Christopher West

by Jimmy Akin on May 14, 2009

in Moral Theology

Christopher_west This post is going to be about the current dustup in the blogosphere regarding Christopher West and the recent ABC News piece on him.

Before I get to the controversial stuff, though, let me say a few words about the task Chris is undertaking.

Christopher West has a difficult job. As a chastity speaker, he's got to juggle several things at once:

1) He's got a very sensitive subject
2) On which different audiences have different sensibilities
3) The audience that most needs his message is very hard to reach
4) Part of the reason why they're so hard to reach is that they have a pre-existing stereotype of Christian sexual morality that they think gives them a license to tune out anything a Christian says on the subject
5) To reach this group you have to effectively batter your way past this anti-Christian prejudice and get them to take you seriously while simultaneously
6) Not offending the sensibilities of those who already take Christian sexual morality seriously
7) Some of whom have rigorist views on the topic

That's a tall order. It is humanly possible to juggle seven things at once (SEE HERE), but it's not easy.

Sometimes the task is especially treacherous, such as when being interviewed by the mainstream media, which is going to try to sensationalize every subject it deals with, but especially the subject of sex.

They'll also selectively edit the stuffing out of an interview with you and leave the audience with carefully chosen, out-of-context quotations.

That's what happened to Christopher West in this ABC Nightline piece . . . 

I've been interviewed by the press, and misquoted by it, often enough that when I first watched this piece, I employed the only safe rule when dealing with an MSM story of this nature: Ignore everything that doesn't come out of Chris's mouth. Do not rely on summaries of his position offered by the reporter.

The summaries that reporters use to link quotations are key means by which they distort, sensationalize, and just plain get stuff wrong.

And, as one would expect, the most controversial stuff in the piece is not stuff that Chris says but that the reporter attributes to Chris in a summary.

The statement that Hugh Hefner is one of Chris's "heroes" or "muses," for example, is something the reporter says–and it's exactly the kind of erroneous "observation" that a reporter in search of a sensationalistic angle would make.

Similarly the statement that Hefner and John Paul II, each in their own way, "rescued" sexuality is something that the reporter says, not West.

Even when one eliminates reportorial summaries and observations, though, and just sticks to the quotations of an interview subject, there is a significant risk of out-of-context presentation.

I know that firsthand because back during the priestly sex abuse scandal I was interviewed by a news program that took an answer I gave to a question on one subject and juxtaposed it with video that made it appear that I was commenting on something that I had never even been asked about.

I was livid.

And so I've always got in the back of my mind, "What's the context for the quote I'm seeing? Could this be taken out of context?"

An example of that is West's statement "I love Hugh Hefner." 

Jerkily introduced, without seeing the discussion that led to this statement, after the reporter has just been telling you that Hefner is one of West's heroes, the quotation creates the impression that West endorses Hefner.

But . . . c'mon. I'm guessing that Chris West loves Hefner in the same way that Fundamentalists love Catholics–that is, they love them so much they want them to repent of their lifestyle.

And that's hinted at by what West says next: "I really do. Why? Because I think I understand his ache. I think I understand his longing because I feel it myself. There is this yearning, this ache, this longing we all have for love, for union, for intimacy.&q
uot;

So this is not an endorsement of Hefner and what he's doing. It's compassion toward him, a recognition that there is something broken in Hefner–and all of us–that needs to be addressed.

The language about "feeling his ache" doesn't strike me as the best way to say this. I don't really want to get into Hugh Hefner's head in quite that way (though that's what the language invites me to do). 

And there is a danger of spiritualizing away the sexual urges to which Hefner caters if they are presented as just longings for love, union, and intimacy.

But it's clear that West intends to be expressing a sentiment of Christian love towards a broken individual with whom we all share various forms of brokenness.

The response was awkwardly phrased–as likely would be the case when hit by a reporter with a "What do you think of Hugh Hefner?"-type question (you don't want to feed prejudices by coming off as a stereotypical, venom-filled Christian bigot by saying "He's a son of hell," so it's easy to fall back on unnuanced Christian love-type language)–and I think West would be well advised not to make "I love Hefner"-like statements in interviews in the future since we've seen how easily they can be taken out of context or otherwise misunderstood–but it's clear that West is not proclaiming his membership in the Hugh Hefner fan club.

If you want to see what West has to say about Hefner when he's in control of the message, take a look at this video . . . 

So I think folks in the blogosphere should cut West some slack and remember that he's on the side of the angels.

At the same time, I think West should use this as a learning experience and take the occasion to purify his message so that he can be even more effective in the future.

Just as a general matter, it's important to keep in mind that there is more than one audience that needs to be (basically) comfortable with what's being said. 

Getting through to the people who most need the message of chastity is so difficult that it is easy for chastity speakers to spend so much effort focusing on how to get into that audience's head that not enough attention is paid to the already-convinced crowd and to what will–in the classic Catholic phrase–"offend pious sensibilities."

I think that's at the root of what happened here.

In the TV and YouTube age, the pious crowd is going to see the message being presented to the unpious crowd, and if the sensibilities of the message are too oriented toward the unpious folks then one's relationship with the pious ones ("the Base") will be injured.

Injuring one's relationship with the Base is not a good thing, as our recent former president found out.

The trick, the thing that makes the kind of work West is doing so difficult, is not settling for messages that just please the Base or that just please the worldly target audience. What one has to try to do is find ways of reaching the unchaste without simultaneously alienating the chaste.

That's the challenge.

And it can be done!

You can't please everybody every time, but it is possible to craft messages that will reach the unchaste while not unnecessarily offending pious sensibilities.

In that regard, what I'm about to say isn't specifically applicable to Christopher West. In various points it may or may not apply. It just consists of observations that I've made after listening to the tapes of a lot of different chastity speakers as part of my job.


Often it is possible to avoid unnecessarily offending pious sensibilities simply by leaving out things that you don't really need. 

For example, leaving out invitations to get inside the heads of people as they experience sexual temptation or conjuring uncomfortable imagery in the audience's minds.

Every chastity speaker is aware of the importance of modesty in dress and of modesty in relation to sex in general. Indeed, sexual modesty is a human universal, appearing in one form or another in every culture, even very depraved ones.

There is a parallel that chastity speakers need to observe in modesty of word and image and suggestion (and especially in humor).

It can be tempting, to show the audience that you understand where they're coming from, to talk about your own temptations in too demonstrative a fashion, to dwell on them, and end up oversharing in a way that makes people uncomfortable, causes unnecessary offense, or even constitutes an occasion of sin.

I've heard multiple speakers (not West) do precisely this to show the audience that they understand.

And it's really not necessary. One doesn't need to dwell on the details of one's temptations, their history, or their intensity. 

The audience will be convinced if you simply say with conviction, "Believe me. I know where you're at. I'm subject to temptation, too." And leave it at that.

Another potential source of problems is trying to grab the audience's attention by doing something arresting and unexpected.

Sometimes chastity speakers try to push the envelope by violating the audience's preconceptions of what a chastity speaker should be. 

There is a role for this. Chastity speakers do need to challenge the stereotype that the unchaste will want to impose on them. If they don't do something to neutralize that stereotype, they won't be able to reach the people who need to be reached.

And so some arresting, unexpected, envelope-pushing is to be anticipated and even necessary. 

But it's easy to overdo it or to have it misfire.

I think that's what's happening with West's use of Hugh Hefner. In its present form, I don't think that this part of his message is helpful, even when done on his own terms rather than ABC's.

Watch the second video and notice what he's doing: He's using Hefner as a way of getting around the prudish Puritanical/Victorian Christian stereotype. He presents both Hefner and John Paul II as men who proposed alternatives to the stereotype. He then urges people to accept John Paul's solution rather than Hefner's.

The problem is that he does this in such a way that he makes it sound like John Paul II and Hugh Hefner are basically on the same side, struggling against the evil common enemy of sexual Puritanism. Hefner just has a misguided solution.

And that's false.

West is also overselling the potential for Puritanism. He makes it sound as if our natural inclination as Christians is to see sex as bad and shameful and our bodies as evil, and that's not the case. That's the stereotype of what Christians think, but that's not what they really think. 

I don't know any adult Christians who think that way.

And I think it sells Christian culture short to make it sound as if this is the big danger for Christians. 

It would be more effective to give Christian culture its due and challenge the stereotype by saying something like, "C'mon . . . when has anybody ever told you that your body is shameful or that sex is dirty. Have you ever heard a priest say that from the pulpit? How about a bishop? How about a pope? If anybody has told you this, they weren't speaking for the Church. This is a false stereotype of Christians that the media tries to sell you to justify a loose-sex lifestyle."

Whatever one makes of that way of fighting the stereotype, it's not true that John Paul II and Hugh Hefner are on the same side against the common enemy of Puritanism. If we have to say there are two sides here, John Paul II and Puritanism are on the same side against the evil represented by Hefner. 

It's Puritanism, not Hefner and his pornographic lifestyle, that has the well-meaning but misguided solution to the problem posed by the enemy.

So I think West should at least reframe the way he handles this issue. The stereotype needs to be fought, but not by making Hugh Hefner sound like someone who's on our side but just misguided.

It's also dangerous (as the ABC interview shows) to try to express too much sympathy for the most notorious pornographer in human history. 

It can be so easily misunderstood.

I also wouldn't give too much credit to Hefner's rationalizations of his own actions. Human monsters always accuse other people, or the culture at large, of being to blame. They'll also cast themselves in the role of heroic revolutionary as a mask for baser motives (like money and access to naked, sexually-attractive women).

Another thing West does in an attempt to arrest the audience's attention and provoke thought is to refer to Song of Songs as the "centerfold" of the Bible.

He really should not do that.

That's going to offend pious sensibilities in such a way that it more than neutralizes any good that could conceivably come from using the statement to provoke thought.

Particularly problematic, I think, is the defense of this that is offered on his web site:

The Song of Songs is of great importance to a proper understanding of Christianity.  Indeed, the saints and mystics of the Catholic tradition have written more commentaries on the Song of Songs than any other book in the Bible.  It is in the very center of the Bible for a reason.  Calling it the "centerfold" in Scripture, Christopher intends to redeem the common understanding of the word "centerfold," which is usually associated in popular culture with pornography.  In no way is it meant to compare the sacredness of the Song of Songs with the distortions of pornography.

I don't see how to defend this.

Song of Songs is not "of great importance to a proper understanding of Christianity." 

It is of very limited importance, as illustrated by the fact that it is one of the Old Testament books that is not quoted in the New Testament, that the readings of the liturgy only contain one reference to it–seven verses that appear as an optional reading–and by the fact that throughout Christian history more attention has been paid to the spiritual sense of the text (i.e., allegorizing it into a treatise about Christ and his Church) than its literal sense (Hebrew love poetry).

It is almost certainly untrue that the saints and mystics of the Catholic tradition have written more commentaries on the Song of Songs than any other book in the Bible. More than Genesis? More than Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John?

At the very least, this kind of jaw-dropping statement needs some kind of citation to back it up.

The statement that "It is in the very center of the Bible for a reason" is way too glib.

It's not the center book of the Bible if we count by books (that would be Wisdom of Solomon–in the common, contemporary Catholic order of books), and the reason that it's center-ish has nothing to do with its importance for understanding the Christian faith. The books of Scripture are not ordered so that the most important ones are in the center. This is some kind of unfounded cheerleading.

The explanation then says that by "[c]alling it the 'centerfold' in Scripture, Christopher intends to redeem the common understanding of the word 'centerfold' . . ."

You have to admire his moxie. No doubt about that. But there are some windmills that really shouldn't be tilted at.

The chances of Chris being able to change the English language in such a way that the term "centerfold" gets redeemed are vanishingly small, and his time and talents would be far better spent on tasks that have greater chances of success and smaller chances of blowing up in his face.

" . . . which is usually associated in popular culture with pornography."

No.

The term "centerfold" is always associated with pornography in popular culture. 

The statement concludes:

In no way is it meant to compare the sacredness of the Song of Songs with the distortions of pornography.

This can be parsed in more than one way. 


Parsed literally and grammatically, it says that Chris's use of the term "centerfold" is not meant to compare sacredness (which happens to be possessed by the Song of Songs) with distortions (that are possessed by pornography), but if that's how you take it, it's a non sequitur to this discussion.


Nobody would suppose that Chris was positively comparing sacredness in the abstract with sinful distortions. 


Nobody thought he was talking about sacredness properly speaking at all.

People thought he was inappropriately comparing the Song of Songs in the Bible to the centerfold of a Playboy.


And he was.


He was trying, certainly, to do so with antithetic parallelism–that is, to contrast Song of Songs with porn.


But it didn't come across that way.


Referring to Song of Songs as the "centerfold" of the Bible is so offensive to pious sensibilities and so open to misunderstanding that Chris should drop this one and not waste more time defending it.


This one just can't be defended.


It's not worth it trying to redeem this term. It should be dropped, and Chris should issue a statement saying something like, "I was trying to grab people's attention and make them think, but my critics are right on this one. It was dumb. I see that now."


Even if he doesn't, though, let's try to keep a proper perspective on this.


We're talking about a very small part of West's overall message, and his message as a whole is extremely positive.

It may need tweaking (everyone's message does, in one degree or another), but it's fundamentally in the service of good.

West is a man on the side of the angels, and he's an effective speaker who has done a great deal of good. He stands to do much more good in the future, and he should be encouraged in that.

Even the ABC piece, as flawed as it was, should do more good than harm on balance. Despite the Hefner-related flaws and the "centerfold" business, it communicated the ideas that (1) the anti-Christian sex stereotype is wrong, (2) that sex is a good thing, (3) that people should admire and take seriously the Church's teachings on sex, (4) including its teachings on contraception, sex only in marriage, and heterosexual marriage, and (5) it had testimonies from couples and individuals saying how these messages turned their lives and marriages around.
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Chris's critics should be honest enough to admit that the piece nudged more audience members in the right direction than the wrong one.

And they should rejoice in that.

Sure, there were things that went wrong–many of them not in West's control–but he can learn from this experience and help even more people in the future.

That's something we should all hope for.
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BTW, Steve, you provided zero evidence to support your rant. That makes you look more than a little loco.

You stay classy, Steve!
BTW, when calling someone else a MORON, it's not a smart idea to sound like one yourself.

Opp, wrong thread. Meant for the Post-confession feeling thread. Ignore.
The Chicken

Here is what Trent says and it squares with what has been said by Jimmy and some comboxers:
If the roots of Penance are bitter, its fruit is sweet indeed ... It restores us to the grace of God and unites us to Him in the closest friendship. In pious souls who approach this sacrament with devotion, profound peace and tranquillity of conscience together with ineffable joy of soul sometime accompany this reconciliation.” [My emphasis]

Jimmy: your defense of this chap is laughable. I suppose you libs have to stick up for one another, huh? Lest anyone reading this thinks that this was West's first guffaw let me enlighten you a little. This is the guy who said that couples should bless their genitals before engaging in intercourse, that @n@l $ex was technically OK, that a woman's uterus was a type of "tabernacle", etc. Does this guy moonlight with Annie Sprinkle or what? I'm SICK to death of MORONS like West getting a pass from the NeoCatholic Media Complex! ENOUGH ALREADY! The guy should be FIRED! But keep excusing him, Jim-Bo, keep bending reality to get the sheeple to believe that what he said was just a big misunderstanding.
God save the Church!

I just noticed this above. Posted by: Ben | May 14, 2009 4:23:24 PM
Furthermore, the man is an ordained deacon ...
Just to correct the record, Christopher West is not an ordained deacon.
http://www.christopherwest.com/christopherwest_cv....

My understanding of the Theology of the jBody comes from Genesis 3 when Adam told God he hid because he was naked. "Who told you that you were naked? God asked. Original Sin had removed that First Innocence. From this I have deducec that that First Innocence was lost and could never be regained. The danger when we talk about Marriage as a good intended by God is that we do approach it as imperfect beings and this the `Puritans` understand. But the marriage act is still good in the sight of God and when we co-operate with him and conduct ourselves in the way he intended he perfects that which is imperfect in us. There is a danger that we can believe that with an acto of will within marriage we can love our own bodies and regain that First Innocence but this is false. I think this is where the controvesy within the Church lies.

I stumbled across these articles today while reading another Catholic blog. I have heard of Christopher West, but never had a chance to read any of his books or attend his seminars. I have a general idea of what the Theology of the Body is but have never studied it in detail. Now I would really like to know more.
To those who question why West addresses very intimate issues such as what marital acts are permissible and why: I think it's because there are people out there who NEED to know this.
I would really like my husband to hear some of these talks as he has for many years insisted upon practices that I know are wrong, but I have never been able to explain to him in a way that doesn't sound like prudery or fanaticism, WHY they are wrong, so I gave up trying. I cannot bring myself to ask a priest about these things, or what I should do (I worry that just saying no will only drive him to seek gratification elsewhere).
I wonder if West's materials might get through to him in a way I have not been able to do on my own. I am sure there are MANY other Catholic wives, and probably some husbands, in the same boat, whose spouses have sexual histories and tastes that are or have become more worldly than their own, leading to significant conflict.

Hey Jimmy,
That is a great response to Christopher's work and teaching. Of course sex and the magisterium creates a kerfluffle! Upon reading amidst the different vantage points which have come up after Christopher West appeared on Nightline Dr. Janet Smith wrote a really great piece you might want to check out if you haven't already: http://www.headlinebistro.com/en/news/janetsmithre...

PS for example, even though HV has strong wording within it ("The teaching of the Church regarding the proper regulation of birth is a promulgation of the law of God Himself"), it avoided using the wording that would clearly indicate it as infallible and it was introduced at its press conference by the Pope's spokesman as non infallible despite the sentence and he stated so twice and was never contradicted by Paul VI in ensuing weeks or months. These are the things that professional theologians look to. Do you remember Leo X in Ex Surge Domine denouncing Luther's idea that burning at the stake was against the Holy Spirit and Leo X noted Luther's idea as being "against the Catholic Faith" which again is strong wording but it turned out to be the opposite of section 80 of Splendor of the Truth which denounced torture and thus agreed with Luther and not Leo X's strong words.
This is why all these things present problems to long standing theologians.

Masked Chicken
No offense taken. But take this whole thing to a dogmatics prof in a Catholic college near you and show him my post and yours.

P. S. Note from Left Brain to Right Brain:

Is it really worth posting blog comments, since they often reveal either my ignorance or sinfulness?

Reply from my Left Brain Lobe to my Right Brain Lobe:
"Yes, it is...For TMC, I mean."
Don't be so hard on yourself. ;-) :)

Actually, I did, uncharitably, make the comments against Bill Bannon, because I either misread or misremembered or lost my train of thought about what Bill was saying, but, of course, Cat-like, but Chicken-hearted, instead of simply saying I made a mistake, I quickly denied that I mis-wrote and changed the subject to the theologians.
Longest. most convoluted apology you will find on many a blog. Sorry, Bill.
The argument is correct as a refutation against the theologians' positions Bill mentioned and now, suitably chastised, I offer it, thus - or you can ignore it, which ever is most charitable.
The Not-Closely-Reading-and-Shooting-Mouth-Off-too-Early Chicken
P. S. Note from Left Brain to Right Brain:
Is it really worth posting blog comments, since they often reveal either my ignorance or sinfulness?
[Oh, this is a private conversation between my brain lobes - the Right Lobe made me type it, just so I wouldn't forget - you can go back to reading the blog, honest.
Sincerely,
The Left Lobe]

Note: I am not implying that you, Bill Bannon, are making the claim that contraception, like slavery, might be an example of a changeable moral teachings. I am making the comment against the theologians whom you say might hold this position.
The Chicken

Dear Bill Bannon,
You wrote:
Because tradition has been similar on other issues and those issues are now gone. Slavery was supported in Augustine, in Aquinas, in the decretals (or older Church canon law), and then was opposed by Popes but with exceptions that the Popes knew of as existing in the theologians of the Universities and that obtained until 1960 in the "Theologia Moralis" of Iorio in its 5th printing.
Contraception and slavery are not the same in scope, nor do they bear the same mark of historicity. There is some Biblical precedence for slavery or at least the acceptance of slavery when it cannot be avoided. There is no acceptance - none - for contraception. There is also no acceptance in any of the Church Fathers as far as I know. Linking the histories of contraception and slavery reception to imply that the argument about contraception is not settled is simply wrong. In fact, unlike slavery, you will not find, I think, a single Catholic moral theology text prior to Vatican II that lists contraception as an option. In fact, the same year (1930) that the Lambeth Conference allowed contraception in rare instances for the Episcopal Church, Pope Pius XI published Casti Connubii precisely to clarify the situation (in the negative) for Catholics. Before him was Leo XII, who published the encyclical, Arcanum, in 1880 (not specifically on contraception, but on marital principles, in general). I do not think you can name a single Pope who ever held that contraception was not a moral evil.
One difference is that slavery does not, per se, impede a person from reaching heaven, whereas not being conceived (the goal of contraception) does. I do not, in fact, think the issue is open to question. Was not Humanae Vitae written, specifically, to answer those who thought contraception would be accepted by the Church?
The teaching of the Church regarding the proper regulation of birth is a promulgation of the law of God Himself. And yet there is no doubt that to many it will appear not merely difficult but even impossible to observe. Now it is true that like all good things which are outstanding for their nobility and for the benefits which they confer on men, so this law demands from individual men and women, from families and from human society, a resolute purpose and great endurance. Indeed it cannot be observed unless God comes to their help with the grace by which the goodwill of men is sustained and strengthened. [HV 20]
Contraception will never be allowed in the Church and to argue such, either by reference to a false analogy of slavery or by force of theological arguments that have been voided, does not serve the interest of the Church.
I am rarely this blunt, but contraception is one of the great dangers in modern society, in my opinion and those, at least implicitly, of many Popes. Pope Leo XII in 1880 had this to say about the similar (then rare) Protestant allowing of divorce:
The Romans of old are said to have shrunk with horror from the first example of divorce, but ere long all sense of decency was blunted in their soul; the meager restraint of passion died out, and the marriage vow was so often broken that what some writers have affirmed would seem to be true-namely, women used to reckon years not by the change of consuls, but of their husbands. In like manner, at the beginning, Protestants allowed legalized divorces in certain although but few cases, and yet from the affinity of circumstances of like kind, the number of divorces increased to such extent in Germany, America, and elsewhere that all wise thinkers deplored the boundless corruption of morals, and judged the recklessness of the laws to be simply intolerable.
To argue that dissenters may contracept with a clearly formed conscience is simply wrong and was, in my opinion, a misunderstanding of how conscience should be formed by those who put forth the idea.
The Chicken

Dave,
You wrote: "Are they “ex cathedra”? I don’t know. Was he clearly teaching us, his flock, on an issue of faith and morals? Most definitely."
The only two clear examples of ex cathedra (Pope speaking alone infallibly) we have are the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception encyclicals and if you read them you will see a very stylized and exact format of wording that has never been used about this issue at hand.
What did happen after the IC and the Assumption is that the ex cathedra wording was imitated and reduced to a concise form in three parts of Evangelium Vitae when the Pope also spoke infallibly but this time not alone (ex cathedra) but with all the Bishops in agreement remotely by way of poll which is his alternative (besides within a Council) to speaking ex cathedra and still speaking infallibly. In Evangelium Vitae then, John Paul spoke infallibly against abortion, euthanasia, and killing the innocent with a form resembling that of the IC but resulting from getting all Bishops worldwide to agree (virtual agreement since there can always be several holdouts that do block virtual agreement..Aquinas: "reason accounts little as nothing").
On birth control, there is a group who feel it is solved infallibly in the ordinary magisterium as so universally condemned throughout history that it rises to the level of universal ordinary magisterium (which is a third way of infallibility). This group contains the writers Germain Grisez, John C. Ford S.J., Fr. Brian Harrison, and Professor May and other writers. A group who opposed this as being solved in the ordinary magisterium so as to be universal was Fr. Josep Fuchs, Fr. Karl Rahner and Fr. Bernard Haring...then of less authority, Fr. Charles Curran who was decertified to teach Catholic theology for reasons beyond this one issue (he said many NT dictums could not really be reached but were ideals).
While Curran was thus the reprehensible part of the second group, he comes in handy when you are stopped for speeding by a cop. You simply note to the officer that the speed limit is an ideal that cannot be reached by most men howsoever they strive. Let me know how that works in your town.
So what is the status? Talk to theology departments of Catholic colleges near you and ask who is right...Grisez or/ Haring and Fuchs and Rahner. Why would major theologians say it is not yet solved infallibly? Because tradition has been similar on other issues and those issues are now gone. Slavery was supported in Augustine, in Aquinas, in the decretals (or older Church canon law), and then was opposed by Popes but with exceptions that the Popes knew of as existing in the theologians of the Universities and that obtained until 1960 in the "Theologia Moralis" of Iorio in its 5th printing. That is why religious orders had slaves despite the bulls by Popes against slavery which bulls were few when you see that 40 Popes held office during the time period involved and used no interdicts to support their bulls.
Secondly you will only find about 8 Popes if that who wrote more than a sentence on the matter and there were 265 Popes. The most cogent force in the tradition was really the writings of Augustine on the matter.
That is all I'll say. I'd rather that people use the local theology departments of Catholic colleges to has out this area. Dissenters in Washingto DC per Rome had only to sign a statement that the papal position was "authentic Church teaching" which in dogmatic theology terms is less than infallible. And you will note that no Pope sought to punish Karl Rahner nor Fuchs nor Haring on this issue. The reason is that moral theology tomes used in seminaries mainly allow for studious, prayerful and counseled dissent from the non infallible. Most of the dissent against Humanae Vitae may not be prayerful or studious nor counseled....and thus that group may end up with high divorce rates. The group who dissent with prayer, study and counsel may or may not be a smaller group. We should leave this to God so that human ego stays out of this whole fracas.
To follow NFP seems to be a wonderful thing but if the person then proceeds from that to use the issue to judge others in an area where even Popes have not punished others....then all the wonder fades and the demons are pleased that it has become one more divisive hobby within Catholicism.

I've seen some pretty bad fruit come out of West's "unpacking" of JPII's TOB. I've sat and listened to a rather self-important young man justify divorce because the sex-life in the marriage is not the ideal described in TOB. And I really don't think this type of thinking among young TOB devotees is all that uncommon. And when I mentioned that I didn't think JPII meant for his TOB to deny or negate the Church's long-standing teaching regarding the theology of the cross, I was looked at as some type of archaic, pathetic Catholic who is not able to experience the New Enlightenment.
They are taking the ideal and insisting that be the everyday reality. Going to be a lot of broken hearts and souls, given the selfish interpretations young people are coming away with from West's "unpacking".
We don't need to give any other answer to the so-called sexual revolution other than the one that our Lord gave to us, His example from the Holy Cross. Most of this unpacking seems to just lead young people into a very selfish interpretation of what they should expect from marriage.

jennifer w,
"this protestant notion that human beings have an innate tendency to do evil"
We are inclined to sin, since the Fall.
"one is left with the sense that there is no hope to be redeemed or to be transformed through Christ."
Not at all. But each of us must know our weaknesses, and as we say in the act of contrition, we must "avoid the near occasion of sin." We therefore have to exercise prudence in all things which, thanks to concupiscence, could lead one to sin (especially misuse and misunderstanding of things relating to sexuality). I think neither Jimmy Akin nor several other bloggers are being unfair to or judgmental of Mr. West: they are being cautious, and trying to point out important things in spite of the noise.

"Do you think God, knowing our fallen state, would seriously inspire a book for public reading that contains an incitement to impurity?"
Ezechiel 23

How tragic for Christopher that he has become the subject of these attacks. Reading through some of the public analysis of his comments seems to confirm for me how protestant some of our theology has become given the descriptions set out about the definition "concupiscence". While I understand that it is about a selfish human desire, this protestant notion that human beings have an innate tendency to do evil. Surely our desire is for good, and so based on the opinions of prominent Catholics on this, one is left with the sense that there is no hope to be redeemed or to be transformed through Christ. Its also unfortunate that prominent Catholics have had to undergo this public attack. It seems more about one up man ship. Why not discuss these matters out of the public arena, determine what has been misrepresented, and then come out more unified. However, I think there are conservative Catholics who are more interested in self promotion than perhaps giving consideration to the need to present a united voice.

For a couple of analyses of Christopher West's approach as a whole, see these two pieces by David Schindler and Alice von Hildebrand:
http://www.headlinebistro.com/hb/en/news/west_schi...
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15950

Rick said: "Hasn't the traditional theology of the Church explained the moral theology of sexuality clearly? Perhaps, the theology of the body IS a good response to the sexual revolution. But comments like one SDG made are all too common among purveyors of novelty."
Over the course of the centuries, the Church puts herself at the service of all to answer the burning questions of the day. While the ground rules have been in place from the beginning, today's generation questions the very notion: "male and female He made them," which was blindingly obvious before this. Or was it? The definitions of "marriage" and "family" are under attack and intimacy is seen as merely a contact sport (thanks to the ubiquitous contraceptive mentality).
As always with contemporary challenges, theology unfolds according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the previous actions of the Magisterium. This is not novelty, but depth -- mandated by the newer questions.
As for Jimmy's comment that he doesn't know anyone with shameful views of sex and the body, I can easily say I was raised that way and know many who were. (I'm 48 years old.) It's called Jansenism and has a home in many pockets of the Protestant world from which I converted. From the feedback in a recent CW TOB class with many older cradle Catholics, I believe I'm not alone. Don't even get me started on Queen Victoria who was deeply coloured in that sort of thinking, so much so that she protested violently when one of her daughters wanted to breast-feed a child. (Same in my family.)
We can always learn more about sexual morality and the beauty of intimacy -- and suffering (for they are linked). It's all the more interesting to know that the Angelic Doctor was studying the Song of Songs when he had his final vision, on which he commented, "it's all straw." Who knows what he may have seen...?

Thanks, Jimmy, for your attempt to offer a balanced critique of Mr. West. I thought your criticisms of Mr. West's teachings were good, as far as they went.
I understand Mr. West has taken on a challenging task in presenting himself as one who wishes to reach the unreached, without offending the guardians of our treasured Tradition. The formidability of the task notwithstanding, if you can't pull it off without disgracing the doctrinal heritage of our Church, then pull yourself out of that spot, and make room for someone else who potentially can.
I think you are being way too easy on this guy. He is a modern-day Jovinian, but I would be surprised if you could see that. And if he is, think about the implications of that.

Why do some posters, such as Ben, think that Puritans are worse than Hugh Hefner? They are not Catholic, and so, fine, they are heretics. But they are on the side of the angels with respect to the deadly sin of lust, and are standing as devoutly against concupiscence and prurience as any orthodox Christian. That they are heterodox makes their solution wrong-headed, just as Jimmy said in his post, but their wrong-headedness about sex is, as Jimmy says, a consequence of original sin, and the ORIGINAL PROBLEM IS ORIGINAL SIN. A lack of clarity on this point is devastating to any teaching effort, whether it is apologetics, or catechesis.
Hugh's many sins are not merely his promotion of pornography in the public sphere, but also the normalization of deviant lifestyles (such as his "swinging" and decades of well-known public debauchery at his "mansion") and the dragging of all those men, young and old, down with him, into the depths of depravity. It is for the fall of others on our account, that our public figures are accountable, in addition to their own personal sins.
However heretical an ascetic may be, he is neither advocating any sin, nor practicing it himself, nor dragging others down with him. How anyone can casually assign the Puritans to a more base level of depravity than Hugh seems to me to be only possible based on an emotional guttural response, and not only any logical or philosophical grounds whatsoever.
W

+J.M.J+
Heh. BTW, you can delete the earlier double-post above. Sorry about that.
In Jesu et Maria,

"I would have to read the actual quotes in context to see what the Holy Father said; it might be innocuous."

Um. Try to curb your enthusiasm for the Holy Father's vision, Rosemarie. ;-)

+J.M.J+
Hmm, I posted a response but it seems to have disappeared. Hope it doesn't show up again after I post this:
Talks given at Wednesday audiences are not infallible declarations. I would have to read the actual quotes in context to see what the Holy Father said; it might be innocuous. I'm certain, however, that JPII would never have called the SofS the "centerfold" of the Bible.
At any rate, I don't reject the TOB out of hand, I just don't agree with everything its popularizers like Chris West make it out to be. I've noticed that they often add generous portions of their own thoughts, opinions and reflections to the meal.
In Jesu et Maria,

+J.M.J+
Wednesday audiences do not qualify as ex cathedra declarations. I'd have to read the relevant sections in context to comment on them. I'm not 100% opposed to the TOB, just wary now of some of Chris West's interpretations of it and his way of presenting it. It's possible JPII's discussion of those two verses is innocuous; at least I'm certain the Holy Father wouldn't call the SofS a "centerfold"!
In Jesu et Maria,

JPII first gave his teaching on TOB orally as a series of 100+ Wednesday sermons early in his pontificate. SofS 4:9 and 4:12 are specifically expanded upon in the teaching of the TOB. After JPII had delivered his series of sermons they were bound and published by the Vatican. Are they “ex cathedra”? I don’t know. Was he clearly teaching us, his flock, on an issue of faith and morals? Most definitely.
Interestingly, the book that West is holding in the second video of the Jimmy A article, is an exposition of the first part of B16’s encyclical “Deus Caritas Est” in which B16 expounds upon eros and agape. Having read this book, it appears to me that B16 agrees with JPII. In the introduction B16 is quoted saying he “wanted here … at the beginning of his pontificate ... to clarify some essential facts concerning the love which God mysteriously and gratuitously offers man, together with the intrinsic link between that Love and the reality of human love.”
His Peace

No, Bill912. Anytime someone mentions a non-specific personality cult, it means mine. That's how it works. BTW, I'm sorry I haven't mailed out your decoder ring yet: the cult is many, but their moms won't give them the credit cards.

I thought he meant the Jimmy Akin Personality Cult. I even dusted off my secret decoder ring.

"the cult of personality"
Hey! You can't mention the David B. fan club without paying them royalties! FWIW, I start at 10%.

+J.M.J+
If he was making an ex cathedra declaration on a matter of faith or morals, then yes you should definitely believe him. Otherwise, it is technically possible for a pope to err.
Though I guess my first question should be: Where did JPII say that about the SofS? If he did indeed state that, then we would have to look at the exact quote in context and judge the relative authority of the speech or letter in which it appears.
In Jesu et Maria,

“I also know that the oldest Jewish and Christian understanding of the SofS is that it is an allegory of the love between God and His people. If that is so, then it is not intended as some kind of divinely-inspired manual for conjugal relations.”
Correct me if I am wrong, but if a pope of the Roman Catholic church provides teaching whereby he indicates that some of “SofS” is more than just “allegory” but can also be effectively used as a “divinely-inspired manual for conjugal relations” then shouldn’t I believe him?
His Peace

Thanks for the insults, Gruesse. I'm sure that will convince a lot of people.

Rick and Gruesse, well said.
SDG, I, not you, will determine when I'll move on regarding Shane's prolixity.

The Theology of the Body, for those who understand, will alienate a new generation of Catholics. BTW, I think JPII was confused on many matters and created a touchy feely manifesto that is in blatant contradiction to the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages. But this will not bother American Catholics who are more attracted to the cult of personality than the inerrancy of dogma.

+J.M.J+
>>>Upon reading an article earlier this week in which Dr. Alice V presented a negative response to West about the ABC interview, I perceived that she did not actually know what the teaching of the Theology of the Body contains. In this excerpt from Rosemarie I get the same feeling.
I know the basics of the Theology of the Body, but that doesn't mean I agree with everyone who teaches their own version of it. I also know that the oldest Jewish and Christian understanding of the SofS is that it is an allegory of the love between God and His people. If that is so, then it is not intended as some kind of divinely-inspired manual for conjugal relations.
In Jesu et Maria,

Just-Me writes:
"But West has gone to great lengths to define the word "Puritanism" as he uses it in his lectures and writings. He equates it with Manicheanism, exactly as I have said. In this context or in the context of the definition that you have provided, Puritanism remains an evil which sees the human body only as a source of sin. It could also be a form of Angelism. The fact remains this is a heresy every bit as evil and every bit as distorted as Hefner's hedonism. If either are followed at the expense of the truth, they will lead to Hell."
If he is going to use the word ("Puritanism") in an interview with the media, which will be broadcast to a wide audience that will not be familiar with his lectures and writings, then he has to define it for them or use some other word. Again, I agree that Puritanism is unhealthy but it cannot be compared with hedonism. The former is an unhealthy way of combating sin while the latter is a celebration of sin. Puritanism might lead to hell indirectly (one rebels against Puritan austerity and falls into sin), while hedonism leads directly there. I don't see how they are remotely comparable.

Rick,
Please consider that those purveyors of novelty may include George Weigel. JP-II addressed many areas in TOB. The "sexual revolution" in our society may only be one fruit of our times - albeit an obvious one. The effort to destroy Christian Marriage and the family may be a more important concern.
The development of Theology in the Church is done in Church Time. The TOB was a reaction to what JP-II had seen and experienced in the cultures and nations of his lifetime. The philosophical basis for these cultures had developed over the last two centuries. Catholic Social Teaching has warned against the beliefs and actions of nations based on these philosophies for at least those two centuries. The offspring of those philosophies are still with us and very active in our own culture(s) today.
These theories of society are a perversion or warping of the Catholic teaching that we are members of the Body of Christ. All of them subvert the just needs of the individual to the "rights of the society". They call the individual by many names. Comrade, Citizen of the Fatherland and Consumer are just a few of the names. In all cases the nation or culture teaches that the needs of the society outweigh the needs of the individual. The society becomes the greatest good. Almost by definition they are antithetical to individual faith as the society takes the place of God. Belief in anything greater than the society is cause for persecution. Another description for these societies is "Godless ism's". Even without persecutions, the life of any individual is willingly/wantonly sacrificed for some "greater good."
JP-II saw the results of the beliefs and actions of two nations based on these "godless ism's" in his lifetime. He saw their disregard for individual lives. He also saw that the offspring of the ideas and actions of those nations and societies would carry over into our time and our culture.
IMO with the grace of God and through our actions, TOB will have a counter effect to those views.
In order for TOB to reach the society as a whole it will require BOTH the development of sound Theological understanding AND a popularizing Catechetical approach. Remember that the most subtle of creatures (the serpent or the father of lies) will attempt to obstruct these teachings. Both the Theology and Catechesis will be perverted where possible, subverted otherwise or obstructed as a last resort.
We must not fall prey to a cultural tendency to want immediate perfection in everything. God is not finished with us. This includes Theologians and Catechists. We are all imperfect. We must remember that the just man falls many times. This does not say anything about the times he is pushed down or his words are twisted!
I hope that this only echoes the sage words of Mr. Akin.

“Now, one can infer from the use of a marital allegory in the book that marital relations must be a good thing as God intended them. However, that does not mean that one should read the book to "gain a better understanding of the goodness of sex," or search it for biblical justifications for certain acts between married couples. That's not its purpose.”
As one who has used the Theology of the Body as conceived by John Paul II and as presented by Christopher West as a guide over many years to become “a man on the side of the angels”, I suspect that our late pope did, among other things, specifically read the bible to gain a better understanding of the goodness of sex. It is specifically by mining ever deeper into the meaning of words such as “my sister, my bride” and “a garden enclosed” that John Paul II teaches us how to be fruitful and multiply as God would have us do so. His teachings are very detailed and can be shocking to some as the post by Jimmy Akin demonstrates.
Upon reading an article earlier this week in which Dr. Alice V presented a negative response to West about the ABC interview, I perceived that she did not actually know what the teaching of the Theology of the Body contains. In this excerpt from Rosemarie I get the same feeling. I do not pretend to be anywhere as educated or enlightened as several of you as evidenced by the many lengthy postings and the glossing over of my eyes, but I do believe that a serious study of John Paul II’s Theology of the Body would help some here.

SDG said: "As I see it, the theology of the body is the Church's necessary response to the sexual revolution."
This is the typical hyperbolic rhetoric I hear all around. Has not the Church dealt with "sexual revolutions" in other places and times without the theology of the body? Hasn't the traditional theology of the Church explained the moral theology of sexuality clearly? Perhaps, the theology of the body IS a good response to the sexual revolution. But comments like one SDG made are all too common among purveyors of novelty.

That's a little like saying that a little poison in your tea isn't all that bad. I intend on responding to the posts directed at me, but not here. I don't do "comboxes." I invite anyone interested to come over and join in the conversation here: http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25867
Objections are most welcome as they serve to sharpen the arguments for an upcoming critical essay.

What a great post. This is exactly what Catholic bloggers should strive to do: carefully and critically analyze items of interest from a Catholic perspective to see both what is good and what is bad, with an emphasis on the good since, of course, God is on the side of good and we are supposed to cling to what is God and think about it.

Jimmy goes to great lengths in his piece to make it clear that Mr. West is doing good, important work and is "on the side of the angels".
As SDG points out above, this does not place Mr. West above criticism in every aspect of his work. In fact, it is likely *because* so many think highly of his work in general that they think it a shame that, in this case, he has left himself (and the teaching of the Church) open to distortion and ridicule unnecessarily.

GC,
I'm all for trying to make people think. In that connection, there's nothing wrong with your question, and I'm happy to answer it. I doubt though that you were trying to make people think with the language I objected to. I appreciate that you are a work in progress; I hope my comments are helpful in that process.
My answer to your question is yes, he does. As I see it, the theology of the body is the Church's necessary response to the sexual revolution. John Paul II made an astonishing contribution to the Church's dialogue with the wider culture in this respect, but his contribution was at a high level, and needs popularizers to unpack and bring his insights to the masses.
Chris West does this, and I think on the whole he does it well. Fundamentally, he's a good egg, and he's doing good work. That doesn't put him above or beyond constructive criticism by any means, but constructive criticism should begin by recognizing the good work being done. Those whose take on West is limited to fault-finding may have some valid points to make, but they create new problems even as they point others out.
Jimmy's take above is, I think, just about pitch-perfect. West would be well advised to benefit from Jimmy's insight. And West's critics would be well advised to learn from Jimmy's method.

I must say Jimmy, I found your blog on this subject to be the best one I have read so far.
I wish more people would have your insight and charity.

SDG,
I would hope it would make you think. You and others are missing the forest for the trees. Answer the above question:
Does what Christopher West teach bring people closer to God,Jesus, the Church, desire for the Eucharist, Confession and their spouse?
I apologize if I have offended you but the question remains. I am a firemen who is a work in progress. I come from the rougher side of life. This man helped me out of darkness into the light. I have read enough of the attacks on him all over from the intellectuals. Look at the fruit that his ministry bears.
Answer the question...

I have followed Christopher West's work for a while. Here is one comment:
I have been uncomfortable with the general tenor of the "new Evangelization" approach that tries to use new theological/philosophical idioms to express traditional Catholic truths. While I sympathize with the endeavor to present the traditional teachings of the Church in a way that will allow the uncatechized to "buy in," I think that all too often this approach leads people astray by failing to make key distinctions. Anyone who has read theology or philosophy knows the importance of distinctions to the endeavor.
John Paul II was a philosopher and theologian. That does not mean that his private theological writings were the most lucid explanations of Catholic theology. As an academic, JPII engaged certain philosophical and theological debates within the academy. West and other JPII cheerleaders have taken everything the man has said and elevated it to some new, sublime approach to Catholic teaching. I have a problem with this; not the least that it trivializes the real academic debates JPII engaged in.
JPII wrote much of his work to address specific philosophical controversies. His answers may or may not be convincing. As a layman, I lack the academic credentials to judge this. What I do know is that Holy Mother Church has laid out Her teachings in Catechisms and offical documents for me. Instead of chasing down the latest novel approach, perhaps time should be spent on passing on the traditions of the Church in the traditional formulas. It seems that by continually chasing after novelty as the next magic key that will unlock the door to the unconverted, we risk losing the richness of our traditional theological expressions. I think that this has been the case in the last 50 years.

An Appeal:
Before posting, please consider
(a) what it is you want to say
(b) whether what you have to say is appropriate, on-topic and (likely to be) helpful
(c) whether it advances the discussion and adds to what has already been said
(d) how to say it in a way that is at least polite and respectful, if not (stretch goal!) charitable.
Dissent and argument is fair game. Rudeness is not.
Thanks for your cooperation.

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