Elections, Part 3: Qualified McCain advocacy

by SDG on October 1, 2008

in Government

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6

SDG here (not Jimmy).

John McCain supports embryonic stem-cell research.

Although his support appears to be somewhat qualified and conflicted, and there are signs that he may be moving away from supporting ESCR, his history of consistent support for an intrinsic evil remains a grave concern in his candidacy.

No, I won’t paper it over with a euphemism. In my last post I argued that "A candidate who advocates legalized abortion, euthanasia, ESCR or human cloning gravely disqualifies himself for public service, not just for what he or she may do but for what he or she stands for." By that standard, McCain gravely disqualifies himself for public service on at least one of those four counts.

That Obama gravely disqualifies himself on all four of those four counts certainly makes McCain the less problematic and thus preferable candidate. In my next post I hope to deal with the ethics of voting for the least problematic viable candidate, which is, I contend, always permissible. For now, I want to focus a bit more on potential consequences of a McCain–Palin administration vs. an Obama–Biden administration.

As I’ve said, I’m deeply skeptical of all four candidates, and uneasy about all possible outcomes. I have no strong feelings regarding which side is better equipped to lead on the economy, health care and other crucial issues.

I do suspect that McCain is better equipped than Obama to lead on foreign policy. That’s not necessarily what they’re calling a game-changer, though, since (a) I could be wrong (I am a political knucklehead) and (b) it is not wildly unlikely that McCain’s health could impair his ability to serve.

McCain’s temperament is a legitimate subject of concern. His penchant for fast and risky decisions can make him look decisive and knowledgeable and bold, as when he responded to the conflict in Chechnya; but it can also lead to mistakes.

Obama is clearly smart. Any questions I had on that front were settled on Friday night. He’s also articulate and charismatic, a combination we haven’t seen in a presidential race since Clinton, and before that since Reagan. (In terms of articulateness and charisma, I mean; I’m not putting Reagan in Clinton’s or Obama’s league intellectually.)

Obama is also inexperienced. I suspect that’s not as big a deal as some might think. It may be embarrassing for a candidate to suggest that Iraq is not a serious threat, or that Chavez came to power during the Bush administration rather than the Clinton administration, or that unconditional presidential-level meetings with rogue dictators is a good idea; but hey, your advisors clue you in and you move on. I’m sure Palin would be making some of these gaffes if she were on the grid as much as Obama. The "It’s all about judgment" line is neither the whole truth nor completely wrong.

Here is something that is a game-changer for me.

Among serious concerns in our society today are power grabs by different elements within government. Several concerns in this regard have been raised in recent years regarding the executive branch, most recently in connection with the bailout effort.

Arguably the most sustained, influential and successful power grabs in recent U.S. history, as far as I can tell, is that of the judiciary.

The judicial system seems to me to concentrate a great deal of power, particularly at the top, in the hands of a small number of people who are unelected and unaccountable, who can hold their positions essentially for life and whose decisions have far more lasting impact than that of many public officials. Subsequent justices are expected, on principle, to respect previous verdicts in a way that other officials are not. There is no stare decisis for presidential executive orders, for instance.

As far as I know, recourse for abuses of power at this level, or for addressing flaws in the system in any way, are dauntingly remote. Practically speaking, about the only readily available course of action I know of is to promote judicial self-restraint over judicial activism by nominating candidates who espouse judicial restraint, i.e., originalism or strict constructionism. This is a very limited and problematic approach, but I don’t see that there is any other immediately available option.

So much is this the case that a president’s Supreme Court nominations may well be his most far-reaching act in office. What did Gerald Ford do in office that had rivaled the long-term impact of nominating John Paul Stevens?

The issue is especially crucial because the judiciary has been instrumental in subverting both the judicial and the democratic process in imposing the fiction of an anti-life "right to choose." Other grave evils highly damaging to society, such as same-sex "marriage," are highly likely to be imposed by judicial fiat given a judiciary with sufficient political will and lack of self-restraint.

In general, left-leaning Democratic presidents reliably nominate candidates for the Supreme Court who are reliably evil–activist. The record of right-leaning Republican presidents and the nominees thereof is, unfortunately, more mixed. We do seem to have gone three for three now, and the one before that was a seemingly unavoidable wild card. There almost seems to be a kind of corrupting influence inside the Beltway that sucks justices to the dark side. We can only do what we can do.

McCain has taken a lot of flak from conservatives for his leading role in the "Gang of 14." This is a complex issue and I’m not sure what I think about it. I’m not sure nuking the filibuster would have been the best outcome. And it does seem that some of Bush’s lower-court nominees can reasonably be accused of conservative activism no less blatant than that of many liberal activist judges.

I oppose judicial activism in principle, not just based on of how it is used. I don’t want activist conservative judges any more than activist liberal ones. I want judges who know their job description, who stick to interpreting the law and leave emanations and penumbras to the psychic readers. Give me nine liberal Supreme Court justices who support abortion rights, same-sex marriage, euthanasia and so on, but who also know how to read the words on the page, and who believe that these rights should be advanced by the legislative and democratic process rather than by judicial fiat, and I’ll be happy.

Certainly McCain says just exactly the right things about what kind of justices he likes and what kind of nominees he would put forward. Better still, I think McCain probably gets the principle of judicial restraint vs. activism better than Bush, who I think was more likely to go on personal trust rather than qualifications (Harriet Myers anyone?).

So I find this comparatively reassuring, though it’s impossible to be entirely reassured. Knowing how much McCain loves to reach across the aisle, etc., who knows what the heck he’ll actually do in office? And that’s prescinding from the potential disparity between how candidates may say they’ll judge and what they actually do on the bench.

On the other hand, I have absolutely no doubts what kind of candidates Obama will put forward, and get, and what kind of verdicts we will get from them.

This is the single most important issue that I think can be most confidently held in advance to represent a clear difference in outcomes based on who wins the election. It is a decisive issue for me, if not the decisive issue. I don’t quite want to reduce it to "It’s The Supreme Court, Stupid," but that wouldn’t be wholly wrong either. At any rate, along with the substantial differences between the candidates on the life issues, it is a decisive reason for rejecting Obama and for regarding McCain as preferable candidate.

But what about the claim that we can’t or shouldn’t support a candidate who supports any intrinsic evil, even if the other candidate is worse on every fundamental issue? That will be the subject of my next post.

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Chuck Baldwin is the 2008 presidential candidate of the Constitution Party. The platform of the Constitution Party contains the following statement:
"We favor the right of states and localities to execute criminals convicted of capital crimes and to require restitution for the victims of criminals"

Ahhhh....SDG....on point (a), don't despair yet. Just a short month ago, it looked like McCain was on his way to victory. There's still ample time for a shift. It would help if McCain brought his "A" game to the debates, and went after Obama more strongly for his many radical left associations.
However, the actual voting usually comes out 2-3 points more for the GOP than what polls say. I'm not giving up....you can really help too...and so can the Bishops if they'll clarify voting principles for Catholics.
We have, admittedly, an uphill climb, though....I'll be fasting as best I can, and offering my arthritis pains up all the way from now until Election Day. I do think it's mostly spiritual warfare, like everything else....

Thanks, Tim J. Alas, (a) I fear it's a moot point, and (b) other priorities continue to thwart me. It won't be till next week.

SDG, your next post in this series can't come soon enough.
No pressure, though.

TMC: It might have been better to let Rotten Orange's comment remain general, hoping that the offending parties would take it to heart, or ask him to be more specific.

RO: TMC understood what SDG didn't.

For my part, I didn't, and don't, see the point in not naming names, including my own. As moderator, I had already unofficially engaged CT/CW on the subject of his lengthy and off-topic posting. RO's post directly addressed this same issue -- and RO has already been pointed in his criticism of my uneven attempts at moderation. (In fact, "Rotten Orange"'s new handle was coined within the context of a critique of my moderation, as an expression of Matheus's assessment of my opinion of him.)
Add TMC's self-accusation to the mix, and there was sufficient reason for me to wade into the mix and try to tie up the loose ends.
Oh gentlemen. Who else is weary? Of any whom I have wronged I humbly ask forgiveness, and if any have wronged me I forgive them right readily. For each of you as well as for myself I ask: Christ with and in me, before, behind, beneath and above me, on my right and my left, in every heart that thinks of me and every mouth that speaks of me, in every eye that sees me and every ear that hears me.
Let us put all else aside and love one another.

Everyone is welcome here, but CW's lengthy post above doesn't hold the character of real good faith participation in an argument

...CW or anybody else is welcome here...

Most of CW's work here strikes me as well dressed trollery.

And Tim J. understood everything.
Thanks again.

It might have been better to let Rotten Orange's comment remain general, hoping that the offending parties would take it to heart, or ask him to be more specific.

TMC understood what SDG didn't.

"I am not the cause of his leaving, but I should have not added to his feeling of not being welcome."
Chicken - respectfully, CW has engaged in this kind of breast-beating "injured party" role perhaps once too often. Everyone is welcome here, but CW's lengthy post above doesn't hold the character of real good faith participation in an argument, but rather feels much more like he/she is throwing handfuls of, well anything, in hopes some of it will stick. Nor is this anything new.
Yes, we should be welcoming, but we have already had blog regulars voicing dissatisfaction with CW's continued domination of combox discussions, which has been going on for some weeks.
To be clear, CW or anybody else is welcome here, but what I called "reflexive contrarianism" or what Micheal Palin called "automatic gainsaying" is not. Most of CW's work here strikes me as well dressed trollery.

Dear SDG
Wow! Just wow.
Dear TMC
Chill, man.

I think I did a bad thing...I wrote my apology for long posting, partially because I am guilty, but also, strongly suspecting that the criticism was not addressed specifically at me, I realized that in order to tell me this, the actual guilt party would probably have to be outed. This is what happened.
That was uncharitable and even, possibly, Machiavellian on my part. It might have been better to let Rotten Orange's comment remain general, hoping that the offending parties would take it to heart, or ask him to be more specific. I should have kept my mouth closed. I am sorry, since CW/CT seems to have left the building (see his comments on the sacrilege post). I am not the cause of his leaving, but I should have not added to his feeling of not being welcome. I, as SDG, hoped that the desert/forest issues could have gotten worked out. I fear that his leaving will cause him to build a concrete bunker in the desert, now.
You know how we all admire the saints who can love even those who annoy them? How are we doing with that, today?
The Masked Chicken

Dear SDG,
Instead of trying to run after people in the desert, may I suggest a helicopter and a bullhorn :)
The Chicken
[Ha! 3 1/2 lines :)]

FWIW, Rotten Orange is ostensibly talking to CT/CW, but really, I think, he is talking to me.
I admit my laxity in enforcing the succinctness rule. It does seem reasonable to me at a time when blog activity is way down to give people more leeway in that department, and in any case anyone who abuses the verbosity rules as much as I do is in no position to talk.
I have asked CT/CW to try to bear in the value of keeping discussion focused, ideally generally around the subject of the post. The present line of thought regarding the value of worship does seem to be contrary to that general norm.
For the moment, I am not inclined to go beyond Tim J's succinct response ("Wow. Just wow"). CT/CW is not just barking up the wrong tree, he's running frantically into deserts where trees have never grown, making sounds that make you wonder if he's ever even heard barking.
I would generally be inclined, with a newbie, to run out into the desert gesticulating in the general direction of the nearest trees… and, even now, reading over his comments, various thoughts and potential responses flicker across my mind -- theological and liturgical commentary on the song in question, exposition on the meaning of worship and the relationship to all of life, reflection on the beatific vision.
I'm sure it would make edifying reading. It is bracing to engage first principles. And part of me thinks that part of CT/CW is looking for a reason not to continue on further and further into the desert.
But I can't keep up. I've got too many other demands I've been neglecting for too long. I'd like to try to spend some more of what little time I can on this blog where I belong in the forest, rather than pointing to it from the desert. Perhaps instead of pointing to it, we can try to show what it's actually like.

Chicken, I don't think Rotten Orange was referring to you.
I could be wrong, of course, but...

You're right, Tim J. Thanks.
Dear TMC
Have you read the two or three "big" comments just above mine? You gotta be kidding if you think I was mentioning the rules because of you.

Chicken, I don't think Rotten Orange was referring to you.
I could be wrong, of course, but...

I don't know what to say, except that I am sorry for my breaking of Da Rulz.
I am confused, however, because, according to rule 2, people are to say their piece and move on. If that is the case, how can there, by definition, be a conversation about anything? This would lead to a series of disparate postings.
I ask this as a serious question, because I have not observed this rule being enforced, except, rarely. I appreciate the give-and-take in the comboxes. Sometimes, some of the conversations need to be policed and sometimes they do get uncharitable, but they, for the most part, cause me to think.
Not to be overly long (yikes!), but sometimes it is hard to be concise. A statement/counter-statement was made a few months ago about musical instruments in Church. I wrote a long reply because I wanted to be clear and because I am a scholar in this area. How often do we get knowledgeable people writing about a topic (that didn't come out right - you know what I mean)? Sometimes, in matters of law, when he drops in, Mike Petrik has to write a long post, simply to clarify the issues (not that his posts are usually long, nor are Ed Peters).
I suppose the matter comes down to one of how germane the post is and how important it is to write a long post. Most of the time, its not that necessary. I am guiltier than most. I write longer posts than the average. My class notes are often longer than the chapters in the book (much to my student's dismay). I know I have this problem. I should enroll in speakers anonymous. I do try to edit before I post. If I try to be too short, I can sometimes wind up sounding mean.
Still, its just so nice to be able to talk to people about these subjects in the comboxes. It is very hard being in a secular environment all day.
In my defense, I do post short bursts, as well, so not all of my posts are long.
I have thought about starting a blog, but that might just be feeding a bad habit.
Anyway, I will try harder. Some people are born terse; some are born long-winded. Guess which genes I have? Oh, I'm part Irish. Does that allow me ten more lines than most people :)
The Chicken

ZZZ...
1. ...I don't mind disagreement. I do mind rudeness...Commenters whose interaction on the blog consists principally of discussions of the same subject over and over...are being rude. Conversation involves an ability to talk about more than one thing, not an obsessive harping on one subject. Say your piece and move on, per Rule 2.
2. ...I ask that folks say their piece and then let the subject go (for now, knowing that it will likely surface again in the future). This rule also may be invoked on discussions that, in the opinion of the blogmaster, are getting overly repetitious or unproductively long.
3. Also because of the format restrictions, everyone must be concise. Don't go on at length about things.
4. Comments violating the first three rules will be deleted.
5. Readers who repeatedly violate the first three rules will be banned.

(SOURCE)
ZZZ...

CW wrote:
But this response still raises the same questions I asked...
Perhaps you can restate those questions, clearly and succinctly? I thought you'd been answered quite adequately. I said that worship of God is appropriate to human nature. You asked why then people frequently found worship tedious. I answered that people don't always desire what's good and right for them. Your song quotations seemed completely irrelevant to the questions being discussed. What did I miss?

typo
"of the object act of worship"
should read
"of the objective act of worship"

Charel,
Just admit that you only choose to worship yourself and be done with it. Be secure in the knowledge that God will not force you to worship or love Him and you can spend eternity with yourself completely separated from God.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

SDG, SB
The question of what one would do upon meeting one's deity is actually brought up in a Christian song. So though you can rest assured that no offense was taken at your characterization of my thought as perverse, I do take a mischievous pleasure in your unwitting like characterization if it is to be a consistent principle of application, of a popular Christian song, that posits the same question of what would transpire upon meeting one's deity in terms of how one would react -- whether in proceeding to "dance with you Jesus" or "to my knees will I fall" or be non-responsive etc. Perhaps the word "proceeded" to threw you off. I'm not sure what you mean there by "non sequitur"; perhaps you mean that anyone who went to meet his deity would naturally and inevitably worship him -- true, but that fact is irrelevant. If you prefer, just replace amend my remarks to "and proceeded to as would be natural and inevitable for someone who was meeting what was in his mind his deity, worship Him."
Here are the lyrics to the popular Christian song I alluded to. I suppose many Catholics may be unaware of it, but it is -- unless this too has been barred by the Vatican -- used in some Catholic circles at both masses and at other Catholic events of a less official nature such as I suppose a Youtube video:
Catholic video of the song
(I sincerely recommend this video to you all; I believe in no god but I find the music and the literary beauty despite what people say about CCM, to be beautiful and evocative of the beauty we need not seek in any far away god, but in the ever present universe before us today)
"I can only imagine what it will be like, when I walk by Your side...
I can only imagine, what my eyes will see, when Your Face is before me!
I can only imagine. I can only imagine.
Surrounded by Your Glory, what will my heart feel?
so there appears to be doubt as to what her heart will feel, her inner disposition, versus the certainty some here might have
Will I dance for you, Jesus? Or in awe of You, be still?
Will I stand in Your presence, or to my knees will I fall?
Will I sing 'Hallelujah!'? Will I be able to speak at all?
I can only imagine! I can only imagine!
likewise there seems to be the related doubt as to what external action if any would be undertaken, and that the christian here has no idea on these questions and is only able to hazard a guess within the limits of her imagination
I can only imagine, when that day comes, when I find myself standing in the Son!
I can only imagine, when all I will do, is forever, forever worship You!
I can only imagine! I can only imagine!
but there is nevertheless the certainty apparently that worship will continue forever ... though I wonder how any of the above constitutes worship since one can dance for another individual without worshipping her and one can do likewise with kneeling such as before a queen or hoped fiancee ... and being awe I have no quarrel with but I am in awe at the marvel which is the universe; I am in awe at the ingenuity of man; I am in awe at the beauty of a tree... likewise the phrase "hallelujah" means "praise to Yah" (strange that this is permitted in Mass when it is veiled in Hebrew, but the same word Yahweh is now forbidden)... but praise is not constitutive of worship, else you would be comitted to worshipping created beings based on the Catholic liturgy and even the bible ... and we engage in praise all the time, such as for instance, praising the choice that a political candidate exercised to keep her child or praising the valor of a soldier or praising someone as a "great" person.
If engaging in constant non-stop worship is so deliciously exciting, one wonders why christians or Catholics clearly do find it tiresome to do (allowing for their physical needs of eating, exercise, and work to satisfy those needs, etc.). Why is it for example that on Super Bowl Sunday, that mass attendance and for that matter christian church attendance in general, drops? Why is it that even those commended to catholic Christians as "saints" by the magisterium, themselves admit that much of the time they just didn't want to pray or worship? That they found no delight in it, no consolation in it, etc. Here is the classic Catholic response:
Humans have distinct desires or appetites. Humans have a desire for God in terms of what they apprehend of him in a mediate way in such things as their understanding of justice. Humans also have a desire for other things which are truly and intrinsically good things like pleasure, the objective beauty of one's own body, companionship with social peers (i.e. humans as opposed to God) and so forth. But these are goods finite such that when they are in conflict with the good that is God, mediated through our apprehension of those goods which correspond imperfectly with God, we are morally obliged to choose the good that is God. But since the good that is God is not itself apprehended in but a mediate way, we are at times more attracted to a lesser good and feel it more desirable, even if in some theoretical way we might concede it less desirable. In heaven, due to the beatific vision, the good that is God is apprehended in an immediate way, making us rapturously desire that good without temptation to other goods, thus making worship there always non-dreary.
But this response still raises the same questions I asked since the motive of passion seems to be a sense of obligation, grounded theoretically by a cognizance in the intellect of the truth of that obligation. There is no cognizance in the intellect nor any corresponding motive of passion corresponding to an actual delight in the inherent features of the object act of worship. Delight is undoubtedly felt by various people at various times, but that is not a delight as I just outlined, but an incidental delight, that psychologically arises out of the act, a delight which traditionally, is cautioned against as a reliable indicator of spiritual health, let alone commended as to be a motive for worship.

"What would you do if you died, went to meet your deity and you proceeded to worship him and he responded by saying, "There's no need to do that. We are all friends here"? Would you be (1) disappointed or (2) glad or (3) puzzled or (4) think that he wasn't the true deity or (5) have some other reaction?
I don't think anyone would be disappointed. That tells me that worship is something done out of coercion or sense of obligation as opposed to something one finds inherently desirable to do that one is just aching to do. If such things were not so, it'd make no sense for them to be prescribed as a penance."
CW, you are just quite wrong, here, I'm afraid. 180 degrees wrong.
Try and look at it this way; At the end of the day (or the year or whatever measure of time you prefer), I have always had the unshakable sense that life is lopsidedly benevolent. My deepest response, then, is and has been one of profound gratitude.
I've had the same kind of struggles that most people have (so don't try and tell me I've lived a pampered existence and don't understand "real life"), but all in all I'm simply grateful to be here, to be part of things.
The only thing better than living in a universe that held all these things I was grateful for was the confirmation that there was someone I could be grateful TO. This was not the slightest bit a mental stretch. Far from being a puzzle and a problem, the idea of the Creator God seemed like a matter of course. I've always found the idea of a Creator God to be so obvious that it hardly needed arguing. On the other hand, picturing a godless universe requires great imaginative effort for me, and can't be sustained for very long.
I have always been an artist. I have always understood that the world is a work of art, that it means something, and if it means something, then there must be someone to mean it.
(I know I'm paraphrasing Chesterton here and there)
The worship of God - due praise to the artist - is not only something I don't find AT ALL to be a dreary duty, but is something that can hardly be helped. It wants to leap out on its own, like a laugh or the "Oooohs and Aaahhhs" you hear at a fireworks show. They won't be able to shut me up in heaven.
----------
Suffice to say that if I meet "my deity" in heaven, he wouldn't say anything like what you imagine or he wouldn't be my deity, so it seems a rather pointless exercise. Indeed, it's hard to believe you would try to build any kind of argument on such gelatinous ground.
Given that the Creator God does exist, he should be worshiped because any other response would be disordered. In children they call it "oppositional/defiant disorder".
Such a child doesn't say to their parents and teachers "You are not worthy of your authority", or "You misuse your authority, so I reject it"... he says in his mind simply "I will have no authority over me".
The psychologists rightly diagnose this as a disorder in the child and work to address its root causes, rather than trying to convince the child with logic and evidence that his parents are really pretty decent and reasonable or that his teachers are duly licensed by the state and are qualified to instruct him.
The child's problem is not a lack of evidence or a genuine concern for the proper use of authority, it is a rejection of the idea of authority as such.

What would you do if you died, went to meet your deity and you proceeded to worship him and he responded by saying, "There's no need to do that. We are all friends here"? Would you be (1) disappointed or (2) glad or (3) puzzled or (4) think that he wasn't the true deity or (5) have some other reaction?

I find this the most perverse line of thought I have encountered in quite some time. (No offense, I hope.)
When I try to think about where you go wrong, I think it is the words "proceeded to worship him." They are something of a non sequitur coming after the words "went to meet your deity." I cannot accept such a meeting as you propose except in the context of a Monty Python sketch or a nightmare from hell. Your list of possible reactions doesn't seem to include that.

Thank you Doug Johnson, for showing that Kmiec is full of hot air when he waffles about FOCA:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OGM5YzIzYTExN...

CW wrote:
What would you do if you died, went to meet your deity and you proceeded to worship him and he responded by saying, "There's no need to do that. We are all friends here"? Would you be (1) disappointed or (2) glad or (3) puzzled or (4) think that he wasn't the true deity or (5) have some other reaction?
I suppose I would first be puzzled.
I don't think anyone would be disappointed. That tells me that worship is something done out of coercion or sense of obligation as opposed to something one finds inherently desirable to do that one is just aching to do.
That may be true for you; it is quite preposterous for you to assert it to be true for others, especially in the face of so much personal testimony to the contrary. Read the psalms if you're having trouble finding such testimony. If they (and the thousands of devotional hymns and poems and musical compositions written AMDG) aren't sufficient, you have my personal testimony that I ache to worship my creator and redeemer.
If such things were not so, it'd make no sense for them to be prescribed as a penance.
What makes you think penance must always be unpleasant? And even if it is, why do you assume that makes it unnatural and unfitting for a human being? Exercise and good diet can be unpleasant, but are not for that reason unnatural or unhealthy, and I don't think you'd dispute that there is something inherent in human beings that makes exercise and good diet right and appropriate.
It is true that many Catholics pray the Rosary while driving. Since you won't take my word for it, you'll have to wait for any Catholic here to confirm it ...
I didn't say you were wrong, just that I wasn't aware that I knew any Catholics who did so. I don't object to the practice as strongly as you do, but it still seems like a bad idea to me. Not only would it make for half-baked driving, but it seems that it would make for half-baked prayer as well.
You'll also have to take my word that Catholic philosophy maintains that beauty, including in physical form, is objective in character ...
I didn't dispute this. If I ask for clarification from you, it will be because I wonder what you think on a subject. If I want an authoritative Catholic answer, I will go to a Catholic authority.
... which is why the arguments Catholics oft make, "God is not only loving, but just" that some made here previously, are really inadequate from the standpoint of Catholic theology and philosophy as any attribute properly attributed to God is considered only notionally different from another, not corresponding to any real difference ... this of course is glaringly obvious from the doctrine of divine simplicity ... which when mentioned most Catholics interpret to be an insult against God
I think you waste a lot of time splitting hairs and misinterpreting people. The fact that justice and mercy are both aspects of God's love can be expressed perfectly well by stating that God is both merciful and just.
... such is the state of Catholic catechesis and education today. Coming from a Catholic or bishop, such criticism is received well and praised by some conservative Catholics or neo-traditional Catholics ... but when it is observed by an ex-Catholic, it is met with a different reaction. It reminds of some species of jellyfish ... but I'll refrain from specifying the analogy I have in mind.
Why bring it up then?

SB,
What would you do if you died, went to meet your deity and you proceeded to worship him and he responded by saying, "There's no need to do that. We are all friends here"? Would you be (1) disappointed or (2) glad or (3) puzzled or (4) think that he wasn't the true deity or (5) have some other reaction?
I don't think anyone would be disappointed. That tells me that worship is something done out of coercion or sense of obligation as opposed to something one finds inherently desirable to do that one is just aching to do. If such things were not so, it'd make no sense for them to be prescribed as a penance.
It is true that many Catholics pray the Rosary while driving. Since you won't take my word for it, you'll have to wait for any Catholic here to confirm it ...
In the document, the Vatican also recommends praying vocally, and taking turns if there are any passengers, as when reciting the Rosary, which because of its repetition and rhythm, does not distract the driver. “It is very pleasant to recite the Rosary, especially when there is a lot of traffic,” said Deacon Arias.
http://www.icatholic.org/indstory/2008/200835p16.h...
It is a very traditional practice -- but in my opinion totally inadvisable and perhaps making you legally liable in the event of an accident -- that persons who are typical of the Catholic apologetics crowd (younger cradle Catholics or without respect to age converts to Catholicism) or perhaps not as familiar with.
You'll also have to take my word that Catholic philosophy maintains that beauty, including in physical form, is objective in character ... or you can write Fr. Thomas Dubay as he has affirmed this on a CAL program I once listened to. ... btw, in Catholic philosophy God is beauty itself just as God is truth itself. Beauty is (either reductively or in its own right depending on the individual Catholic philosopher-theologian) a "transcendental" alone with truth, unity, thing-ness, goodness, etc such that everything that is, insofar as it is is beautiful, true, one, thing-y, good, etc. It's a little clearer in the Latin as some of the terms don't translate well and I'm giving a loose. In classic Catholic philosophy, these transcendentals also, including in God, correspond not to real variance but only notional variance ... which is why the arguments Catholics oft make, "God is not only loving, but just" that some made here previously, are really inadequate from the standpoint of Catholic theology and philosophy as any attribute properly attributed to God is considered only notionally different from another, not corresponding to any real difference ... this of course is glaringly obvious from the doctrine of divine simplicity ... which when mentioned most Catholics interpret to be an insult against God ... such is the state of Catholic catechesis and education today. Coming from a Catholic or bishop, such criticism is received well and praised by some conservative Catholics or neo-traditional Catholics ... but when it is observed by an ex-Catholic, it is met with a different reaction. It reminds of some species of jellyfish ... but I'll refrain from specifying the analogy I have in mind.

In Catholic philosophy, there is something inherent in beauty that makes the attraction fitting
In Catholic philosophy, God is the author of beauty, and beauty reflects the infinite perfection of God.
he has a new movie given a thumbs up by 2/3 of critics that seems to demonstrate his ability to be fair and "inspire conversation" as opposed to being preachy propaganda. It is a documentary.
I saw it. It is a preachy propaganda movie which exhorts his view that religion is for stupid people. The movie has its points and no shortage of failures in making them.

CW wrote:
In Catholic philosophy, there is something inherent in beauty that makes the attraction fitting just as in science there is something inherent in mass (or more precisely that which underlies mass, assuming a realist take on science) that makes the gravitational pull lawful. There is however, IMHO, nothing inherent in a god, visible (like the statue that Moses desecreated) or invisible (like the judaic or christian deity) that makes it fitting, lawful, or otherwise in consonance for it to be worshipped (or from the value judgment of a particular faith against another, idolized)
There is something inherent in mass that attracts other massive bodies. Likewise, there is something inherent in man that makes worship of our creator, sustainer, and redeemer right and appropriate.

I do not know much about Bill Mauher, except as a late-night host, so I will be tentative in my comments, but he seems rather against religion, on principle. This is my impression, based on watching him on tv in years past (I no longer watch broadcast tv).
Chicken, he has a new movie given a thumbs up by 2/3 of critics that seems to demonstrate his ability to be fair and "inspire conversation" as opposed to being preachy propaganda. It is a documentary. Apparently he filmed part of it in the Vatican. It's gotten thumbs up from some Christian reviewers too. Whether in theaters or in video, I heartily recommend it to you. It is rated R for "language and sexual material", however.

no. In Catholic philosophy, there is something inherent in beauty that makes the attraction fitting just as in science there is something inherent in mass (or more precisely that which underlies mass, assuming a realist take on science) that makes the gravitational pull lawful. There is however, IMHO, nothing inherent in a god, visible (like the statue that Moses desecreated) or invisible (like the judaic or christian deity) that makes it fitting, lawful, or otherwise in consonance for it to be worshipped (or from the value judgment of a particular faith against another, idolized)

beauty is to attraction, as mass is to gravitational pull
Is that like, as idol is to idolatry?

So... is beauty inherent in an object or in the relationship between an object and an observer? Or is there even a real difference?
As I stated, the beauty is inherent in the object, but the fittingness of the attraction to that beauty is inherent in the relationship between the object and the subject, inherent due to things inherent in both the object and subject, and the objective relationship that thus arises between the two.
The objective character of beauty is considered important in Catholic philosophy. Attraction and beauty are not the same thing. The beauty is that quality which is apprehended in the intellect to which our heart is attracted to and delights in. So, off the top of my head, beauty is to attraction, as mass is to gravitational pull

CT wrote:
You make some good points and also use some internet slang that I am unfamiliar with which I assume is just frivolity I can safely ignore.
Sorry about that. I used an emoticon more in use in Japan than in the States. o_O is a picture of me with my eyes bulging out and my mind boggling. It was the only response I could think of to some of the things you wrote. In particular, I don't quite understand why you are so quick to take offense, and at the same time so quick to insist that others give your statements the most charitable possible interpretation.
I appreciate your expressed agreement with me on some points which is a good sign that the constraints of parochiality, defensiveness, blinding passion, and partisanship are not insurmountable ones.
Not at all. This is a simple matter of two human beings sharing some views and not others. For the record, I find your characterization of my views and mindset extremely obnoxious.
When I said that I expect she would pause "momentarily" in the case of nuclear crisis, I was speaking not of a "few minutes" necessarily, but had in mind something more along the lines of 10 seconds to a minute.
I think you may be the only person in the country who sees this as a genuine concern. I can understand many objections to Sarah Palin: her lack of experience, her beliefs about Israel and the end times, and even her stance on abortion for those who don't regard a fetus as a person. But afraid that she'll pause to pray rather than to respond to an emergency? If that's something that really, truly concerns you, then I feel safe in saying that you really, truly don't understand religious people.
As for driving, maybe you are not acquainted with those Catholics who pray the Rosary while driving.
Not so far as I know. Seems like a bad division of attention to me.
So assuming it was not your intent to argue against a strawmen, as indeed I do assume, it seems we talked past each other on this minor point.
Not so. My point was that just because someone is inclined to pray in times of crisis doesn't mean that they're incapable of responding to urgent situations. Sane Christians take time to pray, but they don't do it when it's clearly time to do something else.
This is because I view morality as founded in this case partially in the object chosen or the object which constitutes the act prescinding from the person performing it, but also partially in the person performing the act.
I'm sorry; I'm having a very hard time understanding this. Are you saying that you think the morality of a person's vote depends as much on the voter's reasons as the candidate's platform?
This view, broadly speaking, is actually the view, with appropriate terminological translation, of Catholic theory on natural law which postulates that what is right and wrong is constituted by the subjective nature of man, not always in relevant ways universal (ex. sex) -- by how man, a subject, the moral agent in question, is constituted in himself. In the Catholic theory, any moral subject has certain facts which are true of it to which facts can be applied certain eternal moral principles which are grounded ultimately in the simplicity which is God -- God is not merely the source of moral law; God literally is the ultimate ontological reality which constitutes moral life at its maximum or perfection. So the values of morality fall from the sky if you will even though they will of course interact with the "facts on the ground", the nature of moral subjects, in forming the principles of natural law. In my view, in contrast, the values of morality are not fixed in some heavenly constellation, but are themselves grounded in the nature of a moral subject, the deepest desires of a person.
I am not quite sure how to respond to this, because I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the deepest desires of a person." If the deepest desires of a person are the alpha and omega of morality, you run into the problem of determining what, exactly, those deepest desires really are. Does a person get to determine those desires for himself? Were Ted Bundy's murders beautiful because he desired them?
Because, the deepest desires of a person are beautiful ... a point btw that Fr. Benedict Groeschel made when I used to listen to him ...
No doubt Fr. Groeschel would disagree with you about what many people's actual deep desires are. I suspect that he would tell you, for instance, that the deep desire for love is beautiful, even when the personal desire for sex is often ugly.
the true expression of those will likewise be in extension, beautiful.
So who determines the true expression of those desires?
So I see morality as being subsumed under aesthetics ... and with the historic Catholic position in philosophy and contrary to the present academic orthodoxy, I reject the notion that beauty, be it physical or spiritual, is something non-inherent in the object to which beauty is ascribed. The attraction to the object is non-inherent but the fittingness of the attraction is inherent in the objective relationship between the object found beautiful and the subject which finds it so.
So... is beauty inherent in an object or in the relationship between an object and an observer? Or is there even a real difference?
I don't think you addressed my point on Palin's end time views and the Catholic criticism of Huckabee for similar end time views.
I thought I more or less had, when I said that I was (and am) troubled by her views on Israel. The thought of a president who thinks of war on behalf of Israel as something of a holy calling is highly disturbing. Her views on the rapture don't bother me as much; I don't think they're good theology, but I also don't see them leading to any bad decisions in office.
Your hero Buchanan attributed Left Behind end time views to Palin. I quoted him above with a link to the transcript. Buchanan is a Catholic. ....
He's a Catholic, but not my hero. I agree with him on some points (usually about war and foreign policy) and disagree with him on others (such as immigration and American culture.) I haven't read everything he's written, but I've read enough to regard him as intelligent and honest.
I appreciate your clarification of your statement on the fluidity of moral certainty; I don't see it as a particularly interesting, controversial, or even relevant point; perhaps I missed something.

It's irrational to say Obama doesn't think, and won't act to make sure, that FOCA will strike down all pro-life laws and mandate state, federal, and international abortion funding. First, he has specifically favored each of these particular goals individually, opposing all those pro-life laws. Second, he has pledged his allegience to Planned Parenthood, who supports these things. Third, PP and the rest of the bill's sponsrs openly support the idea that FOCA will do these things, and they already removed the exception that would have allowed pro-life laws to remain, and all the pro-life legal analyses think the same--everyone but the people who are telling Catholics that Obama is really pro-life. Fourth, he has pledged to appoint, and Democrats have only ever appointed, judges like Justice Ginsburg who believe that the CConstitution without FOCA mandates all these things--and it is his justices who will be interpreting FOCA. Fifth, Obama's support for FOCA is enthusiastic and totally, absolutely unqualified--it is patently insane to say "well really he will make sure that FOCA is pro-life before he signs it." It is hard to consider that proposition as being anything but intentionally aimed at confusion and deception. It is essentially interpreting Obama's enthusiasm for FOCA as really opposition to FOCA. If your powers of reasoning can accomplish such a task, I can just as validly claim that John McCain will end embryonic stem cell research and war and poverty and the heat death of the sun, and we are outside the realm of rational argumentation.

Obama, as has been acknowledged by McCain partisans in this discussion, does not interpet FOCA in the way that Mary Kay or others do. I think it is safe to assume that should he become POTUS and his own confidence in his own opinion as constitutional scholar on FOCA is not sufficient, then he would before signing rely on the opinion of others and then act accordingly by either negotiating a change in the language to make it more clear that the abortion restrictions of the kind he favors and has worked for are not disallowed by FOCA or by, in the tradition of his predecessor, signing the bill only with a "signing statement."

Dan Hunter, your post would make sense in primary season, but we're one month from the election. Perhaps you've forgotten that the presidential election is not a popular vote but by the electoral college which at this point means McCain or Obama.
Obama said that the first thing he would do if elected was to sign the Freedom of Choice Act, which would make abortion untouchable. It would shut down any activity that does not support abortion. Not to mention the Supreme Court judge positions that will be appointed by the next president.
That makes it essential that he not be elected. Baldwin does not - for this election - have electoral delegates. But he can take away support from McCain, which as Jordanes described, will essentially be a vote for Obama.
As SDG said, voting for McCain is not an objective mortal sin. When the other candidate has a totally morally objectionable voting history, it's not a sin to for a candidate that you wouldn't normally vote for.
If Obama is elected because prolifers withold their votes from McCain, IMO those prolifers will be responsible for whatever Obama pushes through.
The Anchoress has suggested prayer and fasting between now and Election Day and I heartily agree with her.

Tim, I do not deny the possibility that there is a person who knows what is beautiful for me or beautiful objectively as it relates to me better than I do. My claim was regarding not knowledge of beauty, but regarding what grounds morality.
I do not seek to undermine Catholicism anymore than Catholics seek to undermine non-Catholic world views. Catholics or those involved in apologetics seek to "undermine" Protestantism insofar as it differs with Catholicism, atheism likewise insofar as it differs with Catholicism, and so forth. Using the word "undermine" is introducing a negative connotative spin to it. I think part of the problem some have is that they understand "Catholic apologetics" to be about Catholic-Protestant or intra-Christian debates. Some in the pop culture of Catholic apologetics have actually expressed that view, but I think that is an erroneous one. In any event, when appropriate I have assumed the truth of Catholicism in some discussions, even though that was not always recognized by certain persons who are in your words "reflexively contrarian." For example in the permapost on the abortion "holocaust." There, if you note, someone did not realize I had assumed in a particular post that abortion was wrong and I pointed out that error. That same person, later, not in that thread but in another, acknowledged that error. This double standard on the evaluation of Catholicism versus atheism is what I was getting at as what I termed the "bigotry" against atheism. I think some didn't understand what I meant due to the denotative and connotative associations that word has in modern politicized discourse.
At the risk of being accused of "thread jacking" something I frankly don't think I do any more than some Catholics ... whose names I will leave unmentioned, only noting that they themselves -- a few of them -- have acknowledged their own thread jacking behavior .... I would like to clarify some things since someone above has attributed things to me that I do not believe.
First on "atheism." I do not believe there is a being to whom worship is owed on an objective basis by any other moral subject. Nor do I believe there is a person or any collection of persons in whom is constituted a state of maximal possession of perfection such that there is no thing of inherent desirability that is absent in that constitution (the reason is that I deny the compossibility of such perfections). However I do believe there are persons whose perfection is incommensurate relative to other perfections, such that no degree of the latter kind of perfection is equal to or greater than the perfection in fact possessed. I likewise believe there are persons whose perfection is of indefinite extension as to degree. It may be morally permissible to worship such persons, but I do not find it morally obligatory in an objective way.
Second, someone above, claimed I was "materialist." I am not. I believe that every concrete object is in part constituted in some "tangible" form, but I do not deny that they may in some cases or even in all cases be constituted in some intangible form. So for instance "thoughts" are in part constituted in bioneural activity even though they may be in part constituted in other ways -- but these other ways of constitution are never independent of the tangible constitution. This is why as I've expressed before, Mormon theology in this respect is more attractive to me than classical theism.

Eileen, I'm not in a position to do much about it, but I see your point.
CT has his/her own blog and can spin off great reels of ascii just as freely there.
As I have noted, CT's posts seem reflexively contrarian, at least regarding all things Catholic. They have only one common theme, and that is to undermine the faith of Catholics, seemingly by any means at hand.
God exists, CT. He has revealed His will, and He knows what is beautiful and what is ugly in your life (and mine) infinitely better than you do.
The universe is his project... his art. We can join him in that work, or not. We can work in harmony with the theme, or work against it. But the work will be completed, and the flashing and the sprues will be cut away (that's a bit of sculptor talk - metal casting lingo). I can't wait to see how it all comes out.

CT:
Jordanes, what made your comment trolling in my view was that it was designed to get an emotional rise out of someone. That is how I personally define "trolling" ... but however it is labelled, I do not feel it is a wise thing to do, even as a means to a good end. None of my comments here have been designed to do that, at least none that I recollect.
Well, I can't judge your heart and see if you're "trolling" but you're definitely threadjacking. That seems to be your main problem here. Tim or Jimmy or SDG propose a subject for discussion, and you propose your own, which is only tangentially related to the thread topic. I suppose it's enjoyable and interesting for you, but it's nauseous for those of us who would have liked to discuss the actual post at hand, and have to wade through threads where 90% of the posts are devoted to you and your critics sparring.
Admittedly, the problem could be solved by the other posters ignoring your attempts to threadjack, but shame on you for starting the process.
To the Powers That be: Tim, SDG, Jimmy
I really think something needs to be done to head off this constant threadjacking. This blog has gone from a great place for discussion to the park Soap Box, and I really miss the old blog.

SB, I apologize; I forgot to answer one of your questions.
Mind clarifying? I'm not sure I understand.
Moral certainty is always relative to a particular belief(s) as it relates to a particular act in a particular situation by a particular person. It is the certainty in that belief(s) needed for the act to be moral.
So for instance, if one knew that your friend used to be an alcoholic and you were absolutely certain of this having witnessed it yourself, there would -- barring bizarre cases -- never be a case where you would have moral certainty to assert to another person that your friend is an alcoholic, since doing so would be the "sin" of detraction.
Let's look at three cases, x, y, and z:
If an assertion to a friend about the weather forecast is only of minor consequence (perhaps he is planning a picnic but perhaps he is sad and you don't want to needlessly make him sadder), then one may need to be say certain to a degree x that the forecast is for thunder, in order to assert it (to your friend, as below, but you can replace it with any other constant, such as a mutual friend or a stranger or what have you)
If you believe your friend slept with your wife, then you may need to be certain to a degree y, that is true, before asserting it
If you believe your friend slept with your ex-girlfriend but now you are happily married to another woman, then you may need to be certain to a degree z, that is true, before asserting it.
Now the varying circumstances and issues involved would likely make x, y, and z not equal. In most cases, z would be greater than y and y, greater than x.
So moral certainty is a fluid concept. It is the certainty needed to act. It isn't the certainty needed for a belief to be assented to or expressed by a man who is an island, but a belief to be acted upon (including perhaps acted upon by being asserted) by man in his social environment.
Moral certainty as a fixed level of certainty is not something I think the magisterium would support.

CT,
In my view, in contrast, the values of morality are not fixed in some heavenly constellation, but are themselves grounded in the nature of a moral subject, the deepest desires of a person. Because, the deepest desires of a person are beautiful ...

You worship yourself and believe you have the ability, no, the responsibility to declare right and wrong. How convenient to decide things like pornography, prostitution and abortion aren't wrong unless, of course, you say they are wrong.
Of, course you would never worship God you are to busy worshipping yourself in the looking glass...
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

"You make some good points and also use some internet slang that I am unfamiliar with which I assume is just frivolity I can safely ignore. I appreciate your expressed agreement with me on some points which is a good sign that the constraints of parochiality, defensiveness, blinding passion, and partisanship are not insurmountable ones. Let me just make a few responses:"
Anyone who still disagrees with CT is being parochial and defensive and is blinded by passion and partisanship. Just so everyone is clear on that.
"Because, the deepest desires of a person are beautiful"
Except when they have been warped by original sin, which they have.
"If it be true (as it certainly is) that a man can feel exquisite happiness in skinning a cat, then the religious philosopher can only draw one of two deductions. He must either deny the existence of God, as all atheists do; or he must deny the present union between God and man, as all Christians do. The new theologians seem to think it a highly rationalistic solution to deny the cat. "
G.K. Chesterton - Orthodoxy

I believe I mispelled the priest's name. His first name IIRC is Thomas and last name IIRC is spelled with a y on the end. My apologies for any untoward associations it may have resulted in.

SB,
You make some good points and also use some internet slang that I am unfamiliar with which I assume is just frivolity I can safely ignore. I appreciate your expressed agreement with me on some points which is a good sign that the constraints of parochiality, defensiveness, blinding passion, and partisanship are not insurmountable ones. Let me just make a few responses:
I suppose you think that if she were driving, rather than veering aside from an obstacle, she would take a few minutes to pray before responding to the crisis. Your supposition that religion makes people idiots is incorrect.
When I said that I expect she would pause "momentarily" in the case of nuclear crisis, I was speaking not of a "few minutes" necessarily, but had in mind something more along the lines of 10 seconds to a minute. I thought actually I had used "seconds" above, but I guess in my editing, I chose instead the term "momentarily" which I thought was sufficiently clear. As for driving, maybe you are not acquainted with those Catholics who pray the Rosary while driving. I wouldn't mind if that were outlawed along with cell phone use. So assuming it was not your intent to argue against a strawmen, as indeed I do assume, it seems we talked past each other on this minor point.
Let me also clarify that I am not saying that voting for McCain-Palin is not objectively evil or even not objectively evil under Catholicism; I am only saying it is reasonable under Catholicism, i.e. that a reasonable person can reasonably come to the conclusion that it is a good thing to do under Catholicism. But since you brought it up, as for my own opinion, I do not believe voting for McCain or for that matter anyone else of the four major candidates (Obama, Barr, Nader), is objectively evil. This is because I view morality as founded in this case partially in the object chosen or the object which constitutes the act prescinding from the person performing it, but also partially in the person performing the act. This view, broadly speaking, is actually the view, with appropriate terminological translation, of Catholic theory on natural law which postulates that what is right and wrong is constituted by the subjective nature of man, not always in relevant ways universal (ex. sex) -- by how man, a subject, the moral agent in question, is constituted in himself. In the Catholic theory, any moral subject has certain facts which are true of it to which facts can be applied certain eternal moral principles which are grounded ultimately in the simplicity which is God -- God is not merely the source of moral law; God literally is the ultimate ontological reality which constitutes moral life at its maximum or perfection. So the values of morality fall from the sky if you will even though they will of course interact with the "facts on the ground", the nature of moral subjects, in forming the principles of natural law. In my view, in contrast, the values of morality are not fixed in some heavenly constellation, but are themselves grounded in the nature of a moral subject, the deepest desires of a person. Because, the deepest desires of a person are beautiful ... a point btw that Fr. Benedict Groeschel made when I used to listen to him ... the true expression of those will likewise be in extension, beautiful. So I see morality as being subsumed under aesthetics ... and with the historic Catholic position in philosophy and contrary to the present academic orthodoxy, I reject the notion that beauty, be it physical or spiritual, is something non-inherent in the object to which beauty is ascribed. The attraction to the object is non-inherent but the fittingness of the attraction is inherent in the objective relationship between the object found beautiful and the subject which finds it so. So, in short, this subsummation does not constitute a moral anti-realism as I am committed to realism in aesthetics, as historically Catholic philosophy is ... and as CAL guest Fr Dubai is.
I don't think you addressed my point on Palin's end time views and the Catholic criticism of Huckabee for similar end time views. Your hero Buchanan attributed Left Behind end time views to Palin. I quoted him above with a link to the transcript. Buchanan is a Catholic. ....

paul wrote:
If it's ok to split the [abortion] decision 50 ways, why isn't it ok to split it 300 million ways?
The man has a point.

CT wrote:
I did not say Palin thought prayer made "study" and "good counsel" unnecessary. I said only that if she receives a "word from the Lord" that that "word" may have an influence on her decisions. This introduces an element of unreliability.
This is not an unreasonable concern for an atheist. It doesn't especially bother me, and it doesn't seem to bother most of the other commentors here.
A "word from the Lord" should have zero influence. It should not have any evidential value for the politician whatsoever.
...for you to vote for them. As I said, others don't share your discomfort.
I don't think you all understand what a "word from the Lord" is for these "bible-believing" "pentecostal" "evangelical" type Christians.
I'd venture to say that you don't either.
BTW, this has nothing to do with controversies raised by the mainstream media regarding whether Palin said the Iraq war had God on its side -- though the scholar in the article did note that it would be fair to assume Palin thought it was a holy war. So you all who construed my comments in that manner or in the other erroneous manner as noted above or in others are violating your own principle -- the principle of charitable interpretation which you demand be given to Palin.
Huh? Who insisted on such an interpretation for Palin?
The comment from the NY bishops, if accurate, is striking. However there was an Eastern Catholic bishop who during the Iraq war made a similar minority comment condemning the Iraq war and arguing that as a bishop, what the catechism may say about the province of the laity notwithstanding, it rests with him to authentical teach faith and morals in their application to this arena. I believe the term "mortal sin" was used by the bishop too. IIRC, JA commented on the matter, if not here on this blog then on the radio.
I happen to agree with the bishop you mention, although I'm not convinced his opinion was in the minority. I think most Catholic clergy opposed the invasion of Iraq as an unjust war; certainly HH BXVI made such an objection before the invasion was launched.
BTW, something a Protestant caller once said on the CAL radio show and the response to it, is for me one of the many things that comprise evidence against Catholicism. The Protestant caller remarked how the CAL program seemed to be exclusively about technicalities, rules, legalities, and intellectual issues as opposed to the heart of Christianity.
If that was the one hosted by John Martignoni, then I heard it too. I'm not terribly fond of him. No, it's not just his voice; I think he's unnecessarily antagonistic.
To be fair, though, there's not much to discuss in public about a private personal relationship. It's possible to speak logically about technicalities, rules, legalities, and intellectual issues. Speaking about your personal love for someone... after awhile, there's not a whole lot more you can say.
As for your example about marriage: if I were discussing marriage in the abstract, I would likely never bring up my own marriage or my own feelings for my wife, and if I did, you would no doubt accuse me of trying to use anecdotal evidence to support my claims. I can tell you about my own feelings for God, and my own personal experiences with him, but they won't be terribly meaningful to you, and many of them are... well, personal and intimate.
First, you talk about how scary it is that someone may think she gets personal revelations from God, and then you criticize Catholics for focusing more on abstract argument than on their personal relationship with God. You are disturbed by the charismatic renewal, but think we should all speak more like charismatics in this combox. The fact is that the Church has both elements in spades. You're more likely to come across abstract arguments in the combox of an apologetics blog than you are in a healing mass at your local charismatic parish. That's just the nature of this kind of online discussion.
[Palin] considers it indispensible to pray on a daily basis, including in seeking guidance from God in political issues as well as all issues in her life -- she stated this to Hugh Hewitt's radio show for example and she said that some mock this simplicity of her faith. So when faced with a crisis situation she may waste say 30 minutes a day praying when every spare moment of her time should be devoted to addressing the crisis at hand.
I'd have no problem with her taking some time out for prayer. If she's anything like me, her prayer will improve the quality of her decisions. Incidentally, I'd want her to eat and sleep too.
If the House fails to pass the bailout bill, would you want Bush or other leaders of relevance to waste valuable time in prayer, time that could have been spent to restart negotiations or to draw up plans to prevent market panic?
Absolutely. Not to the exclusion of taking action, but I don't think you're really suggesting that this is a real danger, are you?
The Christian Joe Scarborough made a good point on MSNBC's Morning Joe recently questioning whether the House should have been on vacation for a religious holiday. He noted he worked on Good Friday while in Congress and also claimed that if it were Christmas Day and he were in Congress during this time of crisis, he would be willing to work. I presume he would be one who would not waste time in prayer.
You really don't see the difference between taking a few minutes out to pray and taking a long weekend away for vacation?
Take a look at Bush. He himself admits that he prayed for God's guidance before making his decision to go to war against Iraq. Look where that got us.
In my own opinion, his decision to go to war in Iraq had more to do with taking instruction from his handlers than divine guidance. As far as I can tell, his statements about his prayer life are what you would call religious pandering.
I fully expect that under a Palin presidency if for some reason nuclear missiles were headed America's way that instead of responding in a decisive manner following the advice of military leaders, she would pause at least momentarily for prayer. A few seconds wasted in that case may be disastrous and in the case of the present economic crisis, an hour each day wasted in prayer may be disastrous.
...and this shows to me that you really don't understand Christians. I suppose you think that if she were driving, rather than veering aside from an obstacle, she would take a few minutes to pray before responding to the crisis. Your supposition that religion makes people idiots is incorrect.
The problem is that Palin would consider prayer -- if not in the nuclear scenario then at least in the current scenario -- something that is all the more necessary in a time of crisis.
Again, not something that bothers me. I still trust that she'd be perfectly able to respond to evaluate how much time she actually has for prayer.
Palin also sees defending Israel as a divine calling as opposed to something justified merely on geopolitical grounds.
Yes, this is actually the thing that scares me the most about Palin. Unfortunately, Obama isn't any better on this count. None of the mainstream candidates have anything approaching a reasonable position on Israel, Iran, or Pakistan.
When a politician believes God can and moreover often does intervene in political affairs, she will naturally try to effect that intervention.
Again, this doesn't bother me. The fact that she prays doesn't mean she's incapable of action.
Giving lip service to a religious American public is necessary for the politican of today. ... I think the number of politicans for whom that was an exercise of personal religious devotion to God can be counted on 1 or 2 hands, especially since some of these same politicians have insisted that the phrase is NOT a religious activity.
Agreed.
The notion of diverting the course of objects on a potential collision course with earth is not the stuff of science fiction. It is something that the federal govt is actively pursuing. First, the federal govt tracks objects and second the federal govt is researching and developing means by which such objects would be diverted from their course. There are different proposals and the govt seems more skeptical of some than others.... Federal money is being spent on this.
Cool. Certainly a much better use of my tax money than condoms for Africans, abortions for Americans, or wars of aggression.
Catholics or in particular Catholics who take their faith seriously have IMHO, a parochiality to their vision that makes it difficult to see how those who are not of their world view would perceive and interpret things.
Atheists or in particular atheists who take their nonfaith seriously have, IMHO an elitism to their vision that makes it difficult to see how those who are not of their world view would perceive and interpret things.
It is inconceivable to a Catholic for example, that morality could exist without God (per Aquinas natural law is itself intrinsically tied up with God) just as it might be inconceivable to a man from the Dark Ages that a book could exist without being in hard copy form.
Really? What makes you so certain I'm incapable of conceiving of such a thing? I've known many, many moral atheists. Heck, I've been one. Just because absolute morality is logically inconsistent with materialistic atheism doesn't mean I can't conceive of a moral materialist.
IMHO a, if you will, "root" defensive and parochial orientation of a broad character is present in the Catholic mentality in general, including in terms of for example how Catholicism views cultures disparate with christian values ... witness the Chinese ancestor worship controversy ... and I think this "root" parochiality and defensiveness is exhibited in all your dumbfoundedness and other reactions.
If you're going to make claims like this, you might at least drop the "H" from your "IMHO."
Step back from the Catholic world view for just one second and consider this. When two groups corresponding to two different world views clash, the likelihood that the nature of the clash or the attitude behind it would be misapprehended increases in proportion to the disparity of the world views in question and the coincidence of inherent conflict between them.
Isn't that kind of a truism? What about such an obvious statement makes it difficult for a Catholic to comprehend?
(BTW, one need not be Catholic to discover what Catholicism entails anymore than one need "believe in" Euclidean geometry to discover what it entails)
There are some things an anthropologist will never understand about his subjects.
Aside from personal acrimony it is the parochiality and defensive posture that I referred to above.
...
It is hypocritical also for some to demand a principle of charitable interpretation for Palin but then to malign me.
o_O
Passion blinds and religious passion blinds furiously.
Might this statement also apply to atheists?
And I was not aware that my posts here had to assume Catholicism be true.
They don't. But don't expect to get too much mileage out of the "She prays- isn't that scary?" argument here.
Acerbic chatter is something I am going to assume is something which is in Catholicism's view a reflection of the Trinitarian life.
o_O
Moral certainty is not some fixed level of certainty, but the certainty on which it is wise to act in a particular way.
Mind clarifying? I'm not sure I understand.
Note also that some of these religious criticisms of Palin apply even assuming the truth of Catholicism. For instance, the criticism the London Times makes applies assuming the truth of Catholicism. So this business of not assuming the truth of Catholicism is a red herring of sorts in some cases, as noted already above.
No, it's a straw man- one you constructed yourself.
I don't believe [voting for McCain/Palin] would be [objectively evil]. I am contending that either choice is acceptable, within the realm of a reasonable prudential calculus. I am defending Kmiec, not defending the straw man view that voting for Palin is unreasonable on Catholicism.
Agreed.

Jordanes, what made your comment trolling in my view was that it was designed to get an emotional rise out of someone. That is how I personally define "trolling" ... but however it is labelled, I do not feel it is a wise thing to do, even as a means to a good end. None of my comments here have been designed to do that, at least none that I recollect. OTOH, I think the comments of many Catholics here are designed to do that. Perhaps yours was not and if so I do apologize without qualification. But to give an example, I think the suggestive comments regarding my being a customer of prostitutes was trolling ... but I am hoping to move beyond discourse about discourse, and get back to the original subject of discourse. I hope you will join me in that.
Jordanes, you also mischaracterize my comments. I was not claiming that there are not Catholics who claimed that voting for Palin is unreasonable on Catholicism. I was claiming that *I* was not claiming that voting for Palin is unreasonable on Catholicism. BTW, that is different from claiming that I was not claiming that voting for Palin is objectively not justified on Catholicism. I agree with Zippy Catholic on the broad issue that invokes, namely, if I were to formulate it in my own terms, that an opinion is justified ultimately in its conformity to the truth -- objectively, primarily in the truth of the content of the opinion, but can also said to be justified in a subjective sense in terms of the rightness of the process by which the opinion is formed. So while I may quibble slightly with Zippy's zippy and sweeping rhetoric, I do think he made a good point, which he again, formulated slightly differently and which you can read on his blog. So it may be as it turns out due to the facts of principle and the facts to which principle might apply that it is is indeed objectively speaking not justified to vote for McCain. But that doesn't mean that there is not some manner of subjective justification that objectively exists, nor does it mean that the opinion that it is justified -- an opinion held in objective error -- is nevertheless reasonably held and reasonably held by a reasonable person.
As I've noted before, reasonable persons can disagree not only matters in which it is in fact reasonable to disagree but may disagree on what matters are in fact reasonable to disagree on.
BTW, you also mischaracterize me as "stumping for Obama." My opinion of Obama is rather law. As I have expressed a couple times here, I recommend a vote for a third party and as I've indicated as to my own preference, I prefer Bob Barr. Your prejudice, operative here, is in my opinion, a reflection of the fact that passion blinds and religious passion blinds furiously.

Hey, CT made a pertinent comment!
I don't believe it would be.
Then you agree with SDG -- and you're right.
I am contending that either choice is acceptable, within the realm of a reasonable prudential calculus.
That's another subject, though -- and it begs the question of whether or not a non-Catholic moral calculus can rightly be called reasonable.
I am defending Kmiec, not defending the straw man view that voting for Palin is unreasonable on Catholicism.
It's not a straw man: there are actually Catholics who claim that voting for McCain/Palin is objectively sinful and not justifiable in Catholic moral doctrine.
In my view, quite candidly, you are a troll ...
Disagreeing with you and objecting to your changing the subject and stumping for Obama does not make someone a troll.
and you contradict yourself in your very post. You cannot say: Let's not respond to CT; while, at the same time responding to me in many posts, including one concurrent with the one above in another thread.
I didn't say let's not respond to CT, I said let's not feed the troll: let's stop encouraging or assisting you in your penchant for carrying discussions far afield. Anyway, how is rebutting some of your comments *prior* to my saying we should stop enabling you responding to you *at the same time*?

I don't believe it would be. I am contending that either choice is acceptable, within the realm of a reasonable prudential calculus. I am defending Kmiec, not defending the straw man view that voting for Palin is unreasonable on Catholicism. In my view, quite candidly, you are a troll ... and you contradict yourself in your very post. You cannot say: Let's not respond to CT; while, at the same time responding to me in many posts, including one concurrent with the one above in another thread.

And still the ex-Christian CT has failed to establish that voting for McCain/Palin would be objectively evil according to Catholic moral doctrine. (Not surprising since he's not interested in that question.)
Don't feed the troll, folks.

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