Avoiding Temptation & NFP

by Jimmy Akin on April 10, 2007

in Moral Theology

A reader writes:

Some NFP manuals say that it is only
morally permissible to use NFP under the condition that the use of
periodic abstinence does not present the spouses with a serious
temptation to impurity of any kind.

Imagine the following scenario: the wife has some sort of condition
such that a pregnancy will severely endanger her health or life.
However, the husband thinks that periodic abstinence will present him
with temptations to impurity that he will not be able to resist.
Therefore, he concludes that he has a moral obligation not to use
NFP, and so he insists on the "marriage right," against the wishes of
his wife.

He does this to avoid the sin of impurity. But certainly it is a sin
for him to insist on relations against her will, in two ways: first,
it’s the sin of lust (treating his spouse as an object by insisting on
sex against her will); and second, it’s the sin of endangering his
wife against her will.

Obviously it is morally wrong to sin in these ways, even in order to
avoid the sin of impurity. There can be no moral obligation to sin.

So my question is: is it official Catholic teaching that it is wrong
to use periodic abstinence if it presents a serious danger of
temptation to impurity?

I don’t know if this is a real situation or not (the reader says "Imagine the following scenario"), but I hope it is only theoretical.

To answer the question, it is not official Catholic teaching that it is always wrong to use periodic abstinence if it presents a serious danger of temptation to impurity.

The statements of the kind being encountered in NFP manuals are pastoral exhortations intended to address the situation of people who are inclined to use NFP without sufficient reason. For example, some couples just coming off of contraception might have the idea that they can just sub in NFP without recognizing the human realities of periodic continence. One partner, for whom periodic continence does not pose a challenge to purity, might then be insensitive to the needs of the other. By encouraging the partners to face the issue of whether periodic continence will pose a challenge to chastity, the partners are encouraged not only to be sensitive to each other’s needs but also to weigh the question of whether periodic continence is really justified in their circumstances or whether their situation is such that they should go ahead and have relations during a time when the act may be capable of producing new life.

Such pastoral exhortations need to be phrased carefully, however, because while it is true that one should not use periodic continence if there is a serious danger to chastity all things being equal, all things are not always equal, as in the scenario the reader describes.

I’m not sure that I agree with everything in the reader’s analysis of the scenario. For example, I wouldn’t be quick to say that "the sin of lust" is being committed. Lust is a vice–something that inclines toward sin (specifically, it’s disordered desire for sexual pleasure)–but it’s not sin itself. Lust may be a contributing factor to the situation (as may an innocently-held but misguided notion that one can never use NFP if it poses a risk of impurity), but I’d be more inclined to point out as a problem the insisting of conjugal relations without adequate regard for the wife’s physical condition and her legitimate wish to protect it.

What the husband risks doing in the scenario is the flipside of what the pastoral exhortations are meant to prevent: Being insensitive to the danger that the use or non-use of periodic continence may create.

In the scenario the reader describes, the use of periodic continence places the husband in spiritual danger (of impurity) and the failure to use periodic continence places the wife in physical danger (per the scenario, "a pregnancy will severely endanger her health or life").

At this point some could be tempted to say that spiritual dangers are incommensurate with physical ones (mortal sin–i.e., spiritual death–is worse than physical death), and so the danger to the husband in this case trumps the danger to the wife, but to immediately conclude this would be too facile.

For a start, would putting the wife in a situation where she might be in danger of her life possibly cause her to be in danger of some kind of mortal sin (e.g., misuse of the will based on anger toward her husband, or a desire to secretly use contraception, or even a desire for an abortion or miscarriage)? One can’t just look at the spiritual effects of the decision on the husband without looking at the spiritual repercussions for the wife.

More fundamentally, the "spiritual danger trumps physical danger" solution would seem to proceed from an attitude that says temptation must be avoided at all costs, and–whatever may be said for this attitude–it does not seem to be God’s.

God could effortlessly remove all temptation from the world (I say effortlessly because, as an infinite being, he has infinite resources and thus everything is equally easy to him; he does not strain or diminish his resources by doing one thing rather than another), yet he does not.

Why this is is partly a mystery, but it seems that in God’s mind there is a value to allowing us to struggle with temptation and, by his grace, grow in the spiritual life and cultivate virtue and, in the end, overcome temptation and the vices that incline us toward it.

This has implications for the way we conduct our own lives. It is not within our power to avoid all temptation, and the attempt to do so is inconsistent with living in modo humano ("in a human manner"), which moral theology holds that we are called to do. At some point, attempts to avoid temptation become counterproductive. Imagine, for example, the case of a person who attempts to avoid even the mere sight of a member of the opposite sex, lest temptation arise. Such a person is more likely to foster temptation than diminish it, since the mere sight of the opposite sex would have such an aura of forbiddenness and would induce such anxiety that the person would constantly be obsessing about the matter and stirring up temptations that otherwise wouldn’t be there.

In dealing with temptation, what we are called to is not absolute risk avoidance but rational risk avoidance as part of overall risk management. The absolute avoidance of temptation is impossible for us in this life and the attempt to achieve it will be counterproductive. What we must do is take rational measures to manage the temptations we are subject to and thus minimize the chance of falling into sin.

What measures are rational depend on a variety of factors that vary by individual and by what state the individual is in at present. It also includes factors like what effects our temptation avoidance measures will have on others.

In the scenario described by the reader, the two parties need to be as prayerful and open to each other’s situations as possible and arrive at an overall assessment of the proper approach for them to take as a couple, taking into account both the risks that the wife is subject to and the risks that the husband is subject to. Neither automatically trumps the other, and thus neither party should start with the assumption that their risks should automatically govern the situation.

Both should be asking questions like "Just how much physical risk would a pregnancy entail?" "Just how much temptation would I actually be subject to?" "What would the effects be if I insist on my way in this situation?" "What does common sense say?"  "Is there some other way that we haven’t thought of–within the bounds of Church teaching–that the risks to me and my spouse could be managed?"  and especially, "What would be the most loving thing to do?"

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Sorry for changing the tone of the discussion, but does anyone have any advice on how to make a case for NFP instead of birth control.
Just about every priest in confession says something like "How about you yourself don't use birth control even though your spouse chooses to?" like they're taught to say that in seminary. It's within the letter of the law but pretty much directly opposed to the spirit (you're not sharing yourself completely if both people aren't sharing). I guess I would expect the exact opposite type of advice on how to communicate the Truth better even though you're still using birth control. I know confession isn't the place for such detailed pastoral advice, but with so many Catholics using birth control why isn't there a mountain of information for priests to quickly recommend. Why aren't the Church's teachings on marriage and sexuality a part of a homilies regularly at every parish?
My wife isn't Catholic and I wasn't practicing when we married. And to be honest I do a pretty poor job of living my faith even now that I believe. But the biggest problem is convincing her that children don't really mean the end of your life (or at the very least that children aren't an accessory you plan for after you've reached a certain point in your career). I would imagine my problem isn't unique to ecumenical marriages. I have the books and pamphlets explaining how to use NFP. Where do I go for support that the Church is right and raising children is our calling in our marriage? It doesn't come from the average parish or even diocese. It doesn't come from very many other Christian churches. And it certainly doesn't come from everyday culture. I feel like the Catholic who tries to be orthodox gets hung out to dry.

John,
Don't you think that at least one major media company would've reported that the pope had dung smeared on his head, prayed to shiva, etc.? And as for his praying for the coming of the messiah with the Jews, shouldn't all Christians pray for Christ's [second] Coming!?! Don't you *think* that Katie Koran, sam Donelson, et al. would've been shouting from the rooftops if JPII Ever even suggested that the Messiah had not yet come? I don't know why you hate JPII, But you need to find peace about this subject.

David B posted:
""Can one not discuss questionable actions by a Pope that was loved by the secular world... "
Which Pope was that? Certainly not John Paul II. They hated him."
David, is that so, then please explain why on his death for example the following was stated by all of the secular world, including the catholic hater Foxman whom JPII met personally when the Passion of the Christ controversy was in full swing, but refused to meet with Mel Gibson or come out in the public forum supporting the film, saying instead that "The Pope does not comment on films", what a cop out!"
Religious leaders from across the country praised Pope John Paul II on Saturday, saying the pope aggressively reached out to other faiths and inspired people worldwide.
The pope "revolutionized Catholic-Jewish relations," said Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. Foxman said the pope "normalized" relations with Jews and cited John Paul II's pilgrimage to the Holy Land.
"He was a man of God in every sense and a true friend whose visionary leadership will be sorely missed," Foxman said.
"Pope John Paul II was unquestionably the most influential voice for morality and peace in the world during the last 100 years," said the Rev. Billy Graham. "His extraordinary gifts, his strong Catholic faith, and his experience of human tyranny and suffering in his native Poland all shaped him, and yet he was respected by men and women from every conceivable background across the world."
"I think evangelicals also recognize that in the passing of John Paul II we may never see his likes again, and there's a real sense of loss in that even as we continue to be greatly concerned about the institution of the papacy, we have great admiration for the man," said R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
"The pope was a man of true peace and justice," said Pawan Deshpande, a member of the Hindu American Foundation Executive Council. "His strong commitment to human rights, democracy and interreligious dialogue will not be forgotten."
The Rev. C. Welton Gaddy, president of the Interfaith Alliance, said the pope "modeled unselfish compassion."
He said the pope served as an example of how people of various faiths — or no faith — "can live and work together while enhancing the quality of life for all people."
The pope "provided inspiration and leadership, not only to Roman Catholics but also to the greater Christian world and beyond with his uncompromising stances in favor of life and against the culture of death," said the Rev. Gerald B. Kieschnick, president of the Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod.
"His voice and moral authority gave inspiration and hope to millions well beyond the Roman Catholic Church," said the Rev. Frank Griswold, presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church USA, in seeming to sum up the feelings of many ministers.
Seems like every faith loved this man, because he stood for NOTHING!
Gospel according to St John Chapter 15
17 These things I command you, that you love one another.
18 If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you.
19 If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things they will do to you for my name's sake: because they know not him who sent me.
22 If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
23 He that hateth me, hateth my Father also.
Epistle of St. James Chapter 4
4 Adulterers, know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God.
5 Or do you think that the scripture saith in vain: To envy doth the spirit covet which dwelleth in you?
6 But he giveth greater grace. Wherefore he saith: God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Well, I've only read the first 150 comments or thereabouts so I apologize if someone said this already. But I had a comment on Jimmy's post.
As to NFP and Temptation, I have found that practicing abstinence builds up the ability to defeat impurity. Remembering that I am respecting my wife by not insisting on marital relations helps me to offer up the suffering of self-denial. This suffering seems to be a particular cross to men but men seem uniquely suited to handle it. The way men can focus on a task to the exclusion of everything else is both the cause and solution to this temptation, IMHO. Sometimes, two hours of fiddling in the garage or playing GameCube can be a very loving act.
Weekly confession is also a good way to defeat particularly insistent sins, like impurity.
P.S. - That John Henry is one smart guy.

John, I will only say this; If your purpose in posting here was to win people ovcr to your point of view, it has been a dismal failure. I am trying hard not to judge all trads by the attitude I see reflected in your posts.
You would be much further ahead had you never bothered to post at all, as my estimation both of your character and your point of view takes a dive with almost every one of your comments. If you are wise you will quit before you dig your hole even deeper and sully the image of trads everywhere to an even greater degree than you already have.
Or you can continue and (as the proverb goes) "remove all doubt".

John, read the title of this thread, and tell me if this if the place to discuss the 'evil' JPII.
David B.:
That's just it -- haven't you noticed (as in past threads) that IT IS HE who often does this?
Everybody here was engaging in a free and open discussion concerning the topic at hand EXCEPT JOHN.
In almost EVERY THREAD, NO MATTER THE TOPIC, John's comments are usually:
1. Vatican II is EVIL and responsible for this, that, and the other thing.
2. John Paul II (as well as others associated with him like Ratzinger, Mother Teresa, etc.) was a pagan and a heretic.
Does that, at all, rise to the level of intelligent discussion that John seem to claim about his comments and participation on the blog?
I mean, even a parrot can do the same!

"Can one not discuss questionable actions by a Pope that was loved by the secular world... "
Which Pope was that? Certainly not John Paul II. They hated him.
"To not discuss the merits of each, one might as well not have an open forum and discuss the weather"
John, read the title of this thread, and tell me if this if the place to discuss the 'evil' JPII. Since it isn't, I suggest you create you own blog. If people want to discuss this things with you, they can go there. Otherwise, stop hijacking this blog!

John, I've mostly avoided responding to your comments but there is NO EXCUSE for your repeated calumnious comments about John Paul II or any of the people posting here.
btw, you are hardly in a position to call anyone's long rants and cut and pastes are so tiresome to read and really boring to be honest since yours so frequently fit that description.
Occasionally, very occasionally, you sound conciliatory and say you are confused by what is being taught. Confusion can be clarified, but not when you persistently make calumnious comments.

Esau
Who died and made you the moral authority and judge of what is truth and not truth?
Does everyone have to fall in line with your thought and if not you blast them with all kinds of names?
Can one not discuss questionable actions by a Pope that was loved by the secular world while at the same time pedophilia was running rampant, the seminaries were emptying, the priesthood and pews were become older and sparse in age and the youth was becoming uncatechised -and he wore out the frequent flier miles?
Vatican II and JPII are two of the most divisive issues that have taken place within the church these past 40-50 years
To not discuss the merits of each, one might as well not have an open forum and discuss the weather
Esau-you can rant all you want at everyone but go to most other blogs and these topics are dicussed openly and freely, but you are a bully who tries to impose your moral authority on everyone here and one can see that from the lack of new posters who come on this board because you and your long rants and cut and pastes are so tiresome to read and really boring to be honest

BTW, the above anonymous was posted by me.
Esau,
I would agree with you, but John might think that I am your "lemming."
:-)

David B., Tim J.:
Now do you know where I'm coming from????
Look at what John has just stated here:
"For that matter, maybe I am holier than JPII because I have not condoned heresy or apostasy by my actions but he has, so we wait for a pope to wait for the groundswell of secular love to die down for this heretic of a pope and truly examine his actions and words and then decide where he belongs in church history"
If John were Protestant, Anti-Catholic, Non-Catholic; the statement made here would perhaps not matter to the same degree -- it would still be offensive to hear (and I might even respond to it), but this would certainly be understandable given the source of the comment.
However, John portrays himself as a TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC; Yet, his statements prove quite the contrary!

David B posted (along with Esau as they are tandem)
""Esau and David B and some of his other lemmings are trying to post using my name in their lame attempt to try and discredit me
All Jimmy A has to do is look at the IP addresses of the posts"
John, your lies about me are both unfounded and sinful.
Retract them, and try to illustrate to me how you are a 'better Catholic' than late Pope John Paul II."
Sorry but JPII like in politics with a president is fair game. If he wants to be Pope, and accepted the position (he could have refused), he has to accept the criticism. If he did not portray himself to be the vicar of christ who is to uphold faith, morals and tradition and then go and kiss korans, pray with moslems, hindus, buddhists and change canon law to allow our lord to be given to protestants, then he would not be criticized
This is a blog for discussion and sainthood, no matter how fast it is rammed down the throat of the church is not infallible and JPII is fair game whether you like it or not
For that matter, maybe I am holier than JPII because I have not condoned heresy or apostasy by my actions but he has, so we wait for a pope to wait for the groundswell of secular love to die down for this heretic of a pope and truly examine his actions and words and then decide where he belongs in church history

I was reading some of the earlier posts in this thread, so please forgive me if someone else has already made the following comment:
The church teach that Catholics must have as many babies as possible. If it did, we'd all be required to take fertility drugs, make sure that we were intimate during every single fertile period, and never EVER breastfeed.
Spacing children is actually PART of God's plan for us. Most women are physically incapable of having a child every nine months (some are, but they're unusual!)
My husband and I have never bothered with NFP -- breastfeeding tends to space our kids about 2 years apart.
The people who argue that spacing=contraception (and I have met a few, especially older Catholics who DO misinterpret the Church's teaching on this) believe that we're sinning if we don't wean by 4 or 5 months, because we're "artificially" limiting our family size.
Though isn't it odd that the natural spacing provided to most (not all, there are a few VERY fertile folks out there) couples fits with the scientific research on the best spacing of children for mom's recovery, ease of birth, and socializing of siblings?
hmmmmm..... what an AMAZING coincidence! =)

It is getting tedious to read through all of DPD's posts in order to reply, but I've been itching to reply to some so I'll take a crack at it already:
I come from a third-world country, where it is extremely rare to find a family with none, 1 or two children except for cases of infertility or the unusual decision to have few children. In my generation (born in the 70s), 4 is a common minimum, certainly for all the people I knew from my neighborhood or from school. I have five siblings. My mother was no brood mare by any stretch. She jointly managed the family business (winery) with my father until they closed it down (years after everyone had finished college).
A family I'm close to has 5 children. Their mother likewise co-managed the family business. Another family has 11 children, a number of whom I count as my closest friends. Their mother was a lawyer, became a judge by the time the youngest entered high school. Their father was a doctor.
My father employed many mothers from my neighborhood, some of whom had up to 5 children. They did various things in the winery, including clerical and manual work.
Surprise, surprise, the mortality rate of children in the Philippines (if UNICEF is to be believed) is not as high as you claim: less than 10% cannot be considered "most".
On the notion of NFP and the improbability of conception (as against the impossibility of conception), intention certainly has a lot to do with it, and the intention with contraception is to prevent contraception. Sex during the infertile periods, within the NFP context, is to use those periods designed by God into women's reproductive cycles. The former involves an explicit, willful act to excise the procreative from sex. The latter involves no such act.
Humanae Vitae makes clear distinction between one which is sex as God intended it, and sex as stubborn man would have it. The former design *includes the infertile periods* and, as a complete design, involves the unitive and procreative. Contraceptive sex interferes and foils that original design, intervening with devices and procedures which intend to foil the procreative aspects.
Not that DPD has shown up in the last few responses...

Interesting discussion.
Things I've noticed:
People who denigrate NFP don't really understand it.
People who use NFP generally want large families...large families are not a result of failure of the method, but success.
People, in order to justify their preconceptions, ignore facts, twist meanings, and shift focus.
Benefits of NFP:
NFP promotes education/understanding of the woman's body and cycle.
NFP promotes communication between husband and wife.
NFP can be taught to uneducated people, and can be used by people who can't afford condoms.
NFP doesn't alter the woman's chemical balance.
NFP can be used to conceive a child...real control, not just prevention.
My brood will number 5 near the end of the year...and the oldest will only be just over 5 when the new one is born. Preceding the conception of the first child was 3 years of marriage. The only surprise has been the current pregnancy, and we weren't really trying to avoid one (which seems to be most of the NFP "failures" I hear of).
The important thing with NFP is to use it for the right reason. Using NFP isn't automatically licit, nor is avoiding pregnancy automatically illicit.

Even though this is a little off-topic of temptation, there has been a lot of discussion about the pros and cons, success and failure rates of NFP. No one has brought up the fact that NFP can be and is often used by couples when they want to have children. NFP can be used to dramatically improve the chances of conception for couples who are having difficulty and is often recommended by fertility specialists. What other ABC can make this claim?
NFP has been around for a long time and it is not just used by Catholics...

I did "talk" to God via his gifts of reason and common sense. NFP by both gifts is dangerous in the many marriages to include the menopausal portion of most.

Tim J.:
My sincerest apologies to you and Jimmy Akin.
However, I hope you can understand my reaction to John's offensive remarks. I know it doesn't make them right -- but I, at least, hope you can understand, especially since he's the one who keeps on butting in on almost each and every thread with similar posts.

"Esau and David B and some of his other lemmings are trying to post using my name in their lame attempt to try and discredit me
All Jimmy A has to do is look at the IP addresses of the posts"
John, your lies about me are both unfounded and sinful.
Retract them, and try to illustrate to me how you are a 'better Catholic' than late Pope John Paul II.

Shame, shame. Jimmy is going to have to shut this thread down because you two can't behave like gentlemen in this forum. This will deprive the rest of us of the chance to talk. Even DDD or whatever his initials are is at least pushing a point of view (Everyone needs to have sex all the time, abstinence causes all kinds of horrible problems, we definitely don't want too many babies, so obviously contraception is not only necessary but a very good thing) rather than engaging in a personal duel.
Arguing with people like D something D is useful; it helps us to clarify what we believe and refine how we present it. But obviously this interesting thread has now degenerated right into the pit.
Good night all.
Susan Peterson

"I did not post the above, and anon, if you have any fortitude please post your name"
John, the anonymous poster before was me. For some reason my personal info did not post.
Another "John" posted - I doubt it was Esau or David B. - more probably a common troll. They have been around lately. Your insistence that it must be Esau or David is kinda pathetic.
Just stick to the issues, everyone... pretty please?
Oh, and God... Realist wants to have a word with you because he has some suggestions on how to improve this plan for reproduction that you came up with. He thinks the whole idea needs revising. Nothing personal... he just thinks you may have had some other things on your mind and maybe dropped the ball on this one. Too much responsibility and sacrifice and not enough *whoopee* for his taste. Better living through chemistry, and all that...

JOHN:
Obssessed with you????
IS THAT THE REASON WHY IN ALMOST EVERY THREAD, IT IS YOU WHO ARE THE ONE WHO KEEPS ON POSTING TO/ABOUT ME, JUST AS YOU HAVE HERE ON THIS VERY THREAD AS WELL AS ON OTHER RECENT ONES like "German study: NFP as effective as the Pill"???
It's like a damn child trying to grab for attention -- only in this case, it's a closet homosexual who gets turned on by pedophile priests!
Perhaps the very VERACITY of that remark you made in the past is the very reason WHY you are so OBSSESSED!
I feel so sorry for your family.

John accuses me (yet again):
"Esau and David B and some of his other lemmings are trying to post using my name in their lame attempt to try and discredit me
All Jimmy A has to do is look at the IP addresses of the posts
Esau-you are so desperate, we pray for your conversion"
Look, John, STOP ACCUSING ME OF POSTING THINGS under your name!
On the other hand, HOW DO WE KNOW YOU DIDN'T, in fact, POST IT (especially given your past history of personal insults to me)????
It seems rather SUSPICIOUS to me that you only DISOWNED the OFFENSIVE comment once Anon with No Name had mentioned something concerning its downright demeaning aspect!

JR
Thank you for the advice, I will have to use a fake e-mail because Esau is obessessed with me (possibly physically?) and posts my e-mail address, pretends to be me in posts, uses anon posts and all kinds of lame antics as he is clearly one frustrated individual not confident in his abilities as an Apologist and possibly as a Man, but I leave that for a MD to figure out

Inocencio posted:
"John,
I see you are still incapable of answering a direct question.
Still I strongly recommend you actually read Man and Woman He Created Them - A Theology of the Body translated and introduced by Michael M. Waldstein. The 128 page introduction of the book alone is worth the price of the book."
Inocencio-I have read Theology of the body and then got tired, it is boring and is blabber
For that matter, anything so called "orthodox" written by JPII means nothing, because one day he talks about something Catholic and the next day he kisses Korans, prays with Moslems, worships false idols, so the mans actions are clearly heretical and apostate so what can I learn from a wolf in sheeps clothing who was loved by the world (which our Lord clearly warned us about being loved by the world as well as the wolf in sheeps clothing)

John, I highly doubt anyone is posting in your name to try to discredit you.
Assuming you are the former "linked John" I'd recommend linking something to your name again if you want to just use John. I understand if you don't want to use your email. I used to use my email address but got an unwelcome kind of email so I switched to the website of the Knights of Columbus, which I'm a memeber of. I guess I'm just vain and like that underline.
Anyway, either use a link or use your last initial or something. You can't blame people for getting confused if you just use John with no link.

Susan posted:
"Esau was mistaken in one statement he made; the one I copied and pasted into my last post. He was not mistaken for the reason that John gives, or in the way that John says he was wrong. He was only mistaken in saying that the reason having why sex in the infertile periods only is not wrong; he said it was because conception could still possibly occur then. (See his words which I cited above.) "
Susan-this has already been made clear by two popes untainted by Modernism is Pius XI and XII, one does not need Esau to clarify whether sex during fertile or infertile periods is correct or not
Please know that NFP was around way before JPII talked about "Theology of the Body" which is lame modernistic composite of his talks which basically are a lot of words which mean very little, as the church has already made their teachings on contraception in Humane Vitae and NFP and the Rhythm method in Pius XI and XII clear as can be

Wow, the shouting continues!!!
The potential problems with NFP:
1. pregnancy during menopause leading to an increased risk of birth defects.
2. pregnancy during nursing leading to a heath risk for the mother because of improper recovery from the first pregnancy.
3. sexually frustrated spouses leading to depression/anger.
4. increased prostate cancer risk for the husbands due to reduced flow of sperm and prostate fluids.

John,
I see you are still incapable of answering a direct question.
Still I strongly recommend you actually read Man and Woman He Created Them - A Theology of the Body translated and introduced by Michael M. Waldstein. The 128 page introduction of the book alone is worth the price of the book.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

It's just Esau's form of asexual reproduction.
I did not post the above, and anon, if you have any fortitude please post your name
Esau and David B and some of his other lemmings are trying to post using my name in their lame attempt to try and discredit me
All Jimmy A has to do is look at the IP addresses of the posts
Esau-you are so desperate, we pray for your conversion

A manmade wall between the men's and women's dorm also "duly prevents the natural procreative aspects" too.
Hans:
I rather enjoyed that quip! <=^) This is true especially when presented out of context and further illustrates the need for precise language and, hence, the obsession with corrigenda.
Thus, the apparent difficulty for lesser races who may actually be incapable of such precision in a language that is, in all actuality, beyond them.

A manmade wall between the men's and women's dorm also "duly prevents the natural procreative aspects" too.

You've posted and reposted the same argument at least seven times on this thread alone. Didn't you know? Cut and paste "duly prevents the natural procreative aspects endowed by God to humanity."
Becky,
For one, the part of a sentence/statement does not constitute a paragraph.
Second, I believe you missed the entire point as regards why the repetition of the cited comment in my exchange with DPD.

It's just Esau's form of asexual reproduction.

You've posted and reposted the same argument at least seven times on this thread alone. Didn't you know? Cut and paste "duly prevents the natural procreative aspects endowed by God to humanity."

After actually reading what I wrote in my original post, it didn't sound quite right.
Therefore, I had to correct it.
You need to understand, for folks like me who write/speak in one language but thinks in another, it is sometimes difficult to express one's thoughts in the prevailing language.

How many times are you going to cut and paste that paragraph?

CORRIGENDUM:
What I tried to point out is that with the use of artificial contraceptives, not only is it un-natural and duly prevents the natural procreative aspects endowed by God to humanity; but the very fact that a couple would go as far as to the extent of using artificial devices (made for this specific purpose) to subvert the natural design of God would not at all be acceptable and is, in fact, sinful.

He was only mistaken in saying that the reason having why sex in the infertile periods only is not wrong; he said it was because conception could still possibly occur then.
Susan Peterson:
AH! *slaps forehead*
Thanks for the clarification here, Susan!
Really, really appreciate it!
I was trying to figure out where the interpretation you got came from.
Actually (and that was my fault for not being accurate in a comment I was attempting to write rather quickly at the time), I was trying to place further stress on points revolving around the theme "Open-to-Life" as well as accentuating the "DEFINITE BREAK" in my post to DPD, which I thought could be served by pointing out (merely as an FYI, so-to-speak) that just because a couple has sex during periods of supposed infertility, there is that possibility that the woman may still get pregnant. This was to address something DPD had said -- that they couldn't at all.
What I tried to point out is that with the use of artificial contraceptives, not only is it un-natural, but it duly prevents the natural procreative aspects endowed by God to humanity; and the very fact that a couple would go as far as to the extent of using artificial devices (made with the specific purpose) to subvert the natural design of God would not at all be acceptable and is, in fact, sinful.
At any rate, I appreciate your clarification, Susan.
I welcome these instances since it actually helps me find out where have I mis-communicated something or if the content in my communication was actually wrong.
In either event, it's a learning experience.

John,
You said: "Unlike JPII's "Theology of the Body" which is pages and pages of blabber..."
Have you actually read the Theology of the Body or only commentaries about it from your favorite websites?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Esau was mistaken in one statement he made; the one I copied and pasted into my last post. He was not mistaken for the reason that John gives, or in the way that John says he was wrong. He was only mistaken in saying that the reason having why sex in the infertile periods only is not wrong; he said it was because conception could still possibly occur then. (See his words which I cited above.)
He is pretty much right about the rest of it although I think he doesn't understand that his use of NATURAL is different from other people's and not always understood.
He is certainly right about what actions are right and wrong.
I also think that his reason why the use of the infertile period is not wrong has some psychological validity, even if not logical or theological or philosophical validity. When one has contracepted, and starts having sex without contraception, one (and I am speaking as a woman here) feels very exposed, very vulnerable, very "unprotected," to be honest, almost as if one were "offering oneself up." It is a scary feeling. There are uncertainties in the actual practice of NFP, especially for nursing mothers, and especially when one is new at it. Was that the temperature rise, or am I sick? Was that the beginning of the fertile mucus or was I just having erotic thoughts which caused lubrication? So one does feel vulnerable to pregnancy, which, after all, is something that takes over one's body and determines a lot about one's immediate future. It takes some abandonment to God's will to do this, even at what should by all the NFP rules be an infertile time. And, as opposed to the reasons why the use of NFP is not wrong, I think this is one of the reasons why it is right, and psychologically immensely different from the use of contraception.
John, I don't know where the onus against the Theology of the Body comes from. It is a difficult book (or set of addresses to read), but my poor comprehension is not a good reason to call it blather. What I do grasp of it is that it is first of all, an extended medication on Genesis "Male and female He created them" and therefore on what it means that we were made by God in two sexes with different kinds of bodies. It is perhaps an attempt to make the true meaning of "natural" understandable for modern people who are cut off from being able to understand the Aristotelian and Thomistic use of that word. As far as I know nothing in it contradicts the teaching of any previous Popes, and I would be extremely surprised if it did. Theology is an ongoing enterprise; it isn't supposed to be finished, over and done with.
Susan Peterson

... And John, MORE Cut-and-Paste?

You are totally correct and Esau is wrong, as you proved above. The popes before Vatican II all said that NFP is acceptable and that one can deliberatly abstain from sex during fertile periods if having a child would result in undue hardship. Esau is saying otherwise.
John:
Kindly cite where EXACTLY have I SPECIFICALLY STATED that DELIBERATELY ABSTAINING FROM SEX DURING FERTILE PERIODS is WRONG????
Please, feel free to thrown in MORE STRAW MEN!

Susan Peterson:
The DEFINITE BREAK I was referring to in the comment cited is the very act of frustrating the natural fertility of the sexual act, as even made evident in my comment:
"Artificial Contraceptives, on the other hand, are UN-NATURAL and duly prevent the NATURAL procreative aspects endowed by God to humanity."

Susan
You are totally correct and Esau is wrong, as you proved above. The popes before Vatican II all said that NFP is acceptable and that one can deliberatly abstain from sex during fertile periods if having a child would result in undue hardship. Esau is saying otherwise. Unlike JPII's "Theology of the Body" which is pages and pages of blabber, Pius XI and XII have made it very clear as to what is permitted, as has even Paul VI in humanae Vitae, probably his shining moment as Pope
As I have posted on another thread:
Natural Family Planning (NFP) is not artificial birth control, but rather the selective use of continence, which is one of the moral virtues
(when rightly applied).
Pope Pius XI said this is a clear option in Casti Connubii (Encyclical Letter on Christian Marriage, December 31, 1930). Pope Pius XII also discussed the moral principles covering the use of the Rhythm Method as follows:
There is a vast difference between contraception and the Rhythm Method because the former consists in the abuse of the sexual powers, the later, in
the non-use of these powers at certain times in the month.
A married couple may ordinarily use the Rhythm Method only when both agree to the restriction that it involves.
This method may not be used if the parties are yielding to sins of incontinence in the period of abstinence from sexual relations.
A couple may not lawfully use the Rhythm Method unless they have a very good reason for not having children, at least for the time being.
"We affirmed the legitimacy and at the same time the limits truly very wide of that controlling of births which, unlike the so-called 'birth control,' is compatible with God's law....
Serious motives, such as those that not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic, and social so-called 'indications,' may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt
for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint, and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned." (Pope Pius XII, Allocutions to Midwives, October 29, 1951, and to the Associations of the Large Families, November 26, 1951).

Susan Peterson:
Look, I have NO IDEA where you're getting all these notions, CLAIMING that I said the things you've attributed to me --
The fact of the matter is that DPD claimed that having sex during the infertile period was a SIN.
I contested that saying IT WAS NOT.
My POINT was that sex during infertile periods is, in fact, as NATURAL an act as sex during fertile periods; therefore, NOT A SIN and ACCEPTABLE.
Artificial Contraceptives, on the other hand, are UN-NATURAL and duly prevent the NATURAL procreative aspects endowed by God to humanity.
He answered me with the following:
"So if someone is murdered by "natural" means its not a sin, but if the killing is done artificially then it is?"
I replied:
If somebody suffering pain and apparently dies of NATURAL causes, such as a heart-attack; that is completely ACCEPTABLE, as it is a NATURAL death.
However, if somebody suffering pain takes his own life, this is UN-NATURAL; that is UNACCEPTABLE!
Thus, RESPECT for HUMAN LIFE from CONCEPTION to NATURAL death!
How is what I said above WRONG?

Esau- What I wrote is how I interpreted these words of yours,
"With artifical contraception, there is definite intention by the individual, a definite break that occurs between the unitive and procreative aspects; whereas when having sex during supposed infertile periods, there isn't a definite break since having sex during those times does not necessarily mean that pregnancy would NOT occur (in fact, it CAN and DOES happen) and, thus, there is that "open-to-life" UNLIKE with artificial contraception.
Posted by: Esau | Apr 10, 2007 1:02:31 PM"
Didn't you mean by this what I took it to mean?
SFP

Go Susan P!;
"The reason this is licit is that God hasn't put any fertility into these marital acts in the first place, so one is not frustrating the natural and God intended purpose of the act. What is wrong is to put an artificial barrier (either during or in anticipation of the act such as the pill, IUD) which frustrates the natural fertility of the sexual act. During infertile periods, there is no fertility to frustrate."
Thank you, Susan. Exactly and precisely correct. I just pasted it so everyone could read it again.

Esau,someone may have addressed this, but your reasoning for why NFP is licit is partially defective. You are saying that it is ok for people to restrict sex to the probably infertile times because conception could possibly still occur then.
Susan Peterson:
Where exactly have I stated this????
I have NO IDEA where you're getting all those things in your post above that you claim I've said when, in fact, I have not.

Esau,someone may have addressed this, but your reasoning for why NFP is licit is partially defective. You are saying that it is ok for people to restrict sex to the probably infertile times because conception could possibly still occur then. No. It would still be licit if there were an absolute foolproof method of knowing that conception could not occur then. (If one refers to the second half of the cycle, after ovulation, after the third day of the temperature rise or the night of the fourth day past the peak mucus symptom, there pretty much is. This is a period of absolute infertility.)
The reason this is licit is that God hasn't put any fertility into these marital acts in the first place, so one is not frustrating the natural and God intended purpose of the act. What is wrong is to put an artificial barrier (either during or in anticipation of the act such as the pill, IUD) which frustrates the natural fertility of the sexual act. During infertile periods, there is no fertility to frustrate.
The logic of this becomes much more clear if one remembers to think of individual acts. Don't start out by asking, "What is the general intention of the couple? Answer, to avoid children now. So how does the method matter?" No, ask what they are doing in each individual act of marital intercourse. In that act, are they open to whatever possibility of new life God has put there? Is it wrong for a couple to abstain from any particular act of sex, if they both agree? No. So abstaining during the fertile times isn't wrong. Is it wrong for them to have sex when the act might reasonably be anticipated to be infertile? No, otherwise it would be illicit for women my age to engage in marital intercourse, and the church has never said this.
Now, there is a separate question, a different question, not the same question, about the possible wrongness of the intention to avoid having children at all or at any particular time. As we all know, the intention before a marriage to avoid having children at all, invalidates the marriage. But how about the couple who decides to have only two, in order to live a comfortable suburban lifestyle and send both children to expensive private colleges? I think that few people like that use NFP rather than contraception, but there might be some. Their reasons for making this choice could be questioned; they could be making an idol of money or success or conformity to the values of their neighbors, they could be failing to trust God enough. There might indeed be sin involved. BUT if they used NFP, it would not be the sin of contraception.
Susan Peterson

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