New CDF Document! New CDF Document!

by Jimmy Akin on May 30, 2008

in Canon Law

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is not normally tasked with adding provisions to canon law, but under the direction of the pope, it can do whatever he wants it to.

And it has.

A new CDF document provides a latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication for those who attempt to ordain women and for those women who receive such attempted ordinations.

TEXT:

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

General Decree

On the delict of attempted sacred ordination of a woman

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in virtue of the special faculty granted to it by the Supreme Authority of the Church (cf. Can. 30, Code of Canon Law), in order to safeguard the nature and validity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, decreed, in the Ordinary Session of December 19, 2007:

In accordance with what is disposed by Can. 1378 of the Code of Canon Law, he who shall have attempted to confer holy orders on a woman, as well as the woman who may have attempted to receive Holy Orders, incurs in a latae sententiae excommunication, reserved to the Apostolic See.

If he who shall have attempted to confer Holy Orders on a woman or if the woman who shall have attempted to received Holy Orders is a faithful bound to the Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches, he is to be punished with the major excommunication, whose remission remains reserved to the Apostolic See, in accordance with can. 1443 of the same Code (cf. can. 1423, Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches).

The present decree enters in force immediately after its publication in L’Osservatore Romano.

William Cardinal Levada
Prefect
Angelo Amato, s.d.b.
Titular Archbishop of Sila
Secretary

First, HERE’S CANON 1378 IN THE CIC.

And HERE’S CANON 1443 OF THE CCEO.

Now, SOME COMMENTARY BY ED PETERS.

Finally, a few thoughts of my own:

It’s interesting, as Ed points out, that the Holy See has gone in the direction of creating a new latae sententiae penalty rather than continuing the trend of abolishing them.

On the part of bishops there may be something of a preference for latae sententiae penalties in that they do not require the bishop to himself take the action of imposing a canonical penalty on one of his subjects–an action that is bound to be portrayed in terms of the harsh disciplinarian stereotype in the popular press. It is much easier for a bishop to say "So-and-so has excommunicated himself/herself by these actions" than "I hereby excommunicate so-and-so for these actions."

I think that in this case, though, there may be an additional and perhaps more fundamental reason for the penalty (at least in the Latin rite) being a latae sententiae one: These ordinations frequently occur in secret.

That’s how they got started, after all: If the claims of the original group of female ordinands are to be believed, they found a Catholic bishop somewhere who was willing to perform the initial ordinations. That man’s identity has not been revealed.

And subsequent to that event, some of these women have simulated ordination in secret or at least without their identities initially being known to their bishops.

The use of a latae sententiae penalty in this case sends a signal that simply keeping the identities of the parties a secret will not keep them from suffering excommunication. You can’t tell yourself, if you are a bishop or a prospective ordinand, "I’m free of canonical penalties as long as nobody knows I did this so that no penalties can be imposed on me."

Instead, the latae sententiae penalty in this case says, "The Church takes this crime so seriously that it provides for excommunication even when the parties, or even the fact, of the crime are unknown."

The same can be said of all the other latae sententiae penalties, such as the excommunication provided for abortion.

One might still question whether we should have latae sententiae penalties in the Latin rite, but I think that the reason for this one is more than just a desire to get bishops "off the hook" for having to impose a penalty. It’s a sign of the Church’s particularly strong desire to alert those who attempt these ordinations to the gravity of their actions.

Since the current decree is not retroactive, it will not touch those who have previously attempted these ordinations (including the original bishop, assuming that there was one), but it does send the signal going forward to all who would participate in them.

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Fr. Bourgeois was not excommunicated for his part in the ordination of a female to the priesthood. Why not, because the CDF decree only applies to Bishops who attempt such acts.
Jim

Fr. Bourgeois was not excommunicated for his part in the ordination of a female to the priesthood. Why not, because the CDF decree only applies to Bishops who attempt such acts.
Jim

Fr. Bourgeois was not excommunicated for his part in the ordination of a female to the priesthood. Why not, because the CDF decree only applies to Bishops who attempt such acts.
Jim

Fr. Bourgeois was not excommunicated for his part in the ordination of a female to the priesthood. Why not, because the CDF decree only applies to Bishops who attempt such acts.
Jim

Fr. Bourgeois was not excommunicated for his part in the ordination of a female to the priesthood. Why not, because the CDF decree only applies to Bishops who attempt such acts.
Jim

One quibble with Leo's struggle with the Bridegroom/Bride metaphor. Scripture says that volumes could be filled with the words and acts of Christ. What was written was divinely inspired, and the fact that God penned it rather than recording something else, makes it, for me, normative (to use Leo's word). Christ said it and that is the gospel truth.

Review of Sr. Butler's book, The Catholic Priesthood and Women found on First Things website:
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=857
The reviewer generally agrees with Butler but suggests a greater emphasis on the theological arguments.

Leo's difficulty with the "reasons why" arguments illustrates a general problem analyzed with great clarity by Sr. Sara Butler, MSBT, in her paper "Ordination: Reviewing the 'Fundamental Reasons.'"
There are fundamental reasons for the reservation of priestly orders to men, and there are theological arguments showing why this reservation is "fitting"; the fact that the latter are vulnerable, at least at first glance, to various objections does not dispose of the fundamental reasons why ordination of women to the Catholic priesthood will always be impossible.

@Leo
Can you give us the name of the Seminary that requires the physical medical exam for entry? Also what was the actual Vocational Formation did he receive afterwards?

Leo: I appreciate the inquiring spirit you bring to this question. I will try to comment further when I have some more time.

Leo,
One argument that could be made is the fact that while there were female priests in several religions at the time when Jesus walked among sinners, He chose twelve men to lead the Church. After claiming Divinity and commanding His disciples to eat "My Body," refusing to make women priests at a time when there were female priests in other religions must have a point. Who are we to challenge Jesus?
Also, as SDG pointed out, for centuries certain things were accepted by all Christians, including that only men could be priests (or ministers). If this were, as you say a "most spectacular counter-witness to the gospel and natural justice," it would seem that the Holy Spirit would have done something about it long ago, right?

I struggle to understand the reasoning behind this.
I am not convinced of the validity of the arguments, I have so far encountered, as to WHY some men can be ordained priest/bishop but no women can. ie a woman can no more be ordained than a cat be baptized.
These are some of the difficulties I have with the reasons why arguments:
Underlying this is the need to find a universal and permanent difference between those men capable of being ordained and all women. If the relevant sacramental difference is not universal and permanent then there could be a time/place/situation when women could be ordained. All the psychological differences between males and females I have, so far, come across are general rather than universal cf men are generally taller than women but not all men are taller than all women. There are nurturing 'feminine' men and aggressive 'masculine' women. There are females who satisfy the 'male' psychological descriptions given above and vice-versa. For the argument to work one must find a universal and permanent difference, which is not changeable by circumstance/society/education. The only universal and permanent difference I can think of between those men eligible for ordination and everyone else is - testicles. Testicles do not seem to be the most important factor in (celibate) priesthood. This might seem flippant to some but I know of a man who was refused ordination because of an undescended testicle (BTW he went on to marry, father children and become a locally noted lawyer and politician).
Acting in persona Christi. The minister of every sacrament acts in persona Christi. This includes Baptism, which can be ad-ministered by a female. One of the ministers of the sacrament of marriage is necessarily female - unless one only allows male-male sacramental marriage. Women are enabled by God to act in persona Christi in at least two sacraments, and are therefore "female Christ". In persona Christi, on its own, does not seem to be a valid reason.
The Bridegroom/Bride 'metaphor' is one of a number of Eucharistic 'metaphors', a 'more normative' one, in my view, is the Paschal Lamb (Agnus Dei qui tollis ...). It seems to me to be taking one 'metaphor' as solely normative and straining it too far. If the one acting as Bridegroom must be male, then does it follow that the one(s) acting as Bride must be female? Therefore only males can be priests and only females can be members of the Church and only females can receive the Eucharist?
Please understand that I am not trying to be awkward. There are some here far more learned than I on these matters. I need to test the validity of arguments whose conclusions appear to many to be the most spectacular counter-witness to the gospel and natural justice.
NB Since I am trying to understand more than argue a position I might need to maintain a reflective silence for a while.

The first covenant between God and man was the marital covenant carried out by a male and female. Christ spiritually affirms this. He is the Bridegroom, the Church is the Bride. Christ (male), the Church referred to in Scripture as female. The priest acts in persona Christi. To have women ordained would result in a woman spiritually wedded to the Church (a female and female nuptial if you will) and, thus, contrary to how it was in the beginning

Dear Kineticritcality,
It is very late and I have finals next week, but I thought I would give myself an hour to try to answer those two questions. SDG is correct (I will touch on this in a few minutes), but your question was more pointed: how does one know which passages of Scripture are to be taken literally and which are figurative. The literal ones (presumably) are those which one must follow to the letter.
To begin with, the Church has considered this question (most recently, at Vatican II) and published a document, De Verbum, on divine revelation. It may be found, here .
Although how to understand Scripture varies, in classic Catholic Biblical hermeneutics, there are understood to be four "senses" of Scripture. The Catholic Catechism gives the following:
1143. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.
The senses of Scripture
115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.
116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83
117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".85
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86
118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:
The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87
119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88
But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me. - St. Augustine [my note]
In other words, every word of Scripture is useful in one of these fours senses. Jesus's saying about tearing out one's eye is part of the spiritual sense of Scripture. One must understand the literal sense before one can understand the other senses, otherwise, one runs the risk of injecting one's own interpretations. The literal sense goes to what happened in plain sight. The other senses go beyond the literal sense to draw lessons.
The Church allows some latitude in the interpretation of many passages. There are only a few passages that She has explicitly pronounced an interpretation on, but the ones that She has pronounced on are important - things such as divorce.
There are a few good commentaries on Scripture from a Catholic point of view which will help the average reader understand both the literal and spiritual senses of the passages of Scripture. The best one (in my opinion and many others) - A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture (Bernard Orchard; 1951) - is out of print (it was written before Vatican II), but is available for reading, online, here It will help you to understand what the Church considers about each passage of Scripture. One can become extremely literal and dangerously scrupulous in reading Scripture. It is never a good idea to read Scripture without at least talking it over with others.
As to SDG's point: it is a fact that the statement, "The bible is the sole rule of faith," - so-called, Sola Scriptura, if it were true, would imply that God were not the author of the Bible! Let me explain. Protestants should have been able to see this since 1935, but they have walked past it. Here is the argument:
It is known, rigorously, that a statement of the form, "X is true, if and only if, p", where X is a meta-statement of p, in a closed system, must lead to a contradiction. In other words, the statement:
The bible is the sole rule of faith if and only if the Bible really is the sole rule of faith
would have had to have been made in the Bible itself (otherwise, it could not be the sole rule of faith), and is, thus, self-referential. Regardless of whether or not it says so in Scripture, this formulation of Sola Scriptura - the most common one, matches the template above. Thus, if the Bible is self-referencing as to its authority, it must necessarily introduce a contradiction. Now, God cannot be the author of a contradiction, since a contradiction has no truth value and God is Truth. Thus, God could not be the author of Scripture if the Bible were the sole rule of faith.
What Luther failed to realize was that in order for the Bible to be the word of God, in order to avoid the contradiction, a self-referential system can still be correct if there is something outside of the system - a meta-system, that can pronounce on it. In order for Scripture to have moral force, Jesus must (must) have left something outside of Scripture that could authenticate it, otherwise, he could not be its author (because of the contradiction of making a self-referential object self-authenticating). Who has the right to issue statements about Scripture? There can only be one, otherwise, there is no unity to Truth.
Thus, by the very nature that one is able to see that the Bible is the Word of God, it must necessarily imply an interpreter. The only consistent voice is the Catholic Church. Individuals cannot interpret Scripture (at least not with authority). This leads to the opposite of a contradiction: it leads to a plurality of Truth, but God is singular and so is his Truth. Thus, neither sola Scriptura nor private interpretation can be supported, logically.
It is not a matter of what one wants to believe. It is a simple fact that if one is to believe in the Bible, one must believe in the Church. SDG was led to this conclusion by experience, but it is logically provable, as well. This line of reasoning has never been put forth to defend against sola Scriptura, before, to my knowledge, but it applies to any closed referential system, so it is rigorously provable and to my mind, closes the door on the whole subject. One cannot argue from feelings or from private revelation. If one wants the Bible, one must also have the Church. They come as a package.
Protestants, as much as they will deny it, implicitly believe in the Church every time they quote Scripture. I talked a month or so ago about the difference between implicit and explicit faith. Protestants will explicitly deny the Church's right to pronounce on Scripture, but they must assume it everytime.
Thus, the short answer of how to know which passages of Scripture are to be taken literally and which figuratively: ask the Church. Where the Church has not pronounced, there is freedom (within the limits of reason).
The second question - why there cannot be women priests is a somewhat more subtle question. Let me start the ball rolling. Others can jump in. To begin with, it is absolutely essential to understanding the Catholic position to read the document, Inter Insigniores. It may be found, here . I cannot get into everything contained within the document (it is 1:33 am), but I did want to mention a few things.
In the beginning of Scripture, God is dividing things: light and darkness, water and land, plant and animal. Then this amazing passage occurs:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Notice that it says, "in the image of God he created him ," but then, immediately, "male and female he created them". This is the first indication that, although men and women were to be united in anthropology, they were to be divided in purpose.
Both were called to be fruitful and multiply, but in different ways. Each was given a different task: Eve was to bear children, but God specifically put Adam to tilling the soil. This differentiation is specifically shown after the fall when God spoke individually to the man and the woman:
Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."
Gen 3:17 And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
Gen 3:18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
Gen 3:20 The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
Had there been a unanimity in how each were to be fruitful, they would have shared the same punishment. Both were frustrated in the act of creating as punishment, but the nature of the creation was different for the man and the woman.
Now, Jesus is the New Adam, the new man and Mary is the new Eve, the new woman. There is still a differentiation of creation, even in the new Dispensation, because it was that way, from the beginning.
What is the nature of the differentiation? Women and men create differently. They are fruitful in different ways. Women are fruitful from within - thus, they bear children from the substance of their own bodies and they safeguard the home. Men are fruitful from without - they require instrumentality to create and they safeguard the family.
What is the primary purpose of priesthood? It is to offer sacrifice - sacrificus in latin, from sacra and facere, literally, to make sacred or holy. The sense of holiness meaning separated is important, here. A sacrifice involves a separation from the person. Now, anthropologically speaking, in the act of creation, the woman is joined to the object she is creating, from the start. From the start, the man is separate from what he creates (or re-creates). It is no accident that Jesus had to be nailed to the cross. He was separated from it. In a sense, the author of life was re-united to the tree of life.
Thus, it is more fitting that a male offer the sacrifice for the whole human race, at least, in pattern.
Now, as far as the priesthood being a sacrament, if one looks at the pattern of the sacraments in Scripture, one finds a curious thing: every sacrament involves the transformation of one thing into another (one must have the correct, "thing" or substance to be transformed) and secondly, Jesus performed the sacramental sign for both men and women in every case, except one. Let us look:
1. Baptism - Jesus said to go out to all the world and baptize. This includes men and women
2. Eucharist - Jesus feed the five thousand - this was just the men. Women were in the crowd, as well.
3. Confirmation - those who were baptized were also confirmed, male and female. Classic example: Priscilla and Aquila
4. Confession - Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery and the paralyzed man who was let down on a mat.
5. Marriage - by its very nature
6. Anointing of the sick - St. James said - "Is anyone sick." Anyone is male or female.
The sacrament of Holy Orders is never conferred, however, on anyone except males. Why?
Part of the reason is that each sacrament requires valid matter to bring it about, something that Christ uses as a sign to give grace. A Sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by Christ, that gives grace, There are three parts to every sacrament:
1. the outward sign
2. the inward grace
3. Divine institution
The effects of the sacrament are produced, ex opere operato, which means, by virtue of the work done on the valid matter, not simply by believing (which is called, ex opere operantis - by virtue of the agent doing the work).
What is the valid matter of the sacraments? This shown by what Christ used (or the early Church used). For baptism: water; for Eucharist: bread and wine; for Confirmation: imposition of hands and holy oil; for Marriage: a man and a woman; for Confession: a sinful person (either gender); for Anointing of the Sick: a sick person and holy oils. What did Christ use to confer the sacrament of Holy Orders: men. Christ broke many social conventions of his time. Had he ordained that women would be valid matter for the sacrament, he would have ordained a woman. His own mother, who is the only person in history to have the fullness of grace, was never made a priest. If it were simply a matter of dignity, she would have the greatest claim and yet, at the foot of the Cross, when Jesus gave his last will and testament, he did not say to St. John, behold your priest, but behold your mother.
All believers are made priests by virtue of their baptism, so that all may offer sacrifices, but the difference between this preisthood and Holy Orders is that priests do not offer sacrifices - they offer a Sacrifice - one very specific Sacrifice. In a sense, only Christ may offer this sacrifice, Just as he used bread and wine to remind us that the Eucharist is not only his flesh but a meal, so he uses men to remind us that it is He who offers The Sacrifice.
Every sacrament relies on an object connected to the earth - be it bread and wine, grown from the earth or oils, or water, or even men and women (the dust of the earth), but in the sacrafice of the Mass, something is created outside - outside of time, outside of imperfection outside of the earth from the substance of the earth. It was given to man to till the earth, to create outside. Women create from the inside. A woman has already given birth to God, once, for all. She cannot do it, again. Man is now fulfilling his role in the economy of salvation by taking what the Woman gave and making it visible, again. If a woman were to do this, she would deny man an essential component of his being - he, also, must give birth to Christ, but he must do it instrumentally, by changing bread into the body of Christ, just as Mary changed her own bodily cells into that of Christ's (an odd way of looking at it, but it is true). One can truthfully say that women have already had their chance.
Thus, not only are women the wrong sign, anthropologically, they are also the wrong matter and that is to be taken literally. Christ did not allow female priests, not because it would have denied the woman, but because it would have denied the man.
It is really late. Read, Inter Insigniores. It says things more completely than I can, here.
The Chicken

Chicken, both those issues are the issues where I feel most conflicted about the Episcopal vs the Catholic church: why can't women be priests (rather, what is the biblical justification for this prohibition) and to what extent is biblical literalism promoted/followed vs biblical interpretation.

K,
On the first point, I would begin to reply something like this:
I was raised in a church (Dutch Reformed) that was hopelessly divided on what the Bible taught on this subject. The issue had an absolute stranglehold on the denomination. Sometimes it seemed they never talked about anything else.
Everybody had a biblical justification for their views. First I listened to one side, and their case sounded good; then I listened to the other and their case sounded good too. I went back and forth and eventually realized that no matter how long and hard I studied the issue, there would always be Christians who are more knowledgeable and holier than I was who disagreed on the biblical justification.
It didn't take me long to realize there were other topics with similar issues, e.g., pedobaptism (even though in my own church we didn't dispute about that; other Christians did). Eventually I decided that whatever my Protestant forebears meant by the "perspicacity" or clarity of scripture was either not true or not sufficiently helpful in such matters for ordinary Christians like me (even if they happen to be reasonably bright, motivated, sincere, privileged with access to resources and leisure for study, etc.).
This raises a key question. You say you're concerned about the biblical justification for the teaching. But what is the the biblical justification for the belief that there has to be a biblical justification. Where does the Bible teach that?
The issue of the canon of scripture adds another layer of difficulty. When I first looked into the canon, I was obviously eager to find Protestant arguments justifying our canon, and I was quite willing to go with the arguments I found for the most part. There were a few rough edges here and there: Granted that Jesus had given special teaching authority to the apostles, I wasn't sure there was a biblical basis for extending that to books by non-apostles like Luke and Mark (even granting the traditional authorship of these books as well as the Gospels of Matthew and John, etc.). But then there were books like Hebrews where we didn't even know the author at all.
I was rather chagrined when I first ran across the phrase "a fallible collection of infallible books," but I wasn't sure there was any better alternative. Calling the canon "a fallible collection" is another way of saying it could be wrong: Perhaps inspired books were left out, or uninspired books included.
But then a curious thing happened. When I tried to think through the possibility that a book like Hebrews might not really be inspired and perhaps the whole Church had been wrong for nearly 2000 years about this, I found that I simply could not pursue that line of thought without calling into question the whole fabric of the Christian faith.
What Martin Luther tried to do, dissecting the NT canon and calling into question the books that he personally found "unrevealing" or "strawy" is not something that any individual Christian has authority to do.
Anyway I stared down the book of Hebrews and found that I had no authority to question it -- not because its inspiration or authority is "self-attesting" or self-evident or anything of the sort, but because it had been universally accepted by Christians for centuries, and if the entire Church -- not just these Christians or those Christians, but all Christians everywhere -- could be wrong about that, what might they not be wrong about?
I realized that I believed that the Holy Spirit is always present in the Church, attesting to the true faith -- if not necessarily always leading bishops or councils into the truth (I wasn't yet ready to accept that), at least necessarily always leading somebody. Whatever is universally attested for centuries as an article of faith, then, must represent the leading of the Holy Spirit, for if it were not it wouldn't be universally attested for centuries as an article of faith: The Holy Spirit would lead someone, somewhere to attest the truth.
Without knowing it, I had formulated for myself the Vincentian canon: Quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus creditum est (what has always, everywhere and by everyone been believed). Obviously this isn't a sure mark of all truth -- i.e., there can be truth that is not universally attested, but whatever is universally attested is certainly of the faith. The Holy Spirit doesn't leave the Church without guidance on any true article of faith.
Readings in the early church, particularly regarding the heresies, confirmed this pattern. You don't have the Arians or the Pelagians standing up and perverting the faith and then centuries and centuries passing before the Holy Spirit raises up someone to rebut them. Every heresy is answered in its own generation.
As a Protestant, I had been raised to think of the Christian faith as "what the Bible teaches." Reading Bible verses like Jude 3 (which refers to "the faith once for all given to the saints") with these thoughts in my head, it occurred to me that the Christian faith could also be described as "what Christians believe," at least where Christians are agreed in faith, or even where they have been agreed.
From that point of view, I saw no room for disputing the canonicity of Hebrews -- but also no room for questioning the validity of pedobaptism, which may not always have been practiced but was certainly never regarded in the Church as an incorrect or invalid form of baptism, or as grounds for rebaptism at a point of personal belief. More startlingly, I also saw that I would have to accept baptism as more important and decisive than I had previously understood.
And, returning to the ordination of women, I see no grounds for dispute on this point either. The dissenters can make a show of repairing to a few arguably ambiguous texts here and there in the early Fathers and the New Testament. I could make a better case for rejecting the book of Revelation. The witness of the early Church and subsequent generations on this point is clear and convincing. To believe the Christian faith on this point is to accept what Christians have historically believed.
That's only a beginning, of course. It doesn't get into the whole theology of priesthood and why Christ chose only men as apostles, etc. But I think it's important to start here.

Chicken, both those issues are the issues where I feel most conflicted about the Episcopal vs the Catholic church: why can't women be priests (rather, what is the biblical justification for this prohibition) and to what extent is biblical literalism promoted/followed vs biblical interpretation. That is, I really just don't understand how some verses justify or define behavior principles after abstraction for content, and how some are taken as literally true governing principles of Christian thought.
K

I haven't followed this thread from the beginning, so I don't know if this was asked before: Art, if this women is real, why can she not speak for herself here, on this blog?

you will have to look harder for the words in question
No, I leave that for the one who has a question. I do not.
if anything I'm giving "her" more credit than you, since my version takes her at her word whereas yours merely describes her behavior
Your "her" is not the she with whom I've talked.
"Immoral" should have been "unjust," as in "as unjust as forbidding her to breathe."
As in the context of her expressing her understanding that she's to obey what God is calling her to do. That's a context of obedience, not disobedience. She came seeking help with her understanding because she wants to be obedient and the Church is saying she'd be disobedient if she were to attempt to be ordained. Her state of mind from beginning to end has always been that she desires to be obedient to God, and that includes being obedient to His Church. With that state of mind she came seeking help. With that state of mind she perseveres.
I never said I was unsure or merely unconvinced. From the statement "This is not convincing" it does not follow that I am unsure or merely unconvinced.
This is not convincing.
If that is her quest, it is false to say that "She's focused on Q1... it's the only question she has."
Your claim fails on multiple points. For one, a quest is not a question. Two, in expressing her quest, I was not expressing her focus but rather an outside view of her quest.
Not convincing to whom?
It's not convincing to any of the multiple parties actually present in the series of conversations with her.
the most unconvincing thing about your comments to date is that you ever had a real person in mind to begin with.
The parties involved do not need convincing.

But that's not what you did. For example, '"feels called to be a priest"' and '"immoral"' are actually your words that you stuffed between quotations marks.

Since those phrases didn't change in the two versions you quoted, you will have to look harder for the words in question.
As regards the phrases you now cite, I don't think the slight variation between "feels called to be a priest" and "says she's called by God to be a priest" is worth talking about (if anything I'm giving "her" more credit than you, since my version takes her at her word whereas yours merely describes her behavior). "Immoral" should have been "unjust," as in "as unjust as forbidding her to breathe." If you have any substantial points beyond copy-edits, feel free to submit them now.

You first claimed it's patently obvious that the states are not the same, and then you erased your claim to say instead you're not convinced they could be the same. In other words, you changed your claim from saying it's "patently obvious" to saying you're not sure.

I didn't. I never said I was unsure or merely unconvinced. From the statement "This is not convincing" it does not follow that I am unsure or merely unconvinced.

Of course, how she'd ever get a better answer than the one Rome has already given her is her quest.

If that is her quest, it is false to say that "She's focused on Q1. The target is her universe. In that, nothing else exists to be dodged or attempted, nor has there ever been or will there ever be… She's focused on Q1 because it's the only question she has."

it remains in sum that it's not convincing that she's contemplating an attempt to be ordained.

Not convincing to whom? Some would opine that you're a blob of Jell-O that says whatever is necessary at the moment to avoid being nailed to the wall. Others would opine that any statement that begins "It's unconvincing that she..." is equally unconvincing, because the most unconvincing thing about your comments to date is that you ever had a real person in mind to begin with.
Whether Jell-O can be nailed to the wall is one question. Whether it can be separated into discrete blobs and sealed in individual containers that cannot credibly be seen as a single blob is another. The discrete blobs of Jell-O might never stop saying "We're still one blob really!" At some point, one closes the refrigerator door and walks away.

Neither. I just liked the literary effect of using your words against you.
But that's not what you did. For example, '"feels called to be a priest"' and '"immoral"' are actually your words that you stuffed between quotations marks. You speak of using my words against me but to what do your words point? My words point to a face I've seen, a voice I've heard, a hand I've held, a love I know.
Anyone can see for themselves that there is no contradiction between the two versions of the sentence you quoted
Who says there must be a "contradiction" between your versions for there to be a change in state of mind? You first claimed it's patently obvious that the states are not the same, and then you erased your claim to say instead you're not convinced they could be the same. In other words, you changed your claim from saying it's "patently obvious" to saying you're not sure.
Some would opine that your morphing claims reflect a change in your state of mind. Others would opine otherwise, to include questioning the reality of so-called "state of mind." Or, as I pointed to before, does a painter's state of mind change just because the picture he paints evolves in your view?
Whatever it is she may have meant by the various individual things she said cut and sliced, it remains in sum that it's not convincing that she's contemplating an attempt to be ordained. My followups with her have indicated she's focused on understanding whether Rome is right in its assertion. Of course, how she'd ever get a better answer than the one Rome has already given her is her quest.

Did your state of mind change between your edits of your post? Or did your previous words, which you erased in your edit, not accurately reflect what you were trying to say?

Neither. I just liked the literary effect of using your words against you.
Anyone can see for themselves that there is no contradiction between the two versions of the sentence you quoted. Just as they can see that there is among the morphing claims you have made about your imaginary aspirant to the priesthood, er, disinterested theological inquirer.

SDG's earlier version: It is patently obvious that the state of mind described in the earlier quotes... is not the same as the state of mind described in the later quotes
That is a reflection of your state of mind. Of course, "We cannot talk with equal clarity about everything at once." Some things are presented earlier and some later. That does not mean there's been any change on whole.
SDG's edited version: What is not convincing is that the state of mind described in the earlier quotes... could possibly be the same as the state of mind described in the later quotes
Did your state of mind change between your edits of your post? Or did your previous words, which you erased in your edit, not accurately reflect what you were trying to say? The woman I spoke with did not have the opportunity to erase what she said, except to the extent that I might give her that opportunity by not holding her to some fixed idea of what she was trying to say. Her words are like strokes of a brush on canvas, but few if any would call her an artist. After looking at a few of her strokes, it might look like she's trying to depict a dog. A few other strokes, it might look like a cat. But what is she trying to depict? Could be a dog, a cat or something else. We'd talk some more and she'd add more strokes. At times, she'd stop to wash her brushes in her tears, but that too may be part of the painting.
You're as dishonest as many of them are.
Is a painter dishonest because she isn't an artist on our terms, or because at first it may look like a dog and then a cat? Or because he erases/whitewashes the canvas in order to start again? I take care, insofar as possible to me, to interpret my neighbor's thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way. If you cannot do likewise, I will.

David E. Kelly should read this blog, 'cause SDG is speaking truths.

In sum, it's not convincing that she's contemplating an attempt to be ordained.

What is not convincing is that the state of mind described in the earlier quotes (of one who "feels called to be a priest" and indeed regards opposition to this course as "immoral," on a level with opposition to breathing) could possibly be the same as the state of mind described in the later quotes (of one for whom "nothing else exists" but the purely theoretical question whether the Church's teaching against women's ordination is, not even true or false, but only infallibly proposed or not).
You're a good devil's advocate for the dissenters, At. You're as dishonest as many of them are.

SDG,
In sum, it's not convincing that she's contemplating an attempt to be ordained. Yes, a person may approach the piano by saying, "I want to take lessons," and the fuller expression may be, "I want to takes lessons with the aim of actually playing the piano." But this woman comes saying, "I want to play the piano," and has never said she wants to take lessons, i.e. attempt an ordination. Many people would like to play the piano, but don't want to take lessons and practice. They may say, "But it shouldn't be so hard! There must be an easy way." But it is what it is. She admits she doesn't know everything and that she's not infallible. She called for support, for help, not to attempt ordination, but to understand, to reconcile.
Mary,
Balderdash. It is you who are doing any conferring that is being done. You brought it up. You get to explain the reason why it is significiant.
Explain what? It was you who asked, "For what reason does her focus confer importance on issues and unimportance on those she does not focus on?" Those are your words. I didn't say her focus confers importance / unimportance on anything. Have you conferred that I have?
People can try to dodge an issue by focussing on a separate issue.
She's focused on the question she has, not to dodge, but to understand.
prove that the woman in question is indeed so insane that she is focused on something so exclusively that she can not be aware that it is subject to the penalty of excommunication.
Prove what? I don't claim she's insane. She's focused on a question of what is right, and that question is not subject to a penalty of excommunication. A person may be subject to the penalty of excommunication, not a question, and only if that person does something that warrants it. She has not done anything that warrants it nor can I say she is contemplating doing so.

For what reason does her focus confer importance on issues and unimportance on those she does not focus on?
Ask yourself. She's focused on Q1. If you confer something from that, that's you doing the conferring, not her.
Balderdash. It is you who are doing any conferring that is being done. You brought it up. You get to explain the reason why it is significiant.
Especially since your third sentence does not support your first one. You can attempt or pretend to dode an issue precisely by focusing on separate one.
You, because you're not focused on Q1, may interpret it as such, but again, that's you, not her.
Balderdash, again. That is a statement of fact. People can try to dodge an issue by focussing on a separate issue. Indeed, it has a name: ignoratio elenchi.
She's focused on Q1. The target is her universe. In that, nothing else exists to be dodged or attempted, nor has there ever been or will there ever be.
Leaving aside your claim that she has her own private universe, prove that the woman in question is indeed so insane that she is focused on something so exclusively that she can not be aware that it is subject to the penalty of excommunication.

"When a woman calls to flat out say she wants to be a priest, is her aim merely to 'attempt to secure (attempted) ordination'? Or is her aim and her struggle as she understands it to secure (real) ordination. Does a person struggle with piano lessons for years with the mere aim to 'attempt' to play the piano? Or is such a person's aim and struggle to actually play the piano. Indeed, she may say, 'I want to take lessons,' but the fuller expression is, 'I want to takes lessons with the aim of actually playing the piano."
"'What I understand is that God calls me and many women to be priests and a prohibition against that is invalid. Why should there be a penalty for doing what I in my conscience believe is right?'"
"she'd say you must be a fallible parent because your prohibition and punishment are as unjust as forbidding her to breathe. Like I said, she says she's called by God to be a priest, and anything that stands between is wrong."
"From her perspective, that God is calling her to be a Catholic priest"
"She's focused on Q1. The target is her universe. In that, nothing else exists to be dodged or attempted, nor has there ever been or will there ever be."
"Where did she say she's contemplating an attempt to be ordained? She wasn't seeking my support to do that. Much as she may feel called to be a priest, she called me because she's questioning if Rome is correct (or transversely phrased, she's questioning what she considers to be a real possibility that she's wrong) and seeking my support in her pursuit of the truth. She's not claiming to know better than Rome, and I do not presume in the least that she's mulling over some unauthorized attempt to be ordained. She's seeking to reconcile her understanding with what Rome has said. Again, she's seeking to reconcile with Rome, not to oppose her."
"She's focused on Q1 because it's the only question she has."

You seem to be confusing the question of obedience or disobedience with the quite distinct question of reward or punishment (Q2 vs. Q3).
Why should she (or you) be questioning her obedience or disobedience on the ordination of women? She's not contemplating an attempt to be ordained, much less actually attempting it. She's focused on Q1.
"For example, I recently received a call from a woman who works at a Catholic church. She told me she wants to be a priest and asked for my support," you wrote, a desire apparently quite outside the scope of what you now say is her focus.
Where did she say she's contemplating an attempt to be ordained? She wasn't seeking my support to do that. Much as she may feel called to be a priest, she called me because she's questioning if Rome is correct (or transversely phrased, she's questioning what she considers to be a real possibility that she's wrong) and seeking my support in her pursuit of the truth. She's not claiming to know better than Rome, and I do not presume in the least that she's mulling over some unauthorized attempt to be ordained. She's seeking to reconcile her understanding with what Rome has said. Again, she's seeking to reconcile with Rome, not to oppose her.
from no answer to Q1 does it follow that it is even possible, let alone feasible or desirable, for her to be a priest.
I'm not aware of anyone instructing her that any answer to Q1 would make it possible, feasible or desirable for her to be a priest. She's focused on Q1 because it's the only question she has.

She's focused on Q1, not on a question of whether Rome's handing out ice cream or spankings.

You seem to be confusing the question of obedience or disobedience with the quite distinct question of reward or punishment (Q2 vs. Q3).

She's focused on Q1.

"For example, I recently received a call from a woman who works at a Catholic church. She told me she wants to be a priest and asked for my support," you wrote, a desire apparently quite outside the scope of what you now say is her focus. Yet as noted above, from no answer to Q1 does it follow that it is even possible, let alone feasible or desirable, for her to be a priest.

No Catholic contemplating a course of action contrary to what the Church allows gets to pretend that the question of submission or defiance to the Church is "not something I'm focused on right now,"
She's focused on Q1, not on a question of whether Rome's handing out ice cream or spankings. Focused on Q1, she has no need to pretend that what's not in her focus is not in her focus, nor does she.
if she's contemplating attempting to receive Holy Orders, it is manifestly untrue that "She's focused on Q1" (i.e., "Is Rome correct to assert that the teaching that men only are validly ordained is infallibly defined?").
"Contemplating attempting to receive Holy Orders" are your words. She's focused on Q1.

No Catholic contemplating a course of action contrary to what the Church allows gets to pretend that the question of submission or defiance to the Church is "not something I'm focused on right now," any more than a child contemplating breaking his parents' rules gets to pretend that the question of submission or defiance is "not something I'm focused on right now."
Besides, if she's contemplating attempting to receive Holy Orders, it is manifestly untrue that "She's focused on Q1" (i.e., "Is Rome correct to assert that the teaching that men only are validly ordained is infallibly defined?"). From no answer to that question does it follow that any particular person ought to seek Holy Orders -- or even that it is possible for women to be ordained.

Mary,
For what reason does her focus confer importance on issues and unimportance on those she does not focus on?
Ask yourself. She's focused on Q1. If you confer something from that, that's you doing the conferring, not her.
Especially since your third sentence does not support your first one. You can attempt or pretend to dode an issue precisely by focusing on separate one.
You, because you're not focused on Q1, may interpret it as such, but again, that's you, not her. She's focused on Q1. The target is her universe. In that, nothing else exists to be dodged or attempted, nor has there ever been or will there ever be.

Dear Mary,
You wrote:
No honest inquiry can be heresy. Heresy is the reaching of a definite conclusion.
"This matter is open to question" is a definite conclusion. The exact nature of the matter will determine whether it is a heretic one.
Actually, your statement, "This matter is open to question," is a meta-statement about the matter, not a conclusion about the matter, itself, thus inquiry cannot be heretical, only conclusions about the topic of the inquiry, itself, as you say.
The Chicken

Dear Kineticriticality,
It occurs to me that you are KC and I am KFC (I hope you are American or the joke won't work...)
Some comments to your comments:
First of all, since we are discussing a matter of prudence, you may have a different opinion on the matter of the unmarried priesthood and still be a Catholic as long as you also acknowledge the very mild idea that the Church has the right to set some boundaries on its members and how they act within the Church, as long as these disciplines are not immoral, per se, even if they are, possibly, debatable (much as a parent might set a debatable curfew for a member of the family).
The matter of the unmarried priesthood is at least as defensible from Biblical principles as a married priesthood, given St. Paul's admonition and Jesus'(see post above from June 3, 6:33 am), Jesus would not say that celibacy may only be received by those to whom it had been given unless he, in fact, meant to say that it would be given to some.
If you must have the option of being a Catholic and having a married clergy, you could simply revert and ask to transfer to one of the Eastern Rites. You would still be a Catholic in every sense of the word and you would have a married clergy (in at least some of the rites). Some of those rites that exist in the Uniter States include (not all allow a married clergy):
Maronite Church
Syriac Catholic Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
Armenian Catholic Church
Chaldean Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Church
Melkite Greek Catholic Church
Romanian Church United with Rome
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
So, you can see that there are so many options that the matter of a married priesthood standing in the way of reverting is very minor. In fact, even some married former Anglican priests are now priests in good standing in the Church.
So. is it alright to agree that this matter is a minor obstacle, since, in fact, there are some married priests in the Catholic Church, but it is decided on a case-by-case basis for prudential reasons. There are valid points on both sides of the issue, but someone has to set the standards and a generally unmarried clergy has seemed best in the eyes of the Church.
If a hypothetical plague were to wipe out all unmarried men, the Church would not lose too much sleep in ordaining married men, for a time, in order to raise up a new generation. If only married men could escape the plague, the Church would adapt. The Church does what it deems most prudent for the sake of the Ministry. I hope you can respect that, even if you cannot agree with a celibate clergy. At least you cannot say that it never works (neither would an all married clergy).
Comments on the list (your comments, then mine):
1. Imagine what might happen if a weak priest were to discuss matters of the confessional with anyone?
I reply: this rarely happens as the penalties are so severe. Many priests have died rather than reveal someone's sins. I suspect married priests would also respect the seal of the confessional, but living so closely to someone, indications might slip, by accident. That can happen to unmarried priests, as well. I would say that this matter is a draw between unmarried and married priests.
3. Imagine the ease with which those raising or who have raised 4 children already stay up long hours? (I stay up several hours after the children are in bed, in order to have time to reflect, read, etc.)
I reply: There are many married people who live heroic lives and spend long hours reading and praying after the family has gone to bed. It is simply easier to do so if there is no one around. Also, it is really hard not to eat popcorn on a day you have set aside to fast if the family unexpectedly goes to a movie. Self-denial is a really good witness, as every Catholic who follows the meatless Fridays will attest, but still, it is a harder life for those who must live with others.
4. Imagine the natural skepticism of receiving counsel from someone who does not have personal experience with the matter? (Well, marriage counseling, specifically - I don't suppose I'd necessarily want my defense counsel to also have faced the same criminal charges hypothetically committed!)
I reply: so, there should be no male gynecologists? Just because one has never been married does not mean that one cannot be a keen observer of the married state. I have a friend who is a military historian who has never been in the military, himself, but teaches tactics at an important military college (I won't say which one, but it is the most important for this sort of thing).
On the other hand, somethings do have to be experienced in order to form an informed opinion: imagine a chef who only ever ate oatmeal!
5. Imagine how much insight into humanity, life's lessons offered up by children playing? Even by their fighting? By their punishment and reward, their growth, which we attempt to direct and in no way truly govern? Imagine writing academic literature with 4 children -- and posit that as not hypothetical!
I reply: in my dim past I taught 7/8 grade math. I have a pretty good idea of how children fight and play and grow. I won't say if I have any of my own, but teachers also develop a kind of instinct with regards to children - college professors, not so much because thy don't have time, they see so many, usually in large classrooms, and by the time they get them, they are already grown.
What I do agree with is that one should not trust any married academics trying to counsel parents who have not raised strong families, themselves. Even with the case of unmarried priests, their lifves must reflect their ministry.
6. Imagine empathizing deeply, as those who are not parents must only themselves imagine the depth felt, the pain and loss something which must be faced down and overcome
I reply: the death of a child is a pain like no other, but Christ did not have to be married to appreciate the pain of Jairus or the widow of Nain. Although unmarried priests do not have Christ's gift of omniscience, they can still understand at least something - this comes from being a part of a common humanity (and having mirror neurons , although other higher primates do, as well).
7. Imagine anyone at all doing anything at all in the face of a loved one's terminal illness. This isn't even an argument one way or the other, much less a practical reason for the prohibition of priestly marriage.
I reply: it depends on the situation. Married and unmarried would both be concerned for the friend, but the unmarried would not also have to be concerned about fixing dinner or other things for the family. On the other hand, the married would be able to derive support from having family.
10. Imagine how much the Protestant community seems in this "modern, sex-crazed world, to see men who have the strength of character to stay committed to an ideal," when that ideal is Christian marriage, which even the most committed Catholic must agree is by far the more common life pattern?
I reply: both vocations are witnesses, but in different ways. A society with nothing but married people could not appreciate purity in the same way unless there were some unmarried people in their midst. If marriage is the total consecration of one's flesh to another person but if marriage does not survive into the next life (as Jesus says), then does not society also need the witness of a group of people who have consecrated their flesh to the Church?
In any case, as I mentioned at the start, this is not such a large issue that it should put an obstacle to returning to the Church.
There are two that I suspect that are more important to you: women priests and Biblical authority. I will take those up in my next series of posts (if I am permitted to keep posting - I have been a bit long-winded)
The Chicken

So, if a bishop secretly goes through the motions of ordaining a woman, he's excommunicated? If he then keeps his excommunication secret, are his acts as bishop after that point invalid?
No. But some sacraments are invalid, such as matrimony, or confession. Others are valid but illicit, such as saying Mass, or Last Rites.

She isn't attempting or pretending to dodge Q2 or Q3. It's simply not her issue. She's focused on Q1.
For what reason does her focus confer importance on issues and unimportance on those she does not focus on?
Especially since your third sentence does not support your first one. You can attempt or pretend to dode an issue precisely by focusing on separate one.

No honest inquiry can be heresy. Heresy is the reaching of a definite conclusion.
"This matter is open to question" is a definite conclusion. The exact nature of the matter will determine whether it is a heretic one.

ahem...Sherlock Holmes
The Chicken

Can't comment long. The idea that:
when that ideal is Christian marriage, which even the most committed Catholic must agree is by far the more common life pattern?
is an argument ad populum - an appeal to numbers. Celibacy is significant because it isn't the most common pattern. It is the least common that often communicates the most information. Sherlock homes once said (if he really said anything :)) :
The more bizarre a thing is the less mysterious it proves to be. It is your commonplace, featureless crimes which are really puzzling, just as a commplace face is the most difficult to identify. (REDH)
It is a mistake to confound strangeness with mystery. The most commonplace crime is often the most mysterious, because it presents no new or special features from which deductions may be drawn. (STUD)
Must run. Will answer, later. Hope the kids get well, soon (and mom gets a break).
The Chicken

I believe the Anglican response to the points in your last post reads something like, "How can it hurt the priest's ability or desire to minister to families, having a family oneself? How can a priest offer counsel to married couples, when the modern model of marriage (back-and-forth, give-and-take, dually purposed, yet driven towards unified goals) contrasts so much to the idea of the "Bride of Christ," and "infallibility"?
For each of your practical anecdotal examples, besides example #2, marriage or not-marriage are not the relevant drivers of behaviors.
1. Imagine what might happen if a weak priest were to discuss matters of the confessional with anyone?
3. Imagine the ease with which those raising or who have raised 4 children already stay up long hours? (I stay up several hours after the children are in bed, in order to have time to reflect, read, etc.)
4. Imagine the natural skepticism of receiving counsel from someone who does not have personal experience with the matter? (Well, marriage counseling, specifically - I don't suppose I'd necessarily want my defense counsel to also have faced the same criminal charges hypothetically committed!)
5. Imagine how much insight into humanity, life's lessons offered up by children playing? Even by their fighting? By their punishment and reward, their growth, which we attempt to direct and in no way truly govern? Imagine writing academic literature with 4 children -- and posit that as no hypothetical!
6. Imagine empathizing deeply, as those who are not parents must only themselves imagine the depth felt, the pain and loss something which must be faced down and overcome
7. Imagine anyone at all doing anything at all in the face of a loved one's terminal illness. This isn't even an argument one way or the other, much less a practical reason for the prohibition of priestly marriage.
10. Imagine how much the Protestant community seems in this "modern, sex-crazed world, to see men who have the strength of character to stay committed to an ideal," when that ideal is Christian marriage, which even the most committed Catholic must agree is by far the more common life pattern?
I am stuck, it seems, on where the boundaries are between the kinds of bible verses that obviously aren't meant to be taken literally -- strike out an eye, sever a hand -- and "better to be a eunuch, if you can deal with it."
Then too, Honorable Herr Doktor Mister Sir Chicken, what's the basis against women being priests? And is there a resource anyone can point me to showing the differences between Anglicans and Catholics? There's a pope, there's a whole body of canon law, there's divorce. Well, no divorce, preferably, unless you're a King willing to sever 1500 years history Gordian-knot style, I suppose.
Sorry if I'm a little punchy, everyone in the house is throwing up and I'm on my 3rd shower and 4th coffee. Thanks for your help! So glad I found ya'll.

A few more comments on the celibate priesthood.
There are many practical reasons why a celibate priesthood is preferred:
1. Imagine what might happen if a weak married priest discussed matters of the confessional with his wife.
2. Imagine what might happen to missionary priests who must make the decision to die for Christ while they have a wife and children waiting for them at home.
3. Imagine the ease with which a celibate priest can stay up long hours or fast for his parishioners.
4. Imagine the objectivity of a priest on counseling married couples. A married priest may bring experience, but if his marriage is not good, will also bring baggage.
5. Imagine trying to write a homily while little children are playing.
6. Imagine trying to concentrate on a sick parishioner when one has a sick child at home.
7. Imagine trying to do anything at all if a loved one is facing a terminal illness.
8. Imagine trying to have a contemplative life (saying the office, etc.) while trying to get the kids ready for school, etc.
9. Imagine trying to love 100 kids at a Catholic elementary school without preference if one's own children are enrolled.
10. Imagine the confusion it causes in the modern, sex-crazed world, to see men who have the strength of character to stay committed to an ideal.
Dear Kineticriticality,
You get the idea. Do you have any questions to this point?
If you want a short overview of the history of priestly celibacy, the best online article I can recommend is from the Catholic Encyclopedia, here .
I will wait for you to digest all of this information.
The Chicken

Smokey Mountain,
The simple order is Dogma, Doctrine, Discipline. The definitions below are from the Pocket Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John Hardon.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
DOGMA.
Doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of divine revelation. All dogmas, therefore, are formally revealed truths and promulgated as such by the Church. They are revealed either in Scripture or tradition, either explicitly (as the Incarnation) or implicitly (as the Assumption). Moreover, their acceptance by the faithful must be proposed as necessary for salvation. They may be taught by the Church in a solemn manner, as with the definition of the Immaculate Conception, or in an ordinary way, as with the constant teaching on the malice of taking innocent human life. (Etym. Latin dogma; from Greek dogma, declaration, decree.)

DOCTRINE.
Any truth taught by the Church as necessary for acceptance by the faithful. The truth may be either formally revealed (as the Real Presence), or a theological conclusion (as the canonization of a saint), or part of the natural law (as the sinfulness of contraception). In any case, what makes it doctrine is that the Church authority teaches that it is to be believed. This teaching may be done either solemnly in ex cathedra pronouncements or ordinarily in the perennial exercise of the Church's magisterium or teaching authority. Dogmas are those doctrines which the Church proposes for belief as formally revealed by God. (Etym. Latin doctrina, teaching.)

DISCIPLINE.
Systematic mental, moral, or physical training under someone in authority. The term also applies to the order maintained by persons under control, whether self-determined or imposed by others. It is likewise a private means of penance, in use among ascetics since the early Church, e.g., a whip or scourge. It is the exercise by the Church of her right to administer spiritual penalty, and it may finally refer to any of the laws and directions set down by Church authority for the guidance of the faithful. (Etym. Latin disciplina, instruction, knowledge.)

So, if a bishop secretly goes through the motions of ordaining a woman, he's excommunicated? If he then keeps his excommunication secret, are his acts as bishop after that point invalid? Yikes! The part about the woman was easier to handle--we should know that a woman can't be a priest. But the idea of bishops that may not be bishops is disconcerting.

SDG,
This sophistry might allow her to pretend to dodge Q3, but not Q2.
She isn't attempting or pretending to dodge Q2 or Q3. It's simply not her issue. She's focused on Q1.
If I feel that God has called me to the Roman Catholic priesthood but the Church of Rome says otherwise (since I am married), that discrepancy is between God and the Church of Rome
That discrepancy would be between "I feel" and the Church of Rome saying otherwise.
You still aren't reading carefully enough, unless your switch to the definite article is deliberate subterfuge
No, I'm simply recognizing her struggle, not your agenda. She's focused on Q1.
Instead they say the teaching is (or may be) wrong, that it has not been infallibly proposed, that it does not belong to the deposit of faith, etc. They do not deny that it is a teaching... No one questions that, as far as I can see.
She questions whether it's wrong, AND if so, how a wrong teaching could truly be a teaching of the Church.

For the record, I was putting my "discipline / doctrine" post together at the same time Chicken was, apparently. It looks like I just regurgitated everything he already said, or ignored it, but I didn't have a chance to read it before I posted a couple of minutes later.
Had I read his post, I wouldn't have bothered posting my pale contribution! :-)

Mr. Chicken,
Please don't spend time on my question -- I was just looking for a simple, off-the-top-of-someone's-head list.
Matt

Dear Smokey,
There most certainly is, at least with regards to doctrines and disciplines. At the higher end is what is known as doctrines which have the status of De Fides (of the Faith), which belongs to infallible doctrines; at the other end is something called Sensus Commune (sorry for the misspelling I don't have my references handy). This refers to a common theological opinion which may be disagreed with. I don't have time tonight, but if you want, I can look up the complete classification scheme. Ludwig Ott has a listing of the pre-Vatican II scheme and Fr. William Most has a listing of the post-Vatican scheme (not that the doctrines have changed, but the new Code and the documents of Vatican II have simplified them).
The Chicken

One more thing about eunuchs - there is a fundamental difference in terminology between men and women with regards to the question of dedication of one's reproductive powers. If a woman choses not to get married and she has not had sex, she is considered a virgin. Men, although they might not have had sex, are not usually referred to in this manner because of the need of a distinction: female virginity involves a distinctive physical trait attached to the sexual organ, which men do not have.
In any case, all people are born virginal. Few are born as eunuch. Both involve not having sex, but while both virgins and eunuchs can be made by nature, virgins cannot be made by man, while eunuchs can, nor can one choose to be a virgin - one may choose to remain a virgin, but that is a slightly different thing - while a man can choose to become a eunuch. A woman cannot choose to become a virgin - she either is or is not. This points to a fundamental difference in what each gender can offer in this area. Women can offer something that already exists; men must make a different kind of choice.
Men need instrumentality to create; women do not. Women have an innate capacity to create; men do not. A celibate male priesthood puts all of the man's capacities at the service of the Church. This is another reason why the Church has asked priests to not marry - so as to focus all of their abilities at one thing.
Christ gave himself totally to his bride, the Church. Men who stay unmarried still have a "mistress," so to speak. The Church is, from God's point of view, female.
The Chicken

Not to produce a tangent, but it's very interesting to me to read Mr. Chicken's comments regarding "discipline" vs. "doctrine". While this isn't exactly new to me, I still internally tend to assign a single category to Catholic "rules", as I think many outsiders do. That probably explains why some people have difficulty in accepting changes in the Church (such as the Novus Ordo) or accepting that certain things won't ever change (such as the male priesthood).
Having said all of that, is there a hierarchy of Catholic "rules"? Clearly, discipline

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