The Moral Use of Nukes

by Jimmy Akin

in Moral Theology

Moon I was a bit surprised that some commenters on the recent Harry Truman was a war criminal post thought that I was being vague in some of the things I said. I think a careful reading of the post would take care of the confusion, but I'm also aware that sometimes things need to be explained in more than one way for perfect clarity, so I'm happy to oblige.

In this post let me deal with the issue of the moral use of nukes. 

First, let's look at something the Catechism says:

2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation." A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons – especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons – to commit such crimes.

This passage specifically has in mind the kind of actions that the U.S. committed in bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Those events are specifically what informs this paragraph.

While this is true, I do think that there are situations in which the moral use of nuclear weapons is morally legitimate, even if it means that a city is destroyed as a result. Hiroshima and Nagasaki
weren't such cases, but I can imagine scenarios in which this obtains.

How would I square that with the above passage from the Catechism?

They key, I think, is the phrase "indiscriminate destruction." So far as I can tell, this means one of two things.

First, it may refer to an indiscriminate intent on the part of those causing the destruction.That is, those causing the destruction intend to kill everybody in the city or area indiscriminately. They want everybody to die. Everybody is the target. In other words, on the level of intent they do not discriminate between combatants and noncombatants. That's why the destruction is indiscriminate.

In contrast to this there is the attitude of only intending the death of combatants. In this case it is combatants who are the targets, even though it may beforeseen that noncombatants will also die as collateral damage. 

If we take this down from the level of destroying a city or a vast area to just a particular building, the difference in intent will be clear: There is a fundamental difference in intent between a person who wants to destroy a building so that everyone in it dies, combatant or not, and a person who wants to destroy a building in order to take out the combatants in it, even though noncombatants may also die.

In the one case the target is everybody in the building. In the other it is the combatants in the building.

This kind of analysis is what allows the moral legitimacy of bombing combat-related targets in wartime even knowing that a certain number of civilians will die also. The point is: You're not trying to kill the civilians.

How much collateral damage can be tolerated in a particular case will depend on the value of the military target that is being taken out. If the military target is a single, lonely private then less collateral damage can be tolerated than if it's the whole leadership of the opposing war machine.

In any event, on this reading of the text, trying to take out a military target with tolerable collateral damage would not constitute indiscriminate destruction because those carrying out the destruction do discriminate between combatants and noncombatants.

But there is another way in which the phrase can also be taken. Instead of referring to the level of intent, it might refer to the level of result. In this case "indiscriminate destruction" would refer to the killing of everybody in a city or area. Period.

A consequence of this interpretation would be that one could never destroy a city or a vast area as a matter of principle. It would be intrinsically evil to do so.

But this seems wrong because at this point we are dealing with matters of scale. What makes something a city rather than a village or a hamlet or just a shack? The number of people. (Not the buildings; the buildings are not in focus.) 

But if some collateral damage is tolerable–ever–(e.g., you can blow up a shack containing a terrorist mastermind and his chief lieutenants even though there is a single civilian in there, too)–then reason indicates that a greater degree of collateral damage will be tolerable if the target to be taken out is more valuable. 

If some degree of collateral damage is tolerable when the military target has one value then a greater degree of collateral damage will be tolerable when the military target has even greater value. In other words, the amount of collateral damage that can be tolerable is proportionate to the value of the target to be destroyed.

If this kind of situation obtains then it does not seem reasonable to say that, at some arbitrary level, the amount of collateral damage is such that the act suddenly becomes intrinsically immoral. Anyone advocating such a theory would need to say what this level is and why a mere increase in magnitude–leaving everything else the same–makes the act intrinsically evil regardless of the military value of the target. 

Why is a collateral damage amount of X potentially justifiable whereas a collateral damage amount of X+1 is all of a sudden intrinsically unjustifiable?

This being the case, it would seem possible to construct scenarios in which there is a sufficiently high value target to justify the destruction of a whole city, and we will look at such a scenario in a moment.

I therefore would say that the passage from the Catechism and Vatican II that refers to "indiscriminate destruction" either should be taken as referring to an indiscriminate intent (i.e., an intent that does not discriminate between targets; it just wants to kill everybody) or, if it refers to indiscriminate results (i.e., everybody dies, regardless of combatant status) then the passage is simply not envisioning the kind of scenario I am about to postulate.

The latter wouldn't be surprising since the Catechism and Vatican II are pastoral documents that are meant to present Catholic principles in a pastoral manner and they are not always phrased in a rigorously technical fashion designed to cover all imaginable scenarios.

Like the following one (which I am very sure the fathers of Vatican II did not have in mind).

Suppose the following . . . 

1) We have colonized Luna (or "the Moon," as everyone who lives there calls it) and have set up a city in the Sea of Tranquility consisting of five million people. We'll call it Sea of Tranquility City.

2) There is an evil alien race known as the Zergamoids. They are really evil. Even their name sounds evil (in a cheesy, 1930s-sci-fi way).

3) The Zergamoids have dropped a planetkiller in the middle of Sea of Tranquility City. This particular planetkiller converts zero point energy into gamma rays and, if activated, it will irradiate the entire surface of Earth with as much radiation as a moderately-nearby gamma-ray burster, totally killing all life.

4) There is a Zergamoid ship in orbit around Mars, and it sent the activation code to the planetkiller ten minutes ago.

iv>
5) We have no way to stop the planetkiller from receiving this transmission and, since Mars is at this hypothetical time only twenty light minutes from Earth (approximately on the other side of the Sun from Earth), we've got ten minutes until the go-code activates the planetkiller.

6) This is far too little time to evacuate either Earth or Sea of Tranquility City.

7) The planetkiller is sufficiently resistant to damage that the only way to take it out is to use a nuke sufficiently powerful to not only destroy the machine but also destroy Sea of Tranquility City.

In these circumstances, it would be morally legitimate to nuke the planetkiller even though it would mean that Sea of Tranquility City, with its five million inhabitants, would also be destroyed.

Therefore, there are at least hypothetical situations in which the use of nukes in urban areas is morally legitimate.

In such cases you aren't targeting the civilian population. You're targeting something else–a military target (in this case, a planetkiller) that has sufficient value to make the huge foreseen collateral damage tolerable.

Now, I can see some hands going up in the audience, and I can hear the objection being formulated: "But wait! Nothing like this is likely to happen in real life . . . anytime soon."

Quite true.

But the point of a thought experiment is to propose a test case which is clear, regardless of how probable it is. While this situation is quite unlikely to happen any time in the foreseeable future, it does reveal the moral principles needed to show that in some imaginable situations the use of nuclear weapons in urban areas is morally permissible.

That's not to say that we're at all likely to encounter such a situation, or that we ever have or even ever will, but it is to show that such use can be legitimate in a specific kind of situation.

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"Why is a collateral damage amount of X potentially justifiable whereas a collateral damage amount of X+1 is all of a sudden intrinsically unjustifiable?"
When all other circumstances such as victim's wealth are held constant, why is a theft value of X materially a venial sin whereas a theft value of X+1 is all of a sudden materially a grave sin?
Follow your logic and your heart to Reformed Christianity.

Jimmy, I'm very much hoping you WILL post some more thoughts on torture in the near future.
One thing I notice from you that can't be said about very many in the debate is that you seem to be able to be careful and respectful toward the issues and the PEOPLE involved, and also respected BY most of them.
What we really desperately NEED on this issues is a prinicipled discussion among Catholics on this issue.
A DISCUSSION not a fight.

Soldiers don't get C-rations out of nothing, someone has to grow the beans.
They also don't get fuel, armaments and funding out of nothing. So by that logic Houston (fuel refining), Dayton OH (steel mfg) and Los Angeles and New York (war bonds financing, propaganda) would have been as legitimate targets as Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In 1945, the US was involved in nearly as total a war effort as the Japanese - agriculture, manufacturing and even entertainment - were geared toward the war effort. So, there were no innocent American civilians, I suppose?

I have removed the offending post(s) you refer to.

Thanks.
...Let's avoid language like "jackass."

Fair enough. For what it's worth, I made sure that the word wasn't listed as vulgar on the dictionary.
Please don't forget that diligence regarding pest control on the blog is never great enough...

MAM: Let's avoid language like "jackass."
I have removed the offending post(s) you refer to.

Joseph D'Hippolito
Haven't you been banned already, jackass? If so, why don't you beat it?

And I just saw (again) Akin's headline for the entry. I in no way mean to imply Akin is being simplistic, I was just trying to distinguish between an act and the person that commits the act.

I think that is an important distinction that can sometimes get lost -- doing a bad/sinful thing does not automatically make one a bad/sinful person. The act itself can always be wrong, but how we judge the person as a whole needs to take into account a lot more than just that one act in isolation.
In other words, I think I agree that bombing the cities was a war crime, but I do not simplistically judge Truman a war criminal.

The other problem that we run into with this discussion is that if we are simply basing the A-Bomb's moral acceptability on the fact that it ultimately prevented more civilian deaths, then Truman should have dropped a couple on Moscow when he got done with Japan, right? I mean, even though we weren't "at war" with the Soviets, we could have justified it by theorizing that eventually we would be, and it was certainly worth the civilian lives to keep the Soviets from getting the A-Bomb in their own arsenal.
I've really done a 180 on this since Akin made his first post. I think that, objectively, nuking Hiroshima/Nagasaki was wrong. But I don't believe Truman is personally guilty of being a "war criminal", given the extenuating circumstances of his life, his position, and the events leading up to it.

This has been a very fascinating debate.
Although I am of the firm belief that Truman was no war criminal, I can see how the action of using a nuclear weapon on a major city is objectively evil.
Allow the following scenario:
We can cure cancer and save millions of lives if we just do a little embryonic stem cell testing over here... Let's say Obama does this and a cure is found. Decades later, the living look back and say, "Obama saved the world from cancer - think of how many would have died if he hadn't flooded embryonic stem cell researchers with government money!"
Does that in any way make the destruction of human life acceptable to achieve this end? Are we better off as a human race? Most of us Catholics would agree that it was achieved by evil means, and many would very easily label Barack Obama an evil man... so what's the difference between a hypothetical cure for cancer found by Obama through the destruction of innocent like, and Truman "curing" the planet of WW II by implementing a weapon that has no choice but to eliminate innocent lives? Leave the personal culpability/ignorance issue out of it. What's the substantive difference?

Joseph,
To be fair about the last comment, what is right is what is right always, and what is wrong is what is wrong always.
Though, as you excellently observe, Truman would likely not be held responsible for his actions (though we never know a person's conscience), what he did would still be wrong.
It's not like church documents change what is moral or immoral when they are issued. That would be an odd moral framework, indeed.

SDG,
I enjoy and appreciate your comments, and would like to answer your question:
I asked: Is it permissible for a Catholic to reject double effect?
Your answer (effectively): Not if that Catholic accepts consequentialism, or something equivalent.

That's the real issue, in case you hadn't noticed.
SDG, here are the real issues pertaining to this discussion:
1. Truman was not Catholic, so he would not be morally required to follow Catholic teaching on anything.
2. If Truman were Catholic, then he would be accountable only for what Catholic teaching said during his lifetime, not in documents made decades later.
Akin tries to apply Catholic teaching ex post facto to somebody who was not obliged to follow it in the first place! As a result, Akin engages in character assassination -- and hides behind Church "teaching to do it!

Dear Ben,
You wrote:
If all roads look sinful to you, what do you do?
This condition in moral theology is called a perplexed conscience. There is a lengthy discussion on it, here [warning, not a Catholic site, but the principles are borrowed from Catholic moral theology]. The author states, in the discussion on how ignorance affects conscience:
Normally we should find it difficult to accept a position that makes it necessary for a man to be in the wrong, whatever he does. Where a man is thus "perplexed", i.e. convinced that either of two actions, one of which he must do, is wrong, we generally say that in these circumstances one of the two actions is in fact right, or else that he who chooses what he believes to be the less of the two evils is not to be blamed. ...[Emphasis, mine]
Yet even here it is recognised that exceptions are possible. St. Alphonsus, in discussing the matter (Lib. I, Tract n, cap. 4, sub. i, no. 171), quotes Gerson as saying that on occasion there may be invincible ignorance of even the primary principles of the natural law, as when someone is convinced that he ought to tell a lie in order to save his friend's life. And he gives his own opinion in these words, "I have never been able to understand how a man sins, when, after taking all proper steps to inform himself, he still labours under invincible ignorance" (no. 173). He therefore recognizes, it would seem, that, even after long investigation and reflection, a man might arrive at and hold an opinion about the morality of an action that is at variance with the truth. When this happens, the ignorance is invincible, and that not only when there is ignorance that there is any other point of view, as in the cases imagined by St. Thomas, but also in the full face of all the arguments; and face obedience to conscience then merits no blame.
The question, then, it would seem, is how invincibly ignorant was Truman? This, I have no idea and I suspect no one else does, either.
The Chicken

Just a couple of thoughts:
1. I was just reading today that Japan had decentralized their war machine into the suburbs and residential areas. That was the reason for the incendiary bombing of Japan.
2. It would seem to me that the comparison of 220,000 lives vs 10 million lives lost (or even 1 million civilian) would make the use of nuclear weapons "morally legitimate" in the face of "huge foreseen collateral damage". I think that Jimmy's thought experiment proves the correctness of Harry Truman's decision.
3. One last thought, What if Harry Truman had not made the decision to use nuclear weapons? Somebody play that next 20 years out in their mind. Mankind has been utterly unable to go twenty years without going to war through out history, and in the twenty years after the end of WWII we had plenty of limited wars. Without the experience of Hiroshima and Nagasaki somebody surely would have tried to used them to gain military advantage in some war. Then with time for all sides to have built up their arsenals what would have been the result?
I don't claim to be able to see alternate futures but surely God in his mercy gave us an example of the future of nuclear weapons and then gave us a moment to evaluate their enormous power.
I for one am thankful that Harry Truman had the guts to make the difficult decision and he seems to me to be the last of our real heroes definitely not a "War Criminal"
Seems to me that all these people who can't tell the difference between a President making a terribly difficult decision and a Terrorist attacking innocents is the real reason America is in trouble and is headed down the wrong road.

Besides, SDG. why are you defending what Akin wrote? Why can't Akin do it himself on these threads?

Wrong again. Jimmy does cite "historical context and facts on the ground"...
Really? Where? Show them to me.
but the relevant facts do not include the ones you cite.
Which means that Akin's whole thesis is irrelevant because those facts played a fundamental role in Pres. Truman's decision-making. Akin is conveniently ignoring unpleaseant facts that do not jibe with his thesis.
The key historical point is that "entire cities were targeted to produce the greatest psychological effect on the Japanese and these cities included innocent civilians who were part of the target."
These cities also were places with military factories and other important infrastructure designed to wage war. How would you wage the war, SDG, given that diplomatic alternatives were exhausted as of Dec. 7, 1941?
That is the key point because if it is true, it follows that the "historical context and facts on the ground" that you demand to see considered are in fact irrelevant given the teaching of EV and the CCC.
No scale of casualties and no dearth of realistic alternatives can justify targeting entire cities for psychological effect where the cities include innocent civilians as part of the target. None. It is irrelevant.
Thenn EV and the CCC are irrelevant because they do not provide realistic, practical, applicable moral guidelines when leaders are faced with unsavory decisions. They are nothing but esoteric gibberish. The comment threads on this subject are all the proof I need, because the people defending them have to rely on "thought experiments" and other hypotheticals, not on historical analysis. Anyone offering such analysis immediately gets disregarded (as you did when you called the facts I submitted, "irrelevant."
You, however, disagree with this, since as previously established you believe that achieving victory in war "outweighs any other considerations."
Typically, you misrepresent my words. I said that, as commander-in-chief, Pres. Truman's moral responsibility to protect the troops under his command while pursuing victory (or, for that matter, facing defeat) outweighs any other considerations. The Japanese government had the primary moral responsibility to protect its own citizenry, not Pres. Truman. They failed to do this by 1)pursing a militarist policy knowing that Japan could not win and 2)refusing to surrender even after seeing the devastation wrought in Hiroshima; consequently, the Japanese government had the primary moral responsibility for Nagasaki's destruction!

We should never use the nuke.
I am only speaking to the fact that some have suggested that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not military targets (read no or little military value) which is not the case.
But this key statement by you:
"accepting that the collateral damage of innocent life is less than the innocent life on your side"
puts the entire decision into perspective as the war was fought in terms of 1945 understanding of the situation.
This is why it is good to review and discuss this, but preposterous to call Truman a terrorist or war criminal.

Were they the most attainable strategic targets or were there better targets? Was the intent to take out the military targets in the city, or the city itself?
Had they exhausted all other legitimate means of winning the war?
If yes (a), yes (a), and yes, then maybe the act, as it historically occurred, was not sinful as I understand Akin arguing it. I think Akin would argue that no, no, and debatable are the true historical answers.

Random Dude,
My grandfather, the best man I have ever known, was a German soldier on the eastern front who was part of the occupational force in Ukraine. I thank God for preserving him, he was one of a small fraction of his unit to return, in war and later as a prisoner of war so I could know the influence of such a good and wise man in my life. I would, however, not wish anyone's death for my benefit. He would be disappointed in me if I ever hoped such a horrible thing.

"use the WMD, intending only military targets, accepting that the collateral damage of innocent life is less than the innocent life on your side"
This is exactly what was done. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets.

TimJ, not sure you noticed, but I agreed with you. Here, in this hypothetical, we have to eschew the moral duty to defend the family from the aggressor, since the only way to do so that was known is evil. So what would superficially be evil, that is, shirking one's duty to defend innocent life, could actually be good due to lack of alternatives. We have to trust in the Lord as you say and watch helplessly, if that's what it entails, as love ones die the temporal death.
However, as I alluded to in my last comment on Japan, I think the Ergamoids have another choice: use the WMD, intending only military targets, accepting that the collateral damage of innocent life is less than the innocent life on your side. If this is a morally correct choice, then perhaps doing nothing and accepting genocide of your people would be morally wrong.

I apologize about the sports analogy. It was in very bad taste. I felt it was the lesser of two evils. I had initially thought of suggesting the Japanese changing their national anthem to "You Dropped A Bomb On Me" by The Gap Band.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, Ben. When I called the Theban Legion a bunch of milksops, I was being sarcastic.
"So, you are saying that this non-action, which under normal circumstances would be evil, is actually good due to lack of suitable alternatives."
To which non-action are you referring? I would not call choosing martyrdom rather than sin a "non-action", but a positive, heroic act.
Legitimate defense of the innocent is a duty, but to sin in the act of self-defense (or the defense of one's family or country) is never a duty. If the only way to save my family was to kill some innocent person, or torture some more shady individual, I hope I would have the faith to stick by my principles and let my family die, with the hope we would be reunited in heaven.
If this is only a fool's hope, then I'm a fool, and the Christian faith a sham. If accepting defeat, humiliation and death at the hands of evil men is a sign of moral cowardice, then BOY did I pick the wrong Master to serve.

From what I can tell, Akin is saying that dropping the A-bomb on Japan could have been licit if no other means could have stopped the war, the intent was to take out military targets only, the expected collateral damage of innocent life would not exceed the expected amount of innocent life saved on behalf of the Allied people (as the defensive side, even our troops would have been considered innocent when making this judgment), and the target chosen was the most strategic one attainable. If there would have been further stipulations, I would like to hear them; likewise, if any of the above stipulations are irrelevant.

I remind you that Akin was arguing exclusively from the CCC and through his own logical projections.

Wrong again. Not only did Jimmy cite EV as well as the CCC, EV was his primary source.

He did not take into account the historical context (massive number of American casualties on Iwo Jima and Okinawa, let alone after four years of world war) nor the facts on the ground (the realistic alternatives Truman had to dropping the bombs).

Wrong again. Jimmy does cite "historical context and facts on the ground," but the relevant facts do not include the ones you cite.
The key historical point is that "entire cities were targeted to produce the greatest psychological effect on the Japanese and these cities included innocent civilians who were part of the target."
That is the key point because if it is true, it follows that the "historical context and facts on the ground" that you demand to see considered are in fact irrelevant given the teaching of EV and the CCC.
No scale of casualties and no dearth of realistic alternatives can justify targeting entire cities for psychological effect where the cities include innocent civilians as part of the target. None. It is irrelevant.
You, however, disagree with this, since as previously established you believe that achieving victory in war "outweighs any other considerations."
In the view you have previously defended, the goal of winning justifies any and all actions deemed necessary, even targeting innocents. Nothing is ruled out.
That's the real issue, in case you hadn't noticed.

SDG, I know what "glib" means and that adjective accurately describes Akin's approach in his original post. I remind you that Akin was arguing exclusively from the CCC and through his own logical projections. He did not take into account the historical context (massive number of American casualties on Iwo Jima and Okinawa, let alone after four years of world war) nor the facts on the ground (the realistic alternatives Truman had to dropping the bombs). Had his post taken such things into consideration, then I would have given his position respect, regardless of his conclusion. As it stands, however, he is doing no more than "name calling" and hiding behind the CCC to do it. Neither such behavior nor the "conclusions" derived from it is not worhty of respect.

RANDOM DUDE & VARIOUS OTHER HANDLES:
House rules at this blog stipulate that commenters pick a handle and stick with it.
In part, this is to prevent users from creating an artificial "echo chamber" by posting repeatedly under multiple aliases. It is also to encourage users to have the courage of their convictions and to use their established identity to say whatever they want to say.
Please do not rotate handles. Thank you.

More useful historical background: http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/74048.html. - TL

"At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of some industrial and military significance. A number of military camps were located nearby, including the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was one of several Japanese cities left deliberately untouched by American bombing, allowing a pristine environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb."
From Wiki
There is no doubt that we would have attacked this City at some point. It was a legitimate military target.
What you are really arguing over is weather or not a nuke can be used. Now we know the answer should be no. This does not make Truman a war criminal, or the bombings at that time immoral. In an all out war, all persons cooperating with their government are combantants. Soldiers don't get C-rations out of nothing, someone has to grow the beans.

"If that makes me cruel and heartless... so be it."
Really? Wow.
My Dad was a Navy man, himself, and on a destroyer at the end of the war. I can't say whether he would have seen action in an invasion of Japan or not, but he was a military volunteer and understood the dangers of the position when he signed up.
The women and children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki never signed up for anything.
My Dad was a good man, too, and died of smoking.

"Which of the two morally illicit choices should they choose?"
....The choice between sinful alternatives is always a lie. There is never any situation wherein we are *compelled* to sin at all.
I agree, but as I suggested it was an exercise in hypothetical moral stupidity. If all roads look sinful to you, what do you do? However, it seems you answered that question by saying the active evil of taking direct innocent life indiscriminately is less evil, and therefore preferable than the evil of not defending yourselves and your families which is our sacred duty. So, you are saying that this non-action, which under normal circumstances would be evil, is actually good due to lack of suitable alternatives.

My Papa walked down to City Hall on his 17th birthday (August 5th, 1945) with my Great Grandpa and joined the U.S. Navy. I'm sure he would've ended up in the Pacific if not for the events in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It probably makes me a bad person and, if so, I'll have to answer to God for it but if we had to burn Japan to the ground and kill every last one of them that would be preferable to having one hair harmed on my late grandfather's head. That's not because it would have meant non-existance for me. I haven't lived much of a life. However, my grandfather was the best man I've ever known and anyone whoever met him said the same. I don't care about the empire who embraced the quest for global dominion in the 1940's or the people who supported them. If that makes me cruel and heartless... so be it.

You're welcome, America.

"Which of the two morally illicit choices should they choose?"
The choice between sinful alternatives is always a lie. There is never any situation wherein we are *compelled* to sin at all.
---
"Emperor, we are your soldiers but also the soldiers of the true God. We owe you military service and obedience, but we cannot renounce Him who is our Creator and Master, and also yours even though you reject Him.
In all things which are not against His law, we most willingly obey you, as we have done hitherto. We readily oppose your enemies whoever they are, but we cannot stain our hands with the blood of innocent people. We have taken an oath to God before we took one to you... you cannot place any confidence in our second oath if we violate the other.
You commanded us to execute Christians, behold we are such. We confess God the Father the creator of all things and His Son Jesus Christ, God. We have seen our comrades slain with the sword, we do not weep for them but rather rejoice at their honor. Neither this, nor any other provocation have tempted us to revolt. Behold, we have arms in our hands, but we do not resist, because we would rather die innocent than live by any sin."
Letter to the emperor Maximian from Saint Maurice & the Theban Legion, all 6600 of whom were martyred at Maximian's command.
What a bunch of milksops.

Joseph D'Hippolito: Please don't use words like "glib" if you aren't prepared to use them correctly.
For example, the sentence immediately preceding this one was glib. The moral reasoning underlying the critique of the nuking of Japan, laid out by Jimmy and by me, is not. Whether or not you agree with the conclusion, it is a morally serious argument.
I said I can respect a man who wrestles with the horror of nuking Japan, and, with a knot in his gut, makes the painful decision to embrace that act as a necessary horror. Such a decision may be (as I contend) wrong, but it is not glib.
In the same way, I expect such a man, if he is a morally serious man, to be able to respect a man who wrestles with the horror of attempting to deal with the Pacific war without reliance on acts of terror bombing, and makes the difficult decision that it is a necessary horror.
A man who cannot tell (or, worse, who doesn't care about) the difference between a morally serious argument he disagrees with, and an obscenely glib sports analogy that he agrees with, is either not a morally serious man or has not thought things through carefully enough.
Only you know which of those two scenarios is the case, or perhaps you don't.

Here's a hypothetical delving into the moral licitness of moral stupidity...
A peaceful society of warm, fuzzy people called the Ergamoids found an abandoned space ship had left a copy of JPII's Evangelium Vitae which they took to heart. They lived on the other side of the planet home of the Zergamoids and their evil leadership. Eventually, the cultures came into contact and it was the intent of the Zergamoids to wipe out their planetary brethren. Now, the Ergamoids weapon technology was basically nil, no equivalent to lethal discriminating force whatsoever. However, by odd twist of fate, they had accidentally discovered the a-bomb equivalent for the planet. They knew they had a sacred moral duty to defend themselves from the aggressors who were daily claiming a few lives and who were apparently on the verge of obtaining the same mass destruction technology. The Ergamoids knew that using their mass weapon destruction indiscriminately on the Zergamoids was wrong. But they knew that passively letting the Zergamoids either pick them off or put the finishing touches on their own WMD technology in order to destroy them was also wrong. They had no useful discriminating weapons and nowhere to effectively flee to. Which of the two morally illicit choices should they choose?

It's the glib dismissal of the moral difficulty with a flippant sports analogy that I find obscene and contemptible.
SDG, it's the glib dismissal of any historical context or recognition of the facts on the ground by people who call Pres. Truman a "war criminal" -- especially more than 60 years after the fact, when they neither have to make the decision he did nor be held accountable for it -- that I find obscene and contemptible on this issue.
Hope we're clear now.

Duke: You seem to be having trouble reading. Nobody said Americans who support/ed nuking Japan were disgusting.
I can respect a man who wrestles with the horror of nuking Japan, and, with a knot in his gut, makes the painful decision to embrace that act as a necessary horror. I think he's wrong, but I can respect him.
It's the glib dismissal of the moral difficulty with a flippant sports analogy that I find obscene and contemptible.
Hope we're clear now.

Count me among the 85 percent of "disgusting" Americans in August of 1945 who thought nuking Japan was the right thing to do.

Adam, the "consistent ethic of life" is nonsense. Those who advocate it also advocate the abolition of capital punishment, which God commanded to be used against convicted murderers because capital punishment is the only proportional punishment for murder, in God's eyes. The abolitionist movement is grounded more in the influence of secularism than in Church teaching, JPII notwithstanding.
Besides, just on a common-sense basis, one cannot equate abortion with capital punishment with war, since none of these things are the same. Is war always wrong, as abortion supposedly is in the Church's eyes? When a peacful nation is attacked by an aggressive neighbor -- especially a particularly tyrannical, imperialist one -- is it supposed to just knuckle under or should it resist? If you said "knuckle under," then you would have supported Vichy France, the collaborationist government that worked with the Nazis during WWII.
Finally, Adam, how is "just war" supposed to "work" when the opponent is fanatically genocidal, like the Nazis used to be and the Islamists are today? And if you don't believe the Islamists are fanatically genocidal, then what do you think suicide bombings and beheading of captives represent?

JPII has famously questioned if any war today can be considered just

He did? Source?

Three thoughts:
I'm surprised there can is any argument about this at all from the Catholic perspective. The Catechism, our bishops, and the Pope have consistently questioned modern warfare and nuclear weapons. JPII has famously questioned if any war today can be considered just, let alone a war which uses nuclear weapons
2. I once heard a detailed presentation from a survivor of Hiroshima. If you ever have the opportunity please take it up. I think the personal perspective makes it easier to understand the words "indiscriminate killing."
3. I believe that "collateral damage" is an euphemism for "innocent life," and following the consistent ethic of life theory which Cardinal Bernadin graciously articulated for us I think we would do well to speak of innocent life in regards to nuclear weapons as we do with abortion and other intrinsic evils.

manic mechanic: You missed a logical beat there. The argument being made is not that the IRA's use of advance leaflet warnings proves that we are terrorists, but that our use of them doesn't prove that we aren't.
Sorry for the hit-and-run postings. Been in and out all day.

The IRA has been known to do exactly that.
Oh okay, the IRA is a terrorist group. The IRA did something we did, hence we must also be a terrorist group. Brilliant.

Fine questions SDG. To the first, I think it's a question about semantics. Using a term like "terrorist" is (sadly) subjective. I read it and think about heinous atrocities. Another might look at it and think "to invoke terror" and that can include a burglar, a bully, or a brawny man trying to intimidate. These issues of vernacular come up a lot in discussions. A true lexiconagrapher can answer this question. You know where I side.
Obviously modern day terrorists target military installations and targets. To me, of course this doesn't undress them from the label "terrorist". Terrorists aren't conventional fighters in a war (So are special ops across the world terrorists? Of course not!). It again goes back to an issue of semantics. Anyone can nitpick whatever definition I come up with and render this a perpetual issue. Still, it is a great question and I'm not trying to delegitamize it. But it'll go on forever.
As for the second question ... oh dear! Again, it seems like semantics. Anyway I answer that will most certainly open a can of worms. A jug of worms. A huge tankard of a goblet of a tank of worms. I would need more specificity on the actual grievance and non retaliation to be comfortable answering that.

I wrote the terrorist "solely and deliberately targets innocents".

Eagles Nest, in passing (between Mass and visiting friends), would you therefore say that if terrorists target military targets as well as innocents, they are not terrorists? Also, if the Palestinians have legitimate grievances against the Israelis and the Israeli people do nothing about it, are they truly "innocent"?

I don't believe that rudimentary means alone qualifies you as a terrorist. You can be a terrorist with an airplane as you can be with a roadside IED. I wrote the terrorist "solely and deliberately targets innocents". I might add that they are cowards and expect that most of us would know what that means, and in what context, but in a forum with passionate opinons that comment would be twisted and spun ad nauseum (i.e. A soldier who shots an enemy combatant that isn't looking at him to protect his mate. This isn't cowardice but some might twist it as such). Those are not the only qualifications but they certainly predominate my view of a terrorist.
Now again, some points.
-Truman was aiming for military installations.
-The majority of these innocents supported the military aggressiveness and usurpation of the Japanese and they would grab a gun, sword, torch, or pitchfork should the United States invade. To label them as innocents can be quite fallacious. I believe it is.
-Truman did know innocents would lose their lives. He weeped and mourned at this fact. I hate to play a numbers game with lives but the hard fact is ... more were saved with the bombing than through a ground war. It is the lesser of two extreme evils.
I believe the debate comes down to whether one can look at the act with outright objectivity as you can some of the other acts of the war. I disagree with taking that view. I don't look at the Rape of Nanking, the Nazi death camps, the uprooting of a whole generation of people that predated the decision of the bombing on the same evil sinful stage as the bombing itself. I believe it was the lesser evil of two options to end an even bigger evil. God forgive me if this is wrong but I truly believe that.
SDG, I really look forward to the response about my question of two Catholics disagreeing on an issue like this and whether both are in a state of grace. Thanks!

Since when do terrorists drop leaflets warning of a major bombing attack?
The IRA has been known to do exactly that.

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