The Meaning of “Marital Intercourse”

by Jimmy Akin on November 26, 2010

in Benedict XVI, Moral Theology

Humanaevitae Over on his blog, Steve Kellmeyer has a post in which he argues against the claim that recent Magisterial documents using the phrase “conjugal act” are only addressing the use of contraception within marriage. He argues that the phrase “conjugal act” is to be given a broader meaning.

I appreciate the polite tone that Kellmeyer uses (for he is taking me to task here), and I hope to respond in the same way.

I am sympathetic to the desire to find in recent Magisterial statements a ban on contraception regardless of the circumstances. Indeed, I used to hold that this is what the documents said (in part because I was using faulty translations that rendered “coniugale commercium” as “sexual act” rather than “marital act” or, even more literally, “marital congress” or “marital intercourse”).

Over time, and in consultation with various Latin experts and experts in moral theology, I came to realize that this view is incorrect and that in its recent statements the Magisterium has limited itself to treating the use of contraception within marriage.

In the future it may deal with extramarital situations, but we will have to wait to see what it says. It may say that the same principles apply to extramarital sexual acts or it may not. We will have to see.

In his piece, Kellmeyer acknowledges that

[I]t is true that the 20th century Magisterial pronouncements on contraception all discuss the “conjugal act,”

but argues that

it is NOT the case that this phrasing is only meant to reference the sexual act within marriage.

He proposes several arguments for this, but his basic argument is this:

For precedence, we have the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, who clearly forbid the use of contraceptives regardless of the marital state of the participants.

A bit later on he summarizes his basic argument this way:

In order to reconcile the writings of the Fathers with the Magisterial documents which base themselves on the Fathers, we must assume that “conjugal act” does not strictly confine itself to meaning “the sexual act that takes place within marriage”, rather, it must mean “the sexual act that is supposed to take place within marriage (but often does not)”.

For this argument to be sound one would have to show that the phrase “coniugale commercium” (translated in whatever language the Fathers and Doctors were writing in) was used to refer to sexual intercourse without reference to whether it was occurring in marriage.

This would indeed set a precedent for taking the phrase “coniugale commercium” in something other than its obvious, literal sense. If a substantial series of quotations of this nature could be produced (not just one or two here or there, which would be insufficient to show an established usage) then it would show an established prior usage that was broader in semantic range.

Unfortunately, none of the writings that Kellmeyer cites (many of which were drawn from a Fathers Know Best column that I composed) do this.

It may very well be the case that there is an established tradition of condemning contraception both in and outside of marriage, but that does not tell us what the phrase “coniugale commercium” means. The existence of a broad theme does not tell us the meaning of a specific phrase used to express aspects of that theme in a Magisterial document.

Structurally, the argument seems to be something like:

  1. 20th century Magisterial documents use the phrase “coniugale commercium” while condemning contraception.
  2. The passages in these documents that use the phrase “coniugale commercium” must express the totality of any prior Catholic tradition concerning contraception.
  3. There is a prior Catholic tradition that condemns contraception both in an outside of marriage.
  4. Therefore, by using the phrase “coniugale commercium,” 20th century Magisterial documents are condemning contraception both in and outside of marriage.

This argument does not work because the middle premise (line 2) is false. It is not the case that the totality of a prior, broader theme must be what Paul VI is referring to when he uses this phrase.

To the contrary, one cannot take passages from hundreds of years ago that, although on the same general topic, do not use the same language, and insist that they inform the meaning of a single and different phrase in a modern document, contrary to its obvious literal meaning.

I believe firmly in a hermeneutic of continuity, and thus one cannot dismiss a prior, broader tradition as being irrelevant to the modern treatment of contraception. But saying something is relevant to the modern discussion of a broad moral topic is not the same as saying that it must be what was meant by one particular phrase that has an obvious, contrary meaning.

Make no mistake; Latin has a word for “sexual” (i.e., sexualis). If Paul VI had wanted to say “sexual intercourse” in Humanae Vitae then he would have said sexuale commercium.

In fact, he wouldn’t have even needed to say that because the word commercium itself–in context of a sexual discussion–means ”intercourse.” (In broader discussions it can refer to non-sexual exchanges, such as social intercourse or business intercourse, but the context tells us that this is the sexual usage.)

What “coniugale” does is specify the kind of intercourse. Not sexual intercourse in general, but specifically marital intercourse: intercourse in marriage.

This is indicated both by the immediate context of the document itself and by the historical context in which the document arose.

Humanae Vitae is not a general meditation on the subject of contraception–the kind of document that might address both marital and extra-marital sex (as with a manual of moral theology). It is specifically a document intended to offer guidance to married couples. This is established as its subject matter from its opening sentences:

The transmission of human life is a most serious role in which married people collaborate freely and responsibly with God the Creator. It has always been a source of great joy to them, even though it sometimes entails many difficulties and hardships.

The fulfillment of this duty has always posed problems to the conscience of married people, but the recent course of human society and the concomitant changes have provoked new questions. The Church cannot ignore these questions, for they concern matters intimately connected with the life and happiness of human beings.

So the purpose of the document is to answer the “new questions” (created by modern socio-economic factors and the new methods of birth control that had been developed–especially the Pill, which did not seem to violate the physical structure of the marital act, the way condoms do) that Humanae Vitae sets out to answer so that married couples may know how to properly live out their vocation.

And the document did not come out of a vacuum. It was the Pope’s 1968 response to the disastrous 1967 report that had been authored (and then leaked to the press) by the Pontificial Commission on Population, Family, and Birth, which had endorsed contraception between married couples.

The Pontificial Commission had been set up during the reign of John XXIII to deal with an upcoming United Nations population conference, but he died before it met. When Paul VI was elected, he expanded and reworked its membership and mission, tasking it in 1964 with answering three questions:

What is the relationship between the primary and secondary ends of marriage? What are the major responsibilities of married couples? How do rhythm [i.e., the rhythm method] and the pill relate to responsible parenthood? [SOURCE].

The Pontifical Commission was not tasked with writing a general moral treatment of human sexuality. It was tasked specifically with analyzing the situation of married couples and their use of contraception in “responsible [and thus marital] parenthood.”

The Commission accordingly crafted a report which, while it was pro-contraception, was focused on the use of contraception by married couples. It is not a general treatise on human sexuality. (READ IT HERE.) 

When the Commission’s pro-contraception report was leaked to the press it caused an enormous raising of expectations that the Pope would approve the Pill, and to combat this Paul VI wrote his final encyclical, which was released the next year. Humanae Vitae is his public response to the Commission’s report and his effort to deal–as he says–with the new questions that married couples face.

When he then uses the Latin words meaning ”marital intercourse,” we must recognize that this is exactly what he is talking about.

While I as much as anybody would love for Humanae Vitae to settle all questions on the topic of human sexuality, the fact is that it is a document of deliberately limited scope and that its key passage is focused on the use of contraception in relation to marital intercourse.

It is not possible to shoehorn other elements of prior Catholic thought into this passage because this would violate its clear language and force it to answer questions that it is not attempting to address.

As is often the case with the Magisterium, it moves slowly and in a step-wise manner. It doesn’t tend to take on questions without strong reason. The Church already taught that sex outside of marriage is gravely sinful. The mid 20th century had brought about new socio-economic and technological factors that impinged on the question of sexuality within marriage, and this is what both the Pontifical Commission and Humanae Vitae expressly set out to address.

Rather than being a summation of the whole of Catholic thought on sexuality, Humanae Vitae is a document with a sharply limited scope intended to provide moral and pastoral guidance to married couples facing the challenges of the modern world.

There is a lot more that could be said about this (particularly regarding some of the sources Kellmeyer cites), but I hope this provides a basic response to his central argument.

I am also happy to note that he concludes by stating:

So, is the Holy Father’s private theological opinion correct? Is it the case that the use of the condom with the intent to reduce disease transmission less damnable than using the condom without that intention? Probably. Aquinas, whose love for such fine distinctions is precisely what makes him the greatest doctor of the Church, would almost certainly agree that it was.

And that is heartening.

Indeed it is.

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Tim Brandenburg
Up above you has stated that the Pope is always infallible in morals. This is incorrect but I have seen even priests say the same thing online. Here is part of Ludwig Ott's Introduction to Fundamentals of the Catholic Faith...online....end of section 8:
" With regard to the doctrinal teaching of the Church it must be well noted that not all the assertions of the Teaching Authority of the Church on questions of Faith and morals are infallible and consequently irrevocable. Only those are infallible which emanate from General Councils representing the whole episcopate, and the Papal Decisions Ex Cathedra (cf. D 1839). The ordinary and usual form of the Papal teaching activity is not infallible. Further, the decisions of the Roman Congregations (Holy Office, Bible Commission) are not infallible. Nevertheless normally they are to be accepted with an inner assent which is based on the high supernatural authority of the Holy See (assensus internus supernaturalis, assensus religiosus). The so-called "silentium obsequiosum." that is "reverent silence," does not generally suffice. By way of exception, the obligation of inner agreement may cease if a competent expert, after a renewed scientific investigation of all grounds, arrives at the positive conviction that the decision rests on an error."

sorry for the double post.

I'm sorry, my post was incomplete. I meant how is my non-sinful situation different from the sinful married couple using contraception that is less than 100% effective but who are still open to having a baby if one comes along? I understand condoms are only 97% effectice even when used properly. That is still a better percentage than the 0.0% chance my wife and I have of conceiving.
From your post, I believe you are saying the difference is that I have no present intention to contracept but the other couple has a present intention to contracept. How does the 3% error margin come into play, if at all? How does the couple's willingness to have a baby if one comes along come into play?

Try thinking in this way. Couple using condoms intends to lower their fertility to roughly 3% (if condoms are 97% efficient). You do not intend to lower yours for a bit. You have no moral obligation to rise the fertility, if that was advised by your priest.

I'm sorry, my post was incomplete. I meant how is my non-sinful situation different from the sinful married couple using contraception that is less than 100% effective but who are still open to having a baby if one comes along? I understand condoms are only 97% effectice even when used properly. That is still a better percentage than the 0.0% chance my wife and I have of conceiving.
From your post, I believe you are saying the difference is that I have no present intention to contracept but the other couple has a present intention to contracept. How does the 3% error margin come into play, if at all? How does the couple's willingness to have a baby if one comes along come into play?

Tim Brandenburg,
What difference deos it make if artifical contraception is also a mortal sin for unmarried people having sex?
As you have said it yourself, mortal sin of premarital relation makes little difference whether contraception is used or not. But it is one thing to rob the bank, the other to rob the bank murdering people on the way. If for nothing else, it makes confession a little more complex, since person must confess both sins and correct his life on greater scale. Pope's remarks on using condom were not in field of theology, he simply said that prostitute using protection at least has sense of responsibility towards situation regarding AIDS, and from this sense further responsibilities could be learned.
Why is OK for me to have marital relations with my wife when there is virtually no chance of conception as long as we're open to having a baby if that is God's will and not OK for another married couple, who is also open to having a baby if that is God's will, to have marital relations when they have a greater chance of conception?
I don't understand your question. It is ok for couple opened to life to have relations on fertile period. Usually people using NFP are not doing so, to avoid conception.
In your case, body has been changed for reasons you know. Having infertile relations with your lawful wife are fine, since their sterility is not your present will but result of the past acts. Similary as you can drive a car on smaller distances, because tank has been replaced due to accident in the past. Car still serves it's purpose, and did not lose it's nature as a vehicle.

Thank you Bill. Your viewpoint seems compelling, but I'd welcome other points of view (in layman's terms PLEASE), because I'm not set on this by any means. I've used the legal harmonization method to argue exactly opposite positions in two different courts during the same week!
How is everybody else harmonizing the Pope's teaching with Church Tradition? I'm assuming we're all on board with the premise the Pope can't err in teaching on faith and morals (you can argue the Pope is wrong, but frankly I'm just not even going to consider that possbility... otherwise I would have remained a Protestant). Are others who read this blog limiting the recent teaching to unmarried couples where one partner is HIV positive and the purpose is to prevent infection rather than to prevent conception, or are you expanding it to married couples in the same situation? Or, perhaps, have an entirely different take?

Tim,
I think you are correct but others won't. The real answer lies in whether the Vatican in months to come gives soto voce permission to health workers to recommend ideal us of condoms in all HIV situations and thus side with Fr. Martin Rhonheimer's view rather than the lesser evil group. Then such permission will show up in the press. The Vatican still could do nothing at all if they think the harm to doctrine from massive misinterpretation outweighs the saving of lives. The Pope's initial statement looked very limited...but his later saying it applies to females and transexuals is really what seemed to move into the policy arena.

Bill,
I wrote my last post before seeing you had made your post. It looks like my legal analysis would be correct under "double effect". Am I correct?

Something just occurred to me and I'd like to run it by everybody. As an attorney, I work at harmonizing new case law with precedent. One way I can see to harmonize the Pope's teaching with prior teachings is by analogizing killing somebody to use of a condom:
The Church says killing somebody is a bad thing, but it is OK under certain circumstances (i.e. just war, capital punishment). However, it is a mortal sin when we murder somebody. I think that must be because with war the purpose of killing is to stop agression and with capital punishment the purpose of killing is to protect society and make an example for others, while murder is just for the purpose of killing somebody.
Similarly, sex between the two umarried people is already a sin. Adding a condom for the purpose of contraception would be another sin. However, let's say the purpose of the condom was not to prevent conception. Maybe the couple would even love to have a baby. However, one partner is HIV positive and doesn't want to infect his/her partner so they use a condom for that purpose.
The only problem I see with this is this would work for married couples too, and the Church has already taught against condoms and married people.
However, we can distinguish in humanae vitae because it came out before AIDS. When AIDs came into play, the Church clarified the general teaching of in humanae vitae further to account for the situation of a married couple having sex and using a condom for the purpose of preventing infection of the other partner. It's not a reversal, it's just clarification for a situation.
How does that work out with theology? Probably a heresy, but hey... I'm a lawyer... what do you expect *grin*

Tim
I'm back momentarily with scripture for hell's degrees:
Rev 18:6 Render to her as she herself has rendered, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double draught for her in the cup she mixed.
Rev 18:7 As she glorified herself and played the wanton, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning. Since in her heart she says, 'A queen I sit, I am no widow, mourning I shall never see,'
On the condom, google " principle of double effect" which a Pontifical College prof thinks applies here, Fr. Martin Rhonheimer, an Opus Dei priest. Google his Essay written on this for the tablet. The condom is not just a contraceptive for the HIV person but is a medical implement simultaneously which means it may be a neutral action having two separate effects at one time. Must go.

If that is the case and all artifical contraception outside of marriage is a mortal sin, then the Church has an obligation to teach against it. However, it seems the Pope is saying just the opposite... the condom form of contraception under certain limited circumstances (i.e. unmarried couples where one partner is HIV positive and the other isn't) may actually be an indication of a move toward morality (but not a good thing). Since we cannot do evil that good may come of it and the Pope can't be wrong on a teaching of morals, that strongly implies that the condom form of conception under certain limited circumstances is NOT a mortal sin.
Maybe the theologically trained can figure all this out, but from the perspective of a layperson, it seems we have to go with what the Pope says. He is the Vicar of Christ and we must submit, particularly when we don't understand the obvious complexity of the issue (3 souls? twin embryos? c'mon... I'm college educated and have a law degree and that completley lost me... *grin*). However, maybe I'm not getting what the Pope is really saying.
What are the parameters of this condom usage concession? Are they as limited as I see them or are the broader?

Tim
I'll only take your hell question due to obligations here. Hell like heaven has degrees
otherwise a person who ended their life with only one mortal sin would be punished as much as someone who was a serial murderer.

I'm usually just a lurker, but it seems to me the only disputed item here is whether artificial contraception is morally permissible for unmarried people because the Church has clearly taught that artificial conception is not morally permissible for married people.
My first question is this: Sex between unmarried people is a mortal sin (under the right circumstances) and that alone is enough to put the person in Hell. What difference deos it make if artifical contraception is also a mortal sin for unmarried people having sex? Hell is Hell. Isn't that like giving two life sentences without possibility of parole for a combo torture/murder as opposed to one life sentence without parole for a murder without torture?
Also,I'm not clear on the whole "open to contraception" thing. I'm a convert, and before I became Catholic I had a vasectomy. Even though there is no chance for conception (I'm verifiably shooting blanks), my priest said it is OK as long as we are willing to accept a baby if God provides one. Of course we would. Abortion is not even a consideration. My priest also said I have no obligation to have a surgery to try to reverse the vasectomy.
However, condoms and the pill are not 100% effective like my vasectomy. My second question is: Why is OK for me to have marital relations with my wife when there is virtually no chance of conception as long as we're open to having a baby if that is God's will and not OK for another married couple, who is also open to having a baby if that is God's will, to have marital relations when they have a greater chance of conception?

The Chicken,
I was using the word accident in the philosophical sense - being periodically infertile is an accident of the monthly cycle.
Once again, why would infertile period be "accidental" in monthly period? It is not it's uncommmonity, it is regular part of the process. Sleeping is not an accident of the everday life.
If couple is using infertile period on sole basis that conception can't occur, their intercourse is not open to life by intention. This is why Church forbade NFP in the past. It did not teach that couple can have sex only through fertile period, it teached that each and every intercourse must be preformed with desire to beget a child. Including those in infertile period.
I understand your wish to get out from discussion. I myself have similar frights regarding souls who might stumble on this discussion, and have spiritual problems with it. But what is alternative? To be quiet, and forget the questions, because of peace of mind? These things will be asked sooner or later, if not by faithful, then by our nemesis. Actually, they are asked by faithful for decades.
I wish God's blessings to each and every one of us.

ps
You must know of the Chimeric rare person who is the result of two fraternal twin fertilized eggs merging into one cell mass and becoming one person. Immediate ensoulment would prevent it from ever happening since two souls can't be in one person.

Masked Chicken
If you read some day the entire article, she reviews in survey form the disparate positions within Catholicism as to the world of theology journals and it is there that the geneticists lean toward quick ensoulement and embryology oriented people toward delay. For me the twinning problem is totally cogent against early ensoulement....Augustine " in each body the whole soul is in the whole body, and in each part is entire"....Aquinas. " it must necssarily be in the whole body, and in each part thereof."

I don't know what to say. I read the article you provided. She completely ignores the idea of teleology in favor of a process theory of development, which, in my opinion, is of questionable philosophical value, since her process theory is based on a mere partial understanding of a very complex process. She seems to be picking and choosing the parts that agree with her theory and ignoring the rest. The idea of a pre-embryo is a cute idea - it fits in nicely with the Protestant idea that what happens immediately after conception is nothing but masses of cells and can be easily aborted. This is not, as far as I know, a Catholic interpretation of the data. Her arguments do not seem like a search for truth, but the defending of an agenda.
This is my take on the idea of a pre-embryo and I am glad that this is, as far as I know, the consensus. I refer you to this web site which includes the following:
In 1979, Clifford Grobstein, a frog embryologist, coined the word "pre-embryo."1 He subsequently admitted that the word was conceived in order to reduce the "status" of the early human embryo, whom he declared to be a "pre-person."2 He held that since identical twins may occur up to fourteen days after fertilization, only a "genetic individual" is present, not a "developmental individual", and that therefore an embryo, a "person", is not present.3 This notion of a "pre-embryo" was also supported in 1979 by the bioethics writings of Jesuit theologian, Richard McCormick, in his work with the Ethics Advisory Board to the United States Department of Health, Education and Welfare.4
"The terms 'pre-embryo' and 'individuality' have been totally discredited, not only by all Human Embryologists, but have also been rejected by the Nomenclature Committee of the American Association of Anatomists for inclusion in the official lexicon of Anatomical Terminology, Terminologia Embryologica. These terms are not used in any official text book of Human Embryology."5 They are also not used in the Carnegie Stages of Human Early Development. The scientific evidence indicates that from the moment when the sperm makes contact with the oocyte (ovum), human development is an integrated continuum in which one stage follows another throughout all of life until death, and therefore that the developing human being is both a 'genetic' and a 'developmental' individual from the first moment of its existence.
My reading list approach was not meant to be insulting and it was not an approach. You made the statement:
...based on inconclusive and geneticist science only while neglecting embryology
If, as I understand this, this is attempting to say that the results of genetics and embryology give fundamentally different results for determining life issues, then this is simply wrong. They are simply two different ways of looking at the same process - one from a molecular level and one from a structural level. They cannot, ultimately, contradict each other (once the science has been refined in both of them and we are very far from this).
My background in science is in quantum and statistical mechanics. Part of my study and current research has been in pattern formation in neural systems, so I know something about morphogenesis, the formation of large-scale patterns from small objects. Reaction-diffusion equations have been used since the 1950's to model such things as how zebras get their stripes to pattern generation from DNA to how visual patterns are formed. My point was to provide a rebuttal to the notion that geneticists and embryologists are at odds with each other over how structure forms in the embryo. They are not and I simply referred to some well-known if early literature to support my point. If I came off as either condescending or insulting, I apologize. It was not my intention. My suggestion was not meant to sound like, "Here, read these and be enlightened," but rather, "Read these to see what I am talking about." The books prove, rather convincingly that DNA (along with other processes) can give rise to the same structures that embryologists see, so there cannot really be a difference in the truth between them. There are way too many other articles to prove this. I cannot see that pitting the two branches of science against each other is going to get anywhere.
Aquinas's three soul idea does not make each soul different, but three stages in a process, the teleology of which is the same - to become human. The nutritive soul has the same teleology as the sensitive and the rational soul.
The paragraph on Grobstein also states,
He held that since identical twins may occur up to fourteen days after fertilization
Notice the hedge - may occur up to fourteen days. Twinning can occur much sooner.
Again, this seems to me to be supporting an agenda, not doing science.
To Sash Milton:
You wrote:
How can you say that NFP is accidental? The unfertile period of a woman is not an accident, it is a part of nature.
I was using the word accident in the philosophical sense - being periodically infertile is an accident of the monthly cycle. If that date occurs on November first and one has sex on that date, it doesn't matter whether one is trying to conceive or not. The process is null, regardless if one is trying to conceive or avoid conceiving. It is not contraception, at least not material contraception, because there is no material to contracept. There is no egg. This is not deliberately frustrating conception because in order to frustrate something, it must first be possible to do what one is attempting.
If one has sex on that day without paying attention to whether or not it were a fertile day, the end result will be the same - no conception. We would not call that frustrated sex, since no one happened to be paying attention to the day. There is no blocking of sperm and egg. There is no egg, regardless of the intention. If I intend to kill you and draw my shoe off to fire it like a gun, it matters not whether I want to kill you or not. You simply cannot get killed that way.
If the couple decides to have sex on a day they cannot get pregnant, it doesn't matter whether or not they want to have a baby on that day or not have a baby on that day. They simply can't. One cannot give what one does not have. One cannot contracept something that isn't there to contracept. NFP simply uses this period to have sex. The Church has never ever said that one may only have sex during the fertile period, so it has never said that NFP is really wrong, since to do so would preclude having sex only during the infertile period, which may happen purely by accident of time management, anyway, as in the case of a husband whose job causes him to travel and he just happens to be home during the infertile periods.
I hate to back out of a good intellectual fight, but I have had to go to confession once this week because of my comments in this particular article of Jimmy's and I while am sure I have posted enough things in this post to be arguing for a week, I am bowing out of the discussion, however, for the good of my soul. I am afraid that these back and forth points and counterpoints do nothing but sow doubt and confusion among innocent people who happen to stumble on this site and I don't want to be a part of that. My comments in this post may be feeding that doubt and confusion, but I thought I should say something in response to my earlier post.
This is Jimmy's blog and I am content to let him deal with any confusion that may have resulted from the heated discussions in this combox for this article. This is his vocation. I try to add what light I can, but there is more heat than light being generated now and I think it wise to bow out of this. My apologies to anyone I may have offended in my comments. It was not my intention.
The Chicken

Here's the easy version from same reply but at the beginning:
" Reply to Objection 2. ..... Consequently it must be said that the soul is in the embryo; the nutritive soul from the beginning, then the sensitive, lastly the intellectual soul.". St. Thomas Aquinas ST

Chicken
Summa Theologica Part I Question 118, article 2, reply to objection 2 in case you are going daft trying to find it....he saw the nutritive soul arriving first then incorporated into the sensitive soul which is later incorporated into the last arriving rational soul so that there is always only one soul but the rational arriving last which may be the reason Trent's catechism on the Incarnation held for immediate ensoulement only in Christ.
" We must therefore say that since the generation of one thing is the corruption of another, it follows of necessity that both in men and in other animals, when a more perfect form supervenes the previous form is corrupted: yet so that the supervening form contains the perfection of the previous form, and something in addition. It is in this way that through many generations and corruptions we arrive at the ultimate substantial form, both in man and other animals. This indeed is apparent to the senses in animals generated from putrefaction. We conclude therefore that the intellectual soul is created by God at the end of human generation, and this soul is at the same time sensitive and nutritive, the pre-existing forms being corrupted."
Some as my link showed still hold for his late arrival of the intellectual soul (this area does not fall under infallibilty). It, delayed ensoulement, also serves to mollify an awful possibility in the God commanded stoning of the adultress which was supposed to be done quickly first by the witnesses with the community then joining. What if the couple had been in a remote house for some days such that there was a preembryo within her and then the witnesses discover them and stone her? They are more likely stoning a person within her too in the immediate ensoulment scenario....but not as likely in the delayed ensoulment scenario....but it is still possible in both.

Bill912,
Please don't do that. I really want to have a decent, Catholic discussion with fellow faithful.

"Otherwise, we are all modernists who want Church to be something that it isn't."
An example of inadvertantly swerving into the truth while looking into a mirror.

Inocencio
Please describe what kind of the context you think objective reader will see from your link? It is very obvious what Augustine teached. He claimed "only marriage is an excuse for such intercourse" (sexual) and "This proves that you approve of having a wife, not for the procreation of children, but for the gratification of passion." He attacks the heretics defending his theory that sex is only for procreation. This is additionally covered elsewhere in his work, when he claims original sin is transfered from parents to children because of sex, and that apostle Paul allowed marriage because good things don't need allowance (marriage is wrong because it involves sex). Not to mention his idea that sex in marriage is always at least venial sin, if not done purely for procreation.
I do not believe I know Augustine better then Church. Such rhetorical maneuvers only show that you do not believe in your own arguments, and need to put extra weight by accusing me of boasting. How on Earth could anybody do anything better then Holy Spirit's own people? But if the Church Fathers, during centuries, teached that sex is only for procreation, then no authority is capable of changing their thoughts. They can call them wrong, but can't say they thought something else.
Those who accept these teachings as objective fact, live the Church. Otherwise, we are all modernists who want Church to be something that it isn't.

Inocencio
Lol.....define "followed your link". And if you say "read" in answer, define "read"....distinguishing among skim...speed read...reading proper.

bill bannon,
I followed your link have you read these documents?
INSTRUCTION DIGNITAS PERSONAE ON CERTAIN BIOETHICAL QUESTIONS
INSTRUCTION ON RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE IN ITS ORIGIN AND ON THE DIGNITY OF PROCREATION REPLIES TO CERTAIN QUESTIONS OF THE DAY
Sash Milthon,
Both extracts are from his epistulas against Manichaeans and Donatists.

Yes...that is why I provided the link so the context would be easy for anyone, well almost anyone, to see.
Your quotation of St. Augustine, out of context, is the one of the few times you have provided documentation and I had to provide a link to the entire text so it could be read in context. You seem to honestly believe you know better than the Church the teachings of the Church. You consistently say that popes, fathers of the Church and saints are wrong in their teaching. You do not have that authority and that seems to be the crux.
I accept the authority and the teaching of the Church and you do not. Please understand that I did not comment on this post to convince you of anything. I leave you to your itchy ears and speculations.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Also, let us not forget the logic of original tradition: The only reason for sexual act is conception, thus having relations on days when it is impossible-because it is impossible- is making -1:1 relations to the act.

Masked Chicken,
How can you say that NFP is accidental? The unfertile period of a woman is not an accident, it is a part of nature. NFP's system is based on the idea that sperm will be destroyed because it has no egg to fertilize. Those who use NFP, use it with exclusive wish to destroy semen. The only way how this system is "open to life" is in case that it fails to predict when egg will come. In other words, fertilization is ACCIDENT in case of NFP, not contraception.

Innocencio,
When Augustine wrote...
"But there is no marriage where motherhood is not in view; therefore neither is there a wife. In this way you forbid marriage."
He wrote it three sentences after...
"Is it not you who used to counsel us to observe as much as possible the time when a woman, after her purification, is most likely to conceive, and to abstain from cohabitation at that time, lest the soul should be entangled in flesh? This proves that you approve of having a wife, not for the procreation of children, but for the gratification of passion."
Both extracts are from his epistulas against Manichaeans and Donatists.
Now, can you please stop accusing Bill for making claims about things popes "didn't say", and me for reading pope's minds? None of this accusations are holding ground. As a matter of fact, you have to prove that popes of Medieval times didn't find NFP as contraception (I challenge you to do it). Otherwise, we could charge you with the same accusation (of reading Pope's minds). But that is not what Church is all about.
My experience is that people who talk about Humanae Vitae don't know about Church Father's stance on sex as purely procreational activity.

Chicken
Where are the Aquinas quotes on the rational soul preceded by the two other souls?
I was born at night but not last night. And stop with the reading list technique of debate or I'll send you here:
http://www.ts.mu.edu/content/54/54.1/54.1.6.pdf

Afraid to put my toe in, again, but, a few points...
It certainly can't be used to prove current stand on the issue, since NFP is clearly as contraception as condom using this logic.
No, it is not. NFP is accidental contraception; using a condom is deliberate contraception. One may make use of an accident, morally, but not a deliberate evil. Contraception means, literally, against conception (or against the beginning). In order for there to be contraception, there must be the possibility of conception. If conception is the number 1, contraception via condom would be -1. They negate each other, logically. NFP would be a zero. It does not alter the value of 1. It does not negate it because conception is not possible so there is nothing to oppose or be contra to.
The Catholic problem is going beyond your own bedroom and calling other people worldwide... murderers...based on inconclusive and geneticist science only while neglecting embryology and its problems with 60% preembryo failure rates in nature, totipotentiality of cells until an embryonic axis appears and the cell mass dividing at c.14 days into 2 entities becoming identical twins.
Genetics and embryology cannot, ultimately contradict each other. As to the twin problem, I see no reason why there can't be one soul in the original embryo and another one added when the cell twins. There is no problem with twins. Neither is there a problem with totipotent cells, because the existence of a soul does not depend on the types of cells, but on the potential of the cells as an organism. This is pure Aristotelian and Aquinian thinking via hylomorphism. Aquinas defined the soul as:
"the first principal of life in those things in our world which live."
Totipotent cells are HUMAN cells. If one has to wait until the human is fully developed firthe addition of a soul, then kids could be killed until puberty by that logic, since they are not fully developed. It takes form and matter to make a human. You seem to want to split this unity into embryologists (form) and matter (geneticists). That does a disservice to the unity of the science of biology.
I suggest two books to read:
D'Arcy Thompson, On Growth and Form, who pretty much started the modern science of morphogenesis
and
Rene Thom, Structural Stability and Morphogenesis
Towards the end of his life, Thom (a Fields Medal winning mathematician) came to hold the Aristotelian view of morphogeneis in the cell. His theory, more than any, is the modern mathematical basis for embryology.
The Chicken

Sash Milthon,
Thesaurus was thus published most certainly by Church infrastructure, and no resistance was found.

Then numerous sources of documentation should be readily available so I can read them for myself what was actually written minus any later editions. Also please include the documentation that definitely shows that it was written by the future pope. Since you admitted you cannot produce any documentation and you opinion is merely based on speculation please stop saying the same thing over and over again it will not make it true.
You may accept that you can read the mind of past popes but I do not accpet that. All you have done is speculate what you want to be true. My experience has been that people who have difficulty with the Church's teaching contraception claim it is a theological problem but refuse to recognize it is a moral problem for them.
I wish you a joyful Advent of soul searching.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

bill bannon,
I already stated I accept God is the Lord of Life. It seems you do not.
I would recommend that you not base your faith or understanding on what popes have not said but on what has been clearly and repeatedly stated.
Since you keep referring John Noonan Jr.'s book I will ask you are you saying he was wrong when he stated:
"The teachers of the Church have taught without hesitation or variation that certain acts preventing procreation are gravely sinful. No Catholic theologian has ever taught, 'Contraception was a good act.' The teaching on contraception is clear and apparently fixed forever."

Also since you mentioned him above, have you read Dietrich von Hildbrand's LOVE, MARRIAGE And the Catholic Conscience? If not I would humbly suggest you should. I am happily rereading it because of this discussion.
St. Augustine, like the Apostle Paul he is referring to the forbiding of "marriage in the proper sense" namely attempting to seperate the procreative from the unitive.
He makes that clear and shows the constant teaching of the Church when he states:
But there is no marriage where motherhood is not in view; therefore neither is there a wife. In this way you forbid marriage.

This is the same situation we are faced with today. Namely "catholics" trying to seperate the unitive from the procreative. What God has joined together let no man tear asunder.
Lord, Have mercy on both our souls.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Innocencio,
I have acknowledged that, if Pope John XXI wrote Thesaurus, he wrote it during his duty as official doctor of previous pontiff. Thesaurus was thus published most certainly by Church infrastructure, and no resistance was found. The fact that he wrote it during the previous papacy only shows that his predecessors didn't mind his stances. Also, after taking the position, John XXI did not stop Thesaurus from spreading. Is this a document? No. Does it matter? No. How Church acted is important.
If the story above is true, your opinion is as good as mine. The fact is outside of our personal goals or wishes. We could both think the same, that wouldn't change the fact that John XXI was the pope who allowed contraception. And actually encouraged use.
Pope Gregory IX, if he based his decretes on writings of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas (Jerome? Pope Gregory the Great? Justin Martyr?), forbid contraception on the ground that sex is only for procreation. As such, his work can be used as an argument only on shaky grounds. It certainly can't be used to prove current stand on the issue, since NFP is clearly as contraception as condom using this logic.
Every theologian and pope which held the same opinion on the nature of the sexual act, condemns NFP, as bishop of Hippo.
Happy Advent time to every soul searching the truth. And those who found the truth.

Inocencio
So you and your scientific sources must conclude that 60% of humans in the universe never live past pre implantation. Limbo must be a mob scene. Most of humanity is there by your science.
    We know about the other 259 Popes because of the process from 1853 onward as the beginning of the natural methods being approved and the uproar from clergy against it being anything more than a lesser evil for onanists.  The premier moral theologian, Arthur Vermeesch, who helped in the writing of Casti Connubii, 1930, later in 1934 still recommended it as a lesser evil not as a good and said that Pius IX did not approve of these methods but only meant using the time after menopause.  The local Bishops Council of Malines in 1937 still 7 years after Casti Connubii declared that the natural methods would lead to abortions when it failed and that it was only again a lesser evil for habitual onanists.  The whole story of that period is found in chapter 14 of Noonan's " Contraception" which you yourself quoted above.  As late as 1942 an author from the Catholic University of America was rejected by most of his peers for saying the Church saw the natural methods as licit and not as a lesser evil.  Permission first came in 1853 and 1880 from the Vatican to use the natural methods but most clergy interpreted those permissions as being the permission of a lesser evil.  So Pius XI was the first Pope to permit the infertile time and the moral theologian who helped him write CC later said Pius meant menopause.  All of that tells you that the other 259 Popes would not have taught it in that climate that the natural methods were a good. Augustine's dispargement of them reigned supreme until Pius XII for the majority.

Bill912,
I am having a very busy and blessed Advent, thank you!
You remain are in my prayers please keep me in yours.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

bill bannon,
"None and only 6 who taught the natural methods were good. 259 Popes would have refused to teach the natural methods.

I make the same request of you, please document where 259 popes refused to teach natural methods which is the tradition of the Church or stop saying it.
God is Author of life. He can give it or take it. I accept His way are as far above mine as the heavens are above the earth, do you?
Bioethicist Fr. Joseph Howard made clear in a lecture that I attended that at the moment of conception we have an actual person not a potential person. If you google his name you can read to your hearts delight his understanding which based on reason and faith. Or you can contact him through his website here.
The article below is from his website JohnPaulbioethics.org.
Food for thought...The Moment When New Individual Human Life Begins
- C. Ward Kischer, Ph.D. and Dianne N. Irving, Ph.D.
Excerpt:
The point of initiation, that is, the moment of the beginning of the new individual human life, is first contact between the plasma membrane of the sperm and the plasma membrane of the oocyte, as documented in Carnegie Stage 1. Biologically, then, first contact is the event from which all else will follow. There is no point beyond that at which development is suspended or held in abeyance. The formation of the zygote cannot be the point of the new individual human life because the zygote would not have formed unless first contact had first been made. Therefore, the first cell of human life is the penetrated oocyte, which is formed by first contact of the oocyte by the sperm. The second cell to be formed is the ootid, which contains the male and female pronuclei. The third cell to be formed is the zygote, which occurs after syngamy. This is in accord with the Carnegie Stages of Human Embryology.

Actually judging murder as the deliberate taking of innocent human life is good and just. Please count me happily among the non literates of the smaller Church that PBXVI has commented about.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Inocencio
You wrote:
" Can you document any popes who taught contraception as good?"
Answer:
None and only 6 who taught the natural methods were good. 259 Popes would have refused to teach the natural methods.
Use NFP....that is not the problem. The Catholic problem is going beyond your own bedroom and calling other people worldwide... murderers...based on inconclusive and geneticist science only while neglecting embryology and its problems with 60% preembryo failure rates in nature, totipotentiality of cells until an embryonic axis appears
and the cell mass dividing at c.14 days into 2 entities becoming identical twins.
Using NFP is good......the bonus of calling other people murderers based on one sided science is a stupid evil that may have turned millions of very literate people away from the Church. The non literates and fleeing Protestants will keep the figures up but Benedict has expressed dark doubts on the 1.2 billion figure.
NFP is good. The ego bonus attached to it of judging the world as murderers is evil.

"Just because you want/need it to be true doesn't make it so."
Amen, Inocencio. I hope you're having a blessed Advent.

bill bannon,
It was a tradition of the Church not theologians. As for people, Catholic and not, having a poor understanding of Church teaching that will always be the case. Are sinful people part of the Church...Yes, always have been always will be. As for the Church avoiding subjects because of bad press please be serious. No matter what the Pope says it gets bad press or purposely taken out of context to further an agenda. As this topic shows there may be shortage of vocations to the priesthood but none to the papacy.
That is why I don't give a lot of weight to personal opinions. Can you document any popes who taught contraception was good? If you can please cite the source so I can read it.
As for ensoulement I stand by my understanding and will respect Jimmy's rules about going to far off topic.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Inocencio,
The problem in this area can be seen in footnote 4 of Humanae Vitae where Pope Paul VI references the tradition he has just refered to behind his concept. The footnote is long and lists sources who are entirely modern except for the first item, The Trent Catechism, 1566. After that first item, the entire list postdates 1880 because he wanted to use Popes and it was really a tradition of theologians....Augustine being key as Fr. Hardon has noted....along with Jerome and later Aquinas all three of whom saw sex as primarily...primarily concupiscence which marriage and procreation tamed and justified.
John Noonan Jr. noted that the sex act was not linked to loving someone in a Church document til Casti C. in 1930....and that is thanks to the layman, Diertrich von Hildebrand. But that over emphasis on sex as concupiscence and not as love is why 28 Popes could countenance and cooperate with 300 years worth of boys being castrated for singing purposes. If sex is primarily negative, castrating boys is ok.
He did not list as tradition Pope Gregory who also said couples should atone for the
pleasure they had in sex nor did he list Sixtus V who excommunicated couples for
contraception ( rescinded by his successor) and yet Sixtus V initiated the castrati in the
papal choirs and executed thousands of criminals in Rome. Both men, had they been put on the list of footnote four, would have given the press an opportunity for displaying
the bizarre nature of the Church's past on the topic. But it was not just the Church. Western culture was negative on sex with Leonardo da Vinci calling sex "the beast with two backs"....and he was a layman.... as was de Sade later who too saw sex as unconnected to love.
On the preembryo, you are solving the quandary in a hurry by creating your own cell division facts....good luck with that. 60% of preembryos do not survive the journey to implantation in nature. Are those all souls? Tiny humans? Did Christ come to save 40% of human beings and the rest are in Limbo?
The great theologians of the past century simply stepped back and said there is way too many questions. If there were not, Popes would be on cspan explaining everything and taking all questions. They are not.

Sash Milton,
You already acknowledged that whoever wrote Thesaurus Pauperum did so before Pope John XXI's pontificate.
Please admit you cannot produce documentation that Pope John XXI allowed contraception or stop saying that he did. Just because you want/need it to be true doesn't make it so.
The Decretals of Pope Gregroy IX make clear the stance of the Church. If you can produce documentation otherwise I would very much like to read it myself. I don't give a lot of weight to my personal opinion or yours.
Lord, Have mercy on both our souls.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Bill,
Yes, I know that old "Our Seneca" writing. It seems that Church Fathers liked pagan philosophers too much to take them what they were. They utterly wanted to make these people Christians, since they favoured their writing so much. Clement of Alexandria and Justin Martyr went so far to say that philosophy was to Greeks what Law was for Israelis- the path to salvation. Problems are that, aside the love for wit and wisdom, Greeks were pagans and acted as pagans.
Innocencio,
If Thesaurus Pauperum was indeed writen by the Pope (as most-but not all- historians agree) then allowance is objective. One should note that, when detecting the stance of Church towards contraception, people usually quote statements of theologians (and usually fail to deliver the right context). Now why would a quote of Augustine be more important then quote of John XXI? Why is first an official stance in the past, and second a footnote in the History?
As for infallibility of the Ordinary magisterium, I repeat once again my question. Is this body teaching that Christians of the past forbade contraception on any other ground then stoic obsession that sex can only be practiced for procreational purposes? If this is so, they are teaching a historical error, thus a moral one as well- very well seen in case of Natural Family Planning. And if bishops of the past forbade NFP, then you don't have the terms to proclaim doctrine infallible, since the requirements for such title don't exist (There is no consensus of the bishops on the matter). Add the fact that in present day Canadian bishops refused to draw their documented dissent on Humanae Vitae (winnipeg Statement) and did that two times (last one in 1998!).

Bill Bannon,
I have never read John Noonan Jr. book only a reference to it in Sex and the Marriage Covenant by John F. Kippley.
This was the quotation from John Noonan's book:
"The teachers of the Church have taught without hesitation or variation that certain acts preventing procreation are gravely sinful. No Catholic theologian has ever taught, 'Contraception was a good act.' The teaching on contraception is clear and apparently fixed forever."

Have you personally come across any papal statements contrary to Gregory IX, Sixtus V, Pius XI, Paul VI about contraception?
As for ensoulement I base my understanding on the fact that from the moment of her conception the Blessed Mother was free from Original Sin and the fact that if a single human cell is living it must have a soul or two if it is twins.
Sash Milthon,
"This does not change that Pope John XXI was allowing contraception"

May I please see the documentaion of any statement that Pope John XXI made allowing contraception during his eight-month pontificate.
This article is more food for thought, CONTRACEPTION AND THE INFALLIBILITY OF
THE ORDINARY MAGISTERIUM - JOHN C. FORD, S.J. & GERMAIN GRISEZ
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Sash
You are correct on blanket denunciation of the pagan approach being too brief at minimum. Here is Saint Jerome in Book I of "Against Jovinianus" section 49, line one....stating his dependence on their views:
" 49. Aristotle and Plutarch and our Seneca have written treatises on matrimony, out of which we have already made some extracts and now add a few more...".
Online at new advent...see whole section. Note how he calls the Stoic Seneca..."our Seneca". This is very odd when one realizes that Seneca actually believed like other Stoics in the right of a father to execute...kill....his children up to the age of about 14....pater potestas.

Bishop Cesare's denial of stoic tradition is noteworthy. For example, when he writes "In succeeding decades, Justin the Martyr, Origen, Lactanicus, St. Ephrem, Epiphanus, Ambrose, John Chrysostom and Augustine repeated the Church's stand on contraception. It was wrong because it imitated the malpractice of the pagans, it placed carnal pleasure before the love that wants children . This is simply not true. Most, if not all of these theologians have actually accepted the pagan stoic theory of sexulity as purely procreative act. To have relations for any other reason then begetting was against the natural law. Love of the spouses was secondary in the act. You could love a woman without sexual relation. This is backed up by their concrete approach to NFP. To repeat, once again, St. Augustine: Is it not you (Manichaenas) who used to counsel us to observe as much as possible the time when a woman, after her purification, is most likely to conceive, and to abstain from cohabitation at that time? From this it follows that you consider marriage is not to procreate children, but to satiate lust."
Isn't it ironic that Casti Conubii mentions so much Augustine, but utterly fears to get him in full perspective?
Why did situation change in 20th Century? I actually don't believe it was the secular pressure. Much more likely Catholic Church didn't have the theological infrastructure to face the reality of it's teaching in the past. When people required guidance regarding sexual matters, Church realized they can't share the knowledge. It was too much even for radical conservatives to hold the ground that sexuality is only for procreation. Could one imagine what would happen if we kept the "original" tradition? We would probably be Amishes by now, both by influence and position as religion.
On the other side... could we choose? If something was taught, what is to be done? Boycott it in encyclicals and call all thing "unbroken"? Really, what is Ordinary Magisterium's stance on past? That Church did not teach stoicism? That would be the denial of faith. They are avoiding this hot potato for decades. And each day more and more people are questioning them regarding this matter.
One other thing. This teaching clearly showed something was wrong with the hierarchy. People who listened them during those centuries destroyed their marital life. And religious one as well.
Regarding Pope Gregory IX, the pope who claimed heresy can be seen by vast number of cats in the town, I affirm his stance. The question of contraception became hot once again during his reign, and he captured the tradition of Early Medieval times which generally followed the idea of sex as purely procreational thing. This does not change that Pope John XXI was allowing contraception, or whatever Dominican monk brought Thesaurus to Catholic universities. (I acknowledged that there are disputes about authorship in few posts before- but the success of the book shows at least possibility of Church approval).
All this, of course, doesn't mean contraception should be allowed. But it is evident that truth is much more then mainstream is willing to share with flock.

Inocencio,
John Noonan Jr., a Federal Judge and Catholic history of ethics author could only find two Popes prior to modern times who wrote anything albeit little on contraception....your Gregory and Sixtus V...ironically the Pope who brought the castrati into the papal choirs. Have you personally come across any others.
Your refernce above to homocide is repeated in the Catechism of Trent but with a contradiction....it is mentioned as to the 5th commandment vis a vis contraception but the section on the Incarnation in the same catechism says that ensoulement in man is delayed but was not delayed in the case of Christ. Aquinas held for delayed ensoulement. So in one catechism, one finds two different views. In the Theological
Studies periodical during the 1980's, Catholics debated the two views. Geneticist
schooled authors saw immediate personhood in the fertilized egg due to the matter of
the cell being human; while embryology schooled authors said the cell mass may divide
into identical twins around day 14 precluding an individual existing prior to then and that
in general, there could be no individual as long as the cells remain totipotential to
becoming this member or organ rather than that member or organ. Abortion as an act
is now infallibly condemned in Evangelium Vitae which had polled all bishops of the
world who all agreed....but as one theologian noted, the front end of abortion...the earliest day...is not infallibly defined because they did not agree on that....the initial
copies of EV italisized what they agreed on but the italics have now vanished in the
online Vatican version. Is it day one....or is it 14 days...or otherwise. This is why we need a funded think tank at Rome that only works on such problems because this one is science related. Now it is left to whether this University prof or that one cares to write on the topic in a journal. A one time half dollar tax on all Catholics would fund it forever.

Some food for thought...
For a nice overview of the church's teaching about condoms this is very helpful especially the section about the history of the Church's teaching on contraception.
AIDS AND CONDOMS THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH - BISHOP CESARE BONIVENTO PIME
Excerpt:
One document out of many is worth noting because it is so concise and states in clearly distinct terms what has always been the Church’s mind. The Decretals of Pope Gregory IX (1148-1241) are a summary of the Church’s legislation in the lifetime of Thomas Aquinas. Like the Summa Theologica, the Decretals summarize the Church’s whole moral tradition.
Three things are especially significant about the decree on contraception.
• It unambiguously identifies contraception with any action taken to prevent generation, conception, or birth.
• It distinguishes between taking a drug out of lust (instead of abstaining from intercourse) and taking a drug for hostile motives.
• It calls all of these actions homicidal, in the technical sense of intending to destroy life at any stage of the vital process.

The Decretals of Pope Gregroy IX are from the same time period as the "Thesaurus Pauperum".
This article about the identity of Peter of Spain is very interesting.
This ebook about Gilbert of England states that some historians hold that "Thesaurus Pauperum" was written by the father of Peter of Spain.
Excerpt:
In the first place then we must say that, as Gilbert is frequently quoted in the "Thesaurus Pauperum," a work ascribed to Petrus Hispanus, who (under the title Pope John XXI) died in 1277, this date determines definitely the latest period to which the Compendium can be referred. If, as held by some historians, the
'Thesaurus" is the work of Julian, the father of Petrus, the Compendium can be referred to an earlier date only.

Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Bill,
I will, if you said so. I hope this is not really adieu.

Sash
Read the whole castrati story in your public library in a major encyclopedia....not snippets from the internet. Adieu.

Bill,
Yes, I am aware that there are theories about "Thesaurus" being written by somebody else. I don't know what foundation is used to back up these claims. New Advent mentions a name in the footnote, if I remember correctly.
While it is not the popular view, one should at least consider the possibility that certain spheres of theology vanished from everyday practice here and there in history. During the papacy of John XXI, Church didn't care that much about contraception. It was one of many prohibitions caused by scruples of the age. Thomas Aquinas probably wouldn't touch the subject, if it weren't for Augustine's writings. In such state, it was possible for Pope to write such book, simply because issue was not "hot". You have similar situation in Easter Europe regarding blood sausages. This food, deeply rooted and connected to various festivals, was forbidden by the Church hundred years ago. Today even bishops eat them. If they would start scrupulous theological analysis, they would either forbid them, or say that they were wrong all the time.
As for castrati, I am aware of the practice. One has to confess: Church was always against castration. Clergy simply gave jobs to singers who were castrated "by acccident". There was never Church institution which was systematically mutilating children. But they knew the nature of "accidents" and did not protest.

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