Appreciating Beauty vs. Concupiscence

by Jimmy Akin on January 6, 2009

in Moral Theology

A reader writes:

This is regarding "looking at girls".

I am very clear that obviously pornography is a grave matter.

I also am clear that deliberately engaging in lustful thoughts, lustful desires, or trying to arouse yourself (outside marriage) with full knowledge and full consent is also mortal sin.  Of course thoughts without these aspects are either venial or not a sin.

What I still struggle with is the question of "deliberately looking at an attractive or shapely girl".  And liking to do so.

I had understood that one could deliberately look at an attractive girl and admire her beauty -even the beauty of her form- and that the pleasure one finds in seeing her beauty and shape was not sinful to consent to and one could just ignore any "reactions of concupiscence" that happen.

Of course one must take care ..and know yourself …as well as at times use custody of the eyes –particularly if she is very immodestly dressed.

Also that one could even look at a work of art that is nude etc (that is not lustfully done –that shows the dignity of the person) and admire the form and beauty and ignore any "reactions of concupiscence". 

Is this treating a girl as an object? Am I wrong in doing this? Is it sinful?

In this context, treating someone "as an object" mean improperly treating a person as an instrument of sexual gratification and thus not properly recognizing the dignity of the person.

There are also other ways one can (non-sexually) "object"-ify a person, e.g., treating a spouse as merely a means of getting certain tasks done (breadwinning, household management, whatever).

In general, treating someone merely as a means to an end and not respecting the fundamental dignity of the person results in the objectification of that person. Sexual objectification is just one species in a larger genus.

But you know what doesn't belong to this genus?

Recognizing a person's good points.

If someone is beautiful or handsome or smart or prudent or a good breadwinner or a good household manager or a good square dance caller or has any other good points, it's fine to recognize and appreciate those facts.

If they are manifest, it would even be contrary to reason not to do so.

So recognizing and appreciating the beauty of the human form–in general or in a specific case–is not a sin.

At least you couldn't guess it from the statues and paintings that the folks at the Vatican have all over the place. They sure seem to be on board with this idea.

I mean, just look at the Sistine Chapel!

Just look at the Last Judgment!

And this is where they elect popes!

So it seems to me that one is on pretty safe ground saying that it's okay and not-automatically-objectifying if you recognize and appreciate physical beauty or any other good attribute that a person has.

It becomes objectifying if you reduce the person's worth to just their good or useful qualities.

Of course, in the area of appreciating physical beauty–especially of the opposite sex–we have to be careful.

It's one thing to be looking at a marble statue of a nude woman.

It's another to be looking at a color photograph of a nude woman.

It's another yet to be looking at a real live nude woman.

These represent different levels of moral risk, and the greater the peril, the more stringent efforts must be taken to avoid it or escape from it.

Because people are different and subject to different levels of temptation, they will have to determine based on their own self-knowledge and personal history what situations are too dangerous for them to allow themselves to be in.

For some–particularly males at a particular stage of life–even looking at artistic representations of nudes may be too much.

As normal in risk management–which is what avoiding temptation is, since it's not possible to completely eliminate the risk of temptation (given the mind's ability to produce temptation on its own)–one must avoid two extremes: under-estimating the risk that a situation poses and over-estimating it.

For most people the laxist approach is the greater danger, which is why Jesus told us to seek the narrow path.

For other people, particularly those subject to scrupulous tendencies, the rigorist approach is a danger.

Neither approach is what we are called to.

What one must do is evaluate the risk a particular course of action poses for one and act accordingly.

In some cases temptation will arise despite one's efforts. That's the nature of risk. As long as the risk isn't zero–and it never is in this life–sometimes temptation will arise.

The thing to do when that happens is relax, ignore the temptation, and move on to something else.

The "relax" part is important, because if one allows oneself to become anxious about temptation then it only reinforces the temptation.

Temptation is deprived of its power if you refuse to get anxious about it and simply move on.

Because I'm not the reader, I can't say precisely what courses of action are too risky in his case, but I can say that it's not sinful to simply recognize and appreciate beauty. (As opposed to dwelling on or studiously contemplating the details of a particular person's physical form, which is going to increase risk.)

I can say that it is not sinful to be exposed to any and all levels of non-zero risk. (Zero risk of temptation is impossible in this life.)

And I can say that if he tries to instantly avert his eyes from every single pretty girl he sees then he will foster an anxiety about temptation that will actually feed the temptation he is seeking to minimize.

The better thing to do is avoid situations that are known to be dangerous (i.e., that pose a significant risk of significant temptation) and to otherwise relax and move on when temptation does appear.

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I failed to mention that I actually had two questions in that previous post. Please dont be confused. The first sentance is unrelated to the rest.

My question.
Is it wrong to look at women while currently being in a realtionship with another, whether that be dating or marriage?
On one hand i'm told that we can't avoid all near occasions of sin and that i shouldn't look away from women, but on the otherhand I'm told i should flee from a situation which may be a struggle for me? How can anyone have both these mentalities? I guess what it comes down to is should I stay and fight the temptation or flee from the temptation if it becomes a consistent battle. Just the other day i was talking to a girl and I swear i could not just simple look at her without an impure reaction, so then i look away, and continue to to talk, but still feel turned on. Should I excuse myself or look at her straight in the eye and tell myself im going to give a sincere try to looking at her purely?
And how do i deel with things such as dancing? Say perhaps its not uncommon for there to be a struggle while im dancing with a girl( modest dancing.) doers this mean I shouldn't dance at all?

What about looking at a 12 year old girl who has breasts?

If one suffers from hebephilic temptations (disordered attraction to pubescent children) or other issues, such a look might be problematic.
If a healthy adult can appreciate an adorable baby or a lovely prepubescent child, I see no reason why he might not also be able to appreciate the budding femininity of a 12-year-old (or a 14-year-old, or a 16-year-old) with a gaze as chaste and decent as a good father's.

What about looking at a 12 year old girl who has breasts?

Truth, Beauty, Goodness. These things exist in the actual world and exist independent of what we think of them. Catholicism--it's not just a head trip.

My earlier question concerned how to change the size of a font within a combox, say for a quote.

I still don't understand, TMC. Doesn't the blockquote tag, like the one above, make the quote appear on a smaller font than the rest of the comment?

My earlier question concerned how to change the size of a font within a combox, say for a quote. I tried the h1, h2, sizes; it tried the big/small command; I tried the div/span command. I can't seem to shrink the font in a part of a combox post and then bring it back to size.
Obviously, once can globally change the size of the font by either changing the font type or size in the browser.
I'm still weak and dizzy. I contracted some stomach thing either from moving water-soaked carpets the other day or from a student. Either way, I have massive fluid loss and sitting up for long periods is problematic. Assuming it isn't something serious, I just have to drink plenty of fluids and wait. Chicken soup is definitely on my diet list for replacement of sodium.
Oh, yet another topic related to beauty for you guys to discuss in my absence (and I know it might start another long series of posts that are perennial in catholic comboxes, but it is relevant): a study was just published this week that says that urban environments, the noise, the high information content, can decrease brain function and self-control. Is there a difference between country folk and city folk in the area of beauty vs. lusting? Does the high-pace of urban life make things like custody of the eyes more difficult (try crossing the street that way)? If so, would this not be a reason to ask women in the workplace in urban settings to dial it down a notch in terms of how they display themselves in dress, knowing that men are weaker in this setting?
The Dizzy Chicken

Getting back to the topic....
Beauty is good...a reasoned appreciation is good...but one must in the area of "looking" at the beauty of a woman --(I speak as a man)---know oneself and as Jimmy states above ones "risk".
There is a time to look and appreciate beauty...and there is a time to notice and turn away....
I time to see and a time to flee :)

FWIW, not having any other way to contact aslos - and against my own advice (above) I would like to say that I don't believe I insisted that aslos (whatever handle he/she was using at the time) was necessarily an atheist... only that he/she did not hold to any kind of Christianity that could be identified as such by any commonly understood or historic use of that word.
It seemed to me always a kind of game of doctrinal minimalism... as in "how far afield of traditional creedal understandings of Christian doctrine can one go and still (in one's own mind) call it 'Christianity'?".
My e-mail address is easily found, aslos.

Sorry, Tim J, but flouting your excellent advice I have one quick comment for aslos:
aslos: FWIW, my express wish for you to use a consistent handle was not about one handle change, but a pattern of rotating handles. Although you may have made some mention about your latest name change, such mention could easily be missed by users not reading every single post ... and while this wouldn't be an issue for a single handle change, the constant round robin has gotten wearying.

...it would only be decent to refrain from hashing over his posts above or leaving any parting shots in the combox.

I wouldn't know what to say, anyway. It would be a waste of time.

Given that aslos has made for the exit, it would only be decent to refrain from hashing over his posts above or leaving any parting shots in the combox.
Let it be.

Tim, my post was directed to Mattheus. As for your missing it, it was right here
"To those to whom my preferences matter an iota:
"There's been at least three jokes now made on my name Ruse as it relates to "rose". Maybe it was funny the first time, but it is getting tiresome and frankly annoying (to me, if that should matter to you) If this continues, then I will have to think of a new name."
and then after pondering the matter, I decided as announced in the name field of a later post in the same thread and as happened to be in the same page of comments:
"Ruse, hoping the next series of puns be more creative"
that I would change my name.
WRT to CW versus CT, I had stated:
"JFYI, I am going to now post comments on this blog as "CW" instead of "CT". The reason is that I intend to move my blog "courageous thought" to a new name and url and perhaps have multiple blogs with different themes. One day I may end up giving up the original blog url, so it may result in confusion by retaining "CT". If someone takes over the url, then please be aware, that some posts I've made on certain blogs using OpenID would of course now associate a blog not controlled by me with my post or comment on other blogs. . . ."
and in the name field I had written "CW, no longer CT and maybe soon to no longer operate courageous thought"
Yet consistently in that thread a certain individual as I noted persisted in referring to me as "CT/CW" numerous times -- perhaps so that other readers would not neglect to notice, even though it would have been clear from the same link I continued to include (when remembering to do so) in the URL field anyway. And as I have noted, one individual also suggested a certain lack of "transparency" in going from CT to CW even though it was fully transparent.
Anyway, now that the record is clear on that as well as your statement, I bid you my leave. Good luck with your human pursuits.

BTW,
Why is it that you don't ask for example, "stromboli" to say that is "formerly having posted here as bill bannon etc" -- "bill bannon" is like "CW" or "Charel Weng" AFAIK, a pen name and not "stromboli"'s real name .... or for that matter TMC who has acknowledged having posted under at least two other handles (not variations of chicken)
I don't think btw, that your chiming in here was really helpful. Perhaps you were intending to be helpful. Well, you are not being helpful. And as intelligent as you might be you seem to have (1) not realized that I had not been angered -- until your latest post that is and (2) not realized that which I was objecting to and that which was of concern to me which has little to nothing to do with my posting history as it does with my personal safety and fortune. I mentioned this before but on one occasion outside this forum someone threatened physical harm on me for something I had written. Of course expressions of violent impulses are not altogether uncommon here. Given this I will have to withdraw as, as much good might obtain from my participation, it seems evident that certain individuals are obsessive in for example googling the content of I presume a preponderance if not vast majority of Dan Hunter's posts to see if he plagiarized something ... as there are things penned to my real and full name on the Internet and as, as has happened before -- and the partial reason for it I tried explaining but evidently you did not grasp it -- one could certainly with enough effort peg me to those things. FWIW, -- and you may like Tim J choose to doubt my "veracity" here -- but I have been a victim of religious violence before -- yes in real life, that's the only way real, religious violence obtains. So when I am cognizant of the past threat of physical violence based on something I wrote on the virginity of Mary conveyed outside this forum and when I am cognizant of the several posts here which expressed violent impulses, it would not be prudent for me to remain here.
I will limit my online involvement to the more academically oriented blogs where issues of decorum are rarely if ever an issue. I think it is wise that on some of these blogs they require people to post under their real names -- not doing so causes some to say things they wouldn't otherwise say. But since posting under my real name would frankly embarass me as certain of my social cohort would not look favorably upon belief in the supernatural, spiritual, or in the God of enlightened theism and reformed Christianity. As I bid you leave, along with your mocking and ridicule wrt to "another ostensible final exit" ... this does make me have about the same as TMC ... I said 3 or 4 wrt to TMC, remembering 3 distinctly, but I think it was 4 -- one I had previously not remembered was where TMC bid us leave as he stated the blog was a source of temptation for him -- one of the Mary's on this blog suggested that could be a valid reason to leave even it should be merely the occasion of scrupulosity that the blog gives rise to .... anyway, along with your mocking, if you would kindly pray for someone close to me (but not me) who is a materialist/physicalist. I pity him as I think it renders his life in conception devoid of meaning but I am encouraged that more secular scientists now are envisioning a world without God but yet composed of space, time, matter, energy, and consciousness as fundamental ingredients ... O, and TMC, in your statistical studies, aside from checking your data, read up on something some term "patternicity"
btw "los" stood for "love of satan" ... Rosalind Moss once expressed the view that God "loves" Satan on CAL, FWIW ... in any event, I think we should love preferentially those who are forgotten and ignored and shunned such as the unborn and satan.
BTW, FWIW -- though if one subscribes to the Tim J hypothesis that I am really an atheist this will be of no use to you -- I have transitioned from an arcane from of Christian pantheism to non-pantheistic belief. BTW, ... SDG ... you once "apologized" to me -- and characterized it as an "apology" for mischaracterizing me as an atheist not knowing that I was now a theist ... but yet you say you find Tim J's view that I am an atheist posing as a theist to be "plausible" -- perhaps Tim J's view was not fully stated at that time, but it was later, obliquely, in a PZM thread ... I find that inconsistent.
Anyway, I hope you get back to your discussion w/out me as I think for ex. that Kevin had some interesting things to say. May beauty greet you in paradise, reward you in paradise and be in interpenetrate with you in paradise that you might in, per Franciscan theology, love of beauty find your joy and, per Thomistic theology in sight of beauty find your peace. And may RJN - RIP - who was in my experience humble and diplomatic find occasion to help resolve the conflict, strife, and discord that obtains amongst even the good angels* in the spirit with which he worked to resolve conflict between evangelicals and Catholics.
*Cf. http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1113.htm#article8
and "stromboli"/"bill bannon"/etc.: keep up the good work in my absence ... ditto to TMC ;)

"To me if it's not Catholic,it has no worth.
Period."
Does that go for people, too?

"I wouldn't announce that I was going to change my name from Ruse -- as I had done btw in case you missed it"
I missed it.

Aslos,
I can not agree with your "requirement of consent" in this regards. I find nothing in my long experience in Catholic Theology and Church Teaching nor even in St. Thomas that would require the consent of a person in order to gaze upon the beauty of their face. Yes modestly does of course cover according to St. Thomas a number of things. But consent to gaze upon a persons beautiful face is not required...
I honestly think you are rather over thinking the issue and (no offense intended) are creating an unreasonable (though well intentioned) requirement of consent of this sort beholding of a beautiful person. Something outside of even St.Thomas's long discourse on Modesty.
And I would hazard to say it is not in harmony either with Pope John Paul II's in depth theology of the Body. Nor Pope Benedict's emphasis on the importance of the face.
I find instead the view to be more in the range of an unreasonable restriction of life...

Matheus,
I wasn't angry before, but you have made me angry now. Perhaps that was your intention since if you presumed me to already be angry, it wouldn't take a genius to realize that your post would only increase that anger.
Just so you know, since you don't seem technically adept, websites can be configured to capture the following information:
IP address
browser
operating system
internet service provider
referrer
If I wanted to be "deceptive" I would use a VPN, I wouldn't announce that I was going to change my name from Ruse -- as I had done btw in case you missed it -- nor would I continue in the same writing style that has characterized all my posts here ... I mean who else on this blog writes as I do? ... who else on the internet does? I know of a few others who do, but it's really rather rare. And why should it matter to you whether I overestimate or understimate your intelligence? Why is that so important to you? Since it seems so important to you, I will go ahead and estimate your intelligence -- FWIW, I've never estimated anyone's intelligence here before -- as 105 scaled to the standard deviation scheme of the WAIS (... TMC brought up IQ tests once before and I didn't comment then, but those scores have a different scheme of scaling depending on the test -- for example one standard deviation in the WAIS does not equal the same number of points as it does in the Stanford-Binet)
BTW, I think "normalcy" obtained until you decided to I suppose "figure" out or "unmask" that which was ostensibly hidden and continue a past pattern of obnoxiousness (which consisted unlike here of not initially addressing me as you did but repeatedly so) ... even though for ex., Tim J alluded to my change in name the other day previously ... perhaps he remembered that I announced I would change my name like the day before I changed it ... I am sorry Mattheus that I thought that would have constituted an epistemic environemnt amply facile for someone as intelligent as you to not have to rack your brain as to who this might be.
I don't think btw -- and sorry if this insults your intelligence ... or whatever it is you thought I insulted -- that you understood what I referred to when I wrote of "real identity" ... Sleeping Beastly similarly did not understood previously. I am referring to my real full name when I speak of that. In some forums things like that are held sacred and considered private even if it is common knowledge on other forums whom someone is. In one such forum, they do this partially because certain individuals might not feel so free to express or explore if their "real identity" -- I hope this clarifies what I mean -- were known as for ex. their employer or institution they are connected with or colleagues of theirs may not view certain expressions as praiseworthy (for ex. if their colleagues are anti-Christian, they may view explorations of Christianity as a betrayal of methodological naturalism in the natural sciences).

FWIW, if it is partially -- or merely -- the size of font that is at issue for some, then that can be easily corrected in several browsers even without the use of any "ad ons" or "extensions." For ex., in the latest version of firefox, I believe the default behavior for full page zooming (not merely text, but text and images in unison) is for it to be site-specific. So for example, if you open up cnn.com and set the full page zoom to say 200%, then whenever you go to cnn.com everything will be, more or less, twice as big (but yet still fit on your screen, provided your display's resolution is sufficiently high) but when you go to politco.com that site will still remain as normal -- or as whatever you wish to set it to. So the browser will "remember" the full page zoom setting for each site. This is a totally separate function from choosing a font size and it also distinct from text-only zoom -- I am not sure if text-only zoom is site-specific or not, but full page zoom which is the default behavior is also defaulted to be site-specific -- and so it will remember it next time you open up the browser (using that same profile).
I believe similar site-specific full page zoom functionality is present in other browsers as well ... though perhaps not all.
Kevin,
one's consent can be conveyed in a variety of ways. Going to a dance signifies a certain kind of consent. Walking down a street does not give passersby consent to gaze as they please for as long as they please at the person's face, feet, or any other part of their body. Modesty just so you know as a virtue pertains to more than the avoidance of sexual sin. In some cases, wearing more clothing can be immodest. Modesty is the flourishing of an authentic treasuring and sharing of gifts -- here, especially, intimate to human nature. So, frankly, walking down a street in the hopes that others will notice and gaze and enjoy is a perversion of humanity. Walking down a street in the hopes that one might give pleasure to others, would be a more authentic humanity. Walking down a street in the hopes that one might achieve some goal (of mating) is fine too. But the first scenario involves a kind of self-absorption and self-orientation which is not the authentic self-possession which underlies modesty. More than a way of acting or behaving, modesty is a way of being. Modesty is the exercise of a certain temperance for the sake of the good that pertains to or is one's person.

...I will have to change my name yet again...

Dear aslos
When things seem to finally reach relative normalcy, you start this kind of stuff all over again...What I would like to ask you, based on SDG's request, is that at least this time you don't act deceptively, and find some way to make all of us aware that your new nickname is you. You can announce it beforehand, as you did with "CW", or you can make a transition between the two ("Such and Such, formerly aslos", etc.)
This way, as SDG said, you don't underestimate our intelligence, we don't have to unmask you, and you don't get angry when we do it.

Aslos
As to the swimsuit issue thing..they certainly would be going into not good waters..too orientated towards lust usually...
As to " I don't think the fact that a person has chosen to not wear a burkha gives one blanket permission to enjoy the beauty of his/her face as you might please."
I cannot admit this as being a reasonable approach.
It just simply is not reasonable --as one can see from SDG's common sense arguments above--to think one needs permission to look more than once a persons beautiful face.
Can you imagine going and seeking such permission?
Just think of the emphasis of Pope Benedict on the human face...even the very face of Jesus as revealing to us GOD.
The face is meant by God to be seen and so is beauty (in a reasonable way) of course some beauty is is marital beauty -- but the face is meant by God to be seen and as a the main way of social interaction --with everyone from one spouse to the person at the check out lane in the grocery store.
To contemplate the beauty of a persons face --even if they do not know or give "permission" is fine...
Now if you start stalking the person....or other things related unseemly ....well then one needs some outside assistance.

Aslos
As to the swimsuit issue thing..they certainly would be going into not good waters..too orientated towards lust usually...
As to " I don't think the fact that a person has chosen to not wear a burkha gives one blanket permission to enjoy the beauty of his/her face as you might please."
I cannot admit this as being a reasonable approach.
It just simply is not reasonable --as one can see from SDG's common sense arguments above--to think one needs permission to look more than once a persons beautiful face.
Can you imagine going and seeking such permission?
Just think of the emphasis of Pope Benedict on the human face...even the very face of Jesus as revealing to us GOD.
The face is meant by God to be seen and so is beauty (in a reasonable way) of course some beauty is is marital beauty -- but the face is meant by God to be seen and as a the main way of social interaction --with everyone from one spouse to the person at the check out lane in the grocery store.
To contemplate the beauty of a persons face --even if they do not know or give "permission" is fine...
Now if you start stalking the person....or other things related unseemly ....well then one needs some outside assistance.

SDG, there was no "figuring" out involved; I mentioned that I would change my name and gave the reason for it immediately prior to do soing. The reason for it was as I had mentinoned was that a few individuals, sometimes on more than one occasion were making puns on my name. Likewise, your suggestion that there has been a history of having to "figure" things out is untruthful ... but I would rather not have to go over that. For some reason, some people feel free to give people a misimpression there. As I have mentioned before, one individual, suggested that I had posted as "CT" and then in secret fashion posted later as "CW" -- that is not the truth. When I "changed" my name to "CW", I indicated explicitly the change in the name field and explained the reason in the body of the post ... and both "CT" and "CW" at that time alluded to a now defunct blog titled in correspondence with "CT" and authored by "CW", to which blog at that time I had usually linked when remembering to do so in the URL field -- so for example your suggestion previously that this was an instance of non- "transparency" was misleading as I previously had noted (IMO, you found it too tempting to piggyback on my appeal to transparency of a different sort, ecclesial transparency).
I would be happy to satisfy you as to your preferences but I wish persons would satisfy my own preferences ... it is fine that you express what would be nice as regards to what I prefer but I would hope that you in turn would be interested in what I would find nice as regards what I prefer. For example, though you have no control over this, I find it rather obnoxious for persons to when addressing me do so -- in consistent repeated fashion as "x/y/z" -- even you did so for some bizarre reason in the thread in which I changed my name to "CW" -- even though as I have tried explaining I explicitly mentioned the change in the "Name:" field and also explicitly stated the change in the body of the post in that very thread. Perhaps you just missed what was in the name field or perhaps you missed some of what was in the body of that post (you couldn't have missed all of it as you responded to some of it). I would also strongly prefer that no one refer to me as "Charel Weng" -- I have never used such in the "Name:" field here and my full real name is not "Charel Weng" ... however someone was able to discern my real identity partially based on the use of that pen name and some harassment occurred. Since a certain poster has already associated "aslos" with "Charel Weng" in another thread, unfortunately, I will have to change my name yet again and hope that no one, this time, refers to me as "Charel Weng" ... I don't mind so much if you refer to "CT" or "Ruse" -- which has the same genesis as "Rotten Orange" and "Brazilian Rotten Orange" in case BRO was unaware -- but it would be really really nice if people would respect my privacy and not refer to "Charel Weng" even though I have revealed that pen name on this blog and in links from here.
SDG,
On the substance of your post -- which I would prefer we could restrict ourselves to -- your characterization of my "theory" is a downright caricature and as such deserves no response.

aslos: Although it is not a rule, it would be really, really nice if you would pick a handle and stick with it. Talking to a blank slate takes more energy than talking to someone with whom you have a shared social history, and every time you change handles you force others to do unnecessary work until they figure out who you are.
Your "permission" theory strikes me as just silly. Take the common-sense examples: Are guests at a wedding precluding from noting the bride's beauty unless she offers some sort of explicit general waiver? Doesn't a pretty girl at a dance want to be noticed and asked to dance? How about the adorableness of children and babies -- are we supposed to not appreciate that as well?

"I can change the font in my browser (Firefox), but it will change everything, including the aggregator font."
BRO/RO/MF/M/BL, etc. OK ... you seem to be unaware that in Firefox you can appropriate ad-ons aka extensions -- some of which will enable you to have font settings specific to certain websites. So you could have one for jimmyakin.org It does not require complex self-coding to do so.

Brazilian Rotten Orange
"I think so, but then it would involve the kind of CSS formatting TMC mentioned, which I don't know and is beyond my patience, anyway."
No, TMC was referring to formatting your particular comments, I believe. What I am referring to is something else ... but you seem to have no interest in my help so I won't go on unless you express interest. But ... get some help.

Kevin, even a fully covered person could still be seen by say infared technology and have features revealed that way. I don't think the fact that a person has chosen to not wear a burkha gives one blanket permission to enjoy the beauty of his/her face as you might please. The sharing of beauty -- even the beauty of one's face, indeed, especially the beauty of one's face in certain ways as Kreeft suggests inasmuch as the face most brilliantly expresses the soul -- is in some degree or other, some fashion or other -- however slight that degree and however minor that fashion -- a relation of intimacy. Thus it would not be proper for someone to without the beautiful person's permission and gaze at that person in loving (of beauty) admiration, even say while being inspired to higher spiritual thoughts.
Look at it this way, some women wear form fitting clothing that unveils in that aspect certain features -- that does not mean that they are thereby giving you permission to look, "stare", or otherwise appropriate for yourself the gifts that are proper to their person. These gifts belong to them and it is for them to choose to share it. The physical possibility of your appropriating without their consent (in the case of an uncovered face for example) does not entail that they have given their consent. I don't have any surveys to cite, but I am fairly sure that many women would not be appreciative of men who would gaze at them outside a context of consent (such as romantic friendship or just openeness on their part) ... it may make them feel uncomfortable.
Consent here is not some secular concept of law, or a moralistic technicality, but a question merely of doing as they might wish or wished as pertains to the gifts proper to them and their nature.
Be assured that this is not meant to be a criticism of your person; I am trying to frame this politely and academically :)
Your (partial) agreement on my suggestion of exposure is appreciated. I don't think nudity is "impersonalizing." As Tim J has alluded to, nude models are used in art and are also of course depicted in art. I think the obscuring of the personal character of human bodily beauty comes not from any nudity but rather from a kind of reduction of the human person to be mere animal (as opposed to rational or spiritual animal). So a certain "crudeness" -- if I might leave it vague -- would be what obscures the personal reality of those depicted and that crudeness can obtain whether those persons are nude or fully clothed ... it can obtain even in mere writing such as: "I want some" -- which reduces an interpersonal act to a mere animal function akin to eating or some such -- even if such is not intended, the expression is at least not apt ... likewise certain graphic expressions, may despite good intention, be inapt in the same respect.

You can just change the font yourself in your browser settings (if you are able).

Dear aslos/atslos/Ruse/CT (...and so on and so forth...)
Thanks for the advice, but I already knew that. I mentioned the comments because the posts themselves I read on an RSS aggregator, which has a nice formatting, and there isn't a feed for the comments, but that's not what I would prefer because I don't like comment feeds. I can change the font in my browser (Firefox), but it will change everything, including the aggregator font. Of course I can choose the setting I like, check the box on Firefox that changes everything to read the comments, and then uncheck it, I don't know if I'm willing to do that; but since another reader had already complained about it, I thought an eventual change would benfit others, not only me.
You can also use tools that work with some browsers that would allow you to specific a font just for certain websites.

I think so, but then it would involve the kind of CSS formatting TMC mentioned, which I don't know and is beyond my patience, anyway.

When I say all such truths come from God I mean that truth has to do with "reality".
Truth in the mind is when the mind conforms to the reality outside of it in the world.
So all reality comes from God--and if any pagan --by use of his mind or even by some movement of the grace of God directly --comes to know about reality --about truth --that truth is...well truth.
If a pagan comes by reason to believe that there is only one God --well that is truth.
If he comes to reason that human persons have dignity and are created and need to be not hurt...well that is truth.
And we as Christians recognize that --hey they got it right....
as the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

"Please explain to me just how a Christian is expected to appreciate ANYTHING that buddha,mohammed,wicca or any other form of paganism has to say?
you would think that these heathens would be swept under the rug like dirt,compared to Jesus."
Sure. This is the case that all that is truth or goodness or Beauty -- the Church recognizes as such. This is her teaching. For all such things come from God. Of course Buddha etc has many things that are not true...we are not talking about these. But truth etc are discernable by our human reason -- and even Buddha other pagans can see good things and say true things.
As St. Justin Martyr the early Christian philosopher said (not direct quote) "All that is good and beautiful and true--belongs to us". He was talking about all the truths etc in pagan philosophies...
"To me if it's not Catholic,it has no worth.
Period."
But this is not the opinion of the Catholic Church....

To me if it's not Catholic,it has no worth.
Period.
Dominic.

Please explain to me just how a Christian is expected to appreciate ANYTHING that buddha,mohammed,wicca or any other form of paganism has to say?
you would think that these heathens would be swept under the rug like dirt,compared to Jesus.
Dominic.

"Personally, I think the antidote to this impersonalization of sex, body, and beauty, is not to shelter one's self from beauty but to immerse one's self more fully. So I would not advise people to avoid swimsuit magazines. Just as a phobia is often treated by more exposure, perhaps somewhat graduated, to the object of phobia, so also I think here, the disordered relationship to bodily beauty of person should be addressed not by sheltering one's self from bodily beauty -- how absurd does that sound! -- but by working to as SDG suggested transform one's self -- perhaps, as I am suggesting, by graduated exposure to bodily beauty, especially in venues in which the personal character of human bodily beauty is not too obscured."
-- I can agree that perhaps...for those who have too much stress or scruples over the issue-- a kind of "exposure and the "blocking" of the anxious response can be helpful ( I learned this in a course at Steubenville on Learning) --where a person who suffers such can intentionally look at a woman and then resist doing whatever kind of compulsion (etc) or seek to relax the anxiousness...
But I would not suggest a swimsuit magizine for this is not the best source for what you say next: "venues in which the personal character of human bodily beauty is not too obscured." For such is normally focused on immodest suits and in ways that would not "personalizing" but rather treating as an object. I would suggest rather looking intentionally at normally modestly dressed women...in this regards...but perhaps too the care of a professional should be sought when doing such a "treatment"...

"Sure, but, of course only if it is with the consent of that other person."
Hummm.... not the case.
Unless she is wearing a burka...
That I is why the face is on the outside and we do not wear things over it...

Mattheus,
You can just change the font yourself in your browser settings (if you are able). You can also use tools that work with some browsers that would allow you to specific a font just for certain websites.

"For instance...I see some strikingly beautiful person and I look again to admire that wonderfully made face ... this can be very good."
Sure, but, of course only if it is with the consent of that other person. To do otherwise would be staring. Beauty of a person is a good that is shared; if a person chooses for some motive to not share it or unveil it, others do not have a right to appropriate against will.
There seems to be an unfortunate materialism and reductionism at work in one, perhaps two here. Physical beauty can be and is objective quite apart from any relation it may have to things like health. There seems to be an assumption by one or two that any objectivity present must be grounded in health or some other thing that would be judged "objective" by modernity. That is not consonant with Catholic philosophical doctrine which sees physical beauty as inhereing in the object apprehended as beautiful independent of what association or any other kind of relation it may have to things like health or matters of what modernity terms "science."
Physical beauty as such like any other authentic beauty cannot itself tempt to evil for the nature of beauty as such is to be attractive, to attract to that which is true and good. The authentic apprehension of it also cannot as such tempt to evil for similar reasons. What can happen though is that its apprehension can be an occasion of other thoughts which are themselves unruly or other desires with are themselves unruly -- the apprehension itself and the attraction authentic to the beauty apprehended can never properly speaking be unruly, disordered, or "lustful." So it is important to distinguish this kind of "occasion of sin" from kinds which involve in themselves some element of evil such as the state of being slightly drunk -- which may be a tolerable state and something accepted as a side effect and even willed therapeutically as a means to an end, but which is nevertheless a physical evil with the shade of moral dimension insofar as it involves the perfection of the intellect and will. The beauty of a person, however, naked to the eye, would not in itself involve any kind of evil at all. An easy "proof" of that can be seen in that it was sanctioned mythically in the Garden. IOW, the occasion of sin here arises not from the impropriety of immodesty -- which is a separate issue -- but from defects in the human nature of would be observers. In terms of modesty, modesty properly speaking is an ideal or virtue that would be of relevance, here, even if all were perfect and impeccable. For modesty is not merely about self-protection or protection of others; modesty flows from a proper treasuring of one's gifts and properly understood would be something operative among lovers as well as, on a beach.
Personally, I think the antidote to this impersonalization of sex, body, and beauty, is not to shelter one's self from beauty but to immerse one's self more fully. So I would not advise people to avoid swimsuit magazines. Just as a phobia is often treated by more exposure, perhaps somewhat graduated, to the object of phobia, so also I think here, the disordered relationship to bodily beauty of person should be addressed not by sheltering one's self from bodily beauty -- how absurd does that sound! -- but by working to as SDG suggested transform one's self -- perhaps, as I am suggesting, by graduated exposure to bodily beauty, especially in venues in which the personal character of human bodily beauty is not too obscured.

I have spent a pleasantly frustrating evening trying to figure out a way to change the font size in the Typepad combox with no success.

Dear TMC
Why would you like to do that? I would prefer to see the font changed, because I realized that I agree with something told here by Dr. Peters about two years ago. Times New Roman is a beautiful font, but not good to read on a computer monitor; it isn't easy on the eye, especially after a few minutes.
Also, seeing the commentator's name on the top of the respective comment instead of after it would be great, considering the size of certain comments.
I am somewhat ill and standing up is problematic, today (some bacterial infection).

I hope it's not Avian Influenza.
I will pray for your health.

Hum....I would offer you some chicken soup ...
....but ....

Sorry to hear you're ailing, Chicken.

I have spent a pleasantly frustrating evening trying to figure out a way to change the font size in the Typepad combox with no success. I have tried every html I know, Short of editing the CSS (cascading style sheet), which ordinary posters do not have access to, is there a way to do this? This was one of Kevin's questions, above and it got me to thinking.
Sorry I haven't posted for a while. I am somewhat ill and standing up is problematic, today (some bacterial infection).
Basically, the whole problem of beauty vs. concupiscence can be reduced to finding each individual's via media.
The Chicken

But I would say "hey Genesis is a great beer you ought to try it" ....:):)
But yes I am not "recommending" taking a second look per se.

What I meant by "I can't say I would advise anyone to 'go ahead and look twice'..." was that, though that may be fine, it's not a pattern of thinking I would actively *encourage*.
I really enjoy good beer, but I can't see myself saying to an individual, "Gee, Ted, you ought to think about taking up drinking."...

And of course Jimmy does note looking too long can increase the temptation...
"As opposed to dwelling on or studiously contemplating the details of a particular person's physical form, which is going to increase risk."

Also --while the advice "do not go back for a second look" "can" be good...it can also cause trouble of the sort Jimmy referred to (especially for those with an eye for beauty) above when he said:
"And I can say that if he tries to instantly avert his eyes from every single pretty girl he sees then he will foster an anxiety about temptation that will actually feed the temptation he is seeking to minimize."
Sooo if the person says "I can not look a second time...." he can cause himself more of the "anxiety" and more temptation....like in the example Jimmy gave.
Or he can think it is a sin every time he gives a second look!! Which also would not be good...
It is better to be relaxed and know oneself...etc.
But of course if the "no second look" works for a person --that is good too :)

I did not mean to suggest "go ahead and look twice" but is is just not necessary to say "the second look is a sin" or something one can not do.
For instance...I see some strikingly beautiful person and I look again to admire that wonderfully made face ... this can be very good.

I can't say I would advise anyone to "go ahead and look twice"...
I would say that *if* you find your gaze lingering, give thanks to God for the beauty of his creation - relax - and look away.
Avoiding the near occasion of sin is a Christian duty, and the chances of a lingering look turning into lust are pretty good I'd say.
This is all in relation to looking at a real, live woman. Looking at art is a bit different. In that case, it may be fine to study the image for some time and in some detail. It is very possible for some to do this without it leading at all to lustful thoughts or temptations.
Any image that is calculated to arouse lust, (clothing or not) should be avoided. Many paintings of nudes just aren't about lust at all, and so it would be safer to look at some of these than at, say, a swimsuit calendar or a lingerie ad.

PS: John Paul the Great was going into a more deeper sense....of treating one wife like "not your wife" by lusting after her and making her an object...like some woman for use.

What Jesus said in Matthew however, is that to look upon a married woman in order to (pros ton) covet (epithumaesai) her is to have already committed adultery with her in your heart
.........................
This is not though what Jesus said in the Matthew...nor what the Church says he said.
Nor is it the way the very good English translations render it.
Nor ...is it what Jimmy says it says...
It is about lusting after any woman. (coveting can be of course a kind of lust ...but it would be directed to any woman ...not just a married woman)
As Jimmy says elsewhere on this blog:
"To address the issue, what Jesus said was:
You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart [Matt. 5:27-28].
Translated a bit more literally, he singled out those who look at a woman "to lust after her." (I.e., purposefully looking at her in order to incite lustful fantasies, not just looking at her and feeling attraction.)"

SDG, I'm going by memory, so feel free to check me on that. I don't want to lead anyone astray.

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