Declining church attendance

by SDG on October 4, 2007

in Uncategorized

SDG here (not Jimmy) with some musings on the trend of falling church attendance, especially among Catholics..

In a combox discussion below about post-Vatican II liturgical changes, a reader suggested that post-Vatican II liturgical changes were responsible for a massive decline in Catholic church attendance. Of course church attendance has fallen everywhere, not just among Catholics — but another reader argued that Catholics have fallen away at much greater rates than their non-Catholic neighbors, implying that the fault must lie with changes in the Church:

The Church was in ascendancy until all of these shenanigans started up around Vatican II. Now? Decline in many fronts…

So what is the cause? Protestant church attendance went down by about 5-10% in the last 40 years, Catholics are down by over 60%.

Now, I’m not a sociologist. I suspect the second reader’s statistical factoid is misleading, for reasons that I may or may not touch on in a follow-up post or in the combox. Granted the statistic, though, or at least the general point behind it, I can think of a few possible factors that could contribute to such a disparity, though I don’t pretend to know what "the cause" is.

What I can say is this: Granted that the decline in church attendance has hit the Catholic Church harder than Protestant churches, it doesn’t follow that the basis for this disparity must be rooted solely in harmful changes within the Catholic Church. On the contrary, I think it is very likely that two very important factors involve ways in which the Catholic Church has not changed while the culture — including Protestant culture — has drifted further into error.

Let’s review a little history. Other than Vatican II and the 1969 missal, what other cultural changes have taken place from the 1960s onward?

Here are a few: The sexual revolution. The Pill. No-fault divorce. The Playboy Philosophy. The Me Generation. The evolution of serial monogamy. The DINK culture. The rise of what is only half facetiously called the "starter marriage."

Now, what are the most widely criticized and resisted teachings of the Catholic Church today? Here are two:

1. Divorce and remarriage.

2. Contraception.

To these two we could also add an obvious third, abortion, although there the Protestant culture is more divided, with strong areas of ongoing resistance to abortion within the Evangelical community. On the subjects of divorce and remarriage and contraception, on the other hand, the Catholic Church stands essentially alone against the culture.

Say what you like about the liberality of American marriage tribunals. The fact remains that in the Catholic Church it is still a whole heck of a lot harder to get divorced and remarried and keep on receiving communion as a Catholic in good standing than it is in any other church or ecclesial community. On this subject, what has changed over the last four decades is not the Church’s essential teaching, but the culture at large.

In an age in which skyrocketing divorce rates and multiple marriages are increasingly the norm, the Church’s ongoing fidelity to her essential teaching seems increasingly onerous and unrealistic. No other church or ecclesial community imposes the array of time-consuming, bureaucratic and potentially costly obstacles upon divorced members seeking to enter or having already entered into new unions. The Church does this out of fidelity to Jesus Christ, who declared that he who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, but the world grows ever deafer to this declaration.

As for contraception, if anything it is probably an even bigger issue. As prevalent as divorce and remarriage have become, contraception is ubiquitous, literally taken for granted. The question in our contraceptive culture is not whether to contracept, but only which type(s) of contraception to use. (The mere fact that one particular type of oral pharmaceutical has an undisputed and unambiguous claim to the definite term "The Pill" itself speaks volumes.)

Although surveys suggest that many Catholics are willing to keep coming to Mass in spite of dissenting from the Church’s teaching in both theory and practice, it remains a major impediment to fully appropriating and embracing one’s Catholic identity. It is a wedge driving untold Catholics to qualify their acceptance of the Church’s teaching and pastoral authority, making it easier to dissent and distance themselves on other issues and finally to abandon the Church altogether.

On a fundamental level, whatever mistakes and questionable decisions may have been made within the Church in the 1960s and beyond, on these two issues it is what the Church has done right that has pushed away some who might not have been pushed away in Protestant churches.

This isn’t to say that mistakes and questionable decisions haven’t made both issues a bigger stumbling-block when they need to be. For instance, I know a couple seeking full membership in the Church who have been trying to get an anullment hearing in another country for several years. Not just the Church’s teaching, but the imperfections of the Church’s leadership obstruct their way.

Nor am I claiming that liturgical changes in the 1960s and beyond — both authorized and otherwise — haven’t been factors at all.

I’m simply noting that the factors are complex, the social changes over the last few decades are complex, the issues are complex. We can’t simply conclude that if more people are falling away from the Church, the only possible explanation is limited to what the Church is doing wrong. At least in some cases, it may be what the Church is doing right.

Many disciples stopped following Jesus after his "hard sayings" in John 6, saying, "Who can accept this?" The same dynamic is at work today.

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"The simple problem, unfortunately, is the liturgy is dull, boring ad(sic) irrelevant."
I guess it is, if your purpose in going to Mass is to be entertained. If you want to get something out of the Mass, try putting something into it.

The simple problem, unfortunately, is the liturgy is dull, boring ad irrelevant. And the old bachelors in Rome who make the rules just don't get it. And, I suspect, never will.

erick,
Esquire---
Sorry to disappoint you some more "In particular, are all forms of communication with angels, including thanksgiving and exhortation, strictly forbidden in your opinion?".

What does the Biblical record say?....

Sorry!.

Not sure what you're sorry about. Maybe you just realized you've misread the Biblical record, as my Bible contains scores of communications with angels.
Sorry indeed.

There is no correct technique for praying to angels, just as there's no correct technique to pray to God or to ask a friend for help.

In addition to the two traditional prayers supplied above, I will mention another way of praying to angels to which I have had recourse for many years.
I suppose all of us who live near reasonably busy roads are familiar with the sound of screeching tires as a driver jams on his brakes in an effort to avoid an accident. I suppose all of us wince at that sound and hope not to hear the sound of rending metal afterwards.
Several years ago, instead of merely hoping and wincing in that moment, I began channeling that moment of vicarious anxiety into a deliberate but wordless prayer to all angels in the area on behalf of the driver(s) and any other potentially affected parties.
I don't know how it is for anyone else, but for me at any rate the unexpectedness and the brevity of the crisis would preclude any but the briefest and most automatic of ejaculatory prayers (such as the name of Jesus).
At any rate I make no effort to form words. I simply close my eyes and in my heart I offer a wordless intention that any accident be averted, the parties and secondarily their machines kept safe. In my mind's eye I picture angels standing in the space between one car and another or between the car and the person or object it might strike. The picture and the intention is the prayer.
(Strictly as a side note, I might mention that since I began this practice I have yet to hear that sound of rending metal. From this isolated fact I advance no particular conclusions.)

After praying to the angels, pray to the sun, moon and stars. Also to your cocker spaniel.

That's cute, B'Geo. (It is you, isn't it, B? Thanks for the reference work earlier. I always said you were smart... way too smart to be helping Fred123, so you must have had some other reason for your interest. I wonder what it was. Not that I prithee tell me.)
Actually, since you mention it, I do (or did, when I had one) "pray" (in the broad imperative sense) my cocker spaniel do this or that (heel, sit, etc.) -- to the extent that it was compatible with his nature to hear and respond.
In the case of the sun, moon and stars, of course, it is not compatible with their nature to hear and respond; so while we can (in keeping with Psalm 148) call on them in the broadest of senses, we cannot expect any response to this call, except insofar as that the response is in us.
In that respect, calling on the sun, moon and stars, while it has no effect upon them, benefits us by heightening our appreciation for their place in God's plan and their goodness in our lives.
The same goods, though not only these goods, are served when we call upon angels.
What is different about angels is that they -- along with our fellow men -- are uniquely capable among created things of hearing and responding to our calls. Which is why we can call on them (both angels and our fellow men) in a way beyond any that could apply to other created things, asking and expecting them (both angels and our fellow men) to respond to our calls.

There is no correct technique for praying to angels, just as there's no correct technique to pray to God or to ask a friend for help. But here are two common prayers to angels:
A prayer to St. Michael:
St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly hosts, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
A prayer to your guardian angel (there are many, this is a common one):
Angel of God, my guardian dear, To whom God's love commits me here, Ever this day, be at my side, To light and guard, Rule and guide. Amen.

What is the correct technique for praying to angels?

Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
Praise him, sun and moon; give praise all shining stars.
After praying to the angels, pray to the sun, moon and stars. Also to your cocker spaniel.

I'll clarify again!!!! I said PRAYING to angels.
Avoid going to court over anything.
Besides the usual reasons, you may suffer the shock of hearing your lawyer say, "My client prays the court."
"To pray" as has already been pointed out, means "to ask."
Therefore, your assertions that,
My point is simply that the Bible does not record any prayers to angels---
is simply wrong. I grabbed one psalm. If you look, there are scores more. And in Daniel, the "three in the furnace with one voice sang, glorifying and blessing God" and one of the things they sang was a prayer to angels: "Angels of the Lord, bless the Lord, praise and exalt him above all forever."
and indeed, when you assert
I don't PRAY to them to do this for me----
see the difference?.
I may ask them to pray for or with me----but I am not about to pray TO someone dead--- or to an angel--- again this is not Biblical---which again may not mean much around here!.
You are contradicting yourself. If you ask them for anything, you are praying to them.

Erick,
Okay. I begin to guess that you aren't really interested in the subject of praying to angels per se. It seems you're just looking to critique the concept of sacred tradition.
Let me help you out. It is true that tradition is judged by scripture, but not in the sense that everything in tradition must be explicitly attested in scripture.
As others have already pointed out, the NT scriptures grew out of tradition, not the other way around. Furthermore, throughout the early centuries as the canon was forming, apostolic tradition was a standard by which the NT-era texts were judged, to see which were consistent with the teaching received from the apostles and which were not.
Today, scripture is a standard by which tradition is judged, but this doesn't mean that any tradition not explicitly attested in scripture is false. It does mean that any tradition contradicted by scripture is false.
So the fact that the tradition of asking the angels for help may not explicitly appear in scripture does not trouble us. Neither do the scriptures contradict or reject this practice.
More pointedly, neither do the scriptures anywhere tell us that any tradition not explicitly attested in scripture is false.
If your interrogation implicitly assumes the latter, it is based on an unscriptural and false principle.
Back to the subject of prayer to angels. Your position still seems to me to make no sense.

Erick,
We rely on other people (parents, ministers, teachers, family, friends, scholars, theologians, etc) to help teach us about God. These people help us to achieve salvation; we would all be lost if we grew up with no exposure to Christianity and were merely handed a Bible one day. Yet you don't claim that asking them for help somehow takes away from God.
So why then is it wrong to ask the angels and saints who we profess are alive in Christ? In a sense they're even more alive than we are. I'd be interested in knowing what people who don't pray to them think that they do in heaven.
I'm not sure what you're denomination is, but does your church do nothing that's not explicitly described in the Bible?

Where does it state thet these prayers were directed to the angel?....

Well, what were the angels doing with prayers addressed to God?
The point is, angels have a role in bringing our prayers before God. It seems reasonable that we can acknowledge them.

Bill912---
So?-----
Where does it state thet these prayers were directed to the angel?....

"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."--Revelation 8:3-4

Esquire---
Sorry to disappoint you some more "In particular, are all forms of communication with angels, including thanksgiving and exhortation, strictly forbidden in your opinion?".
What does the Biblical record say?....
Sorry!.

Erick,
I would be interested in seeing your answers to SDG's excellent points. (Although your response to Michael's was, I must admit, disappointing.)
In particular, are all forms of communication with angels, including thanksgiving and exhortation, strictly forbidden in your opinion?

SDG---
You lost ir Brother!-----
My point is simply that the Bible does not record any prayers to angels--- but I know many Catholics do----...
So, in order to overcome this---- the teachings of Tradition re sought.
My contention is How do we validate Tradition?.
I got my answer--- it is validated by Scripture--and the
Magisterium---- however Scripture does not teach prayer to angels--- so I guess on this one doctrine only the Magisterium was there to "validate" this tradition.
Right?.

I don't PRAY to them to do this for me

Oh dear, we may be more confused than I thought. Didn't you read my earlier post on the root meaning of "pray" (as in "I pray thee Erick attend closely to my argument"?).
Yes, you do. To ASK someone to pray to God for you = to PRAY them do so. Ask = Pray. The words are synonymous.

Michael---
"...A Catholic uses the word 'pray' in a much more general fashion than your realize."
I know that's right!.

I do not object to angels interceding on man's behalf.....requesting that they do IS prayer...this I do object to

It sounds to me, Erick, as if you may be claiming that I can say, "Thank you, angels all around me, for all that you did for me yesterday," and I can even say "Thank you, angels all around me, for all that you are going to do for me tomorrow," but the one thing I cannot say is "Thank you, angels, for all you may do for me today, and if it be God's will, may your aid help keep me safe from harm and sin"?
Can that really be right?
Another example:
If my brother or cousin or son comes home from war, I can say "Thank you, angels, for keeping him safe."
If he is going to war, I can say, "Thank you, angels, for whatsoever you may do it keep him safe, if it be God's will."
I can even say, "Dear God, keep him safe. Send angels to keep him safe. Angels, thank you for all that you will do to keep him safe."
But the one thing I cannot add to this is, "Angels, I ask you, if it be God's will, keep him safe. Bring him back to us"?
And why would this be? To me, it seems arbitrary and, well, just silly.
Earlier you suggested that "prayer IS worship." Now you seem to realize that it is not, but you still have this objection that, AFAICT, you have not explained, other than to say that you "haven't seen a biblical example."
FWIW, Mary's citation of Psalm 148 does seem to count. To exhort the angels to praise God is an imperative utterance, which, since we have not authority to command angels, can only be an exhortation, an encouragement, a request -- a prayer.
If we can exhort the angelic hosts to praise God (though surely they are doing already anyway), why can we not call on them to watch over us?
Why should the burden of proof should be on us to show that it is right? What reason do you have to think that it might be wrong?
What religious principle is being violated? How exactly is God's honor or glory violated if we ask His angels to do what He has charged them with doing?
Do I need a biblical example to ask you to pass the salt? Why should I need a Bible verse to ask my children's guardian angels to watch over them through the day?

Erick,
It is only in modern usage that the word pray has become synonymous with worship. Its meaning and traditional usage is "to ask". As in, I pray sir that you calm yourself.
If you want to talk about worship, please discuss worship. A Catholic uses the word 'pray' in a much more general fashion than your realize.

I don't PRAY to them to do this for me----
see the difference?.
I may ask them to pray for or with me----but I am not about to pray TO someone dead--- or to an angel--- again this is not Biblical---which again may not mean much around here!.

erick,
Help clarify for me what aspect you feel is not biblical. You do agree, don't you, that it is biblical to ask others to intercede with God on your behalf?

"...Surely you do not have an objection to angels interceding on man's behalf, or to man requesting that they do so? "
I do not object to angels interceding on man's behalf.....requesting that they do IS prayer...this I do object to , no matter how many "neat" and circular reasoning answers I get from many here.
I have not seen one (1) example of this being biblical....yet that does not matter much anyway apparently.

erick,
Perhaps you would not object if we said, "asking them to intercede on our behalf," rather than "praying to them."
Surely you do not have an objection to angels interceding on man's behalf, or to man requesting that they do so?

Mary---
"...And if you do think there's something wrong with speaking to angels, ..."
I'll clarify again!!!! I said PRAYING to angels.

"Both religions have for centuries said, if you leave the church you will be damned. Brainwashing, guilt, fear, and sacraments complete their religious rites.
Saint Peter pronounced anathemas, but who cares about that "Brainwashing guilt"? BTW, Baptism, instituted by Christ, IS a sacrament.

Do your homework and the lies of Rome are easily exposed.
Said the man who admitted to not reading the church fathers (as in the first three hundred years history of the Church.)
It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Seriously, my sides are hurting.

Perhaps he needs to be told that continuing to make electronic communications after being told to cease doing so is a crime. ('Cause telling him it's rude probably won't have any effect on him).

Bill912, you're right. I am going to escalate matters.
Bernard, since you ignored my request to clarify your identity, and because of various stylistic tics (and personality problems) you share in common with Fred123, you are gone for now. Feel free to write to me privately if you feel you've been treated unfairly.

SDG, I take it you are satisfied that Bernard is not Fred 123? Because he's talking past everyone just like Fred, and offering nothing to back up his assertions, just like Fred.

I know that many Catholics pray to Michael The Archangel.
When I look to see if this is even shown to be Biblical , I come out wanting--- but then the Catholic says ...well, you see this is not found in the Bible but in Sacred Tradition and so forth.
And why should they not pray to Michael the Archangel? What is wrong with asking something of the archangel, or any other angel?
And if you do think there's something wrong with speaking to angels, explain Psalm 148.
"Praise the Lord from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
Praise him, sun and moon; give praise all shining stars.
Praise him, highest heavens, you waters above the heavens.
Let them all praise the Lord's name; for the Lord commanded and they were created,
Assigned them duties forever, gave them tasks that will never change."

Proposing a theory without evidence?

I am just proposing an alternate theory.

Until you cite some evidence, you don't have a theory, only a postulate.
And a flaky one. St. Paul wanted some scrolls. They could have been anything. And I am aware of no scholarly credence whatsoever for the theory that a NT canon was actually physically collected within the first century in time for John to be talking about that in Revelation. That's just crazy talk based on nothing.

powerful evidence of God’s hand in the preservation of His inspired Word.

Yes. In the Holy Spirit's guidance upon the Church. Otherwise known as the charism of truth which manifests itself both in the sensus fidelium and the magisterium.
Of course God's hand, or the guiding presence of the Holy Spirit, did not just guide the Church in its discernment of the extent of the word of God. It also guided the Church in its interpretation of the word of God. For example, concerning regeneration through water baptism, the eucharistic sacrifice, the NT priesthood, the apostolic succession of bishops, etc.

"It seems most likely..."etc.
Evidence, please.

Bernard,
Even if we accept your facts without question (which I'm sure most people here don't) - Why do you imply that the actions of the Apostles are not those of the Church? Why do you imply that God doesn't work through Church councils.

Any how--- as always SDG TIM J Esau INOCENCIO et al.... it's been a "riot"...If I offended someone please forgive me----you too mr. Keating!...God bless Y'all..
Same here!
I actually enjoy our conversations here (in spite of your dodging my questions every now and then ;^) ) because it certainly has strengthened my Faith all the more!
I really appreciate that!

If that which is Theopneustos (Scripture) needs outside human agency (Magisterium) to authenticate it

That is not the right way to put it, for two reasons: (a) Scripture doesn't need anything, and (b) the Magisterium represents the work of the Holy Spirit and thus is not a human agency.
Here is the right way to put it: We need the Holy Spirit working in the Church to faithfully and reliably attest which human books are written under Spirit's own inspiration and which are works of fallible human wisdom.

erick,
Let me make this as simple as possible for you --
This is how you keep on going about on various threads here -- repeating the same old circular reasoning, which apparantly escapes you --
1. I have a bible.
2. It contains books.
3. The books in it I accept as the bible.
4. I accept them as part of the bible because the bible contains them.
Need I go any further than this?
The fact of the matter is that you seem to think as if the bible just FELL FROM THE SKY COMPLETE WITH ALL THESE BOOKS!
However, you seem to FORGET THE FACT that ALL the books in YOUR BIBLE are actually SEPARATE BOOKS!
It was the Council of Rome that had to go through these as well as other books to figure which of them were indeed SCRIPTURE and which were not.
Furthermore, you KEEP OVERLOOKING the fact that THE CHURCH, itself, EXISTED BEFORE the SCRIPTURES!
You know -- there were those to whom the APOSTLES THEMSELVES handed over THEIR AUTHORITY; hence, the very one that DECIDED with THIS SAME AUTHORITY which comprised SCRIPTURE and which DID NOT.

Esau---
How about answering MY questions?....
Any how--- as always SDG TIM J Esau INOCENCIO et al.... it's been a "riot"...If I offended someone please forgive me----you too mr. Keating!...God bless Y'all..

If that which is Theopneustos (Scripture) needs outside human agency (Magisterium) to authenticate it
Again, how do YOU authenticate that the books contained in YOUR BIBLE is actually SCRIPTURE?
Can you simply answer that for me?
For example, what about the 151st Psalm?
Why don't you accept that as part of YOUR Psalms?
Also, as I asked in the distant past; how about HEBREWS?

If its true that "...none can stand without the other..."---
then how can it be true as well that Tradition begat Scripture?...since this would mean that there was a time when Tradition did not have Scripture to stand with?....

Esau- If that which is Theopneustos (Scripture) needs outside human agency (Magisterium) to authenticate it... then it is not surprising that you need outside human agency (Magisterium) to tell you THAT there is a God.

I believe Mike L at Sacramentum Vitae said it best:
"Rather, the Church teaches that "Sacred Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium are so linked and joined together that none can stand without the others" (Dei Verbum §10). Hence the Magisterium, taken in isolation as "the one and only way to know," does not stand even on Catholic premises."

I don't do well with circular reasoning
Apparantly, you do since you continue to subscribe to:
"I believe the Bible is the Word of God because the bible tells me so!"

Alright...!
So Tradition begat The Scriptures---yet one of the things Tradition is tested against is The Scriptures which it begat?. Sorry guys!....too redundant!
I don't do well with circular reasoning
!.Maybe it's time for me to say good bye for today!!!
Maybe I'll have me one of those 33.000 flavors before going to bed...!

Esau, sometimes it's about how you say it rather what you say. You know, the whole honey and vinegar bit. Erick's not going anywhere, try answering him more as if you're describing your beliefs so he can get to know you better rather than as if you're trying to beat him in a debate.

erick,
What did the early Christians do before the New Testament was written?
In your understanding when was the canon of Sacred Scripture set?
What authority set the canon?
Why do you even accept the canon?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Tradition came first, before even the Old Testament was written God's revelation to man was handed down orally. You could then say that Tradition begat the Scriptures. The Magisterium proceeds from Scripture and Tradition.
Brian Walden,
Thanks for that!
Although, I have tried telling erick this in my posts:
1. ORAL Tradition in the OLD Testament
2. ORAL Tradition in the NEW Testament
Some folks just can't do without their Baskin Robbins 33,000 Flavors! ;^)
(j/k erick)

So against what do you guys test the veracity of tradition?.
Tradition (oral revelation) is tested against Scripture (written revelation) and the Magisterium (official church teaching).
This might be an unorthodox way of describing it, but I think of it kind of like the Trinity. Tradition came first, before even the Old Testament was written God's revelation to man was handed down orally. You could then say that Tradition begat the Scriptures. The Magisterium proceeds from Scripture and Tradition. It's an imperfect metaphor, but it helps me to understand it.

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