"
Esau-Please go back and show me where I have said that-I never said that, it was I who said that these innovations ARE taking place today-And they are NOT to be found in the documents-So why are they permitted? I think I went onto say that the documents were left so vague as to perpetuate these innovations so that those that do so can insinuate that there was nothing to the contrary that did NOT permit such
That is the problem with these documents-compare them to the simply written documents of all of the past councils where you had:
An Action-And a reaction
For example-If you did______-Let him be anethema
In Vatican II it is like a big fairy tale with no cause and effect and really no ending like in Nostre Aetate-we dont like Buddhism, Hiduism, etc, etc-but we reject nothing that is right in those faiths. These people are "illuminated" etc etc. Hogwash Hogwash Hogwash

Esau, it's not so much that he made assumptions or jumped to his own conclusions; it's more that he has his own version of reality, that you, as you may have noticed, can't penetrate. It's best to ignore him, lest you fall into sin.
JMJ

JOHN:
You mock me, accusing me of NOT BEING INFORMED???
MY GOD, MAN, DO YOU EVEN REFLECT ON YOUR ACTIONS OR ARE YOU JUST SO FULL OF YOURSELF AND YOUR USUAL MANURE THAT YOUR PRIDE BLINDS YOU EVEN FROM RECOGNIZING YOUR OWN STUPIDITY!
You say the MOST DESPICABLE things about VATICAN II, ACCUSING it of so many horrible things; yet, HAVE YOU EVEN READ ALL ITS 16 DOCUMENTS????
To demonstrate, in another thread, YOU actually stated that HAND-HOLDING during the OUR FATHER as well as the ERADICATION OF KNEELERS from Catholic churches were all part of VATICAN II POLICY -- Yet, TELL ME WHERE IS THAT IN ALL OF THE DOCUMENTS OF VATICAN II EXACTLY???
YOU -- WELL INFORMED????
HA! Even my dog is more well-informed about Vatican II than you are!
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the very reason why the church is in such a mess these days was because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO DID NOT READ THE VATICAN II DOCUMENTS but, instead, MADE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHAT VATICAN II SAID and merely JUMPED TO THEIR OWN INTERPRETATION of what Vatican II said and did what they wanted!

To add to the confusion, linked John has occasionally posted unlinked, so unlinked John's solution wouldn't help. If you're going to post with a common name (like anon or John), you just can't get bent out of shape if someone gets you mixed up with someone else. Simple as that.

Unlinked John, that's a bit much to ask people to remember. Whatever people's good intentions, they won't be able to. And there'll always be new people mixed up, anyway.
Maybe you should add an initial. John P or John H or something. Or you could post as 'Unlinked John'. That'd be a cool nick.

Mary Kay
Esau and I have also reached some agreements (even though I think he wishes I would go away forever!)
I feel soon we shall as well!!!!

jtnova says Realist is RIGHT ON!
Don't ever say this blog is boring or totally predictable.

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