. . . where the MSM has been getting it wrong.
Despite numerous secular press reports yesterday, the new Chinese bishops have not been declared excommuicate by the Holy See (EXCERPTS):
The threat of excommunication hangs over two Chinese bishops ordained without papal approval, but only if they acted knowingly and freely, said a canon lawyer.
And even if they incurred excommunication automatically by acting of their own free will, the penalty is limited until Pope Benedict XVI publicly declares their excommunication to the bishops and their faithful, said Jesuit Father James Conn, a professor of canon law at Rome’s Pontifical Gregorian University.
Excommunication "may have been incurred, but we do not know that because we do not know their consciences or the external factors involved," Father Conn said.
If they were automatically excommunicated, they immediately are forbidden to celebrate the sacraments, receive the sacraments or perform the functions of a bishop unless the good of souls requires them to do so, he said.
Father Conn said the penalty is formal and more extensive once it is publicly declared by the pope, the only person in the church with the authority to impose penal sanctions on a bishop.
Public notification is not simply a formality, he said, but it is "for the good of the people of God," who have a right to know when a minister is celebrating the sacraments illicitly.
"There cannot be just a vague declaration because the good of souls is at stake," Father Conn said.
They are automatically excommunicated. Are you soft on them Jimmy? If we are gonna let the Communist Church slide we do a diservice to 10 million underground, We also need to apoligize to Bishop Lefevbre and the SSPX. It there should be a clear excommunication prounced and discussions stopped with Red China ( and I didnt say that buy mistake) We , as The Church seem to compromise and ecumenixe to our own demise in favor of political correctness. Most of the Caaaaatholic Press as said it is aotmatic. To quote Yul Brynner in “The Ten Commandments”..So Let it be written..So let it be done.
Better, Jimmy, the MSM is catching up with certain Catholic bloggers posts from the last few days. eg., http://www.canonlaw.info/2006/05/communist-ordinations-another-issue.html
btw, Mark, how does it feel to make such an erroneous assertion with such confident self-assurance?
Of course they’re not excommunicated. Only real Catholics like Abp. Lefebvre get “excommunicated” these days.
I enjoyed an editorial by a mainland mouthpiece titled something like “The Vatican Should Stop Interfering with Beijing-Vatican Diplomacy”.
Such a bold display of double think. Like Mark and IG here.
I hope you guys actually read the post because it would show the new bishops are to be excommunicated by exactly the same standard Lefebvre was: the concious act of defiant disobedience.
If you are uncomfortable with those the excommunicated keep as company, that is your fault for fawning after them.
“btw, Mark, how does it feel to make such an erroneous assertion with such confident self-assurance?” -Ed Peters
“If you are uncomfortable with those the excommunicated keep as company, that is your fault for fawning after them.”- StubbleSpark
“btw, Mark, how does it feel to make such an erroneous assertion with such confident self-assurance?” – Ed
Code of Canon Law 1382 is pretty clear..no room for mis interpretation or wiggle. That gives me the assurance!
Compromising with China or her false Bishops does a diservice to the Faithful and to those you have died a martyrdom for Christ and The Church. Jimmy’s Jesuit quote seems to infer that maybe there is an excuse for this charade. If that is the path you want fine. Compromise again. The Shepherd says its ok..take a few sheep..I will let you. The Wolf says OK. Then the Shepherd looks and NO SHEEP. I thought the Shepherd was suppose to lay down his life for the sheep. So much for the Words of Jesus.
As far as the SSPX goes. I am not SSPX but if the Church continues to compromise on a daily Basis..it maybe the last refuge for Catholic teaching. If these go unpunished, then an apology id do to the SSPX and the Faithful. As I have said before We need a Pope not a manager.
Mark-
As much as this may disappoint you, it is the Pope, not you, who has the authority to declare these bishops excommunicated or not, and what he binds on Earth will be bound in Heaven.
The SSPX seems clearly to be a very different matter, qualitatively.
Lefebvre can not claim to have acted out of fear for his life, or the lives of others, or the very real prospect of imprisonment and torture. He acted in full and conscious disobedience to the Holy see, because he thought he knew better.
The decisions of the Chinese bishops are much more likely to have been mitigated by ouside factors, though direct knowledge of the situation is hard to come by (another reason for not acting in haste – we just don’t have enough information).
mark: you either did not read the link i gave above (which is your fault), or it is beyond your ability to understand it (which is not your fault). either way, you are embarrassing yourself with your triumphalistic and condescending posts. but then, what diff does it make in the long run? have a nice weekend, all.
The situation in China much more complex than you know and there is a possibility that, just as the above ground “church” infiltrates the underground, so too may the underground Church be active in the above ground.
The other problem is that in situations like this, every move and every word is scrutinized to see what relational aspects they reveal. A slip could reveal a delicately balanced correlation that would lead to the deaths of completely innocent, even ignorant people.
In other words, this is one of those “sly as fox, shrewd as a viper” situations.
And if you are worried not enough blood is being spilled, please rest easy. There are innocent people undergoing unspeakable torture in prisons and “hospitals” as we speak. This has been going for over a half century now. If you are so concerned our rate of martyrdom is slipping, you could go to China to be tortured and killed.
Try Hebei where the Blessed Virgin has appeared. The secret police are especially active there, bulldozing churches and shrines.
It sounds like you are in need of a little entertainment after pretending to be cannon lawyer all day. What could be more entertaining than having your hair pulled out with pliers, be tied to a bed for days on end of starvation, have a tube rammed down your throat and your gut packed so full of raw millet it starts to rip, and your blood injected with laundry detergent. On your days off from torture, you would be forced to sit upright in your cell at night and work under horrible conditions during the day. When your body cannot take anymore and you give up the ghost after all the horrible human experiments have been performed on you, they just crumple you up into an ordinary plastic trash bag and drop you off at your mother’s doorstep.
Oh, and don’t forget your mother will also be a suspect –whether or not she is actually Catholic. So many people are forced to hide their faith that the police would not care what she says. The next time the “social order” is disturbed, she will be rounded up in the night without probable cause, subjected to torture and either be killed or released (after a good raping, of course) as an “example.”
This is happening right now and bishops are the biggest targets. Next on the list are priests, religious, deacons, lay leaders and their friends and families.
If you are a good citizen, you would renounce God and join the Party so you can have the glorious right to vote for the Party and just be content to have the government exercise control over every aspect of your life including forcing your wife to abort her children. That would be living easy in the PRC.
Perhaps you think it would be better for Pope Benedict XVI to march the Swiss Guard into Beijing and take over their government. Don’t tell me you are one of those who think Pope Pius XII did not take a strong enough stance against the Nazis.
As far as your sudden insight that the Holy Spirit no longer guides the Church, that’s called “Protestantism”. If only Luther had patented that idea, he would have died a richer man than he already was. I find it odd that 500 years later you have the same epiphany and have the audacity to call yourself Catholic. Luther’s main impetus for launching his Deformation was horror at the blasphemies uttered about the Eucharist and abuses concerning indulgences.
In other words, righteous spiritual pride. Almost like a sub-Original Sin, its effects are being felt by every Christian five hundred years later.
Let’s recap: your comparison is woefully uninformed and your “solution” is inspired by Satan himself. May I suggest exfoliating your hand with a good oatmeal scrub and holy water? You need to get that thick layer of stupid off the skin before putting them on the keyboard again.
Well Ed..than you for your condescending and egotistic views of my posts. Like most lawyers you find a way around the basic truth. The consecrations were wrong and illegal. To even suggest that they might be valid is to invite confusion to the faithful, as give legitimacy to a COMMUNIST COUNTRY thats wants to use the Church for its own agenda and propoganda. By all reports it seems these “Bishops” were friendly to the government (collaborators?).
As far as being embarrassed. Not a chance. I am willing to stand up for the Church That I love and despise what she is becoming. Our “yes” should be yes and “no” should be no. We continue to act like a sloth when we should be faster on the draw. The faithful see the problems and the clergy seem to want to hide and reflect. The Faithful want to see actions that are decisive. WE dont want to see a strong Holy See..not a Pope waiting on consenus and compromise
Ed, your above link is written clearly and concisely. However, as you recently reminded me: one can’t argue someone out of his own version of reality.
Let’s settle down the temperature on this thread.
Thanks.
Commie bishops make the baby Jesus cry.
:_(
Well, the China did it again!!!!! And this one “approved” by the Holy See? Give me a break!